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Top Non-CF Discussion "What Does RL Stand For?" Topic #151
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nepentheTue 05-Sep-06 05:59 PM
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#197, "RE: This essey pretty much sums up my current world vie..."


          

I have to admit this is the most ignorant political thing I've read recently. No offense to Odrirg, but it is.

A few comments:

>We cannot fault
>either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no
>provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate
>predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

From the perspective of some Americans this may be true. From the perspective of most people in the Middle East it really isn't, and not without some justification. It's not like America hasn't been involved in military actions in the Middle East during that time that have killed people, including civilians. It's not like weapons provided by Americans haven't done the same.

Now, maybe we did the things we did for reasons that seemed good to us, either just at the time or still. I'll buy that. But, you have to be pretty willfully blind to U.S. history to think that no one in the Middle East could have any rational justification for hating America. That's not to say that terrorist actions are justified, but there are a lot of explanations for the motives that, while not making these actions right, are a lot less silly.

>Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt
>that the predominately Christian population of Germany was
>peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who
>was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went
>along with the administration or you were eliminated. There
>were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for
>political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see
>>http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm )

See this, or look up Godwin\'s Law via the source of your choice.

>No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of
>our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during
>this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of
>those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

You can't protect America by subverting civil rights or the Constitution. You can theoretically protect a piece of land and the people who live in it by doing so, but that place isn't America anymore.

>And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world
>that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of
>religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let
>alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that
>have been productive in one single way that contributes to the
>good of the world.

Yet this essay urges that we transform America into a country that doesn't have these freedoms.

>Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by
>some external military force. Instead, they give their
>freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically
>correct piece.

Or by a government that "just wants to protect" them?

A huge part of what makes America great is its freedom. This essay talks about how peaceful Muslims can't disagree with angry Muslims without being silenced or killed, but then in the next breath urges Americans who disagree with the actions of their government to be silent. That is letting the terrorists win -- letting them take away America's greatness and its culture.

People who disagree with you don't hate America. They don't "want the terrorists to win" -- they just have a different vision of what America is and what's to really be valued about it than you do.

  

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HOT Locked TopicObligatory. Politics. Discuss. n/t [View all] , Eskelian, Thu 31-Aug-06 02:30 AM
Reply Thread locked on account of sprawl., Valguarnera, 13-Sep-06 09:12 AM, #123
Reply This essey pretty much sums up my current world view., Odrirg, 03-Sep-06 01:27 AM, #16
Reply RE: Vitriol:, Valguarnera, 05-Sep-06 03:26 PM, #17
Reply RE: Vitriol:, DurNominator, 05-Sep-06 04:06 PM, #19
Reply Wow... just wow...., Tac, 05-Sep-06 03:57 PM, #18
Reply RE: Wow... just wow...., Valguarnera, 05-Sep-06 04:32 PM, #20
Reply Heh..., Tac, 05-Sep-06 04:37 PM, #21
Reply This is a Fallacious argument., (NOT Pro), 06-Sep-06 06:25 PM, #30
     Reply RE: "Mexican invasion", Valguarnera, 07-Sep-06 02:58 PM, #47
     Reply Why won't they legalize it?, Tac, 07-Sep-06 03:02 PM, #48
     Reply My take:, Valguarnera, 07-Sep-06 03:18 PM, #49
     Reply RE: Why won't they legalize it?, nepenthe, 07-Sep-06 03:27 PM, #50
     Reply RE: Why won't they legalize it?, Eskelian, 07-Sep-06 10:24 PM, #77
          Reply RE: Why won't they legalize it?, Eskelian, 07-Sep-06 10:33 PM, #78
               Reply We'll probably have to kill them all. nt, Aodh, 08-Sep-06 12:26 AM, #80
     Reply RE: Why won't they legalize it?, Isildur, 07-Sep-06 03:41 PM, #52
     Reply You pointed out the danger., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 04:32 PM, #55
     Reply RE: You pointed out the danger., nepenthe, 07-Sep-06 05:47 PM, #64
          Reply Uhm.. Geography., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 06:28 PM, #71
     Reply Don't marginalize the harm of it however., Eskelian, 07-Sep-06 10:18 PM, #76
          Reply RE: Don't marginalize the harm of it however., Muuloc, 08-Sep-06 01:40 AM, #83
               Reply Quick note on that:, Valguarnera, 08-Sep-06 08:55 AM, #84
               Reply RE: Quick note on that:, Eskelian, 08-Sep-06 09:01 AM, #86
               Reply Whoops., Valguarnera, 08-Sep-06 09:38 AM, #89
               Reply According to Darwyn, (NOT Pro), 08-Sep-06 10:16 AM, #94
               Reply Thats absurd., Eskelian, 08-Sep-06 08:55 AM, #85
               Reply RE: Don't marginalize the harm of it however., Isildur, 08-Sep-06 09:45 AM, #91
               Reply Completely rational., (NOT Pro), 08-Sep-06 10:17 AM, #95
               Reply 3.4% of our GNP goes to the military., (NOT Pro), 08-Sep-06 10:13 AM, #93
                    Reply Do you even know what a GNP is?, Valguarnera, 08-Sep-06 12:43 PM, #102
                         Reply Military R&D is 72B I think., (NOT Pro), 08-Sep-06 07:12 PM, #104
                              Reply Eventually, we'll be able to kill everyone! ~, Aodh, 08-Sep-06 09:18 PM, #107
     Reply RE: This is a Fallacious argument., Muuloc, 08-Sep-06 01:34 AM, #82
          Reply Why?, (NOT Pro), 08-Sep-06 10:18 AM, #96
Reply As a 17 year Veteran...., (NOT Pro), 06-Sep-06 06:04 PM, #29
     Reply RE: As a 17 year Veteran...., nepenthe, 06-Sep-06 11:07 PM, #34
     Reply RE: As a 17 year Veteran...., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 01:38 AM, #35
          Reply RE: As a 17 year Veteran...., nepenthe, 07-Sep-06 08:53 AM, #37
               Reply It's worth noting that:, Valguarnera, 07-Sep-06 11:04 AM, #40
                    Reply RE: It's worth noting that:, nepenthe, 07-Sep-06 01:28 PM, #41
                         Reply Question:, Tac, 07-Sep-06 02:02 PM, #42
                         Reply To me this is the equivilant of saying., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 02:09 PM, #44
                              Reply RE: To me this is the equivilant of saying., A2, 07-Sep-06 02:30 PM, #45
                              Reply Who once said it needed to be in a bubble? Anyone?, (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 04:35 PM, #56
                              Reply RE: To me this is the equivilant of saying., Tac, 07-Sep-06 02:59 PM, #46
                              Reply RE: To me this is the equivilant of saying., Isildur, 07-Sep-06 03:34 PM, #51
                              Reply RE: To me this is the equivilant of saying., Tac, 07-Sep-06 03:58 PM, #53
                              Reply The fair tax is a Great idea., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 04:40 PM, #59
                              Reply RE: The fair tax is a Great idea., Isildur, 07-Sep-06 04:58 PM, #62
                                   Reply Heh. nt, Wilhath, 07-Sep-06 06:11 PM, #69
                              Reply RE: To me this is the equivilant of saying., Isildur, 07-Sep-06 04:49 PM, #60
                                   Reply One dose of insanity...., Tac, 07-Sep-06 05:49 PM, #65
                              Reply 30 Million Illegals in 10 years., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 04:39 PM, #58
                                   Reply RE: 30 Million Illegals in 10 years., Isildur, 07-Sep-06 05:08 PM, #63
                                        Reply It grew., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 08:06 PM, #72
                              Reply I think we should stop ALL immigration, (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 04:37 PM, #57
                              Reply So can we deport you?, Tac, 07-Sep-06 05:51 PM, #67
                              Reply RE: I think we should stop ALL immigration, Eskelian, 07-Sep-06 10:00 PM, #75
                                   Reply Where I think a lot of you misunderstand me is here...., (NOT Pro), 08-Sep-06 10:09 AM, #92
                              Reply RE: To me this is the equivilant of saying., Eskelian, 07-Sep-06 09:58 PM, #74
                              Reply RE: To me this is the equivilant of saying., Eshval, 13-Sep-06 12:55 AM, #118
                                   Reply RE: To me this is the equivilant of saying., Valkenar, 13-Sep-06 08:39 AM, #120
                         Reply It's worth noting also that I got seriously ####ed up o..., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 02:05 PM, #43
                              Reply Wait till they slash your benefits. ~ (Blackbird), Aodh, 07-Sep-06 06:26 PM, #70
                                   Reply They keep increasing mine., (NOT Pro), 08-Sep-06 10:19 AM, #97
     Reply A quote..., Barduin, 07-Sep-06 04:02 PM, #54
Reply Patriotism is hilarious, Valkenar, 05-Sep-06 05:29 PM, #22
Reply RE: This essey pretty much sums up my current world vie..., nepenthe, 05-Sep-06 05:59 PM #23
Reply Losing would be allowing OUR government to become like ..., TheLastMohican, 05-Sep-06 08:04 PM, #24
Reply devil's advocate question for the peanut gallery. txt, Isildur, 06-Sep-06 04:08 PM, #25
Reply RE: devil's advocate question for the peanut gallery. t..., Tac, 06-Sep-06 04:56 PM, #26
Reply I wrote out this whole long thing that the forum ate..., Wilhath, 06-Sep-06 05:36 PM, #28
Reply RE: devil's advocate, Valguarnera, 06-Sep-06 05:25 PM, #27
     Reply RE: devil's advocate, (NOT Pro), 06-Sep-06 09:48 PM, #31
     Reply No offense Valg, but Pro will never learn., TheLastMohican, 06-Sep-06 10:36 PM, #32
          Reply Sure he will...., Tac, 06-Sep-06 10:43 PM, #33
          Reply It is a bad topic for this board., (NOT Pro), 07-Sep-06 01:54 AM, #36
               Reply RE: It is a bad topic for this board., Isildur, 07-Sep-06 10:25 AM, #39
               Reply RE: It is a bad topic for this board., Valkenar, 07-Sep-06 04:53 PM, #61
               Reply LAUGH!, (NOT Pro), 08-Sep-06 07:20 PM, #105
               Reply Seek counseling., Valguarnera, 07-Sep-06 05:50 PM, #66
                    Reply *edit*, Wilhath, 07-Sep-06 06:05 PM, #68
     Reply RE: devil's advocate, Isildur, 07-Sep-06 10:20 AM, #38
Reply RE: This essey pretty much sums up my current world vie..., Muuloc, 08-Sep-06 01:30 AM, #81
Reply Vague Topic, Amaranthe, 31-Aug-06 03:39 PM, #3
Reply RE: Vague Topic, Grurk Muouk, 31-Aug-06 03:53 PM, #4
Reply RE: Vague Topic, nepenthe, 31-Aug-06 05:50 PM, #5
Reply RE: Vague Topic, Amaranthe, 31-Aug-06 06:52 PM, #6
Reply RE: Vague Topic, Eskelian, 31-Aug-06 08:08 PM, #8
Reply RE: Vague Topic, Isildur, 01-Sep-06 10:56 AM, #9
     Reply RE: Vague Topic, Eskelian, 01-Sep-06 05:11 PM, #10
     Reply RE: Vague Topic, Isildur, 01-Sep-06 11:54 PM, #11
          Reply RE: Vague Topic, Eskelian, 07-Sep-06 09:50 PM, #73
               Reply RE: Vague Topic, nepenthe, 07-Sep-06 11:04 PM, #79
               Reply Bingo. n/t, Eskelian, 08-Sep-06 09:04 AM, #87
               Reply RE: Vague Topic, Tac, 08-Sep-06 09:15 AM, #88
               Reply RE: Vague Topic, nepenthe, 08-Sep-06 10:49 AM, #99
                    Reply They *are* seperate issues, Tac, 08-Sep-06 11:42 AM, #100
                         Reply RE: They *are* seperate issues, nepenthe, 08-Sep-06 07:28 PM, #106
                              Reply I gotta ask, Minyar, 12-Sep-06 01:37 PM, #108
                                   Reply I've been meaning to respond to this.... (Nepenthe's), Tac, 12-Sep-06 02:43 PM, #109
                                   Reply RE: I've been meaning to respond to this.... (Nepenthe'..., nepenthe, 12-Sep-06 03:48 PM, #111
                                        Reply RE: I've been meaning to respond to this.... (Nepenthe'..., Tac, 12-Sep-06 04:30 PM, #112
                                             Reply RE: I've been meaning to respond to this.... (Nepenthe'..., nepenthe, 12-Sep-06 05:41 PM, #113
                                                  Reply Come on now Nep, Minyar, 12-Sep-06 05:58 PM, #114
                                                       Reply Except:, Valguarnera, 12-Sep-06 08:59 PM, #115
                                                            Reply Two words: Turing Test, Tac, 12-Sep-06 09:19 PM, #116
                                                            Reply RE: Two words: Turing Test, Valguarnera, 12-Sep-06 11:37 PM, #117
                                                            Reply RE: Two words: Turing Test, Tac, 13-Sep-06 08:47 AM, #121
                                                            Reply RE: Two words: Turing Test, Valkenar, 13-Sep-06 09:05 AM, #122
                                   Reply RE: I gotta ask, nepenthe, 12-Sep-06 03:22 PM, #110
               Reply The problem is Choice, Nepenthe, wretchedmongrel, 13-Sep-06 02:43 AM, #119
               Reply RE: Vague Topic, Isildur, 08-Sep-06 09:38 AM, #90
                    Reply RE: Vague Topic, nepenthe, 08-Sep-06 10:40 AM, #98
                         Reply According to wikipedia...., Tac, 08-Sep-06 11:46 AM, #101
                         Reply RE: Vague Topic, Isildur, 08-Sep-06 12:42 PM, #103
     Reply RE: Vague Topic, Amaranthe, 02-Sep-06 11:20 AM, #12
          Reply RE: Vague Topic, Isildur, 02-Sep-06 11:45 AM, #13
               Reply RE: Vague Topic, Amaranthe, 02-Sep-06 02:45 PM, #14
Reply RE: Vague Topic, Eskelian, 31-Aug-06 08:07 PM, #7
Reply From my blog eariler this month:, Grurk Muouk, 31-Aug-06 08:17 AM, #1
     Reply RE: From my blog eariler this month:, Isildur, 31-Aug-06 02:32 PM, #2
          Reply RE: From my blog eariler this month:, Isildur, 02-Sep-06 04:15 PM, #15
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