I love this game. I'd like to see it stick around for a good long time, but the lower play counts are disheartening.

I'd like to use this thread to discuss possible (realistic) ideas that would help draw players back and keep them around and having fun for a long time to come...

Things to keep in mind:

- Minimal coder availability (these ideas would need to not involve an insane amount of coding)

- This is not the place to bash players/staff-- lets keep this discussion positive

- Think about the many CF experiences that left an impact on you as a player and how to possibly recapture that magic in today's CF

Aaaand...Go!

I don't think there's any use in trying to change the game to
recapture those former players who've left for the tenth time
and won't come back for real until X changes exactly how they
want it to.

Everyone who actually left is gone and isn't going to come back,
the better the question is how to retain the players who actually
play and maybe entice the lurkers who aren't just hanging around
to squeeze out diarrhea on the boards once in a while.

So far I think the efforts of the current imms are about the
best answer to that currently available. Just this last week
with Emnon's char challenge I've seen a bunch of names pop up
that I hadn't for years. Let's all take a breath, put in some effort
into that and see how it pans out.

Sent from my Iphone

asd

It is certainly a game that should be "fun" but its tricky since fun isnt fun isnt always fun.

Too many people get caught up in trying to "win" by the numbers and less in trying to "win" by making the game more awesome. Generally that doesn't do well for the collective.

Due to RL my free time is admittedly fleeting. But I still have time to play generally casual games occassionally. So why is it I do not play CF instead of them?

As I posted on the other site, at the end of my time playing CF, I found large portions of CF tedious and ultimately repetitive. I would have moments of fun, but those became increasingly sparse over time, and it took a lot of hours to even get to the point where I had those moments. (For me, I really only enjoy the hero range)

The question became was I willing to put in the investment to hero a char to play in the current environment. The answer became a no. Without a sizable enough playerbase, the flaws of CF became more glaring to me. Getting into a PK with the same pool of 3 enemies literally every night for a month just lost appeal. PVE only gets you so far when you've done a lot of things already.

The appeal of CF, on all levels, be it RP or PK, is a social one which requires a decent society to engage with.

I'm not saying an increased PB is a fix for the root cause for all players, but I think a lot of the reasons people left CF (besides RL constraints) is the game was not as fun and so harder to justify the time commitment for. Who really cares that they can't have 30 edges anymore? What good is even having a char with 30 edges and a set of legendary gear when there is nobody to do anything with? Edges and gear accumulation was never an end game. People didn't hit 25 or 30 edges, do an eq freeze and say, well, I won CF, and delete and start over.

More players = a better environment, which means some of the other flaws of CF are no longer as glaring.

Sure, there are still flaws in CF's design, administration and in certain players' behavior and responses to that behavior (yay looting based meltdowns!). All multi player games have flaws like this though. People have lots of reasons they claim they left, but I think a lot of that comes down to the PB didn't provide enough of an enjoyable environment to remain playing in spite of that player's issues with CF, be it mechanics, Imms or other players. In the balancing act of whether to commit time to CF, there is a line we all have where playerbase/environment provides enough of a positive to act as a counterweight to the negatives we see in CF.

I have no idea what would entice people to roll a char, but I know that when most do, they may not stay for long if they see online users of 0-10. Cause while Thera still exists, the environment does not. New areas, new races, new classes. They don't matter as much. CF already has a pretty well developed and functional foundation. New stuff is nice and all, and I'm not discrediting the work and effort Imms put into them. But CF really is only as fun as its playerbase permits it to be.

The people who want to try new edges but don't want to sacrifice a character for it?

Though given that characters are always at risk of getting an arbitrary punishment for "cheating" that didn't happen, you're having a bigger problem. Who wants to invest in a character you can lose at any moment?

Yeah and there's always the chance that they'll read your skype logs and see your home videos

who wants that to happen

What kind of sick #### reads private chats?

I don't know but, I also don't know what to think of people who hang out in chatrooms that share those kinds of videos

NT

Edges are a trade off and it's odd that you view it as sacrifice of a character if you take a new edge and it does not pan out as you hope. Or that you took one over one you knew you wanted, in which case it's on you anyway.

Deletion is a thing. Con death is a thing. Age death is a thing. RL is a thing. Pwipes happen (rarely). Actually, every character I've ever played I could lose at any moment. In fact, I have lost every one of them no matter what I have invested in them. I'm fine with that. I suppose I could try to Imm, that's about the only way to maybe be permanent.

But I get it, you have issues with the staff and can't help bringing it up. However, the chances of an Imm banning me on a whim are pretty low and I have a touch more faith in people not to be jerks for no reason. But then, I have no issue with the rules of their playground or playing CF within those boundaries.

I get that you'd rather shove the whole problem under a rug. But I would rather potential new players be aware of the crap that awaits them. Especially players from Russia.

I get that violating basic decency is not a big deal for you because it didn't happen to you personally. CF players cultivate egoism after all.

But if people are going to be denied for something they didn't do, it's a problem you cannot deny (no pun intended). And don't tell me about having faith in people. I used to have faith, and where did that lead me?

Kstatida had a russian sex tape that involved him yelling out secret invoke phrases from silent tower and it got leaked to an IMM that didn't fap to the glory but rather told Umiron and now Russians can't play CF?

Thats the pieces I'm able to fill in from these conversations. I think I'm at least 95% right.

Russians are not welcome in CF and never have been.

Please stop with such blatant dishonesty.

where my IP was banned outright because I typed in "Boris" as a placeholder character name? I didn't intend to finish creating that character; I just wanted to see the list of classes avaliable to a wood-elf.

When I brought it up with Umiron, he said "yeah a Boris from Russian IP, I thought it was a troll". He unbanned the IP but I took my lesson: Russian IPs are subject to especial scrutiny and can be banned on a minor suspicion without double-checking.

Whereas a character named Boris was later created from a non-russian IP and was allowed to actually play the game!

At best, we are second-class citizens in your CF. Bye.

Not being shooed away despite your own admission you do not play and that you don't intend to again. Essentially you are being embraced while you hurl #### at the game and its admin.....

I honestly don't know how that makes it seem like you are not welcome?

I don't feel welcome on grounds that people are subject to additional scrutiny based on their location. It's not that I'm being oppressed, but other Russians are.

I would be equally outraged if all the talk was of, oh say, Filipino cheat rings, or Brazilian or whatever.

The truth is most certainly unwelcome here.

Generally anywhere that you can add "cheat ring" to the location is going to get scrutiny. In the majority of the cases, IP is irrelevant until there's something fishy that's being investigated. Until an Immortal has some reason to go looking, most of us don't know or case who's from where. It's when someone has to look into context and history that the idea of your Filipino Cheat Ring comes into play. And yes, if the "insert location" Cheat Ring comes around, they're going to be watched as well. Seems like that's more to do with the "cheat" aspect than the location.

>In the majority of the cases, IP is irrelevant until there's something fishy that's being investigated.
Yeah but once you see something that may seem fishy the Russian IP will be a weighing factor towards guilty.

And most cheat rings are American, yet you don't get the whole of America under scrutiny.

>When I brought it up with Umiron, he said "yeah a Boris from
>Russian IP, I thought it was a troll". He unbanned the IP but
>I took my lesson: Russian IPs are subject to especial scrutiny
>and can be banned on a minor suspicion without
>double-checking.
>
>Whereas a character named Boris was later created from a
>non-russian IP and was allowed to actually play the game!
>
>At best, we are second-class citizens in your CF. Bye.


>he said "yeah a Boris from Russian IP, I thought it was a troll",
>He unbanned the IP but


Let me go roll ching-chong from a Chinese proxy and get back to you
on how the imms are prejudiced against the Chinese.

Sent from my Iphone

One player drops excess gear on Eastern Road.
Another player without any knowledge of the above finds it and picks it up... ROTD!!! Gear transfer! Get a slay for some red-gold gear, discount!

It's usually not enough to lead to ROTD but if both players *also* have Russian IPs it is proof enough that they are guilty.

Everything in that post is literally just you saying you or your
buddies did nothing wrong, ha! How about that Umizoomy? Didn't
see that coming did you?!

The only instance of BS being Matrik, which we're all well aware
of, but he is neither Russian or here throwing a fit about being
persecuted, so how that should convince anyone that Russians are
second class citizens in CF is beyond me.

Sent from my Iphone

The burden of the proof lies with the accuser.

I'm just saying I know they aren't guilty:
* because I know them well enough
* and also because I was there and I saw no cheating

...I guess non-Russians are also sometimes subject to arbitrary punishment. But not for red-gold gear on Eastern.

Internet boards. Ugh. Point to basic decency almost anywhere on these forums lately. Though actually, you are usually civil most of the time, unlike some people, and I do appreciate seeing that. I know Jalim and Rob like to troll you for some reason lately, not that it is ever constructive.

It's fair of you to assume something like that about me on the basis that I played CF? You should know better than that. My whole take on that was that Shaapa was the asshole, not the Imms (if the incident is what I think it was). I have no idea about the actual facts of that situation and I've no interest in rehashing it anyway, because it's not really relevant.

You are right, denials for fictitious reasons are not good. So give me concrete examples where it consistently happens to players, Russian or otherwise. Don't you see the flaw in the logic of saying X happened once = X will always happen again in the future.

You're a grown man, that's a question for you to answer.

1) Rhyaldrin had a necro in Tribunal who one day woke up in RoTD and when he asked why he was told "you know what you did, now we will deny you".

I talked to Rhyaldrin a lot at the time. Sure, he's not known for his great regard for the rules, but that time he was completely clean, and yet they denied him. If he was cheating with that character, I would have known.

2) Kstatida had an assassin emperor who was banned on account of cheating.

The "proof" was some 18 megabytes of Skype logs where he allegedly plotted out-of-game collusion. In reality, the Skype chat contained some (10%) bragging, speculation, log sharing and theorycrafting, and then (90%) talking about politics, economy, climate change, movies, videogames, women, tourism, fishing and whatever else 9 guys can talk about.

Worst "offense" I can find is someone asking "how many heroes online right now" and getting a who list. That is hardly collusion.

3) Matrik. Especially funny given the dude was always an advocate against cheating and would even ask me ahead of time to never tell him who I am playing because he felt it was like a spoiler for a movie or something.

4) Several of my Russian buddies can tell you tales about getting pulled into RoTD over, say, a set of red dragon gear they found on Eastern. Apparently someone else with a Russian IP dropped it.

1) Why would you have known, do you cheat with him? You even say in your defense of him that he is known to be a cheater...

2) Asking who is online and being given a who list to know which character to play via OOC means is certainly something that does not fall within acceptable via the rules (OOC mechanics for IC advantage).

3) Anyone who spends literal hours spamming the mud with nonsense named new chars and newbie channel stuff gets at least a temp ban

4) There are certain automated things that the mud grabs related to IP, for instance multiple chars with the same IP handling the exact same pieces of gear. If Russia only has 1 IP address for the whole nation, then I suppose you could say this is unfair.

I am more than willing to hold a candid discussion about the assorted punishments or the way things were handled, but if this is what you are trying to get someone to claim we did wrong on then I can't help you.

Edit to add: If people would rather have a discussion about things via email, you can also go that route. Either way is fine by me.

I had the same responses, except about the IP stuff on 4, so yeah, I think his justifications as proof of a systemic CF conspiracy against Russian players is flimsy. RotD is often a place where Imms gather information, not just arbitrarily punish at the onset. I've been there once, it was a pleasant experience and the Imm who handled it was nothing but civil. Maybe because I was not abrasive, defensive, or annoyed by the Imm just for pulling me in.

And, is Matrik even Russian? And he admitted his own fault and pretty much agreed with the ban. He acted out of frustration, but he clearly knew his actions would not go unnoticed.

I think the Kstat one is a touch iffy, but the logs existing also speak to the presence of an ongoing communication circle where CF comes in, and Imms do not have perfect information with which to make judgment. So while maybe the punishment of Kstat was harsh, there is a justification, and I have no idea if he's ever taken up his ban with the Imms to get it lifted, or if he even desires to.

I'm not sure what's worse, if it's just Russians who get mistreated, or everyone equally.

I wonder how many of the people that shared a who list on dangeroom got banned for it.

1) I would have known because I talked to him a lot at the time. He would have mentioned being in a perma. Also he said after the deny that he did not know what he was denied for--no reason to lie about that. Also he was never told the rationale for denial, and why would you hide that? Only if you didn't have any rationale.

2) There is no IC advantage, only OOC convenience. You can do the same just by logging in, typing who and quitting if there is nobody to PK. And if it's worthy of a ban, then there's a long list of people you need to ban but you chose to ban Boris. Why him? The only guess that comes to mind is because he is Russian.

3) It was permanent and Matrik was never unbanned despite numerous petitions, but okay whatever let's drop it. Guy's a huge jerk anyway; talks about full-looting all the time.

4) No we don't all have the same IP, but it is fact that some of us got punished for picking up an item found completely randomly lying somewhere.

...

I think we veered a bit off-topic. It's more about how a player is completely unprotected from the whims of the admin.

Unethical methods are another problem. If you were not above delving into logs of my Skype conversation then how can I know you won't do other nefarious things? Like sending slanderous information to my employer? (There has been a precedent of that in CF history.) One can rationalize a lot of stuff with "I'm just combatting possible cheating."

Refusal to make punishments more transparent means you would like to retain the ability to never explain your actions. And when I see some of the Imms' actions as questionable and they refuse to explain them... well that confirms my suspicions.

True. Players are unprotected from the whims of an admin. They also know that going in. Players expect that most of the people who are admins have been vetted and likely would not remain if they abused the players.

I'll pass over the Skype log stuff, I don't have any real knowledge of it. But equating that to unethical methods? So the problem is not being caught possibly cheating, but the manner by which the Imms received the proof of it? Which they did not solicit as far as I know? And which Shaapa did not redact or otherwise limit to only CF related stuff I would assume. But what nefarious things did Imms do with the logs? A few CF bans?

I would say Imms should be accountable to the player that they punished, sure. There is a difference between an Imm not needing to explain the why you are punished to the person receiving the punishment and not needing to explain them to everyone else.

Why do Imms have to answer for their actions to the PB at large though? If you're the subject of the punishment, sure, they should, in the spirit of civility and respect (of course CF players tend to show a tremendous disregard for those on any perceived slight by an Imm or player). Otherwise, who are you to demand such? I don't think of Imms as judges in a court of law, I think of them as referees. They have a rule book, they see something, they make a call. You choose to play the game, you abide by the rules and the decisions of the person tasked with enforcing them.

Not all calls are favorable, and some are downright atrocious. But it's still just a game. Nobody forces you to play it. But if you choose to, it's not going to be on the terms you dictate. Anyway, we may just have fundamentally different approaches to how we see things, but I can at least respect your views on them, even if I disagree with them. Maybe you just expect more from the admin staff than I do.

I guess I expect more from the staff than you do.

I expect that a referee must explain their decision, to all for whom the situation is relevant, which at the very least means the punished person. Otherwise their decision has an air of arbitrariness even if it was justified (and in the listed examples it wasn't).

I also agree that by playing the game we automatically give consent to whatever shenanigans may happen at the whim of the gamemaster. However, if they prove to be a ####ty gamemaster we reserve the right to call them out on it repeatedly until the end of time.

And playing the game does not mean consent to having my OUT OF GAME correspondence viewed. No matter how mundane it may have been. It is a blatant violation of trust and they should be ashamed of that.

Legit didn’t know about Kstatida chat logs. Also didn’t know about Matrik being banned. Number one when we talked he didn’t share active info with me. Number two he stopped speaking to me entirely because he thought I had said something to someone else that he had told me about the game (which I didn’t, paranoid ####er). Complete boyscout.

Please keep in mind I took a 2 year break from game and rarely looked at forums. I missed some drama because most people I speak to about the game don’t play anymore. We got old, not run off.

Will you take up the mantle with me, or arms against me? I welcome
your faith, your vice, your venom, and your wrath. There is a new
dawn on the horizon and I am coming with it. Cower not at the thought
of a tower of knowledge from whence power quaked the ground, for that
is but glimmers of a past. Mortal breath fills these lungs. That is,
until it does not. Will I be a corpse? Will you? Or, perhaps, will
we be something more?

That is the story yet to be told! From the portal and then through
the academy we shall return, marching through familiar and unfamiliar
lands alike. Ever on the sojourn with a character who's goal is to
engage each and everyone's desire to play a little make believe, and
have fun.

Time (and not enough of it) is the greatest factor now and was the
only reason for my sudden departure before. It will no doubt be at
least two years from that time until I can steal a sand from the hour
glass to give it to championing CF the way I wish to again.

Until that time, I ask you for purely selfish reasons... Endure! One
day I shall walk the carrion fields with you once again!

By whom I wish to be mourned,
Ignolmeer, the former.

and he writes whole sentences now

A lot of folks seem to be posting some decent ideas, but I recall a time when a voting link was stickied on the un-official sites. Just a thought, I do remember a time where some newbies were wandering in because the community (see: us) were helping in that way. Link is right on the left there, click it

The code thing is certainly pretty harsh. But understandable. Maybe some of the old imp-level coder folks could be enticed back? Not sure the backstory there, the alternative seems rather sad (no code changes, no posts on the bug board for the better part of a year, etc). Perhaps something like that, whether it be coder or builder or rp imms being reached out to could invigorate the place.

(---Begin musings and rants below, tldr: nothing new under the sun)

Personally, I'd like to see scion back, I was trying a character right when it closed, was just a miserable time... But I don't see a reasonable storyline segway to making that happen with the current game. Basically there was no other place for a wight to go, and I wanted to try it out, one came as another was leaving. Sad panda. But it's fun anyway. I don't see it happening, obviously. I just like despoil/volley and the secretive evil nature of the cabal. Finishing the Entropy cabal (powers) might get more than 2 people in there, but I honestly thought scarab would be more popular than it is. So what do I know.

So...I guess just the first two things, for suggestions. I can code C/c++, but I just want to play the game not code it, and in case anyone wasn't aware the two are mutually exclusive when you IMM till later on from what I understand. That and I know it's very much a proprietary and guarded thing, even given out in segments I'm sure it would be hard to manage and implement code work. So hard finding good people these days

I'll keep playing pretty much regardless of what happens, I like the game as is, as was, and by the looks of it as it will be. If you're a non-playing lurker who doesn't like the low player numbers, at least vote and tell anyone you're not trying to date about your dirty, filthy text game habit. That and play again. Think of it like putting a few coins in the donation jar rather than sitting besides an empty one playing your sad songs. Let's get this hobo some drinking money, hmm?

It doesn't have to be huge, but even 10 or 15% per groupmate for up to 2 groupmates. This encourages grouping over grinding to help with skill mastery.

Place that bonus over global bonuses too. I know it would take some coding, but the mechanics already exist.

Give us a season like diablo 3 where for that period of time (3 months? 6?) Theres something different.

Maybe one season is every character starts with all skills maxed, or has them set to max.

Maybe another season mana is always max flooded and everyone has deathblow.

Just some ideas to spice things up. It's been working really well for diablo 3 despite not adding any new content.

That's a bit too wild for me.

I'd be more into like one season is like... "There are eggs, go find them".

Another season is "Everyone gets a small blue hat that has no stats".

And stuff like that.

While I like spicing things up, my idea of spice is focused on RP stuff, events, interactions, etc. rather than handing out powers/skills.

Otherwise as mentioned earlier in the thread, the goal is to use improvements that don't require fancy coding stuff. So shift your ideas from mechanical to interactive and we can maybe make some more progress !

I'm not a fan of everyone having deathblow since people already complain about chars who land lots of hits (bat-paladins or whatever else) and that would really make it rough for low-hit-count classes.

I'm also not a fan of ideas that turn CF into something it's really not. I don't want a sort of super casual POSmud version of CF or anything like that. So I'm, personally, going to be pretty heavily resistant to ideas of that caliber.

But all in all, ideas are still good. The best ideas are ones that fit CF's style, don't require fancy coding stuff, etc. That's why I think, for now, we've got some good events to show off. Just looking at the CF Calendar shows we've been regularly keeping up with cool stuff!

-Ish

I feel like a lot of answers to things in game for a long time have been about realism or RP or whatever and very seldom is the answer to something brought up "because it's fun!" I think the game is missing this. I love the Imms, and the current ones are doing some pretty cool things, but I think ultimately parts of the game need to be re-addressed with the "But is it fun?" question. Not is it realistic, and sometimes waaaay too overly serious, stuff going on for several years. It's a game. It should be fun. Challenging, but FUN! Maybe I am just dumb for thinking this but I really feel this should be the first question asked for ANY change in the game and I just feel like a lot of people, even as awesome as they are, are stuck with this mentality that things HAVE to be a certain way because... (RP/Reality/lore/balance/fairness/whatever). Just my own thoughts and part of the main reason I am kept away anymore, among a couple others.

I'm a big 'fun' guy too, in terms of my thought process. The only issue here is that my 'fun' may not be yours. I found dying repeatedly in Sekiro fun, and I find the insanely difficult to master UI for Dwarf Fortress fun. BUT there's a huge portion of the population who don't enjoy that. So fun is often tailored based on what sort of fun you're aiming for. Sort of like that fun comic I posted earlier here: http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=72876&mesg_id=72878&page=

Some fun involves overcoming obstacles, or controlled behavior, etc. Other fun is willy-nilly wildness.

I do still find it challenging but fun, personally, and we're definitely aiming for fun given the recent spree (and continued spree) of events we've got going on.

Feel free to join in .

-Ish

And Dwarf Fortress UI is actually fairly easy, just nonstandard.
If you like truly difficult UIs, try DeltaGliderIV for Orbiter.

nt

Sent from my Iphone

Removing good features without asking "but is it fun?" ends up making things less fun, whether you win or lose. Both wins and losses are more palatable when the game is overall more fun.

I was taking your general statement I disagree with at face value.


On the subject of fun though, I see a lot of different people
wanting a lot of different things. As a community do we want more
stuff, or the old stuff? Or what?


Maybe an Imm could throw up a strawpoll so we can get a general
consensus of what exactly is being asked for on the whole.

Sent from my Iphone

I'm really looking forward to the upcoming event and hope it brings others back too.

As for Hell, good riddance. That gear was crazy OP, especially with a smaller playerbase.

I'd be cool if Hell remained open for exploration but all the gear crumbled upon exit.

Lol watch everyone whining about having hell and st back have a problem with that idea.

Sent from my Iphone

Stop denying people for having fun.

You weren't denied for having fun.

I'm talking about Rhy.

Hell, Edges then ST. But it wouldn't bring me back because I'm already playing

I think a major part of what causes a mud to stagnate and ultimately die, is unfortunately lack of new content/features being added. So what little coding resources CF has ought to be pushed to make at least some small changes. Case in point, edges. I suppose it's possible that CF code is so convoluted that even adding some simple linear multiplier to the EPs characters receive would be beyond reason now. Character customization possibilities such as edges are very important and I seriously doubt giving people more edges would break the game. But imms stubbornly tell us EPs are fine no matter what the players think. Seems kind of crazy to me, especially at this point. Oh well, anyway I do hope you manage to revive the game, somehow.

Mentioning content, we do have a few unfinished projects we're hoping to see completed sometime (no ETA available). A new race, a new class, and some lil' areas.


-Ish

And lets have a warlock class, forget enchanter lol Since I can't get a DND game irl, I might actually play if that were a thing hahah .

Haha, I won't spoil because I don't want to step on the toes of the people doing the majority of the work.

But I think the race(s) are nifty, and I'm a fan.


But then again I'm also insanely easy to please .

-Ish

NT

If anyone is interested in having a ban removed they can email IMPS@ and address it there. Feel free to forward that info to anyone who needs it!


-Ish

Thank you.

If you (the CF staff) would like to regain my trust, it's up to you to make effort, not up to me. I'm quite happy with the status quo.

This entire thread is painful. CF is a social game. It needs players, this has been stated before and honestly cannot be overstated enough. I'm typically an Ishuli fan, and I appreciate all he/she does, but it really sounds like Ishuli is content to go down with the ship.

Ultimately it sounds like CF really needs to have more active coders to make broad sweeping changes (or many changes at all, honestly). That's something to people in charge have to wrestle with and decide if they want to give a few more people coding ability. There's obviously risk in that, and its understandable why the imms are slow to give access to it. However...If that doesn't happen, no large changes will be made. End of story.

-Shamanman

Attachment #1, ( file)

About their role and ability in all of this, not as an administrator
or the face of immdom as a whole, just giving his/her opinion from
POV. Saying you like someone doesn't excuse being an accusatory a ss.

Let's say all these things are implemented.


Re-open hell and silent. My first post was tongue-in-cheek but
for real, what would that accomplish? One or two people who already
know the ins and outs of it will grab the gear. This person is
without a doubt already a competent vet with many years of experience.
Now he's a competent vet with tons of experience and broken gear.
The only person likely to kill him and get any of that broken gear
is another vet with an exceptional grasp of mechanics. Now that gear
gets circulated, between one or two people of comparable skill while
everyone else (Especially these eluvise newbs) gets steamrolled
because on top of already having less skill than the two vets has a
severe mechanical disadvantage. This will make lots of people want to
play, right?

Three specs for warrior, ok, why? We're going to take an already
top tier class and multiply their force by giving them a third spec
so they can then be an even more top tier class? More than likely
most of those third specs are just going to end up being H2H to
keep your preferred two specs but also negate assassins. ...ok?


Give shifters a second minor form. As it is people delete their
power-ranked shifters because they didn't get the forms they wanted.
Because they have no investment in the character from the beginning
and so throwing away 30 hours isn't a big deal to them. What
difference those having a second minor make if their major still
sucks? I can't see how that change would effect anything, if it
isn't perfect like you want you're still going to delete;delete
and reroll until you get what you want.

Devious versatility, I don't have any insight into this. Why does
it even exist, either give thieves more points from the outset or
cut it entirely.

As far as three kills to be a berserker. This isn't an Imm policy,
the leaders have decided arbitrarily that this is how it is, the
trend recently from the immside is to let mortal leaders lead
their cabals as they see fit. So the problem here is dumb leaders
making the game less convenient. What are the imms supposed to do
about it without being authoritarian interventionists? What is the
perfect number for applicants to reach before taking berserker?
Go multi-kill and sac the commander/drillmaster until they delete
if you really hate what they're doing so much.

Sent from my Iphone

These proposals are not to improve classes or rebalance anything. The reason I proposed them is to get people who have stopped playing to come back and roll a character. So, bump every class. Fine. Just change something. If nothing is new/different why would a player come back after they quit to play with fewer people? They wouldn't.

Now, why in the world would anyone (besides the IMMs for some reason) have a problem with shifters power ranking/deleting/re-rolling? I see no problem with this if that's what they want to do Especially with low numbers. Have you tried to find a group in the last two weeks? Especially if you don't play at a peak with 15-20 people on?? I would give my left ball to have power ranking shifters around.

As for berserkers needing 3 mage kills, the IMMs could change that in 2 seconds by telling the commander to make it 1.

#### your face Ishuli, you helpful asshole. How dare you spend thousands of hours as what seems like a one man army trying to do everything you can to keep the game afloat doing what you can do. Your sacrifice is #### you bitch. I'm normally a big fan but #### your sinking ship and just how dare you sir.

Jesus Christ Shamanman is kind of a prick. YOU ARENT DOING MY IDEA SO YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

#### right off with that ####.

Thanks for everything you do Ish, as well as everyone else that participates and helps. This whole thread is kind of a #### show of why IMMs don't stay long.

Like I said lower in the thread, I'm working on a number of things to hopefully get us some more players.

I can't speak much to the coding side, since that isn't my domain, but I can say it's not that anyone 'doesn't care'. RL>CF and sometimes life gets demanding and busy. It has happened before to me, so I'm not really into condemning someone else when it happens to them.

As for the general view, I don't think the big issue is coding. I personally think it's a culture/attitude thing, but again, that's just me.

Thanks for the feedback!

-Ish

There seems to be a big concern about balance.

Balance isn't a thing when there's only 3 people online.

Balance is a major concern when its a largely unobserved arena. Imms can literally watch everything happening in real time.

If I'm stomping people with my one trick pony c sleep necro, I'd be ecstatic if a god came down and took away my sleep spell and had me prove I didn't need it.

This is something we have an advantage in compared to other games and we squander it. Give us real tasks, real restraints, real rewards, maybe even with downsides.

The bottom line is that no one can argue we aren't in the last inning. We need to try some real changes instead of sticking to the same thing and hoping for a miracle. Give us a hail mary, or create some chaos, don't just cling to the status quo because of some goal of purity, because it'll be pure and empty.

We're not likely to do any sweeping changes in one way or another. CF is CF and most of the imms like preserving what it is and trying to add content rather than fiddle with what-is. I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong, just speaking to generally the attitude as I see it.

I'm game to give in game tasks, restraints, rewards, etc. I even do that, currently, in game in interactions. But I’ve also had issues where the simple implication to a Paladin that he follow the code made him delete, a question to a warrior made him delete, a comment that implied restraint resulted in a guy basically saying “yeah no”. So trust me, I’m there trying to do it, but a flaw is considered a death sentence, dying makes people delete, losing a piece of gear makes them delete, etc. so any further restraint really has gotten me near zero positive feedback despite my atmospheric efforts on that end. Definitely makes me a tad cautious, and I imagine you can see why.

But hey, if I bump into you and it goes down, at least we’d have fun with it 😊.

Otherwise as is there are regular ongoing events with the chance at reward, a number of which people haven’t showed up to. But we’ll keep doing them, so feel free to jump in at the chance!


-Ish

Some people just can’t wrap their head around the idea that character setbacks and obstacles (especially ones noticed by or participated in by the staff) actually make for a more unique, enriching and overall fun character experience.

I think it’s fun when the proverbial gauntlet gets thrown down and you have to try and rise to the challenge. Others, unfortunately, just turn into gaping slashes and delete then come here to the boards to whine about it. Don’t pander to them!

As to your first comment, I think there’s a large contingent of people in the PB that feel like fiddling with the game is what led it to the current state and it would be better to try and return to what was rather than preserve what is.

I do want to commend you and the active staff for trying to make the best of what you have, though.

"are you okay with being constrained, such as having spells, items, or abilities taken away during roleplay?"

You make an excellent point, but at the same time having RP actually get deeper might bring (back) a different sort of crowd that is more interested in the rp than just the pvp.

I'm going to come back for the Emnon event so I'll give the events a try.

I'd also be happy to put that sort of thing at the top of my role "I am happy with any level of punishment or constraint, such as spell, gear, and ability removal." Is that a good idea? It would easily identify my chars, not that I think that matters.

That's a tough one, since I think it would fully depend on the imm dealing with the person, how they prefer things (some people don't like OOC notes in roles, some people don't mind it, etc.) I can say that it wouldn't bother me, and I don't think it's a bad idea. As to Emnon's event - that's all him, toss him an email and see what he thinks, I'd hate to step on his toes.

One time I took a dwarf's hand (got him the one-handed flaw) for breaking an oath with me. Alas, it didn't last very long.

Just as an aside, the same players who tend to restrict themselves by role/personality/whatever their char does tend to be some of the most 'challenging' for me, but in a good way. Makes me step my game up, makes interactions surprisingly unique, and even makes me rethink my own angles. I dig that stuff a lot.

-Ish

Having a second "bullet points" type entry to follow the narrated portion of the role used to be recommended by twist and some others I think, correct me if I'm wrong. I assume that still holds true.

So I think it should read appropriate to anybody with any sense if you put a note like that inside that particular entry.

While I think Ishuli is trying to make it a better place their comments make me want to play less.

I largely think this is unfair to say.

In all heathy discussion there will always be things you like and don’t like.

Sometimes as part of that we as players need to accept some things may be set as they are for now and enjoy things for what they are.

EG you may think ten legacies is a lot of fun well me I think twenty legacies is a lot of fun. But doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy the game with 2

I think that's one of the big reasons you won't see many imms respond to threads like this.

It's sort of like customer service. Customer says "I want X!" you say "No, we only do Y" and no matter how you phrase it or say it you'll make them unhappy.

Then if we don't respond it's bad, and if we do it's bad too. It's a no-win kind of feeling, which I think is a REAL turn-off for some folks.

Unlucky for you and me, I'm hard-headed and stubborn so I'm going to reply anyway . I tend to think dialogue is good, and the right way to do things, but I could be wrong!

-Ish

And UMI has stated this before. I'm paraphrasing:

CF is a hobby for the IMMs enjoyment. If non-IMMs logon and enjoy it to, fine. But that's just icing on the cake and we can live without it.

If that's the majority view of the IMMs or of the IMMs that can make significant changes, it would be a good idea just to say so plainly and avoid all of the back and forth with the playerbase who are trying to participate in saving CF.

Like I said I think you’re trying and to clarify I do think you’re very good for this game overall.

But most businesses that find there’s no demand for their product tweak the product.

Still, without IMM buy-in that they are interested in doing something in the first place to bring back players, it's just more head-banging.

More players at this point should be priority #1. Because as it stands, we do not have enough to maintain the MUD. No one like to log-on and fight the same person time and time again because they are the only PK. I've been the ONLY person on the MUD several times this week.

People are not going to come back without a significant change(s) that promises (to them) to make their experience better than the last time they played.

To do this:
1) Open Hell
2) Open ST
3) Give warriors a third weapon spec
4) Cut the edge point costs in half
5) Give shifters a second minor
6) Cut the IMM xp req for devious versatilty
7) Hell, get rid of IMM ex reqs for everything
8) Three kills to become a berserker? Come on.
9) Don't punish people for teaching their RL friend the game

A tweak at this point will not do it. You need to do something that makes someone want to play again and tell their contacts they they may want to also.

All of those require code changes except for 8 and 9. So that's a big no on most of it.

I have a rough time with this post due to some fundamental disagreements. The goal is to get more players, not to 'pay' people with in game benefits to make them come back. The game has so much now easier than before, and I don't think making it MORE easy is the answer.

But I'll try to address them individually just to give my perspective.

1) Not until Papa Scar is satisfied in fixing some stuff up.
2) Unlikely.
3) Coding so no.
4) Coding so no.
5) Coding so no.
6) Coding so no.
7) Coding so no.
8) Be a defender or a scout or be cool enough to be the exception .
9) They aren't so long as it's done IC. I don't recall ever having punished someone for this myself.

I'm doing all the stuff I said in the other post, so I'm doing things! Just wait and I'll do more things, I just can't stretch myself too thin!

-Ish

I knew that a lot of coding or complex coding was a no no. But I had no idea that no amount of code change was an option to save the mud.

If this is that case, the IMMs have been derelict in their duty as stewards of CF and there may not be a way to turn this decline around if you don't get someone who can code.

The suggestions I made that involved code would probably require changing some constants. It would take a coder less time to make the change than it would to recompile the code.

It wasn't long ago that I applied for IMM, then withdrew my application when I was told that I couldn't ever post on dio's again if I IMMed. Also, I was asked if I'd be OK with never being able to touch the code (I'm a software engineer).

As for your suggection "be a defender or scout", I play exclusively defenders when I play battle. I have no interest in playing a berserker. This suggestion isn't for me, it's for the MUD. A lot of people want to play berserkers, but cannot get 3 mage kills before 200 hours because there are no mages. The response to legit complaints over the years of "then play something else" hasn't worked out very well in my opinion. Maybe a different response or at least a more honest one like GFU is in order.

My response has been entirely honest, but your comment about 'gfu' makes me regret bothering to respond .

Thanks for the feedback. If you want to become an imm, you can go through the imm application like everyone else with the same requirements.

Even if we had active coding, I do not support the majority of your change suggestions. That doesn't mean I'm against all change, there's a lot of neat ideas I'd before, but most of them don't involve making the game easier - it's more like new content stuff.

I'll cut my answer there I can see this has stopped being constructive. Thanks.

-Ish

Ishuli, I like you a lot and I think you're in a very tough position. Though you spend a lot of time and effort improving the CF experience, you cannot make the changes that need to be made nor can you force those who can to do so. That said, the "play something else" suggestion has been used and abused over the years to sidestep discussions about whether something is a problem and how, if so, it can be addressed. The GFU was directed more at the previous uses.

If I want to become an IMM...well, I don't anymore. My point was that the requirements to become an IMM (who can code) hasn't changed in, what, decades? The fact that a MUD (that's slowly dying) does not have an IMM who can code to help address that is proof that there is something wrong with the IMM process. If it was working, you would have someone who could code and some free time to do it. Period.

Edit: I don't apologize for my passion to keep CF afloat. I wish some IMMs besides you shared it.

I think it is a stupid rule and am really shocked that no battle leader has decided to change it.

I don’t know where the rule started but it’s lame. It feels like someone who hates DB made Commander and decided to punish players for rolling a berserker and no one has had the good sense to change the rule since.

I don’t think it makes sense from an RP standpoint, either. Why, as a leader, would you want to handicap the front line portion of your army? Is that going to benefit the overall war against mages? Hell no. It’s going to lead to less dead mages.

I have always been a proponent of finding ways to push villagers to work for more MPKs but this isn’t it. I went through the process once and marveled at how many mages slipped through my fingers knowing that I might have gotten the kill had I had full berserker powers. I even argued for its removal with the then Commander but was told no. It’s baffling to me and this is coming from a guy that makes getting MPKs a top priority whenever I play battle.

You and your ideas suck.

Yeah, I think your idea of telling people to "STFU and roll" might work better.

NT

I'm not gone, but it's getting unplayable. Why IMMs aren't asking this amazes me. IMMs, what is your plan to increase numbers. Mind sharing? We might have some input.

Sure.

Continuing running religions and interactions.

Continue events to try and keep the CF calendar full of neat chance for RP and PK. Today was even a unique new attempt at a sort of 'immortal holiday' which a few people took part in (thanks Rahs!).

Continue outputting areas.

Continue updating the website and trying to make it cool (like the character generator, bwahaha).

Put out some ads for CF. I have tossed my own money into this, but I fully admit I'm not a cool marketing ad-know-how guy, but I'm trying a few things.

Working on a method to get CF on to Steam's game library among other locations.


I'm pretty deep into a number of these, and I'm fiddling with ideas on other stuff, so we'll see how that goes. I've got high hopes though, and my fingers are always crossed that the people I see complaining will hop on and enjoy the game as is.

But while I can say those things, I can say without any insult intended, that what I'm looking for isn't input, since I've got a crazy surplus of that. And everyone is always game to provide input, over-saturated market! Instead I'm hoping for people equally motivated to just jump in, play, and aim to make the game fun. Talking is cool, doing is cool'er!

-Ish

I posted my input (that you're not looking for) just before I read this (See "More constructive" post"). But, I know you alone can only do so much. I still play. Probably as much as anyone in the MUD. I can tell you why I've been tempted to stop. Because when you lose me, who is a fanatic with an irrational attachment to the game, there's little hope of getting new players.

1) Number of players. I cannot overstate this. New players log in, see only me online and log out, never to return. You need to do something to make the 100s of old players decide to give it another go before you try to recruit new players.

2) Requirements for things that you have little to no hope of ever accomplishing. This included IMM ex reqs, PK reqs and empowerment. I know you've made non-empowerment an option. No one wants a weaker character. Auto-empower and freely unempower people who do not perform.

I give specific ideas in my other post. There may be a lot of input, some of it will not help. Not all work is worth the effort. The players you haven't heard from may help you determine what will help and what will not.

If old players wanna come enjoy the good ol' CF that's easier than ever before, it DOES exist in its current fashion. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of making things easier, and easier, and easier - I feel like it's just a nonstop slope of casualising it in a way that kills what CF is to ME at least. Again I can't speak for everyone - just this lonely Ish's view. Same way I'd hate Dwarf Fortress if they made hunting even easier, or Crusader Kings if you didn't suffer for bad terrain assaults.

Given that I'm doing what I am capable of doing, that's the extent of my focus. And I at least can try to court new players, so I'll do that! And I've tried to court older players on Facebook and stuff by mentioning events and all too. So I'll keep doing that.

I'm pretty stubborn, so just you wait. I'll slam my head against the wall until either my head or the wall break, bwa ha ha! But like I said, I've got high hopes. So I'll just keep doing what I can. If each person does that, we'll be in a decent spot .

-Ish

I don't play warriors. There's nothing about me facing a three spec warrior that would be easier.

My point is that many people left when the numbers started to twindle because of the numbers. We cannot entice them back with numbers because they are worse than when they left. The only hope is to entice them with something that did not exist then they left. Like a 3 spec warrior or a 2 minor shifter...etc. It's logic.

Rather than breaking what current balance we may have, I'd rather try to pop out a new race/class. But the focus should be on non-code options. Hence why I work on what I do . That just may be a fundamental disagreement between us, and that's fine - I don't have any interest in making warriors become 3spec and all - not my cup of tea. I'd rather try other things.

-Ish

The two options are not even on the same planet.

A new class is impossible with your resources and requires a huge amount of not only codeing, but creative input. Increasing the number of specs, foci, dedications, thief points, etc. could be accomplished with a minimal effort. You're essentially changing numbers or at worst, copying and slightly editing existing code.

You can't do the same thing and expect different results.

From my observations there seems to be a sensitivity over dying early on.

This is when people have basic gear as well. Which to me means it points
To the stat loss. I would like to see a return to simple things.

1 con per 5 deaths for all.
Edge points for time played (without impacting current system) eg each 50 hrs
you get a few points

I agree people are definitely sensitive about dying and losing gear.

But people tend to die less now, get looted less, and there is more gear than ever before.

So I don't think the answer is to make it easier/softer, since it already is and people are still unhappy. I think it's more just an attitude thing.

So for me, that change is unlikely. I don't think I like the idea of reducing con loss, personally.

As to EP, things are as they are for now. And you do get EP for reaching old age, so that's kinda there!

-Ish

100% ok with the response will just clarify

Perhaps my initial con loss response wasn’t clear. There are a lot of people who loose no gear at alll but delete early from silly deaths so it can be gear driven and I wonder if the con loss is what it is. I don’t discount in the grand scheme of things that a lot of players delete way before they hit con loss or age death. But this to me kinda of just says well the con kinda doesn’t matter in the long term so let’s see if we can get a short term gain.

As for edges it’s just flogging a dead horse but it seems to be the change players are most vocal on. Main reason I mention it.

I will say one thing as a big thumbs up
I feel the Imms efforts to drive events for player involvement has been at an all time high. This has been fantastic on the flip side tho some events have fallen flat this lies on the players that call for more of this interaction. So big thumbs up to the Imms for pushing through this and keeping this ball rolling it’s eggcellent!

Oh! You're right, I partially misunderstood. Yeah, I definitely think some people delete from losing from max con. But you can also wear gear for it and still get the gains I think, so I'm not sure what the upset would be.

Edges, yeah, that is a vocal one.

We're trying hard on events, I can assure you that! We've even run 3 events recently that had pretty much nobody show up so we cancelled them and plan to reschedule them.

We'll keep at it .

-Ish

Build it and they will come.

Sometimes you just need to build for a while 😀

Can we do a poll about whether we prefer edge point totals (not means of gathering) as they were, or as they are, please?

Part of the problem with edges at old age can be illustrated with this example. Say there's an expensive edge I really want. So I save until old age, going without edges for hundreds of hours, only to find I can't pick it anyway. Whether that be lack of points, or an immexp requirement, or whatever. I've basically forgone edges for nothing.

The other part is that I can not try out obscure edges without making a fairly material sacrifice to do so. Which wastes the efforts of those who created those edges and the variety in the mud.

I'd love it if you just gave characters a pool of X additional edge points at creation. It would benefit newbs more, proportionally, let people try out obscure edges without lots of effort, and increase customisation for classes that otherwise don't have much.

While one could make an argument that they'd prefer MORE edge points - I don't think that solves your issue at all.

If you can't get an edge at all, you can figure that out with discuss prereq with a guildmaster. If you're saving up for a bigger edge and forgoing lesser edges because of it, that's the same no matter what system is made. Even if I 100% know I can get an edge, I live X hours without it building up to get it, ignoring edges Y and Z in the process. And if I take it, and can, but it ends up not doing what I want, or sucking, or whatever else - the situation isn't solved.

So while I can understand simply wanting more edges, your described issue here seems like a non-issue to me.

As of right now a given person could get enough edgepoints to take the most expensive edge in the game twice over and then get some extra edges on top of that. That's a descriptive statement, not me saying it should be this way or that way.

There's a sacrifice to taking any edge, and that sacrifice should be there in my mind. Same way you could take weapon spec X and now you're down to only 1 weapon spec choice. It means you can't test it more until you roll another character, and that's the case with most of the customization options in the game - from edges, specs, legacies, adaptations, affinities, etc.

As to edge changes in general, that isn't my domain, so I'll let someone else speak to that.

-Ish

Fat chance they'll speak.
*surveys the thread*
24 imm answers and 23 of them are by Ishuli.

And comparing edges to weapon specs is inappropriate. Having an extra weapon spec was never the norm, but having 20 edges has been the norm in long-lived characters, for a long, long, long time.