I've made some modest attempts at characters in just about everything, such asthe old unified fortress, warlocks since the change, scions, and entropy. I've found that the average players pk skills have gone down tremendously, especially at hero ranges. As usual, it is least pronounced in the "evil" cabal... but it's still a significant trend. Some examples... decked scion shifters giving the most terrible tactical advice i've ever heard, if they try directing combat at all. Warlock conjurers unable to master their extremely limited combat options (let's magic missle this invoker instead of dispel)... the list goes on. Oddly enough, these people can still be huge forces in the hero ranges. When I first heroed, I was getting smoked by just about everybody from groups like neosoft/smug to lone powerhouses like Nastavnic. Drop a hero range from today into the past, given class/cabal combinations of each players choice as well as equivalent knowledge of eq/prep locations and you're going to see a whole lot of corpses scattered around Thera. My question is, why exactly has this happened?

A few points:

1) (This is the major one.) You've improved your own PK skills over this time, and now you notice bad tactics. When you're new at things, you don't notice that the conjurer is using magic missile over dispel, or wands, etc. You're just wondering how bash doesn't kill the mage in two rounds, and why the necromancer keeps using this Energy Drain spell when the damage obviously sucks.

2) As Angel of Death pointed out, we police permagroups and multi-charring a lot tougher than we used to. As one example, while Palan's player certainly knows what he's doing, he wouldn't have been as tough as he was without Yagar and/or Tamuera always covering his back. The reason you have memories of SMUG/Neosoft obliterating their ranges has a lot to do with the fact that they weren't playing on a level field.

3) Equipment doesn't necessarily mean a person is highly skilled. Especially in a large cabal like Scion, they might have just been standing nearby when someone who is skilled killed someone else who is skilled.

4) Lone powerhouses still exist. Go back over the Graveyard, and you'll see a number of characters who were tough as nails and largely fought solo.

5) Class balance is a lot tighter than it used to be. Nowadays, I feel very comfortable in saying that there is no dominant class. The playerbase certainly doesn't agree on one- you'll see posts claiming conjurers, invokers, assassins, necromancers, paladins, shifters, etc. are all ruling the roost. (These complaints tend to wax and wane regardless of an absence of changes to the class, as well...) The changes I'd personally like to see at hero are all pretty small in those regards. I'd also bet that if we tracked PKs at level 42+ for a while, the most deadly classes aren't the ones most often complained about.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>A few points:
>
>1) (This is the major one.) You've improved your own PK
>skills over this time, and now you notice bad tactics. When
>you're new at things, you don't notice that the conjurer is
>using magic missile over dispel, or wands, etc. You're just
>wondering how bash doesn't kill the mage in two rounds, and
>why the necromancer keeps using this Energy Drain spell when
>the damage obviously sucks.

I don't know, I sucked for quite a while and I can still think of a whole ton of people better than me. What always boggled me is that usually no matter how bad we were, we could at least grasp what general set of skills/supps/spells to use in a particular situation. I posted because thinking back, i've grouped with quite a few people who are actual forces in their range, difference makers even... and I find they are unable to even get the basics down. On the contrary, i'd run around with groups of knights who clearly had only had 1 or 2 heroes before (back in the days when you just start talking about your past characters over group tells), but when it came to planning a battle they'd pretty much know what the group needed to do to win (eg. correct balance of damage and lagging). Sure, once the chaos of battle ensued we'd often panic and get smoked by a couple of shadow, but we knew what it took to win. I'm thinking cf just used to be more balanced between being a pk/roleplaying mud.


>
>2) As Angel of Death pointed out, we police permagroups and
>multi-charring a lot tougher than we used to. As one
>example, while Palan's player certainly knows what he's
>doing, he wouldn't have been as tough as he was without
>Yagar and/or Tamuera always covering his back. The reason
>you have memories of SMUG/Neosoft obliterating their ranges
>has a lot to do with the fact that they weren't playing on a
>level field.

Such is the way of the computer lab, but when I mentioned this I was thinking of a few members of each group that were notorious for running around solo and working people.... in fact, you just kicked one of them out of your cabal for doing that (subjective, I know).

>
>3) Equipment doesn't necessarily mean a person is highly
>skilled. Especially in a large cabal like Scion, they might
>have just been standing nearby when someone who is skilled
>killed someone else who is skilled.

I'm not sure what this is in response to...

>4) Lone powerhouses still exist. Go back over the
>Graveyard, and you'll see a number of characters who were
>tough as nails and largely fought solo.

I didn't say they don't exist anymore. I said that at any given time you'd see a couple different people a week that would rarely run around with groups and would just freak you out when you saw them on. This has likely gone down due to the fact that shadow and masters were obliterated. As overpowered they were, cf no longer has any sort of true niche for those like Nastavnic... which is sort of sad. I'd be delighted if some sort of cabal was developed that was sort of like shadow. Maybe an expansion of the new bounty system where only highly skilled killers are allowed in (imagine that, a maran like cabal where you actually have to be able to kill people to join) and given TRUE hoarde breaking skills... such as eye of intrigue. Of course, this sort of power would have to be limited with something like banning members from ever joining a group except for ranking purposes in addition to something like not allowing them to ever form a true alliance (anybody could be their next contract). I really liked the idea of nexus, but it didn't work out in the end. Create a limited, completely neutral construct that's enticing to the pk'rs of cf and you'll begin to see some real balance.

>
>5) Class balance is a lot tighter than it used to be.
>Nowadays, I feel very comfortable in saying that there is no
>dominant class.

With the exception of a lich right?

>The playerbase certainly doesn't agree on
>one- you'll see posts claiming conjurers, invokers,
>assassins, necromancers, paladins, shifters, etc. are all
>ruling the roost.

I think we can all agree that particular classes are WAY too dominant over other particular classes. This may balance things overall, but it somewhat takes the fun out of things. As far as conjurers go... I think most of us agree that they're somewhat overpowered in most aspects.

> These complaints tend to wax and wane
>regardless of an absence of changes to the class, as
>well...) The changes I'd personally like to see at hero are
>all pretty small in those regards. I'd also bet that if we
>tracked PKs at level 42+ for a while, the most deadly
>classes aren't the ones most often complained about.

This is completely true. The classes that are most overpowered also have a ton of trouble finishing kills solo (I can think of two players that decided to combine this with force duel with more than overpowered results). Drop people one by one into a force duel arena and you're going to see prepared conjurers, paladins, and invokers come out on top. In the past couple of years i've died to a solo conjurer approximately 2-3 times, tons of times to invokers (try just about anything on a flying invoker with an arial thief and they'll kill you in about two rounds), and never once to a paladin. This also sort of reflects the number of posts i've seen bitching about each class. Just cause a class sometimes can't kill everybody, doesn't mean they aren't overpowered.

>5) Class balance is a lot tighter than it used to be. Nowadays, I feel very comfortable in saying that there is no dominant class. The playerbase certainly doesn't agree on one- you'll see posts claiming conjurers, invokers, assassins, necromancers, paladins, shifters, etc. are all ruling the roost. (These complaints tend to wax and wane regardless of an absence of changes to the class, as well...) The changes I'd personally like to see at hero are all pretty small in those regards. I'd also bet that if we tracked PKs at level 42+ for a while, the most deadly classes aren't the ones most often complained about.

I'd disagree with you here, champ. I can pretty much site a definitive hierarchy to cf classes. Can you remember the last really scary ranger? Or the last Orc that ruled the school? How about a thief that terrorized the populace? An arcane transmuter that was more than a one trick pony? And when you compare these classes to classes such as conjurors and transmuters that can feasibly be dynamos with only minimal practice...someone high up must like playing 'em, because if game "balance" is what you're aiming for...

I don't play thieves for the firepower, I play them because I like being the underdog (and underdogs they are). I can steal. I can annoy. I am quite a capable killer...but John Q Average Cf'er can be five times the killer I am by choosing air/offense as his next shifter form (not to mention an instant built in cloaking device just by typing "fly"). I would imagine not too many immortals watch me, not being in a cabal and all, but I wish someone was trailing me the time I tripped and killed Shilite, landing every cheapshot, and almost dying myself just to his shield. If he had cast a spell--even one--it woulda been coitans.

>I'd disagree with you here, champ. I can pretty much site a
>definitive hierarchy to cf classes.

Me too, but I'm thinking it's probably different from yours.


>Can you remember the last really scary ranger?

Hegobi, but, well...Delanan. If we move down the ranks from Hero there have been plenty of deathful rangers.


>Or the last Orc that ruled the school?

Nazgauga, but, well...Entropy. Grumplestein, Chuntog, Mordizzug were all pretty hoss.


>How about a thief that terrorized the populace?

Barczack, but, well...Ehren. Nvranjol? Jubair?


>An arcane transmuter that was more than a one trick pony?

There are plenty of one trick ponies that I consider extremely scary. Rituuraj for example, but, well....Dale cemetery.


>And when you compare these classes to classes such as conjurors
>and transmuters that can feasibly be dynamos with only
>minimal practice...someone high up must like playing 'em,
>because if game "balance" is what you're aiming for...

I found it far more difficult to kill people with my LG Conjie and air/offense tranny than with my thieves and assassins. Unfortunately I never hero'd any of the thieves and assassins, so maybe that would change my mind. But I killed more people from ranks 1-35 with each deleted assassin/thief than my air/offense shifter did over 350 hours. Not for lack of effort either.


>I don't play thieves for the firepower, I play them because
>I like being the underdog (and underdogs they are). I can
>steal. I can annoy. I am quite a capable killer...but John
>Q Average Cf'er can be five times the killer I am by
>choosing air/offense as his next shifter form (not to
>mention an instant built in cloaking device just by typing
>"fly").

Assuming I'm not a rager, can't see hidden and don't have perma-fly, I'm going to be more scared of the "competant and well-geared" thief than of the "competant and well-geared" air/offense shifter. Unless perhaps the shifter is acting as scout for a huge roaming gang. Say you're playing a warrior with a race vuln. Would you rather be chased by a Viornsra (sans acidic bite) or jacked by an Enbuergo?


>I would imagine not too many immortals watch me, not
>being in a cabal and all, but I wish someone was trailing me
>the time I tripped and killed Shilite, landing every
>cheapshot, and almost dying myself just to his shield. If
>he had cast a spell--even one--it woulda been coitans.

To me, you just shot down your own argument with this one phrase, "hitting every cheapshot". You took a class like Invoker, which many people bitch and moan about being overpowered, and killed him without him having *any* chance to escape. There was nothing he could do but sit there and watch himself die. That's not overpowered?

I think the point of miscommunication between players and staff is in what each means by "overpowered". Most of those who complain seem to define it as "difficult or impossible to take down in a straight up fight". This would certainly include classes like paladin, good conjurer, shifter, and invoker. I think the staff, however, consider a class to be "overpowered" if it can be used by a skilled player to *completely discount* opponents' skill and preparation. In other words, if you can use a class/race/cabal combo to bowl over highly competant people using an easily repeatable method, then that class/race/cabal combo is overpowered.

A good example of this would be Rituraaj and the Dale cemetery. When gaunted there was little chance to escape, even if you were carrying the key. So changes were made to disable this strategy. Another one is Delanan, the sylvan shaman with wall and insects. It's now extremely difficult to reproduce this combo.

Given this, I'd put at the top of the list necros, assasins, conjies, druids, rangers, and maybe thieves and invokers.

Necros:
Pros: Sleep + forget + curse + scourge/etc.
Cons: Skilled people will see you coming and act accordingly. Also save vs. spell.

Conjies:
Pros: Gaunts + wands + mazey cursed places.
Cons: Skilled people will take precautions not to be gaunted. Furthermore, gaunting is a time-consuming and frustrating process.

Assassins:
Pros: Assassinate.
Cons: Not many. Skilled or not, unless you have certain virtues or can see hidden there's the possibility you'll get taken down.

Druids:
Pros: The Hunt. What a crock.
Cons: Limited to a certain time of the month. Skilled people will avoid wildnerss like the plague during this time.

Rangers:
Pros: Snare + bearcharge + scroll use.
Cons: People can *somewhat* avoid wildneress areas. Bash protection nullifies bearcharge.

Thieves:
Pros: Jack + steal + cheap shot + bind + scroll use. Ugly.
Cons: Not many.

Invokers:
Pros: Invulnerable to most lag, insane damage. Quicksand + earthbind.
Cons: Hard to lag others. With utility spells this argument loses force.

>I think the point of miscommunication between players and
>staff is in what each means by "overpowered". Most of those
>who complain seem to define it as "difficult or impossible
>to take down in a straight up fight". This would certainly
>include classes like paladin, good conjurer, shifter, and
>invoker. I think the staff, however, consider a class to be
>"overpowered" if it can be used by a skilled player to
>*completely discount* opponents' skill and preparation. In
>other words, if you can use a class/race/cabal combo to bowl
>over highly competant people using an easily repeatable
>method, then that class/race/cabal combo is overpowered.


I think what is commonly meant by "overpowered" is more along
the lines of "unreasonably powerful in a way detrimental to
gameplay". For example, old school invokers like Aurien dropping
four people in two rounds with pillars.


>A good example of this would be Rituraaj and the Dale
>cemetery. When gaunted there was little chance to escape,
>even if you were carrying the key. So changes were made to
>disable this strategy. Another one is Delanan, the sylvan
>shaman with wall and insects. It's now extremely difficult
>to reproduce this combo.

This is arguable. Both of these aren't what I would call
"really" overpowered because of extenuating circumstances.
For Rituraaj, all you had to do was carry a leaf and unlock
the door. It wasn't hard. A number of people did it. For me,
all you had to do was avoid forests, because I really, really
didn't do the sit in a wall thing. When I deleted, my wall was
at 77%, my insect was at 98%. For every sylvan shaman you name,
I can probably name one who sucked at PK (no offense
cath!). With the set of gear I had at deletion, I was almost
unkillable, but I was still a lot less deadly than Leika or an
entropy whatever. My powers only helped me to keep the person
around: I still relied essentially on only class powers to win the
fight itself. Overpowered, to me, is when mediocre players
regularly beat skilled players through sheer gross imbalance in
the game (i.e. old vokers, old conjurers, etc). If I was going
to finger a class as overpowered right now, I would probably
lean towards invokers, but I haven't really seen one that epitomizes
overpowered yet, and they're not really that bad.
The real overpowered is still entropy doppel.

>Given this, I'd put at the top of the list necros, assasins,
>conjies, druids, rangers, and maybe thieves and invokers.
>
>Necros:
>Pros: Sleep + forget + curse + scourge/etc.
>Cons: Skilled people will see you coming and act
>accordingly. Also save vs. spell.

Can't hero, ragers spellbane, thieves.

>Conjies:
>Pros: Gaunts + wands + mazey cursed places.
>Cons: Skilled people will take precautions not to be
>gaunted. Furthermore, gaunting is a time-consuming and
>frustrating process.

Boring boring boring, hard to finish kills, gaunts suck
vs the people who are actually interesting to PK (i.e.
people with a clue).

>Assassins:
>Pros: Assassinate.
>Cons: Not many. Skilled or not, unless you have certain
>virtues or can see hidden there's the possibility you'll get
>taken down.

Shapeshifter forms. Perhaps you've noticed that 50% of the
game is shifters. I've only been assassinated once, and that
was two and a half years ago while naked and regearing, and
I've had some chars that assassins really wanted a piece of.
Avoiding assassination is a relatively easy matter of altering
normal habits.

>Druids:
>Pros: The Hunt. What a crock.
>Cons: Limited to a certain time of the month. Skilled
>people will avoid wildnerss like the plague during this
>time.

You suck 25% of the time, indoors, and are really easy to
kill in terms of damage reduction/tanking.

>Rangers:
>Pros: Snare + bearcharge + scroll use.
>Cons: People can *somewhat* avoid wildneress areas. Bash
>protection nullifies bearcharge.

Wilderness familiarity is the most annoying thing you'll ever
encounter. Invokers will still tool you, hard. You suck in
60% of the game territory.

>Thieves:
>Pros: Jack + steal + cheap shot + bind + scroll use. Ugly.
>Cons: Not many.

Not many? How about the fact that you've got practically no
skills at all that work vs flying opponents? Thieves at high
levels are one trick ponies, and if their trick fails they're
probably going to die in the jack lag.

>Invokers:
>Pros: Invulnerable to most lag, insane damage. Quicksand +
>earthbind.
>Cons: Hard to lag others. With utility spells this argument
>loses force.

Hard to finish PKs, but a very very strong class, especially with
the recent upgrades. Of the classes you've listed, this and
necro get my nod for the strongest. Well, properly prepped
conjurers are just as nasty, but their downtime limitations
are problematic.

More invokers cons that didn't get a lot of air time in this thread(*):

- You can never cover all the ways someone can lag you. If an invoker can't reliably cast, they're the worst class in the game, possibly excepting transmuters.

- Concealment limited to Improved Invis and Dig. Mobility/pursuit limited to Teleport/Word. It's not hard to avoid or surprise an invoker, relative to most other classes.

- Room Traps: Beat them like you beat Wall of Thorns- keep the fight mobile, be unpredictable in your paths, don't pick a fight when you start to get the feeling you're in the middle of 10 of them, and remember that once they put one down, they can't set them up again for a while (in some cases)

- If you have abilities that hurt their mana (we should put more ways to do this, as an aside), you can make an invoker useless fast- a lot of their better spells cost a ton. Shamans and necromancers lead this list.

- Saving throws, saving throws, saving throws. You hear that, Battle? Step away from the charred leather bracer a moment. Learn from conjurers, and carry some adjustment options in your backpack. If you have a 0-ish save vs. spells before warcry/spellbane/etc, and an invoker pushes you down and takes your lunch money, don't come crying to Uncle Valg.

- If the wind tells you to lie down and nap because everything is safe, don't do it. *wisenod*

- Slippery Valg

(*): Disclaimer: I'm not the most deathfull Theran, but I do OK.

Only three walls of thorns? They clearly have underestimated my ability to yelp and run like a scared little girl.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>- You can never cover all the ways someone can lag you. If
>an invoker can't reliably cast, they're the worst class in
>the game, possibly excepting transmuters.

Geez I hate to disagree with you Valguarnera and maybe I'm wrong here, but shouldn't this be more like "You can never cover all the ways EVERYONE can lag you"? I've never played an invoker but I think they can cover all the ways for example a thief can lag, or that mace spec warrior, so in a known one-on-one the invoker has prepped for, they should be unlaggable.

A warrior high enough level to worry about that has two specs for a reason.

Well, since we're still not up I'll debate the point further. First off, you didn't deny that thieves can't lag invokers. Secondly, maybe I'm wrong here, but only spear, mace, and axe have special lagging attacks (unless you count stun and choke which don't really lag more as stop the fighting, or legsweep which got changed so that flying negates it).

That leaves a lot of spec combinations that can't lag a prepped invoker, and proves my point that a lot of characters out there cannot lag a prepped invoker. So, if an invoker is coming for you, knows what skills/specs you have to draw upon and covers those specifically, you aren't going to be able to lag them.

Of course, until this thread I would have said axe/mace is the dumbest spec combo you could choose. Now I'm not so sure. I guess that why they call remarks like yours a nepenthism

>Well, since we're still not up I'll debate the point
>further. First off, you didn't deny that thieves can't lag
>invokers.

That's complicated to answer correctly. Let's say that if an invoker knows he is going to fight a thief within a fairly precise time frame, he should be safe from the thief's lagging attacks. Thing is, in the general case, the invoker shouldn't know that.

> Secondly, maybe I'm wrong here, but only spear,
>mace, and axe have special lagging attacks (unless you count
>stun and choke which don't really lag more as stop the
>fighting, or legsweep which got changed so that flying
>negates it).

That's almost correct.

>That leaves a lot of spec combinations that can't lag a
>prepped invoker, and proves my point that a lot of
>characters out there cannot lag a prepped invoker. So, if
>an invoker is coming for you, knows what skills/specs you
>have to draw upon and covers those specifically, you aren't
>going to be able to lag them.

Three points:

First: As a warrior, there are always going to be spec skills you wish you had, but don't. If I'm not a polearm spec there are a million times I say "Damn, I wish I had charge set right now." If I'm not a hand warrior there are times I wish I had stun, and so on. The point is, you make choices as a warrior when you pick your specs, and they set you up to be better or worse off than other choices in different situations.

Second: Lag is not the answer to all problems. For a warrior vs. invoker, it might be, or it might not be, depending on your specs, cabal, etc.

Third: If you play it right, you can always use bash. I know that sounds crazy.

>Of course, until this thread I would have said axe/mace is
>the dumbest spec combo you could choose. Now I'm not so
>sure. I guess that why they call remarks like yours a
>nepenthism

For a warrior who wanted to fight invokers, that would probably be a pretty good combination.

>Third: If you play it right, you can always use bash. I know that sounds crazy.

How many people know of this though? 4% of the playerbase maybe? And you can bet that the folks who do know will make sure no one else learns it from them.

Note - common sense sometimes goes far in CF. People should learn that.

>How many people know of this though?

Oh, that. You're overthinking. I was just talking about . . . using bash. No tricks.

Unless engineering a situation where an invoker won't (or can't) have a protective shield spell up counts as a trick.

I'm just used to thinking in extremes when it comes to your posts. To be honest, catching an invoker with shield down never really crossed my mind

If only 4% of the playerbase knows how to do that, I feel special. On a sidenote, you talk about thieves and warriors catching people offguard as if it is a simplistic "Duh" answer. Thieves I can understand *slightly*, but as a warrior, how do you intend to ambush a voker? Sure, there are places and times when it *could* be done, in theory and all, but let us be realistic, those are about as remote as (assuming I get into Dullameh's range), Dullameh stumbling into one of my briartangles unprotected under the light of a full moon. Sure, you can try to make it work, you can hope for it, and you can get lucky, but is it something you're really going to dictate as a "strategy"? Not really. I consider a combat strategy as something you think you can reasonably accomplish at least somewhat reproducably. For instance gaunting conjurers are the most predictable people on the planet, which is why I've never understood why any Sylvan should have trouble with them considering most common gaunting places involve passing by where a snare could be set or an ambush ready. *shrug* Even if you catch a voker by surprise, almost always you can count on them having shields up at the least and one upper shield. Now considering your range is a highly limited thing, and you should just about know who will and won't be attacking you, their choice of shield will reflect this, so even with some master ambush strategy, you still have a hell of a disadvantage.

and turned into 100 reasons why invokers are overpowered and can not be defeated by non-rager warriors.

I've played an invoker, and I've played a warrior, and I believe you are misrepresenting both classes. As a non rager warrior, I never felt that one invoker, alone without any kind of backup (eg out of range healer helping him), was any kind of threat insofar as actually killing me, unless he was Ehren. As an invoker, I never felt that one non-rager warrior, alone without any kind of backup (eg out of range healer or invoker helping him), was any kind of threat insofar as actually killing me. But, while playing either class, I gave 100% of my effort to solving the "puzzle" of how to narrow down the opponent's options and nail the kill.

Cathoir asked why the playerbase seemed low on the PK knowledge scale to him, and I wonder if the answer doesn't have a little bit to do with the seemingly popular opinion that invokers are sick and wrong.

Do you want a con for the invoker?

They have no dodge, no shield block, and can only parry three weapons (two of them useless - dagger and whip). They rely on highly-limited preparation items that are a challenge to acquire solo and for which they are in competition for with the rest of the mage playerbase. They also have little room for error and can not afford to underestimate situations or opponents, or there is a good chance they will die.

If you take advantage of an invoker underestimating you or the situation, you win. Being able to do that somewhat reliably is having Cathoir-style PK skills.

PS - Yes, I qualify getting Dullameh to stumble into one of your briars unprotected under a full moon as PK strategy. Ideally, if you're facing quality opposition, they're going to learn from their mistakes and you won't be able to reproduce a "trick" reliably - if you are reproducing the same trick over and over to a witless foe.. isn't that a little boring and unchallenging?

--PS - Yes, I qualify getting Dullameh to stumble into one of your briars unprotected under a full moon as PK strategy. Ideally, if you're facing quality opposition, they're going to learn from their mistakes and you won't be able to reproduce a "trick" reliably - if you are reproducing the same trick over and over to a witless foe.. isn't that a little boring and unchallenging?

-Nah, didn't mean it like that, I'm just stating something along the lines of what Thror was mentioning with routing in a way. The difference being, on a full moon, Dullameh isn't going to be routed my way, few are so I usually have to come up with alternative means. My main point was that you cannot count on blind luck and call it a strategy, and you cannot say that blind luck is supposed to be a factor in determining class strengths/weaknesses. Invokers biggest con IMHO is the fact that people fear them. I should know since the fact that people don't fear me has been my biggest supply of foe-corpses to date. People know to fear invokers, even the newest of newbies, and thus, they know not to take risks, which, over their shields or spells or surprise value or whatever, is their worst con, that is what deprives them of kills.

And you're right about the boring and unchallenging bit, all these people continually script-prac'ing in Prosimy and Barovia need to learn that it is simply asking to die.

On a sidenote Imms, thanks for the carapace change, very cool indeed, a reason to get protective herbs for sure.

My main point was that you cannot count on blind luck and call it a strategy,

Read some of Nep's posts on this thread. "Blind luck" favors the prepared mind. If you engineer a situation where your desired outcome is more likely, it isn't luck.

Page 17 of the Carrion Fields survival manual:
That guy who lucked out and killed you three times wasn't lucky.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>On a sidenote, you talk about thieves and warriors
>catching people offguard as if it is a simplistic "Duh"
>answer.

Actually, what I said was:

Unless engineering a situation where an invoker won't (or can't) have a protective shield spell up counts as a trick.

Jumping an unprepared invoker would be a subset of that, but it isn't the whole thing. Rolling the dice and hoping luck has provided you with an opportunity isn't a bad thing, but better is (so to speak) to use loaded dice. Create a situation in which that character has to be less than prepared, or be where you want, etc.

>Thieves I can understand *slightly*, but as a
>warrior, how do you intend to ambush a voker?

There are a couple ways. The simplest (yet, probably most difficult) is just to move very, very fast.

> Sure, there
>are places and times when it *could* be done, in theory and
>all, but let us be realistic, those are about as remote as
> assuming I get into Dullameh's range), Dullameh stumbling
>into one of my briartangles unprotected under the light of a
>full moon. Sure, you can try to make it work, you can hope
>for it, and you can get lucky, but is it something you're
>really going to dictate as a "strategy"? Not really.

Two points:

First, it's something to add to the bag of tricks. I'm not claiming it's the be-all end-all strategy. It's almost like hanging out near a high level mob when you know a conjurer is going to try to kill you to help deal with his elemental. It's not applicable to every conjurer situation -- it's just one more weapon in your arsenal. As you come up with more and more ideas of things to do in different situations, the number of situations not covered by any of your tactics will decrease.

Second, there's laying that briartangle out in the middle of nowhere, and there's having the foresight to have a pretty good idea of a place your enemy will go in the foreseeable future. It's basically the same thing you said as the gaunting locations, except broaden that principle. Ask yourself, are there places this character needs/wants to go in certain situations? Are there ways I can force or encourage that? Trivial example: If you're carrying food/water in your inventory and I, as a thief, steal it . . . I have a pretty good idea that you're going to be somewhere to buy food soon.

>>Jumping an unprepared invoker would be a subset of that, but it isn't the whole thing. Rolling the dice and hoping luck has provided you with an opportunity isn't a bad thing, but better is (so to speak) to use loaded dice. Create a situation in which that character has to be less than prepared, or be where you want, etc.

Gotta disagree with Cathoir on this whole invoker vs thief thing.
I diced quite a few invokers with Brigvir, catch them recalling, trip them down. Kill them on backstabs out of the blue when they're wandering around galadon thinking they're safe. Just gotta be willing to do what the other guy isn't.. (Corny but true- ie: eat a flag for the kill)

If you're there for a fight, and the invoker knows it.. yes it will become near impossible to finish the kill. But as a rager you have options, and as a non-rager you have even more options. Never fought any vokers with a non rager warrior, but it's not stretch of the imagination to figure out where the advantage is there.

Great now im defending nepenthe whats next?


Well any who here it goes. First of all every spec except sword/dagger/polearm has a lagging attack. Now that leaves the question of your spec combo's if you go cookie cutter yeah sure they are great for everything. Spear/staff can slow down casting, so can axe, so can mace, so can whip, and h2h. If you wanna make a warrior for the sole purpose of killing invokers im sure you can mix and match enough that invkoer can be lagged no matter what type of protective shield he has up. If you wanna go with a traditional cookie cutter choice so that you can kick everyone elses ass thats your choice too. Just dont complain about not being able to do both. That is where balance comes in, if imms wanted a specific spec combo to be the end all and be all of warriors they wouldnt have coded the rest of them in. Every spec has its up's and its downs use them to your benefit.
Now as far as lagging out an invoker goes, why would imms make it so it was easy to lag out an invoker. This is a class that is depends solely on its spell casting to be able to handle itself in pk's. If everyone and their brother could lag an invoker out then there would be no point in playing one now would there, they would exist just to pad the pk ratio's of warriors. But now that I think about it I am certain that a lot of classes have the ability to lag an invoker out.

Assassins got their kicks.
Bards got roundhouse and another nifty little trick.
Thieves got trip and cheap shot, sure you can claim that catching invokers without fly is hard. Thats why you got hide bucko, sneak up on them.
Paladins can slow down casting by shield bash?
Warriors well we already went over that.
AP's can deafen an invoker. And well ap's can trip an invoker too even if he is flying il let you figure out how that works.
Rangers: Hmm tricky one bearcharge is one, im not so certain about entangle I havent played a ranger in a while. But you are welcome to test it out.
Any who thats just off the top of my head im sure other classes have stuff in their arsenal too.


Much Love

Parv

You're pretty much right on all points and for the most part I was merely debating the point since it was debatable. Besides, having you defend Nepenthe was worth keeping the thread alive.

>Great now im defending nepenthe whats next?
>
>
>Well any who here it goes. First of all every spec except
>sword/dagger/polearm has a lagging attack.

Which gets rid of 2 of 3 tanking specs... something most warriors should and will have at least one of.

> Now that leaves
>the question of your spec combo's if you go cookie cutter
>yeah sure they are great for everything. Spear/staff can
>slow down casting, so can axe, so can mace, so can whip, and
>h2h. If you wanna make a warrior for the sole purpose of
>killing invokers im sure you can mix and match enough that
>invkoer can be lagged no matter what type of protective
>shield he has up. If you wanna go with a traditional cookie
>cutter choice so that you can kick everyone elses ass thats
>your choice too. Just dont complain about not being able to
>do both. That is where balance comes in, if imms wanted a
>specific spec combo to be the end all and be all of warriors
>they wouldnt have coded the rest of them in. Every spec has
>its up's and its downs use them to your benefit.
>Now as far as lagging out an invoker goes, why would imms
>make it so it was easy to lag out an invoker. This is a
>class that is depends solely on its spell casting to be able
>to handle itself in pk's. If everyone and their brother
>could lag an invoker out then there would be no point in
>playing one now would there, they would exist just to pad
>the pk ratio's of warriors. But now that I think about it I
>am certain that a lot of classes have the ability to lag an
>invoker out.

Ummm, is it really that unfair for a warrior to get around two rounds of attacks per invoker spell... which often does sick damage? I don't think so.

>Assassins got their kicks.

Tigerclaw is a little more useful i'd wager.

>Bards got roundhouse and another nifty little trick.

Their other nifty trick doesn't go through one of the shields. If you are a bard trying to roundhouse an invoker to death you have other problems you should be dealing with.

>Thieves got trip and cheap shot, sure you can claim that
>catching invokers without fly is hard. Thats why you got
>hide bucko, sneak up on them.

Yea, but arial invokers are IMPOSSIBLE to kill as a thief. Also, once you catch an invoker with his pants down he usually just starts walking around with shield of air constantly when you're around, which is an easy castable fly for invokers. Still though, I was plenty happy to see a non arial invoker around as Vhenos... but defending against them while they're prepped was literally impossible.

>Paladins can slow down casting by shield bash?

See bard comment.

>Warriors well we already went over that.
>AP's can deafen an invoker. And well ap's can trip an
>invoker too even if he is flying il let you figure out how
>that works.

Yes, at least ap's have options.

>Rangers: Hmm tricky one bearcharge is one, im not so certain
>about entangle I havent played a ranger in a while. But you
>are welcome to test it out.

I think there's a shield that stops bearcharge?

>Any who thats just off the top of my head im sure other
>classes have stuff in their arsenal too.
>
>
>Much Love
>
>Parv

>More invokers cons that didn't get a lot of air time in this
>thread(*):
>
>- You can never cover all the ways someone can lag you. If
>an invoker can't reliably cast, they're the worst class in
>the game, possibly excepting transmuters.

Yes, but I don't think this really can be called a con, since you can protect from lagging attacks no other class can protect from. Yes, you can't cover every lagging attack, but this is true of every class except paladins with a specific virtue... so is this really a big con?

>- Concealment limited to Improved Invis and Dig.
>Mobility/pursuit limited to Teleport/Word. It's not hard to
>avoid or surprise an invoker, relative to most other
>classes.

This puts them in the mid-range of concealment/mobility for classes. They have better concealment than warriors, a-ps, paladins, many shapeshifters, bards, berserkers, conjurers, shamans, healers and debatably druids. They have mobility/pursuit as good as or better than that of warriors, bards, thieves, assassins, transmuters, berserkers, druids and rangers. My point is, while this doesn't make it a great strength, it isn't all that weak of a point either, and "most" isn't really accurate.

>- Room Traps: Beat them like you beat Wall of Thorns- keep
>the fight mobile, be unpredictable in your paths, don't pick
>a fight when you start to get the feeling you're in the
>middle of 10 of them, and remember that once they put one
>down, they can't set them up again for a while (in some
>cases)

On the other than, they have them, which is more than can be said for nearly all other classes. This is definitely a strength, not a con.

>- If you have abilities that hurt their mana (we should put
>more ways to do this, as an aside), you can make an invoker
>useless fast- a lot of their better spells cost a ton.
>Shamans and necromancers lead this list.

Nice if you can do it... but as you said, there aren't many ways (as of now, at least).

>- Saving throws, saving throws, saving throws. You hear
>that, Battle? Step away from the charred leather bracer a
>moment. Learn from conjurers, and carry some adjustment
>options in your backpack. If you have a 0-ish save vs.
>spells before warcry/spellbane/etc, and an invoker pushes
>you down and takes your lunch money, don't come crying to
>Uncle Valg.

Yep, this helps, though it doesn't completely negate them the way you can completely frustrate a necromancer if you keep saving.


I honestly don't believe that invokers are sickly overpowered or anything like that... but they are powerful, and your list of cons seemed to be reaching, to me. If I were looking for every possible flaw, I could probably find more for every other class with the possible exception of liches.

>>More invokers cons that didn't get a lot of air time in this
>>thread(*):
>>
>>- You can never cover all the ways someone can lag you. If
>>an invoker can't reliably cast, they're the worst class in
>>the game, possibly excepting transmuters.
>
Yes, but I don't think this really can be called a con, since you can protect from lagging attacks no other class can protect from. Yes, you can't cover every lagging attack, but this is true of every class except paladins with a specific virtue... so is this really a big con?

Yes. Undeniably. The reason for this is because if you lag an invoker, they can't do much of anything. They have one decent physical attack per round, and parry. Whee. While an assassin might not have many ways to stop you from lagging him, he's in very good shape even if lagged. Heck, in a lot of fights, that assassin is probably very happy if you're expending all your energy tripping him.

Invokers are the most vulnerable class when lagged, so they have a lot of customization to allow them to plan for it if you let them have that preparation and make the choices. Everyone in this thread keeps assuming the invoker is fighting total morons who stand in a field and wait for the invoker to come.

>>- Concealment limited to Improved Invis and Dig.
>>Mobility/pursuit limited to Teleport/Word. It's not hard to
>>avoid or surprise an invoker, relative to most other
>>classes.

This puts them in the mid-range of concealment/mobility for classes.

Huh? I can choose whether or not I want to fight an invoker 90% of the time. This is also true of warriors (though I can't disengage from a warrior nearly as easily). Other classes either have ways to sneak up on me (hide, duo, camo, summon, flyto, etc.), pursue me (gate, tess, clairvoy/aud, flyto, etc.), cut off my escape routes (curse, energy drain, movement drains, etc.), incapacitate me (cold be sleep, sleep, blackjack, etc.) etc. Invokers can't reliably do those things well. Room traps are helpful here, but they have a long list of their own drawbacks, notably setup time and high mana cost.

>I honestly don't believe that invokers are sickly
>overpowered or anything like that... but they are powerful,
>and your list of cons seemed to be reaching, to me. If I
>were looking for every possible flaw, I could probably find
>more for every other class with the possible exception of
>liches.

The bottom line on invokers remains that no one is cleaning house with them. Dakizar kills a fair number of people (and loses sometimes), but Force Duel is a strong complement to the invoker class, and it's a very rare ability- not something we plan to downgrade the whole class over. If invokers are overpowered, where are they?

If you can't answer that last question, check your assumptions.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>>>- You can never cover all the ways someone can lag you. If
>>>an invoker can't reliably cast, they're the worst class in
>>>the game, possibly excepting transmuters.

>Invokers are the most vulnerable class when lagged, so they
>have a lot of customization to allow them to plan for it
>if you let them have that preparation and make the
>choices. Everyone in this thread keeps assuming the
>invoker is fighting total morons who stand in a field and
>wait for the invoker to come.

I think transmuters are much more vulnerable, as you pointed out earlier. There are also some more classes that are vulnerable when lagged: healer, shaman, and bard, in addition to transmuters and invokers. In fact, I'd probably rather be playing an invoker with some shields and their touch getting lagged than any of the others. Possible exception with the healer with every resistance up. We can also add necros, conjurers, and druids to this list when they don't have their groupies, and shapeshifters not in form. The key here (and as you point out) is in the preparation. Invokers, unlike the rest mentioned, can protect themselves from most fighting-class lagging. Sorry ragers. Time for the rest to start adding resist element potions to their list of preps.

This might surprise you, but I've had characters get as hurt from the invokers' touch during a fight as he did from the spells. Some of us still haven't played a cookie-cutter arial sword spec or a felar staff spec, so it actually does hurt.

In my sometimes humble opinion, I'd toss some more spells at the transmuters before adding a half dozen more detect hidden shapeshifter forms or a half dozen more invoker spells. Then again, I'd probably remove barrier altogether too. Must-resist-urge-to-play-nasty-mage.

Hutto, with some sleepy thoughts

Hutto

--Yes, but I don't think this really can be called a con, since you can protect from lagging attacks no other class can protect from. Yes, you can't cover every lagging attack, but this is true of every class except paladins with a specific virtue... so is this really a big con?

-Yes. Undeniably. The reason for this is because if you lag an invoker, they can't do much of anything. They have one decent physical attack per round, and parry. Whee. While an assassin might not have many ways to stop you from lagging him, he's in very good shape even if lagged. Heck, in a lot of fights, that assassin is probably very happy if you're expending all your energy tripping him.

-Invokers are the most vulnerable class when lagged, so they have a lot of customization to allow them to plan for it if you let them have that preparation and make the choices. Everyone in this thread keeps assuming the invoker is fighting total morons who stand in a field and wait for the invoker to come.

Here I would disagree. One physical attack per round, plus parry, plus innate dam reduction, plus the ability to get much more. I don't know about you, but once I've been over level 35 or so, I've never been uber-lagged by any one person with or without cheapshot. They always miss or get a 1 round bash or what have you, and since I'm one of those freaks with perma-stoneskin and when I see my enemies the quaffing begins, when I'm fighting solo, getting uberlagged isnt' usually an option. So what do you do in this situation? You flee and you put up your shield, then kick the living tar out of them. In gangbang situations, you are right, being lagged as a voker is nasty, because they can easily be overlagged if they are missing their shields, however, if I'm getting caught and naield by an axe spec, I'm not much of a great invoker anyway. As for the lag comment, an arcane shifter is at a much much higher disadvantage. Likewise an unsanc'd healer is also at a higher disadvant (hey, you're saying this person is surprised right?), as well as numerous other situations where, if they were as surprised as a voker walking around without the proper shielding, would be nailed just as easily if not easier. We don't assume that everyone just waits to die, we assume that oftentimes we'll have to fight them while raiding/retrieving/defending, or when they are in groups with others, or we'll have to do something other then sit around in some remote location for an hour waiting for them to stumble by. You make it sound like invokers have these huge drawbacks, when, as Brotmin stated, they're fairly standard.

>
>>Can you remember the last really scary ranger?
>
>Hegobi, but, well...Delanan. If we move down the ranks from
>Hero there have been plenty of deathful rangers.
>
Delanan? Only one I can think of that even remotely scared me was Phinitz. Others could kill me if I got careless, but Phinitz had talent.

>
>>Or the last Orc that ruled the school?
>
>Nazgauga, but, well...Entropy. Grumplestein, Chuntog,
>Mordizzug were all pretty hoss.
>
I don't want to leak past chars, but I mopped up with all of these.

>
>>How about a thief that terrorized the populace?
>
>Barczack, but, well...Ehren. Nvranjol? Jubair?
>
>They were annoying, but not scary like Matrien or Wollscheid were scary.


>>An arcane transmuter that was more than a one trick pony?
>
>There are plenty of one trick ponies that I consider
>extremely scary. Rituuraj for example, but, well....Dale
>cemetery.
>
Never heard of him. And why is everyone so scared of the cemetary? They key ain't hard to find.

>
>>And when you compare these classes to classes such as conjurors
>>and transmuters that can feasibly be dynamos with only
>>minimal practice...someone high up must like playing 'em,
>>because if game "balance" is what you're aiming for...
>
>I found it far more difficult to kill people with my LG
>Conjie and air/offense tranny than with my thieves and
>assassins. Unfortunately I never hero'd any of the thieves
>and assassins, so maybe that would change my mind. But I
>killed more people from ranks 1-35 with each deleted
>assassin/thief than my air/offense shifter did over 350
>hours. Not for lack of effort either.

You're given me the sad sack with a LG char? And sure, you can sit at lvl 30 with a human thief and be the boss. Hell, I did it for a month or so with Enbuergo. But after you rape that stupid storm giant who just doesn't learn so many times, it gets boring. Let's focus on hero level play, alrighty?


>>I don't play thieves for the firepower, I play them because
>>I like being the underdog (and underdogs they are). I can
>>steal. I can annoy. I am quite a capable killer...but John
>>Q Average Cf'er can be five times the killer I am by
>>choosing air/offense as his next shifter form (not to
>>mention an instant built in cloaking device just by typing
>>"fly").
>
>Assuming I'm not a rager, can't see hidden and don't have
>perma-fly, I'm going to be more scared of the "competant and
>well-geared" thief than of the "competant and well-geared"
>air/offense shifter. Unless perhaps the shifter is acting
>as scout for a huge roaming gang. Say you're playing a
>warrior with a race vuln. Would you rather be chased by a
>Viornsra (sans acidic bite) or jacked by an Enbuergo?

Good question. Let me answer it like this: I would rather be jacked by an Enbuergo than chased by ME in an airform. If I fail the bind, or land a weak backstab with Enb, bye bye...anyone who has half a brain can run away. Fortunately, the recent trend in the cf populace is to leave their brains at home.


>
>>I would imagine not too many immortals watch me, not
>>being in a cabal and all, but I wish someone was trailing me
>>the time I tripped and killed Shilite, landing every
>>cheapshot, and almost dying myself just to his shield. If
>>he had cast a spell--even one--it woulda been coitans.
>
>To me, you just shot down your own argument with this one
>phrase, "hitting every cheapshot". You took a class like
>Invoker, which many people bitch and moan about being
>overpowered, and killed him without him having *any* chance
>to escape. There was nothing he could do but sit there and
>watch himself die. That's not overpowered?

Hitting every cheapshot. Have any idea how lucky that was? Even at 100%? ONE spell off and I woulda died. One. And I'm not bitching or moaning: I'm responding to a point about balance. When extreme fluke luck keeps someone in combat for several ticks (yes, ticks, not rounds--it took me that long to kill him through shields), I have a hard time hearing about how I'm shooting down my own argument.



>I think the point of miscommunication between players and
>staff is in what each means by "overpowered". Most of those
>who complain seem to define it as "difficult or impossible
>to take down in a straight up fight". This would certainly
>include classes like paladin, good conjurer, shifter, and
>invoker. I think the staff, however, consider a class to be
>"overpowered" if it can be used by a skilled player to
>*completely discount* opponents' skill and preparation. In
>other words, if you can use a class/race/cabal combo to bowl
>over highly competant people using an easily repeatable
>method, then that class/race/cabal combo is overpowered.

I still maintain I could do this with ease. And no, I'm not going to, so don't bother telling me to roll up a conjuror to see how tough they really have it.

>A good example of this would be Rituraaj and the Dale
>cemetery. When gaunted there was little chance to escape,
>even if you were carrying the key. So changes were made to
>disable this strategy. Another one is Delanan, the sylvan
>shaman with wall and insects. It's now extremely difficult
>to reproduce this combo.
>
>Given this, I'd put at the top of the list necros, assasins,
>conjies, druids, rangers, and maybe thieves and invokers.
>

I can see where you're coming from, but you're wrong on a few counts. Rangers and thieves are nowhere near the top "pure power"-wise. Smart players can do well with them, but could do better if they wanted *pure pking power* with other classes (by the way, shamen should but up there--just because we've had a rash of incompetant shamen lately doesn't mean they aren't powerful).


>Necros:
>Pros: Sleep + forget + curse + scourge/etc.
>Cons: Skilled people will see you coming and act
>accordingly. Also save vs. spell.

Unfriggin believable powers. But they earn it by getting an ass beating by people like me for 40 ranks. No complaints there.

>
>Conjies:
>Pros: Gaunts + wands + mazey cursed places.
>Cons: Skilled people will take precautions not to be
>gaunted. Furthermore, gaunting is a time-consuming and
>frustrating process.

Gaunts have been, and always will be, completely ridiculous. I will keep saying this until nail shut my coffin.

>
>Assassins:
>Pros: Assassinate.
>Cons: Not many. Skilled or not, unless you have certain
>virtues or can see hidden there's the possibility you'll get
>taken down.

No argument here

>
>Druids:
>Pros: The Hunt. What a crock.
>Cons: Limited to a certain time of the month. Skilled
>people will avoid wildnerss like the plague during this
>time.

Druids can be scary son. Trust me.

>
>Rangers:
>Pros: Snare + bearcharge + scroll use.
>Cons: People can *somewhat* avoid wildneress areas. Bash
>protection nullifies bearcharge.

Stupid people tend to favor rangers, although this doesn't really have anything to do with anything *wink*

>Thieves:
>Pros: Jack + steal + cheap shot + bind + scroll use. Ugly.
>Cons: Not many.

Cons: Only 4 skills to use in combat, three of which are disarm, kick, and dirt kick. Woo.

>Invokers:
>Pros: Invulnerable to most lag, insane damage. Quicksand +
>earthbind.
>Cons: Hard to lag others. With utility spells this argument
>loses force.

Not only does it lose force, this argument is busy pushing up daisies

>Delanan? Only one I can think of that even remotely scared me was >Phinitz. Others could kill me if I got careless, but Phinitz had >talent.

Before your time it seems....Delanan was no ranger, he was a sylvan shaman. What Isildur said was the Hegobi(very skilled ranger) ran around with delanan and that was a extermely sick combo.

>Nazgauga, but, well...Entropy. Grumplestein, Chuntog,
>Mordizzug were all pretty hoss.
>
>I don't want to leak past chars, but I mopped up with all of these.

Killed or just beat them, there is a major differense. One average player that plays a lg conjie that preps some will can make someone like Dhaevor running, but will have a damn hard time killing him.

>extremely scary. Rituuraj for example, but, well....Dale
>cemetery.
>
>Never heard of him. And why is everyone so scared of the cemetary? >They key ain't hard to find.

Rituraaj was a scarab conjie that kept gaunting people to the dale, and sure some people understood that afterawhile and always carried around a key. But the less skilled players did not and so they died alot. Thus making him feared..(he was skilled ofcourse)


>Gaunts have been, and always will be, completely ridiculous. I will >keep saying this until nail shut my coffin.

Uhm, gaunts is an extremely timeconsuming and not often succesful buisness.


And finally, rangers, thiefs and other fighting classes are not as powerful as most mages at herp sure. But people are just forgetting how good they are for groups, defending. As they can LAG.. I've survived so many times just because no one was there to lag me. Mage zap someone with earthbind wand, thief starts tripping. Two large groups thief starts jacking people. And rangers with snare...

But most people wants to be powerhouses alone, and sure I can see that.

>They were annoying, but not scary like Matrien or Wollscheid were scary.

Matraien had a sick-ass form. Not comparable to today's air forms. No, I'm not saying he isn't skilled. Clearly he is. Just saying that a modern-day Matraien isn't really possible. Not only did air forms get downgrdaed, shifters lost halt, et. al.


>Never heard of him. And why is everyone so scared of the
>cemetary? They key ain't hard to find.

Evil scarab conjie. Could locate the key then gaunt whoever wasn't carrying it. Even with the key you had a prepped conjie with ice devil and nasty elemental after you who knew what part of the cemetery you were gaunted to (whereas you didn't). You also had to worry about running into aggro mobs while running to the exit. In any case, this is sort of a side issue to the main topic.


>You're given me the sad sack with a LG char? And sure, you
>can sit at lvl 30 with a human thief and be the boss. Hell,
>I did it for a month or so with Enbuergo. But after you
>rape that stupid storm giant who just doesn't learn so many
>times, it gets boring. Let's focus on hero level play,
>alrighty?

Okay, I'll consider only hero range from here on out.


>Good question. Let me answer it like this: I would rather
>be jacked by an Enbuergo than chased by ME in an airform.
>If I fail the bind, or land a weak backstab with Enb, bye
>bye...anyone who has half a brain can run away.

*If* you fail the bind. Personally I'm more worried about Enbuergo than an Enbuergo-played air form, depending of course on what class I'm playing at the time.


>Fortunately, the recent trend in the cf populace is to leave
>their brains at home.

Agreed.


>Hitting every cheapshot. Have any idea how lucky that was?
>Even at 100%? ONE spell off and I woulda died. One.

Nobody said an invoker with shields is an easy kill. Invoker without shields, on the other hand, really is. Also, no need to get all belligerant on me. I didn't intend my comment about you "shooting down your own argument" to be any sort of "slam". Hopefully we can remain civil.


>I can see where you're coming from, but you're wrong on a
>few counts. Rangers and thieves are nowhere near the top
>"pure power"-wise. Smart players can do well with them, but
>could do better if they wanted *pure pking power* with other
>classes (by the way, shamen should but up there--just
>because we've had a rash of incompetant shamen lately
>doesn't mean they aren't powerful).

Rather than respond to each class example, I'll make a general comment about where I think we disagree. Tell me if I'm wrong. When I talk about classes being overpowered, I'm talking about those with some "trick" that can nail me to the wall no matter how skilled, well-geared, well-practiced and obsessively paranoid I am. And I can be pretty darn paranoid. It's all about, "who has the means to kill me," which usually boils down to, "who has the ability to catch me off guard," and "who has the ability to keep me from fleeing."

Also, just because there are some people a given class can't handle (i.e. perma-fliers for thieves) it doesn't mean (to me) that the class isn't extremely powerful. To me, if there is *anyone* a class can completely uber-screw, then an argument can be made that the class is "overpowered". The point is that no class in the game should be able to completely *negate* the influence of his opponent's player's skill.

Outside of gaunts, no goodie conjurer is going to catch me off guard. Likewise no goodie conjurer is going to keep me in combat unless he's wanded up and has an angel to bash. So as badly as they could kick my ass if I stuck around, I don't consider them a threat since I can pretty much leave whenever I want to. Same for paladins. Can't permalag me, and usually can't do enough damage to two-round me. Only thing I'm really worried about with paladins is summon, and then only if they're summoning me into a gang.

Contrast this with a thief or ranger. It's not realistic for most people to spend their entire life outside of the wilderness or outside of cities/roads. Sooner or later I'm going to have to venture into one or the other. Here's where the question of, "who has the means to kill me," kicks in. Say I get stuck in a cloud ranger's snare and I'm playing a class without word of recall or bash protection. Sure, it's not likely, but unless I'm content to staying out of the wilderness sooner or later I may get caught. He enlarges and hastes himself, wields axes that exploit my race vuln (if one exists). Worse yet, calls over his buddies. Bearcharge, bearcharge, etc.

Anyway, just my thoughts. To me it's all about what class is most likely to catch me off guard and have the ability to prevent my escape.

>Necros:
>Pros: Sleep + forget + curse + scourge/etc.
>Cons: Skilled people will see you coming and act
>accordingly. Also save vs. spell.
Additional pros: summon + zombie armie + Lich
These people are 1 man killing machines at the higher level. There is little defense and the Lich well there is no one person that can kill a lich alone. Way over powered, when on as a hero, I am almost waiting to die to him for I know if he does find me, it is over and no amout of prep items will stop him.

>Thieves:
>Pros: Jack + steal + cheap shot + bind + scroll use.
>Cons: Not many.
Cons are you kidding.. No way to bring down something that is flying. When fighting solo only additional damage - Kick, Great start(dual backstab) lousy after, its trip or kick(without scrolls).


Of them all I see thieves as the weakest of them all and the necromancer as the king of them all. The only good news about the necromancer is there is so few of these Liches about(can you immagin if there where 4 Liches out there at the same time *shiver*)

> There is little defense and the Lich well there is no one
>person that can kill a lich alone.

I'm not interested in getting into the details, but I've played that from both sides and that's so not true.

>Way over powered, when
>on as a hero, I am almost waiting to die to him for I know
>if he does find me, it is over and no amout of prep items
>will stop him.

Of course someone's going to beat you if you already decide you can't win.

Hint: Despite what you may think, prep items are only a small part of the tactics to this game.


>Of them all I see thieves as the weakest of them all and the
>necromancer as the king of them all.

If you don't think thieves are any good, don't play them. If you think more like a thief and less like a warrior with blackjack, thieves are pretty formidable even at hero. Midlevel, they're so good I'm not even sure how it's fun.

>If you don't think thieves are any good, don't play them. If you >think more like a thief and less like a warrior with blackjack, >thieves are pretty formidable even at hero. Midlevel, they're so >good I'm not even sure how it's fun.

Well, don't forget to take into account that thieves have ##### hp and no bash protection. They're pretty much the same as necromancers up until 40, tremendously fragile but whole lot of killing power. The only difference is that necros can split groups apart with summon, takes true skill to take down 3 with a thief. Fun, though.

I wasn't complaining or saying that I hate these things. I think the classes each have good and down points each can be fun and each can be a bitch. However I have to say, that your theoretical arguement does not hold water, that it is possible to beat a Lich one on one, make them flee yes, kill them???(I don't consider them beat unless I am over there corpse) I have never heard of a Lich being killed in a one on one. I know you have extra insight as to how they opperate, but have you ever killed a Lich one on one?

As for thieves I actually think they are quite fine. I was commenting to the fellow before that said they had no down side. As for making them the weakest that is only because they are much more limited than any other class in skills/spells that they can use. I think overall they are fine.

>I have never heard of a Lich being killed in a one
>on one. I know you have extra insight as to how they
>opperate, but have you ever killed a Lich one on one?

Yep, and I'll additionally go you one better than that. I've *been* killed as a lich one on one. . . a couple times, even. Hell, you might even able to find logs of it if you dig around for old Istendil stuff.

If a lich gets to pick all of the circumstances of how/when/where/etc. he will fight you, odds are extremely good he's going to win. You don't have to let that happen.

>>I have never heard of a Lich being killed in a one
>>on one. I know you have extra insight as to how they
>>opperate, but have you ever killed a Lich one on one?
>
>Yep, and I'll additionally go you one better than that.
>I've *been* killed as a lich one on one. . . a couple times,
>even. Hell, you might even able to find logs of it if you
>dig around for old Istendil stuff.
>
>If a lich gets to pick all of the circumstances of
>how/when/where/etc. he will fight you, odds are extremely
>good he's going to win. You don't have to let that happen.

Zinla killed Hvitlok 1 on 1
Zulghinlour killed Draktha 1 on 1

Pick and choose your targets and places to be, and even a lich can die 1 on 1.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Leika killed Valguarnera 1 on 1. Twice! A new record!

(My other lichly PK death was to an ambush by about twenty Sylvans and friends.)

I also saw Reddyn get killed 1 on 1 if memory serves.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Leika killed Valguarnera 1 on 1. Twice! A new record!
>
> My other lichly PK death was to an ambush by about twenty
>Sylvans and friends.)
>
>I also saw Reddyn get killed 1 on 1 if memory serves.

I believe it was more like six. *blink*
And only 3 did anything. Plus Isildur for spotting you.

I had various schemes to get you.. finally had one that worked
(two invokers). Typically I'm against large gangbang groups,
but liches are so far off the balance spectrum that the rule
there is "do anything you can". Largely because any time they
have a vuln a phylactery comes along to negate it. I think
liches deserve a champion's stand phylactery.

I killed Coriolanius two on six, though, where I was part of
the 2. Mine and Hegobi's finest moment.

>I believe it was more like six. *blink*
>And only 3 did anything. Plus Isildur for spotting you.

I felt sort of like the ground troops whose job it is to "paint" a target so it can be bombed from afar. "Lich in the Basilica. Kill." Honestly the last thing the rest of the mud needed was for you to have a bird scouting for you, but I was so glad just be *in* the cabal after such a long wait that I would've done pretty much anything. Ah, the good old days...

My dawnie hero warrior beat draktha one on one, and that was before I knew anything about preps.

>Can you remember the last really scary ranger?

>>Hegobi, but, well...Delanan. If we move down the ranks from Hero >>there have been plenty of deathful rangers.

Yeah, Hegobi was good at what he did, but he was hardly hell on wheels. Delanan, who was a shaman by the way, even made MY ranger look like a beast when we hunted. Not to say he needed me, as Delanan was quite capable of killing people by himself.

>>Rangers:
>>Pros: Snare + bearcharge + scroll use.
>>Cons: People can *somewhat* avoid wildneress areas. Bash protection >>nullifies bearcharge.

Unless you're a cloud giant, bearcharge is simply not an effective skill. I've seen people get lagged fighting a giant ranger but not an enlarged felar or human ranger. Yes, this is in a wilderness area too. For scrolls, you have the opportunity to recite them on yourself, great. Forget about reciting on a snared person - that initiates combat. Why not waylay instead?

>For scrolls, you
>have the opportunity to recite them on yourself, great.
>Forget about reciting on a snared person - that initiates
>combat. Why not waylay instead?

For what it's worth, the last time I played a decently high level ranger I used both scrolls and staves (as in, on other players as opposed to on myself) at times. In my opinion, sometimes waylay is the right answer, and sometimes it isn't.

Even just recite/brandish on yourself is a pretty good utility ability. For example, aura/shield staves/scrolls tend to be an easier thing to deal with than potions of the same.

>Yeah, Hegobi was good at what he did, but he was hardly hell
>on wheels. Delanan, who was a shaman by the way, even made
>MY ranger look like a beast when we hunted.

This was my point. However good Hegobi was, having Delanan at his side made him that much better. I'm quite aware Delanan was a shaman. He inducted my sylvan.


>Unless you're a cloud giant, bearcharge is simply not an
>effective skill.

And cloud giant is one of the possible races you can choose. I was considering the ranger class at its "apex" power-wise.

>For scrolls, you
>have the opportunity to recite them on yourself, great.
>Forget about reciting on a snared person - that initiates
>combat. Why not waylay instead?

Because they can word/flee? That's like saying, "Why not backstab?"

Say my cloud ranger snares some poor thief going to get preps. I'm hasting myself. I'm enlarging myself. I'm dual-wielding axes. Then I'm bearcharging him into oblivion.

>>Yeah, Hegobi was good at what he did, but he was hardly hell
>>on wheels. Delanan, who was a shaman by the way, even made
>>MY ranger look like a beast when we hunted.
>
>This was my point. However good Hegobi was, having Delanan
>at his side made him that much better. I'm quite aware
>Delanan was a shaman. He inducted my sylvan.
>

We didn't hunt together very often. We'd hang out because
Jagaub is a cool guy and his chars are usually entertaining
to be around, but to be bluntly honest, PKing with him was
no fun. It was just too easy. It got to the point where we'd
be grouped, he'd snare someone, and I wouldn't help him
because there was no challenge.

He was one of the best rangers I've run into.. off the top
of my head, I'd say the best 3 fairly recent ones were
Jugynheim, Hegobi, and.. damn, I can't remember the other one.
He was around when Challen was playing Human Conj #32.
Cloud sylvan, had a title and Holtzendorff's tat. I remember
what the strong rumor on who his player was, though.
He was pretty beastly. And major honorable mentions to Malaglen
for kicking some ass with a human.

Ah, memories.
"You're lawful? That's not good."
"I need the heart of 94 galadon guildguards!"
And of course.
" Kiac: I was so close to ranking when I died in logath again!!!!"
Poor Kiac.

n/t

The game is much more balanced now (char/class wise).
Cabals more balanced as well now.

The IMMs monitor perma grouping much more now (no more Palan/Jagr, Arolin/Zharradam and the like) gangbanging permagroups. Or, they just have to watch their asses more now.

Over abundance of protections make people more careless and can make people take chances they normally would not, leading to death.

IRC groups have made info dissemination too rampant, therefore people are used to getting spoon fed info and items. They become equipped like a God but they couldn't PK their way out of a paper bag which takes years of experience to really excel at (there really is no substitute for actual experience in pking). I actualy like this because it makes that equipment all the more easy for me to acquire. People have started to rely on equipment to PK, not their own skills. Look at all the shifters. All they are gonna learn is the location of a few a/b/s and flyto/murder. You aren't gonna learn natural pk talent that way.

The weak players gravitate to larger cabals where gangbanging is the norm. Here, they don't learn independence, they just learn how to spam (insert lagging attack here) while the few competent ones lead the group.

I think there will always be some skilled Pkers who rely on themselves, not others (eg. Manarie, Drucyrus, Loborguz) but by far, most people are content to gangbang. I think several years ago, the same ratio still existed, only the gangbangers were more rampant back then due to lack of monitoring of the permas by the Imms and OOC stuff went pretty well unchecked. The result, obliterated pk ranges whenever one of these groups would log in together. This doesn't happen as much today so maybe that is why the body count may be lower today.

Finally, distention is a huge factor in reducing pking. Most people lean how to pk at the low ranks and then progress to the midranks. With this pking now effectively capped, people will find themselves at hero with significantly fewer successful pk's than in the past. Result: less battle experienced heros.

Of course, continuously making new charcaters and pking with them can get around this but I am not sure many people are willing to put in the time to keep making new characters and practice their stuff up just so they can distend badly and delete.

Perhaps these are a few reasons for the seemingly pk inept hero range today.

Your point on the shifters is valid. It's pretty dang tough to learn how to actually play the game when all you can do is prep, shift, and murder. About IRC though...I remember a day when everyone used to hang out in irc and have fun. Twist, Nepenthe a bit, Thror, and Zulghinlour just to name a few imms. Don't hate the roots yo.

Distention honestly has no effect on pking in the lowbie-midbie ranks.

Most of the good pk'rs learned pking the hard way. They would get nailed by groups a few times a session by other groups. Then, either they would dust themselves off and learn what the others did to win, or they would whine on the forums about the lack of roleplay (boohoo). I remember wars involving neosoft (ragers), diku (empire), and smuggers (masters) decimating each other and everyone in between. The highlight of CF for me was being in battle during the Dhaevor/Rezkirat/Minalcar years. We died. A lot. In one hour. It was rough living, but I can't remember having more fun anywhere else.

I think the biggest thing missing from CF is good cabal wars. Massive cabal wars forge the pk instinct. I just hope it's not something of the past.

My ramblings.