I feel like grinding out obse/explore has almost become a job. If you don't go out and explore areas at the prime levels you lose out on those points! So now I'm forced to do this(having edges is a HUGE advantage) With my last few chars I said to myself that I would just play and forget about getting edges(big mistake) I guess I just need to get over the fact that edges are needed in order to be somewhat competitive, time to go grind out those areas! =)

Edges are a very potent carrots (kudos to the IMMs who did all that and continue to tweak them). People want them, and will sacrifice time and enjoyment to obtain them if they must.

Things that can earn you edge points should probably:

1) Not take away from time spent playing your char (as opposed to grinding alone)
2) Encourage some behavior that is positive for the game.
3) Not make you feel like you're being punished/taxed

One of the few ways that meet these criteria is an age based system. I know it's been suggested before, but it's worth looking at some of the likely benefits.

If you want that edged out char, you begin with one that you plan to play for a long time.

This would encourage:
- better thought out chars with better roles
- Chars that are around longer
- Fewer throw-away chars
- People to have and play fewer chars
- Better interactions if you know you want this char to last.

It would also be nice for chars that are long-lived to have something on that green-horn power ranker that just appeared in your range. And it makes sense that you would pick these skills up over your many years of study.

I've always agreed with the sentiment that a char at 500 hours should have way more edges then a 100 hour char. Edges should be a factor of longevity, not of efficient farming which is what most of the PB has reduced it to. All they want is the most points the earliest they can to have PK advantages.

I do believe even as it is Old Age characters have lots of perks.
Old age yields skill perfection in pretty much every skill as compared to young chars, and generally the old guys will have more edges just by far more opportunities to earn points in the form of pk, role xp, cabal xp, imm xp.

The obs/xp system, the more I see people try to farm it as if it was some mandatory grind, makes me think it needs to go away completely.

Instead, give every char seasoned traveler, twitchy, wise recovery (they all seem sort of generally age and experience related)

At 75 hours you get seasoned traveler.
At 150 hours you get Wise Recovery.
At 200 hours you get Twitchy.
At 300 hours points to spend freely, and the same for every 100 hours there til you die.

Seems like a better system, and edges would more be a little more reflective of longevity.

No matter what the system, CFers will try to farm it. So really, eliminating their ability to do so is the only workable and equitable for all players solution. At this point, obs/explore are the most farmable things, and generally appears to also be the most broken in terms of the disparity it creates between highly skilled and newer players (speaking solely in the edge point arena). Though PK tiers is also pretty bad.

There are areas I have fully explored ONLY because I was grinding exp/obs. I would've never gone there w/o this incentive, and experience of exploring the hidden content was AWESOME.

Not to mention that obs/exp is one of the MAJOR incentives for newer players to learn the game and thus adding to their becoming "highly skilled".

There are powerful limited preps that are almost always in that seemingly very few people know about.

There are super-useful unlimited preps that no one ever uses spread all over the place.

There's valuable stuff stuck in corners all over Thera waiting to be sold or bartered that take next to no effort to acquire.

The XP that you gain from finding all this out is just the icing on the cake.

I think there are little ppl who are into gear and preps. Gathering those is a chore and is generally un-fun (at least for me). Many people (me included) prefer investing into the character, not preps/gear. Hence edges are valued way above eq knowledge. For example most builds I play are based around one idea "I want to be competitive in PK w/o preps and gear". Edges help with that, knowing where to get stuff doesn't.

So as a result knowing that when I explore I find many new things doesn't incentivize me to go exploring. Getting that extra 500 ExpExp, on the other hand, somehow does.

P.S. I get your point though, it's totally valid.

I don't understand your reasoning, please explain.

You enjoyed exploring a couple areas you would have missed w/o exp/obs to encourage you, therefore, everyone should have to spend many real life hours going places they have been and looking at things that they have seen for the 30th time for every char?

To your second point, if one cannot see more compelling reasons to explore unfamiliar territory than exp, then they are simply ignorant of some much better reasons:

Knowing where you're foe is in an area (i.e. not dying)
...where your prey is in an area.
...where you or a foe can rank.
...where you or a foe can get gear.
...where you or foe can get preps.
...where you or your foe can hide.
...where the necro may be building his army.
...where the nightgaunt may be carrying you.
...etc.

Suffice to say, better incentives already exist.

I love exploring new areas, I just don't enjoy being compelled to explore the same area over and over and over. I enjoy the areas and appreciate the work that went into them. But, if I had to 'enjoy' the water color of a desert sunset that hangs in my living room for 5 minutes every time I walked in my house, I'd eventually burn it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p4XyYcZ5Es

I can't say I enjoy exploring every new area. Some, yes. That said, I enjoy the benefits of having explored most areas, which are basically the ones you listed. So, for me, exploring is largely a means to an end.

I come with presuposition that I:

1) know the areas typically used for ranking;
2) know the often-travelled areas;
3) script my area-explore routines the first time I learn it, so when I do it with a next character I just go "exploreHTOS" and run about it in a few seconds; doesn't work with many areas with agro mobs, but most of the time it's fine;

What I say is that for me (and I consider myself not being unique) edge incentive beats other incentives for exploring new areas. So if you remove obs/exp, I most likely will stop exploring (not that anyone cares, of course, but e.g. those awesome two hours I've spent in Kobold Warrens would certainly be missing).

P.S. I didn't encounter a single nightgaunt in 10 months I've been playing.

P.P.S. Thanks to Umiron for Kobold Warrens hint, that one led to an exciting experience.

nt

And if you're obsessed with edges, you just script those.

You are pretty unique in the CF universe.
People explore for the other reasons, they farm the points afterwards. Most Cfers have run Trothon or whatever 50 times, they've done the exploration, they know what there is to know to a very large degree. They farm it now sure, but they also know why and when to go there for other reasons. Knowing areas and actually knowing what is in them and why people would go there are very different things.

Edge point incentives tied to obs/exp are among the least of incentives to go to a new area.
Edges die with your char, area knowledge does not.
Knowing where and how to get gear and preps will enable me to kick the crap out of your char even if I have zero edges.
You take the approach to CF that people playing 10 years do. The problem is they have area knowledge that generally you won't have. That means you're unlikely to ever reach their level.

The general CF hierarchy of winning a PK to me goes like this. (ignoring race/class/cabal and such)
Skill>gear>preps>skill%s>edges
So if you think focusing on that bottom tier is meaningful because edges are permanent for your char I would suggest you're taking the wrong approach.
Why not prac everything once and spam up for extra hours, that way you get 50 extra pracs which means 50 more permanent HPs?
Because ultimately, it's not worth the time, because your char will die. The only things that are transferrable from char to char is knowledge, not stats/edges.

Focus on the other benefits of exploration if you actually want to improve, not getting an edge that adds 5% damage to call lightning or whatever.

Edges can be nice.
But they are very far from the end all be all of CF.
Delve into the other aspects just as much and you'll thank yourself later if you keep playing CF.

The subject is, of course, utterly false, with no reasoning given.

There are variable and fixed factors for character success in PK. Race/class/edges/skill% are fixed. Skill/gear/preps are variable. You try to reason that variable > fixed. That thought is plainly erratic, they're different and cannot be compared.

P.S. Oh and you don't get my idea. I say that obs/exp incentivize exploring better than learning preps and other sophisticated stuff. "Edges being end all be all of CF" is not my statement, it's your perception, which is kinda wrong. Indepth area knowledge will make you a stronger player indeed, but the thing is that you will start caring about it after you play CF for 10 years and exhaust other means of making your characters stronger and will find it fun to play otherwise handicapped characters like Torak does.

>I've always agreed with the sentiment that a char at 500
>hours should have way more edges then a 100 hour char. Edges
>should be a factor of longevity, not of efficient farming

Agree and disagree.

Agree: Edge points should not be influenced by one's skill at and/or willingness to engage in farming.

Disagree: Edge points should be awarded solely based on character age.

If that were the case, the only thing we'd be incentivizing is longevity. IMO it should be possible to use edge points to incentivize other behaviors that are also good for the game.

>No matter what the system, CFers will try to farm it. So
>really, eliminating their ability to do so is the only
>workable and equitable for all players solution.

Agree: Eliminating the ability to farm is the only way to prevent people farming because CFers are perfectly willing to trade "time doing boring stuff" for PK advantage.

Disagree: Ceasing to award edge points based on observation/exploration xp is the only way to prevent farming.

See my proposal elsewhere in this thread.

It's really helpful.

Obs/Exploration exp bums me out. It was exciting when we first started it but running to area X to look at Y for no other reason but to try and get edge points or xp just seems like a waste of time. It seems as if it was invented to help foster RP and encourage people to pay attention to their surroundings but in all reality CF just isn't at that sort of RP level.

I have had some ideas for characters recently but then I think of the quests that I -feel- like I need to complete or things to go and look at and it just seems like I'm wasting my time...it just isn't fun. Most quests and such are just muscle memory with no real thought behind it.

But edges are awesome so what are we to do?

-----------------
"My view of Borkahd IC"
If you anger him, he'll rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skin into his clothing. And if you're very, very lucky, he'll do it in that order. ~Twist

I've said it for a long time that edges, skill mastery, hell even prep gathering, is a generally overvalued thing by our players. Some people understand how to pk and can do it very well. Others struggle with it some and use preps/edges/skill mastery as a way to get back to square one with the really pk talented people. Then we have other players who are awful at pk and just blame it on their lack of edges or skill mastery or whatever.

I don't know which kind of player you are, nor do I know how diversified your experience is across different classes, cabals, alignments but I think if you have a pretty narrow field of what you have played you may want to broaden it. It becomes a lot easier to be competitive when you know whats coming from the other side.

Oh yeah, and I almost forgot.. How do you define competitive? Do you want your just hit level 51 guy to be able to take down a 500+ hr leader character with a tattoo? Or do you want to be able to go into most fights with a 50/50 shot of winning it?

People generally expect a reasonable correlation between expense and value. Perhaps the inflated perception of value has to do with the fact that the price to acquire them is very high and continues to rise.

From a personal perspective, if, as you suggest, it's not going to tip the scales, then please give that guy his edges, IMMxp, IMMteraction, title, custom long, lastname and whatever else your time and judgement permit, if it can make the game more enjoyable for him so he logs in tonight and makes it more enjoyable for me.

I will continue to reward quality and punish poor behavior just as I always have. While I may not be known as a reward heavy imm, I certainly do what I can to give out bits of love here and there as things occur during my especially limited availability that currently exists.

nt

We all know what you did re: Cabdru and all those other characters you hooked up.

WE KNOW.

Nt

nt

Just noticed nothing from daevryn in a while, and was like...what?

Either way, I honestly like daev, and I like destuvius.

C'mon! That was funny! I basically implied Destuvius was a cheater (like several other players love to imply about Immortal X) without offering any evidence!

I need to work on my funny game.

I just want edges because having them makes me feel better.
Why can't we have nice things, again?

>I've said it for a long time that edges, skill mastery, hell
>even prep gathering, is a generally overvalued thing by our
>players.

I'd say it depends on the skill in question. People do make too big of a deal out of parry/dodge/shieldblock.

Enhanced damage and primary weapon skill at 100% vs. 75% on a warrior is a big deal. Esp. if you hang out at low ranks for a long time and get them unnaturally high relative to other people at your rank.

>Others struggle with it some and use preps/edges/skill
>mastery as a way to get back to square one

Sadly, this is me.

I would add two other things that can boost a character's kill count irrespective of "skill":

1. "area knowledge / game knowledge". The more game knowledge you have the better your gear is likely to be, the more likely you are to be able to find that guy you match up well against, the better you chase, etc.

2. "client knowledge. Having a good set of aliases makes combat so, so much more manageable. I'm not sure I could get a single PK (outside of one-shot skills like assassinate) if I were forced to use straight-up telnet.

NT

I think you exaggerate the importance of edges, but I'm with you on feeling compelled to farm obs/exp pre-30.

The holy grail would be a system that incentivizes the things we want to incentivize but doesn't create any perverse incentives. I feel like the current system creates some perverse incentives.

Specifically with regard to observation/exploration, I would do the following:

1. Take a few veteran staff and have them rank mortals to hero, stopping to hunt along the way, but make no effort whatsoever to accumulate obs/exp. They just do their normal thing. At around the 200 hour mark, check in on each one and see how much obs/exp they have.

2. Note the median observation and median exploration experience from this group.

3. Set these values as the "caps" past which obs/exp no longer generate edge points.

4. Drop all requirements that obs/exp be accumulated by a certain rank.

5. Create logic that "releases" edge points from obs/exp as a character gains ranks. This would prevent someone farming up to the caps at level 10 and generating a ton of points "early".

Some things to note about this system:

1. Veteran players don't have to think about observation/exploration since they can be confident that with a long-lived character they will eventually reach the caps without any special effort. Contrast this with the current system where if I don't get my obs/exp by a certain rank then I permanently lose out on those points.

2. Newbie players still have an incentive to go out and observe/explore since they will probably not reach the caps without being intentional about exploring and observing.

3. There's no incentive to "farm" obs/exp at low ranks in an attempt to generate a ton of edge points "early" since the points from obs/exp only become available as characters rank up.

May not be worth the development time to implement something like this, but from a game design p.o.v., this is how I'd handle the issue of obs/exp and edge points.

I don't know if it was geared towards newbies getting something out of it, either way it lead to such nice things as farming scripts and players getting burned out on the tedium and stopping playing altogether.

Remove it, completely.

Explore XP can stay with no caps if the common/easy areas no longer give any.
Area explores and uncommon, tough areas with aggro mobs are fine to keep (and give out more XP even).

No caps for edge points from PKs, no fixed # of PKs by xx level level caps. This was a stupid idea to begin with, but it's even more stupid now that the details have been leaked and leads to rampant level-sitting. Keep the rest of the detail the same, one gets a fixed number of edge points for a certain number of PKs. Add larger fixed numbers of edge points for 10 25 50 100 PKs.

Give out increasing number of edge points every 150 hours.

Edge points for joining a cabal.
More edge points for becoming leader.

Find out more situations where edge points can be automatically dispensed.

In short, since for good or for evil lots of ppl like edge points and feel as if they need to have them to compete, the game should not try make them scant, but find creative ways to *increase* them while also taking out the tedium.

>Remove it, completely.

Gotta disagree. My idea to have low-ish caps effectively removes it as a concern for anyone who isn't spending all his/her time sitting in a guild or the Inn. I think it's good to have something that motivates a new player to actually go out and do a minimal level of exploration/observation instead of never going anywhere. The intent is for the caps to be set such that someone behaving "normally" (i.e. no intentional gathering of observation/exploration) will hit the cap after a couple hundred hours.


>Explore XP can stay with no caps if the common/easy areas no
>longer give any.

Disagree here too. If there's no cap then that has the potential to create another perverse incentive. I may already have 20k exploration XP, but if I haven't visited {tough area} then I need to assemble a group of folks and go visit it because it's still worth edge points.


>No caps for edge points from PKs

Again, disagree. For one, I don't want characters like Gaspare getting basically "all the edges" because they have 10x as many PKs as most other players. If anything I would lower the cap at which PKs stop generating edge points. Possibly increase the points-per-PK so that the total # of points remains roughly the same.

>no fixed # of PKs by xx

In the past I would have agreed with you on this one, but it occurs to me that removing this logic would remove the disincentive for players to just race to their combo's "sweet spot" and then get all their PKs there. I do think the caps should be significantly lowered though. Maybe you get some edge points for getting your first PK in each five-level range, but no more points after that. This rewards people for participating in PK at all points along the level spectrum, but reduces the amount of time people actively avoid ranking while trying to get 15 PKs at each level tier.

>Give out increasing number of edge points every 150 hours.

This already more or less happens, since you get edge points for hitting different "age" tiers.

>Edge points for joining a cabal.
>More edge points for becoming leader.

I could see edge points for joining a cabal, maybe. Leaders already get some because you earn cabal xp when you're leaderized. Not sure leaders need more help.

I would like to see edge points more strongly associated with imm xp, and I'd like to see imms hand out imm xp more easily when someone is observed doing something we want to incentivize. Role-playing, not being a docuhe-bag, etc. Basically lower the bar for what qualifies as being worthy of imm exp.

The caveat here is that characters aren't evenly observed. So if you had two guys who were equally "good" in terms of role-play, etc. and one was observed more than the other, that guy would end up with more edge points. Which isn't fair.

So maybe we put a low-ish cap on the # of points that can be earned from imm exp. Set it low enough that the guy who isn't observed as often will still eventually hit the cap so long as he role-plays, etc.

>I would like to see edge points more strongly associated with
>imm xp, and I'd like to see imms hand out imm xp more easily
>when someone is observed doing something we want to
>incentivize. Role-playing, not being a docuhe-bag, etc.
>Basically lower the bar for what qualifies as being worthy of
>imm exp.

Based on the huge headache that has occurred recently with people being held to a fairly low standard, I really don't think its possible to lower the bar any further than it has been already.

I would also like to note that this is a very strange request coming from you, as a player, because you tend to have a knack for creating characters that are universally enjoyed by the staff and the playerbase as a whole.

I mean his thief got IMM exp for some pretty ridiculously small and mundane things. It basically appeared that the IMMs decided that he needed to get Devious Versatility ASAP and acted accordingly. That PBF was just silly with oozey IMMlove and it made me jelly.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=53579&mesg_id=53580&page=2

vs

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=54242&mesg_id=54244&page=

gr

I forgot this is the internet, won't happen again.

It's possibly my sarcasm detector is just broke, but...

I see that Lithodora got 200 XP for having a good desc. I'm not a fan of this lately in general, but regardless, it's probably one of the fairest uses of xpadd and certainly the one most likely to reward people who don't even actually try to RP that there is.

Everything else looks like quests and immteraction, none of which sounds like were done specifically for her but rather things Lithodora dropped what she was doing to get involved in. The very last one being an exception, probably. This looks like evidence of two things: 1) Litho was an example of xpadd being used properly and 2) various imms are doing their jobs, so yay.

The rest of the comments about Imm XP look like the ones automatically generated via role rating, which just means Litho was maintaining a good role like we hope players do. And of course after the first 1.4k, this doesn't impact edges at all.

Either a) convince the staff to put ROLE UPDATE prior to hasrole xpadd comment, or
b) code so role update XP shows differently?

Sometimes it's hazy on PBF whether the XP received was for role or interaction.

Any reason it doesn't get separated out on PBF XP stats the way it does on score exp in game?

I thought we did this already but apparently only in a way that immortals can see. I'll try to fix that.

Either that, or some of my characters are apparently below that "fairly low standard".

I don't think I accurately communicated what I was trying to say. By "lower the bar" I didn't mean "let people get away with more stuff" or "be more hesitant to punish people when they do stupid stuff".

All I meant is that if you're watching a character and he/she does something moderately worth of praise then go ahead and toss him 100 imm xp. Maybe he kills someone and initiates some non-douchey in-character banter afterwards. Maybe someone says something stupid to him and he responds without breaking role. Etc. Basically, don't wait for people to do stuff that's amazing and superlative before rewarding them, with the goal being for players who are playing the game the way we want it to be played to be rewarded more frequently than they currently are.

Once it becomes more realistic for the average moderately well played character to get, say, 1500 imm exp over the course of 2-300 hours, then you can make that the cap and boost the importance of imm exp w.r.t. generating edge points.

The goal is for, say, the top 50% of characters in terms of "they're interesting, they role-play and they're not a-holes" to hit the cap over the course of a reasonably long lifespan.

A character that doesn't really role-play, though, or who has quiet mode on all the time and never interacts with anyone, would miss out on the majority of those immexp-based edge points.

So I would incentivize "doing stuff that makes an imm want to toss you 100 imm exp" while keeping a modest cap on how many points you can get this way in order to avoid incentivizing imm exp whoring and/or creating a situation where standout characters wind up with obscene amounts of edge points.

One potential problem w/ the above: once you hit the cap you lose all incentive to keep being cool, since you've already max'd out your edge points from that source. So that's a problem. Instead of a "hard" cap, could do a "law of diminishing returns" kind of thing. Maybe for the first 1000 imm exp you get 1 point per 100 xp, then 1 point per 200 xp for the next 1000 xp, then 1 point per 500 xp after that.

>>Remove it, completely.
>
>Gotta disagree. My idea to have low-ish caps effectively
>removes it as a concern for anyone who isn't spending all
>his/her time sitting in a guild or the Inn. I think it's good
>to have something that motivates a new player to actually go
>out and do a minimal level of exploration/observation
>instead of never going anywhere. The intent is for the caps
>to be set such that someone behaving "normally" (i.e. no
>intentional gathering of observation/exploration) will hit the
>cap after a couple hundred hours.

So, you want something that encourages newbies to explore, but will allow people to max out at a couple hundred hours without spending additional time solely pursuing exp/obs? If you can get the points w/o exploring, how does it encourage someone to explore? If you can get the exp/obs earlier by farming, then we haven't solved anything.

Frankly, I don't think PK needs, nor has ever needed, additional incentives. Was there a time I missed where everyone was just standing around and not PKing?

And, speaking of perverse incentives, let's not create a situation where players resent newbies because they are seen as the reason for the obs/exp grind. The resulting environment would make every newbie-friendly piece of code ever written inconsequential in about 5 seconds.

Now that people know how pk contributes to edge points it already leads to spam killing of newbs by vets who otherwise wouldn't have bothered.

Remove caps and you'll worsen the problem.

Besides, those able to pk lots (and I'm one) don't really need to be the ones getting the extra power boost on top of all the other boosts you already get from pk success.

It's the non killers that need boosts.

I'm all for rewarding actual in game rp too.

How many characters have you played above level 35 and/or for longer than 100 hours in the past twelve months? How many characters total?

For those characters in both groups, what were/are your expectations, exactly, with regards to edges?

I think around 2-3 and I feel that if I don't do the ob/exp dance, my char feels gimped. Like I said, maybe it's just me =) I'm by no means ####ting on any of the hard work you guys do. Was just giving feed back on how I felt about the edge grind being a fun thing to do, to being a must have, char defining aspect of the game.

I've played around five serious hero chars in the past 12 months, all caballed, generally with 2k+ Imm xp (new style,) some noticeable, some not. What I did notice is the halving of edge exploration/observation did produce a grind effect to the edges no matter the class and the goals of the char.

While previously I have made no specific effort to produce 10-15K exp/obs by hero and was generally fine without having to grind it out or even think about it, now I do have to consciously keep the edges in mind. There are a set of edges that are pretty much "required" to compete on an even foot and/or make a build convenient and pleasing enough to play. While previously this came with no specific effort by hero, the current situation had an unfortunate Valg effect to it IMHO, i.e. nerfing.

I'm not talking about expecting to have everything out there the second I hit hero with all builds, but having ~1k Imm xp from 3-4 imms, ~1k role xp, ~10-15 obs/exp XP, plus reasonable (per build) PK record should IMHO allow me to pick the set of edges that allow that particular build to compete. For example, if I was gnome warrior, both the edges for gnome warrior, plus all the seasons (Owl) edges plus about two spec edges. And I probably would love to have enough left over to have a choice of extra training if I need it.

What's great about CF is the customization allowed and the edges in my view are a great addition. However, the current setup, especially for some classes (AP and druid for example) does not allow for enough the edges for the type of chars you might want to have around.

Also, examples like smoke and mirrors, seasons warrior edges, shield paladin edges, countless etc should be just rolled into the appropriate class (additional skill or level-based, up to you) since they're obviously a must-have and are probably taken by ~100% of players who understand how things work.

I would also think on expanding the skills in 44-51 range (much like orc skills) to promote less level-sitting, which gets old and does not promote RP (especially for AP and assassins).

Assassinate and unholy blessing could do with a move to 47.

Edges should be rolled into a class is short sighted, because taking those edges means giving up on others. If they are rolled in you can take the others.

Personally I like the edges. The more the better.

However, I would let people go down one of 2 routes
Either pk for your edges, or explore and obs. The latter has the higher cap (since you are taking time out of pk). You can only do one.

A pk'er will probably take the pk option because it lets them pk non stop.

I actually like the challenge of taking a pk class (eg ap) and trying to successfully explore with them. One of my favorite memories is exploring the volcano midbie area with a suboptimal group.

All that would happen if we "rolled the edges" into the core class is people would find something else to complain about, it wouldn't fix the problem. It would just lead to some of those classes that used to need to invest the EP into the "must have" edges to have a giant pile of EP to spend on other things, in reality putting them further ahead instead of making it equal footing.

When edges went in, what I recall Nep saying was that edges would help entice people to take and use skills that were normally not used by knowledgeable players.

My perception of what happened is that they became a means to boost things that were already frequently used and effective--think Parry Anything, Winds of Hamsah, Smoke and Mirrors--and made them even stronger. That was a serious mistake, for it didn't increase variety or utility, it just made strong skills even stronger, and powergaming players even more powergamey.

Then someone had the idea of giving accomplished pkers edge points. That too was a serious mistake, for the people who PK well do garner imm-attention and leadership spots. They also tend to be the people who know and visit obscure corners of the mud to get the things they need to make them more effective.

I absolutely love edges. The edge point nerf ticked me off immensely, but not because it made me less effective than my peers, but because it limited my access to Achievement badges. Some people spend all their time ogling over their equipment, but my excitement was always trying to earn that next badge or acquire a new set of options when I went into the guild to discuss.

If I could change the edge system, I would suggest this:
- look at the skills people desire and use without edges. Remove edges for those skills. Go back to the original, stated intent of edges, even if many of those early edges did not meet that standard
- for edges that are frequently chosen, ask why. If it is to strengthen a strength of the race/class, remove it. It if bolsters a weakness, consider keeping it.
- remove edge bonuses for PK. Characters are more likely to get imm-love if they actively defend or raid, and deathful characters are already considered "fun to watch" so there is no need to reward them twice for the same behavior

If you remove the 'make the powerful more powerful' aspect to edges, then immortals can feel free to lavish immortal love on behavior they like, setting up a reinforcing cycle of positive rewards for the players and immortals appreciating each other, and eliminating the enmity people feel if they believe that Isildur was rewarded unfairly relatively to Llydia.

There is no need to "pull the plug" on edges. Just align their function with your vision.

Edges clearly from the moment they were introduced, went a lot further
than just enticing ppl to use different skills.

They *changed the way classes played, and in some cases this happened in a major way*.

To me they always felt like a compromise to changing the classes themselves. It is easier to introduce changes with edges, see how they work out in practice, and maybe in the future roll them into the class (or not), than go in and change the class outright.

A lot of the class mechanics were downright broken and edges helped a lot with this.
Some mechanics are still broken (and a few edges broke some of their own), but hey, they're fewer than before so overall I'd say the edge changes have been overwhelmingly positive.

If someone removed all edges right now, you'd end up with a broken game.

Forget the complicated stuff that Isildur is proposing, the following (2) steps would introduce a lot more FUN in CF:

+ Find ways to make edges *easier to get* without tedium, not harder, across the board for everyone.
+ Play around with edges a lot more, meaning code new ones/remove existing ones that are deemed broken and so on. The barrier to entry for this is low.

"Daevryn Busts a Move on a New Round of Edges"

New edges went in this reboot! The theme was to add some interesting ideas for underplayed role/class combos. Thanks to everyone who helped give ideas on the gameplay forum.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=2569



I agree that edges quickly deviated from this initial view, but this was how I think they would best serve the game.

Edges started over 5 years prior to that.

This is the first post I could find announcing them:

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=3&topic_id=1085&mesg_id=1085&listing_type=search

I thought I remembered an earlier post that stated the goals of edges that was similar to what you are saying, but I couldn't find it.

I think without that it is hard to take the Cyradia post from five years later as the initial view.

nt

It's been 20 years and we're still hung up on this idea that nothing can be improved because things won't ever be perfect.

Honestly the affect of most edges is really minor, they are nice to have but not silly.

A couple edges open up niche things, they are not all expensive, for instance master embalmer is cheap and really gets a lot of mileage. For muter the best edge is master of leisure because you can run around hasted to jump on short windows of opportunity. The plague edge is solid for drawn out group fights as a shaman.

Really for any given class there are likely 3 or less edges that will have a real measurable impact on your game, and how you play the class will make different ones ideal.

For me I like the explore system, since learning I needed to get so much at low ranks I have re done areas I barely paid attention to the last few decades and have found some nifty things, not all of which had points tied to them, for instance there is some cool stuff on tombstones in the galadon graveyard that gave me role ideas.