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ValguarneraFri 23-Mar-01 03:34 PM
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#12, "The Practicing Trap."


          

Be careful about falling into the trap of "100% skills = invincible". It's something of a running joke in Asgaard every time someone posts a log somewhere, and the feedback is always along the lines of "Damn. That victor must have worked so much harder on his skills.", and someone checks the guy's file and the victor doesn't even have enhanced damage perfected. I would much rather go into a tough area or difficult PK fight alongside an experienced player with crappy skills, than a newer player with 100% in everything. The difference that practicing skills makes isn't so big in the grand scheme- take it from someone who had a solid PK record despite mediocre skills. (93% parry at level 47 (250 hours) according to one log I have at home, liching/IMMing (750 hours) with sub-100 crimson scourge, whip, energy drain, hand to hand, forget, PWK, ritual of abominations, etc. Keep in mind I had a 23 int and Tome all this time.)

The counterargument is often "Yeah, but I'm sorta new here, and the only way I can compete is to have 100% haggle." I'll ask you this then: Who is more likely to kill you?

1) The newer player who spends 150 hours perfecting all of his relevant skills by spamming them at local mobs, or in his guild.

2) The newer player who spends 150 hours exploring areas, IDing new gear, RPing his way to a tattoo, and developing alliances.

Player #1 might have a short-term boost in power (and not nearly as big as a lot of people will sell you). But once he deletes, guess what: All those 100%s go away. Player #2 has also gotten tougher- he probably has more prep items available, more hiding places when he's hurt, more friends that he can call on, and maybe a tattoo. He's gotten pointers from his friends, and maybe been in a few scraps to learn tactics for himself. Maybe he's lost a little con, but he probably picked up a few skill points here and there too.

In the long run, I'm much more scared of Player #2. Player #2 also adds a lot more to the game, and is happy to let the Player #1s sit on Eastern Road, use their one stone skin item for prep, and bash each other. That's because Player #2 knows that area knowledge, gearing strategy, timing, preparation, and RP rewards will beat 100% skills every time. Plus, Player #2 is probably really busy playing with out-of-the-way quests, IMMteraction (who wants to run a quest for a guy that's in his guild spamming 'detect invis'?), exploring areas that Player #1 can't even find, and laughing all the way. Player #1 is getting his 14th Mountain Dew out of the fridge to keep awake, and wondering if he could get away with a bot that auto-flurries kobolds for hours at a time.

Why the hell would anyone want to be Player #1?

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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Reply RE: The Practicing Trap., Arolin (Guest), 06-Sep-01 08:38 PM, #50
Reply RE: The Practicing Trap., sandeep (Guest), 03-Sep-01 10:28 PM, #45
Reply Newbiedom, nepenthe, 04-Sep-01 09:46 AM, #48
     Reply RE: Newbiedom, sandeep (Guest), 04-Sep-01 09:40 PM, #49
Reply RE: The Practicing Trap., Gilrex (Guest), 19-Apr-01 02:55 PM, #22
Reply Only Phyisical defense skills have changed, not spells ..., Kaldar (Guest), 19-Apr-01 04:26 PM, #23
Reply RE: The Practicing Trap., Magic 8 ball (Guest), 27-Mar-01 11:45 PM, #10
Reply RE: The Practicing Trap., Mynawk (Guest), 29-Mar-01 12:22 PM, #18
Reply RE: The Practicing Trap., Jhyrbian, 27-Mar-01 04:05 PM, #3
Reply RE: Jhyrbian vs. The Practicing Trap., Valguarnera, 27-Mar-01 06:59 PM, #5
Reply RE: The Practicing Trap., Sylvan Bear (Guest), 27-Mar-01 03:46 PM, #2
Reply RE: The Practicing Trap., Valguarnera, 27-Mar-01 07:13 PM, #6
Reply Ill take that dare!, Oddjob, 20-Apr-01 02:26 PM, #24
     Reply Um., nepenthe, 22-Apr-01 01:07 PM, #26
          Reply ...., Oddjob, 23-Apr-01 12:57 PM, #27
               Reply RE: ...., nepenthe, 23-Apr-01 02:04 PM, #28
               Reply RE: ...., Tolingauroth (Guest), 03-Sep-01 11:10 PM, #47
               Reply RE: ...., Boldereth, 13-Mar-03 05:10 PM, #52
Reply Hmm..., Trewyn (Guest), 27-Mar-01 11:27 PM, #9
     Reply RE: Hmm..., Kah (Guest), 28-Mar-01 09:46 AM, #11
     Reply I was beginning to wonder, Scarabaeus, 28-Mar-01 09:55 AM, #12
     Reply A few points Kah., Jhyrbian, 28-Mar-01 11:42 PM, #16
     Reply RE: A few points Kah., Kah (Guest), 29-Mar-01 01:43 PM, #19
          Reply RE: A few points Kah., Tolingauroth (Guest), 02-Sep-01 10:43 PM, #40
               Reply RE: A few points Kah., sandeep (Guest), 03-Sep-01 09:23 PM, #42
     Reply RE: Hmm..., sandeep (Guest), 03-Sep-01 10:16 PM, #44
     Reply RE: Hmm..., TheFirstApostle (Guest), 28-Mar-01 11:29 AM, #13
     Reply RE: Hmm..., sandeep (Guest), 03-Sep-01 10:39 PM, #46
     Reply RE: Hmm..., sandeep (Guest), 03-Sep-01 10:07 PM, #43
Reply ArChaos, post removed, Scarabaeus, 27-Mar-01 12:31 PM, #1
     Reply RE: ArChaos, post removed, ArChaos, 27-Mar-01 05:05 PM, #4
          Reply Nope., Valguarnera, 27-Mar-01 07:20 PM, #7
          Reply ArChaos' quote, text quoted with objectionable portion ..., Valguarnera, 28-Mar-01 04:47 PM, #14
          Reply Sorry you don't make much sense to me, ArChaos, 28-Mar-01 07:52 PM, #15
               Reply two points (and the crowd goes wild), nepenthe, 29-Mar-01 12:08 AM, #17
               Reply ArChaos, post removed (advice inside), Scarabaeus, 29-Mar-01 02:53 PM, #20
               Reply RE: two points (and the crowd goes wild), Gabe, 29-Mar-01 03:49 PM, #21
               Reply RE: two points (and the crowd goes wild), sandeep (Guest), 27-Aug-01 03:26 AM, #31
                    Reply if you have to ask. . ., nepenthe, 27-Aug-01 10:15 AM, #32
                    Reply RE: if you have to ask. . ., sandeep (Guest), 27-Aug-01 08:46 PM, #35
                    Reply RE: two points (and the crowd goes wild), Valguarnera, 27-Aug-01 10:22 AM, #33
                         Reply RE: two points (and the crowd goes wild), sandeep (Guest), 27-Aug-01 08:37 PM, #34
               Reply RE: Sorry you don't make much sense to me, Tolingauroth (Guest), 02-Sep-01 11:30 PM, #41
               Reply RE: Sorry you don't make much sense to me, incognito, 05-Mar-03 08:33 AM, #51
          Reply RE: Nope., sandeep (Guest), 27-Aug-01 03:07 AM, #30
               Reply RE: Nope., ArChaos, 28-Aug-01 01:50 AM, #36
                    Reply RE: Nope., sandeep (Guest), 31-Aug-01 07:55 AM, #37
                         Reply RE: Nope., ArChaos, 31-Aug-01 08:29 AM, #38
                              Reply RE: Nope., sandeep (Guest), 31-Aug-01 10:33 PM, #39
          Reply RE: ArChaos, post removed, Sandello, 27-Mar-01 07:26 PM, #8
               Reply RE: ArChaos, post removed, Oddjob, 20-Apr-01 02:35 PM, #25
                    Reply RE: ArChaos, post removed, Isildur, 04-May-01 06:57 PM, #29

Arolin (Guest)Thu 06-Sep-01 08:38 PM

  
#13, "RE: The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #0


          

Yes, i would rather group with a good player with crap skills than a newbie with good skills under certain circumstances.
But not others, if i needed a tank, i could care less if he doesnt know how to walk to the past, he just needs to be the tank. Why do i need someone who can lead and has experienced when i am doing that myself? If he takes too long to attack the mob you can teach him to attack faster. I am sick to death of grouping with arial sword specs that tank worst than me.

Your comparing newbie/good skills and expert/crap skills, what about if you compare expert/crap skills and expert/good skills?

Its about knowing which spells you need mastered. Your necro, its find not to master crimson, energy drain, pwk, as long as they in the 90's. YOU MUST MASTER word, tele and sleep for instance.

Let me just sort something out for you Valg, PK ratios are completly ilrelevant to PKing. You can get a good pk ratio with the following, Experience, Powerful combo and a good link. Unless Jullias changes to a total pkwin vs total pklosses you really cant get all that much from the pk ratio. Having spent quite a bit of time with you as Joeter, i can safely say you arent a pker, which is fair enough since you would likely agree with that. Nor were some of your other chars, after all your more of a roleplayer. I am out of my league compared to you in the area of roleplay, imagination and 'fluff'. Now your an imm you would have more of a handle of the game mechanics, however, you still have little experience thinking like a pker. Skills are important.

I agree with you in that newbies do fall in to the practicing trap. They should become experts first, then bot.

  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 03-Sep-01 10:28 PM

  
#14, "RE: The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #0


          


What the ....
Are all those posts of "me became immortal.me got tatooed,me became cabal leader, all first char" meant to discourage us?

And nothing to say ."I did not practice at all,I only did this"

Ok.get yer point.yer great pk ers,we will stay clear of yer guys.

one question i have here.

do you guys call yerself newbies fer a joke?
if i had been mudding some place else fer a few years it ain't gonna take me long to be a hero in other muds too.
all muds are more or less the same,only the treatment differs,so i say even if yer are new to CF but an experienced mudder then yer are no newbie.
yer are only new,not a newbie.and it ain't take long to get info and be those awesome people of thera.
so ...

p.s. I am positive this is my first outburst on the forums but it just makes me go mad to read all that.excuse me.

  

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nepentheTue 04-Sep-01 09:46 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#15, "Newbiedom"
In response to Reply #45


          

I don't think I wrote a post of that form today, but having immorted around my second character I'll respond.

>What the ....
> Are all those posts of
>"me became immortal.me got tatooed,me
>became cabal leader, all first
>char" meant to discourage us?

On the contrary, I think it's meant to encourage you to realize that even the "big things" in the game are not necessarily beyond you as a newbie.

>Ok.get yer point.yer great pk ers,we
>will stay clear of yer
>guys.

Actually, that's not the point. You don't have to be a great pk'er to be immortal, tattooed, or cabal leader.

>do you guys call yerself newbies
>fer a joke?
>if i had been mudding some
>place else fer a few
>years it ain't gonna take
>me long to be a
>hero in other muds too.
>
>all muds are more or less
>the same,only the treatment differs,so
>i say even if yer
>are new to CF but
>an experienced mudder then yer
>are no newbie.
>yer are only new,not a newbie.and
>it ain't take long to
>get info and be those
>awesome people of thera.
>so ...

CF was my first mud.

I'm guessing it was the first for some of the people saying similar things, as well, or near it.

The point isn't that some of us came out of the womb ready to run down Eastern Road blindfolded and bashing passersby. We weren't great killers at first. That came later. Oh, did it ever come so much later.

With my first character, I personally died until the cows came home. PK-wise I was at least as terrible as you could ever hope to be. I tried to call down the thunder on someone once, but I had to do it collect and it wouldn't accept the charges. We didn't "succeed" (if you want to call being tattooed, etc. that) because we were death incarnate badass types. We succeeded because we were too fucking dumb to give up. Frustration delete? No way! This character is like 20th level! That's huge! It could take weeks to get that high again.

We took our lumps (and the lumps of others generously shared, I'm sure), stuck with it, and eventually managed to learn something. If you RP and stick with your character, getting these things is not out of your reach.

  

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sandeep (Guest)Tue 04-Sep-01 09:40 PM

  
#16, "RE: Newbiedom"
In response to Reply #48


          

Hehehe..

I was sure it would provoke this kinda response.
Take back my words I don't want a war here,
I will stick with my current char,come what may,and join cabals and all too.

  

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Gilrex (Guest)Thu 19-Apr-01 02:55 PM

  
#17, "RE: The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #0


          

I was wondering about something about the practicing changes. How will transmuter-shapeshifters benefit from this? They can't cast their spells on others, and they loose their spell effects when they cast out of form then shift to form. I have never learned anything while using the enliven skill, so I have no idea on how to increase their spell abilities while adventuring. Furthermore, since the shapeshift spell costs such a hefty amount of mana and lag;you cast it MUCH less while out and about. This makes that spell very difficult to learn anything from that while adventuring also.

Roleplaying, well I can roleplay with socials, but as for speaking to people you can't do that in form. I know that the spells and limitations were built into the class, but I would like to benefit from these new changes too.

  

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Kaldar (Guest)Thu 19-Apr-01 04:26 PM

  
#18, "Only Phyisical defense skills have changed, not spells ..."
In response to Reply #22


          

Shapeshift is just a hard skill to learn, it hasn't been made harder.

  

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Magic 8 ball (Guest)Tue 27-Mar-01 11:45 PM

  
#19, "RE: The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #0


          

You bring up a damn good point about wanting to have the more experienced player by your side. My question is, if skill percentages did not matter, then why was it changed? If player 2 could kill player 1, then why does it matter? If that player 1 vs. player 2 thing is true (which it is) then skill percenteges do not matter, so it should not have been changed. If player 1 chooses to practice then let him. Point being, there are probably more important things that could be changed other than the way we practice.

It probably will just have to get used to it, but I sure as hell get the chills going into a fight w/o at least 100% parry. I don't know why, I guess I am just insecure... :'(

  

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Mynawk (Guest)Thu 29-Mar-01 12:22 PM

  
#20, "RE: The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #10


          

>You bring up a damn good point about wanting to have the more experienced player by your side. My question is, if skill percentages did not matter, then why was it changed?

Simple. Perception is reality. Since everyone perceived a huge difference between 100% parry and 75% parry it became a reality. If a player killed someone they often assumed that their skills were better than their opponent’s. No matter how many times the Imms said it just wasn’t the case players felt they had to practice everything to the 100%. It began to degrade the enjoyment of all players.

CF is a game. Ultimately it should be fun. If a portion of the game is structured in such a way to negatively impact the CF Funstick we will change it. Many players were complaining about the lack of fun they had practicing. We gathered around our Immortal Drawing Board and tried to figure out a way to take the not-so-fun-practicing part of game play out.


>It probably will just have to get used to it, but I sure as hell get the chills going into a fight w/o at least 100% parry. I don't know why, I guess I am just insecure... :'(

Change always takes time getting used to. We hope this change will be a positive one. If it is not, guess what! We will change it again until we get it right. For now, we are watching closely.

  

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JhyrbianTue 27-Mar-01 04:05 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#21, "RE: The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #0


          

Sorry Valguarnera, but you weren't exactly feared by anyone.
(No offense by that, you are a cool character)
So your practice ratio isn't helping you any.

Who would you rather have?

1} The player who has all 100%'s in relevant skills by spamming them at your local mobs and know's what he's doing, not the idiot you paint in your original post.

2} The player that doesn't have any skills practiced but spent 150 hours exploring areas and has a 60k xp hole who can't contribute to a group without resting after every fight.


Player #1 spent a few hours at level 15 alone practicing his skills and preparing for the future in seclusion.. Not many people rp much at these low levels due to newbies so it's just as well to spend the time alone to be able to survive at the higher ranks and rp your heart out there. He's got all his weapons done, disarm, bash, trip. Etc. He's a force to be reckoned with, when we decides to explore more at the higher levels when he's tougher he is even stronger than before with those nifty prep items.

Player #2. So he made a few friends who generally refer to him as the 'third' for some reason. He has his enlarge roots and stone skin fillets, his defenses even made it to 90% somehow but his other skills like dirt, disarm, bash, trip aren't the best and pretty unreliable, so him and his friends are running around and player #1 starts attacking player #2, his friends see him eating up alot of damage and trying in vain to disarm this loner player #1, player #1 disarms him, bashes him, player #2's friends decide to get out of dodge before this mean yamma jamma turns his attention to them.



In the short and long run, i'm still alot more afraid of player #1 because i know he can mess me up if i make the slightest mistake or something just doesn't go my way. Who cares about the people spamming detect invis, that's their perogative and shouldn't be forced to spend countless hours doing it if he so choses, maybe it is late at night and there's no one to group with, why should he have nothing to do? Why should the only alternative be to go explore and possibly get handed a nasty xp hole? The warrior spamming flurry on kobold is going to scare the ##### out of anyone who fights him when he lands that 7 hit flurry and the guy who fails every two out of three is going to get his ass handed to him, prep items or not.

But basically, everything you're saying is circumstancial and can be reversed any which way you chose to spin it. Saying that practicing isn't important is #####. If the immortals wanted people to stop spamming things they should of made it EASIER, not harder, we've been in this practice mode for so long, to think that making practice harder would obliterate peoples desire to have optimal performance from their characters would change overnight is just foolish.

My two cents.

  

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ValguarneraTue 27-Mar-01 06:59 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#22, "RE: Jhyrbian vs. The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #3


          

LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-01 AT 07:00 PM (CST)

Sorry Valguarnera, but you weren't exactly feared by anyone.(No offense by that, you are a cool character) So your practice ratio isn't helping you any.

I'll agree that there are certainly a lot of players are more skilled than I, yourself included. However, this strengthens my argument: My character won a lot more battles than he lost, and I had decent (but not good) skills for much of that time.

As for the remainder of your points: Keep in mind that a character who goes out and explores intelligently (as in, keeps an eye for deathtraps, and sticks to areas near his own level) isn't going to have 75% everything for very long. Actually, the current system will be kind to this player.

Your example of a character who goes out and solo ranks in seclusion at the lower levels is also a character that will probably benefit from the practice code. Again, the skills you use as you adventure will go up at a respectable rate.

I also wouldn't say that practicing is "harder" now. "Different", yes. For a clever player: "easier".

Spamming isn't very much fun for anyone. The recent code changes basically say "Spamkilling kobolds is boring, so we're tweaking the practice code so it's silly to spamkill kobolds, and a great idea to adventure." I will admit that the code makes it hard to level-sit while increasing skills, but I don't have that much sympathy there.

And besides, the kobold population will really benefit, and I have a soft spot for the little bastards.

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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Sylvan Bear (Guest)Tue 27-Mar-01 03:46 PM

  
#23, "RE: The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #0


          

Don't know about you, but I'd rather have player #2 with all his skills perfected. Have you ever seen an assassin try to tank with his skill not perfected? It's horrible. I've seen immortals quote this many times 'It's not the clothes, its the skill'. I've never seen a new player explore. Heck, I've never seen a new player get a tattoo. I remember my first caballed char, Zhurnile(using him as an example). I had a role that could make an onion cry(sorry for the bad joke). I died a lot. Theres even a log of me dying to a guy with a single jeweled broadsword. I tried to RP, but I wasn't noticed because everyone considered me a newbie and the sort. I am still a newbie somewhat and I've noticed that having your skills perfected helps a massive amount. I recently had an assassin with a lot of his skills perfected. I ranked to 38 and had to delete from frustration. How am I to get a tattoo when I can't even get into a cabal because of imms with herpes or whatever (Just kidding, bad joke, sorry). Yeah, I'm still a little bitter, but I'm getting off the point.

I'd rather have a learned asn tanking than a poor new guy with his skills at 75% dying because he can't parry/dodge for his life. Let's face it, we all know we're going to do better with our skills perfected. Would you hand in a mediocre report to your teacher knowing it was mediocre? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't. I think you just made the mud a little more uncomfortable for the new guys and experienced players who try to perfect parry/can't and delete in frustration because the guy with the 50 wands and decked set kills them in a few hits. Maybe its balance? But then what? It's really a fight between equipment, right?

Just my humble opinion.

Thanks,
SylvanBear

  

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ValguarneraTue 27-Mar-01 07:13 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#35, "RE: The Practicing Trap."
In response to Reply #2


          

Don't know about you, but I'd rather have player #2 with all his skills perfected.

Of course, but taking both is cheating. My example was between two players who both spend the same amount of time on their characters.

I'd rather have a learned asn tanking than a poor new guy with his skills at 75% dying because he can't parry/dodge for his life. Let's face it, we all know we're going to do better with our skills perfected.

Agreed. It's a question of magnitude, and player #2 isn't going to have 75% skills for very long. My opinion remains that the difference in combat effectiveness between a "practiced" and "unpracticed" (skills going up from adventure situations) player is just not all that large.

I think you just made the mud a little more uncomfortable for the new guys and experienced players who try to perfect parry/can't and delete in frustration because the guy with the 50 wands and decked set kills them in a few hits. Maybe its balance? But then what? It's really a fight between equipment, right?

Player skill (not the numbers that show up what you type "prac", but the experience and cleverness of the player) is vastly more important than either character skills or equipment. Give Nepenthe or Jhyrbian or Leika or Twist or whoever an average suit, a little time to gather prep items, and 75% everything, and they will find a way to thrash an average player with 100% everything and shiny gear in a one-on-one fight. Again, if you've got 50 hours to spare, choosing to spend that time on parry or whatever isn't going to trump getting out there and learning the tricks of the trade in the long run, in my opinion.

Also, again: Practicing isn't "harder". It's "different".

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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OddjobFri 20-Apr-01 02:26 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#36, "Ill take that dare!"
In response to Reply #6


          

I would take that dare in a second. You give me a char with all maxed skills lets say...an assassin. and a nice set. Hell give me jeweleld broadsword/shield Ill win in that situation.

Withthose perfected skills ill snap his wrists, and shoulders before they know what hit em. Ill have em blind poisoned weakened and taking MASSIVE amounts of hits in a few short rounds because I have evertying perfected and they dont. Meanwhile they are still spamming disarm, and failing. But tis ok if they get lucky, a perfected assassin can do as well with his hands.

They can have wands, scrolls, staves whatever. Ill place my paycheck on player #1.

Gimme some o dat action!

POSTER'S DISCLAIMER: "Of course....I don't play anymore, but its just my 2 cents."

  

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nepentheSun 22-Apr-01 01:07 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#37, "Um."
In response to Reply #24


          

Of course you can win any hypothetical fight if you pick completely stupid moves for the other guy. I mean, if we're going to be that ridiculous about it, my warrior with crappy gear and most skills around 80% is going to take out your assassin with the damage from a single bash because the assassin is so f'ing dumb he's standing visible at Market Square Galadon convulsing and a tick from starvation death.

I would argue that a warrior, even with mediocre skills, who lets an assassin get away with what you describe in your post would have to be much worse than the poor bastard who just slips up and runs out of food at a bad time.

  

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OddjobMon 23-Apr-01 12:57 PM
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#38, "...."
In response to Reply #26


          

Quoted from Valg's post that I was responding to.
======================================
Player skill (not the numbers that show up what you type "prac", but the experience and cleverness of the player) is vastly more important than either character skills or equipment. Give Nepenthe or Jhyrbian or Leika or Twist or whoever an average suit, a little time to gather prep items, and 75% everything, and they will find a way to thrash an average player with 100% everything and shiny gear in a one-on-one fight. Again, if you've got 50 hours to spare, choosing to spend that time on parry or whatever isn't going to trump getting out there and learning the tricks of the trade in the long run, in my opinion.

=======================================


He basicly posed a challenge of a player like Leika, Twist, You, Or Jhyrbian could "Thrash" a chracter with straight 100s and shiny gear, with a moderate char.

I said that an assassin with perfect 100s is going to do sick things to them. As soon as the fight starts the weapons will be gone or nearly gone. The other guy gets protections? Great that will drag the fight on longer, an assassins best friend is time, and he can buy his own because he is tanking like a perfected assassin with a shield should.

You mentioned that nobody would "let" an assassin do those things? I got the idea that this was basicly a deul between two chacters and I know of no way to stop someone from kot, kan, throw/gc, etc. Except for lag the hell out of em, but that wont stop it all.


I suck at pk and am most likely speaking out my ass here. But I have played a ton of assassins, and spend a LOAD of time working on my skills because thats one of the things that makes me like cf, the feeling of self accomplishment. WHen those skills are perfected there is very little I cannot take out...and yes this includes mace/axe specs. A good portion of the mace/axe users arent smart enough to load up on +20 str, and once you get those weapons away from em and take their dex to -54487567...buh bye.

POSTER'S DISCLAIMER: "Of course....I don't play anymore, but its just my 2 cents."

  

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nepentheMon 23-Apr-01 02:04 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#39, "RE: ...."
In response to Reply #27


          

Disclaimer: As always, this is my experience. Your mileage may vary.

I've fought the assassin vs. warrior one on one from both sides more times than I can count. I've lost it from the assassin side a few times. Sometimes, not often, but sometimes, every bash will be a good one and the assassin will simply never get a single command off. I'm still waiting to lose it from the warrior side for the first time. As you point out, the assassin's tactic is typically to erode the warrior's ability to fight slowly. If, as a warrior, you have come to realize that you are going to eventually lose, it's time to get out of there.

> You mentioned that nobody would "let" an assassin do those things? I got the idea that this was basicly a deul between two chacters and I know of no way to stop someone from kot, kan, throw/gc, etc. Except for lag the hell out of em, but that wont stop it all.

Well, a couple points here. First, sometimes the lag the hell out of them tactic does stop them all. Kot/kan: it's possible to ensure your strength and dex will not drop at all from them. This may not win the fight, but it should keep you from ever dying. Throw/GC: Some warriors can't be thrown, and some warriors can reach a state via magic where they can't be thrown. Again, if the fight gets to a point where it actually looks like a good idea for the assassin to be throwing, the warrior should already be running far away.

A well-honed player skill of chasing would preserve the assassin's advantage, but for the purposes of the example we're assuming the assassin character has better skills but that the warrior's player is better, right? Well, he's going to get away from you at least nine times out of ten.

> WHen those skills are perfected there is very little I cannot take out...and yes this includes mace/axe specs. A good portion of the mace/axe users arent smart enough to load up on +20 str, and once you get those weapons away from em and take their dex to -54487567...buh bye.

Y'know, I think you're actually kinda making my point here. You're saying. .. I'm playing this assassin and I'm fighting these mace/axe warriors a pretty smart way. . .and they're fighting me a pretty stupid way. . . so I beat them.

Even an axe warrior whose gear isn't engineered to fight an assassin and can't see hidden should be in pretty good shape against an assassin with fairly simple tactics. You can't initiate with kotegaeshi or kansetsuwaza, meaning, even when you get the surprise attack he can always throw the pincer before you can get that skill off. If you have even half of your hit points by the time the kotegaeshi or kansetsuwaza goes through, something is seriously wrong.

Rambling on a tangent a bit:

It's probably worth mentioning that player skill, in my opinion, encompasses a lot of things, only a fraction of which come into play in the actual rounds of combat and moves chosen. Preparation in terms of affects is a small part, but one that I think gets more attention than its due. Preparation in terms of equipment choice is another small part. The ability to find your opponent when he doesn't want to be found, to keep on him when he's trying to escape, and to be able to lose him completely when things turn against you all factor in.

Timing, and the choice of circumstances for a fight are a big one that I tend to see neglected. It's easy to think (or say) that your opponent sure got lucky that you didn't have spell X up . . . or that the fight took place in such and such type of terrain . . . or that you were starving out in the middle of nowhere . .. or under whatever conditions, and that surely you'll turn them into a fine red paste next time. Circumstances may be by design rather than accident. This is where I go to the "think outside the box" well. If you know you can't tank someone, then don't. Set up a fight in which they're stuck fighting something else for at least a little while. If you know you can't win the fight in some certain room, don't walk into that room, and so on.

  

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Tolingauroth (Guest)Mon 03-Sep-01 11:10 PM

  
#40, "RE: ...."
In response to Reply #28


          

>Timing, and the choice of circumstances
>for a fight are a
>big one that I tend
>to see neglected. It's
>easy to think (or say)
>that your opponent sure got
>lucky that you didn't have
>spell X up . .
>. or that the fight
>took place in such and
>such type of terrain .
>. . or that you
>were starving out in the
>middle of nowhere . ..
> or under whatever conditions,
>and that surely you'll turn
>them into a fine red
>paste next time. Circumstances
>may be by design rather
>than accident. This is
>where I go to the
>"think outside the box" well.
> If you know you
>can't tank someone, then don't.
> Set up a fight
>in which they're stuck fighting
>something else for at least
>a little while. If
>you know you can't win
>the fight in some certain
>room, don't walk into that
>room, and so on.

Hear Hear, i wish i'd read this a long, long time ago but in my experience you can beat anybody if you engineer it right, anyone having trouble with pk'ing others should really try doing it this way sometime, eg, if they're exhausted they can't run, if they're hurt they die quicker if they're brain dead they die even quicker (well mages anyway, orcs and giants are permantley brain dead but still manage to kick six shades of sh) so try and pick the time and place then waste that 40ft fire giant with the Midnight dragon gear.

Isle of the Dread Wolf

  

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BolderethThu 13-Mar-03 05:10 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#87, "RE: ...."
In response to Reply #27


          

I know this is a bit of a spoiler, but an assassin even if not tanking can make the tank do his job 150% easier without ever practicing his defenses. If he's a real assassin, by 30 he's got them all pretty high anyway (90ish). If he's low weight, he's going to dodge pretty well, and with a good shield and a good sword he won't parry or shield block too ####ty either. With caltrap, nerve, kanset and etc you can decrease the chances of getting hit and lessen the damage a tad.

Now in a pk fight, an assassin who misses kot may die to a spam bashing giant. However, haste and dam redux will give you a lot of shots at it, and 100% compared to say 90% isn't really a huge boon.

I haven't perfected #### in about 3 years purposely. I may not be awesome pk-wise, but I don't do horribly either, and contrary to popular belief with exception to sword-specs I've never had an overt problem dealing with any assassin (except the incredibly elite ones) in combat solo combat.

  

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Trewyn (Guest)Tue 27-Mar-01 11:27 PM

  
#24, "Hmm..."
In response to Reply #2


          

My first two characters on the mud got tattoos. I had Shokai's tattoo and Twist's tattoo. They were in cabals, and I explored like a maniac. 90% of my knowledge of Thera comes from those two original characters. I never ONCE practiced skills to perfection with any character, save for my master and Twist made me do it! Trewyn had a role reason to perfect all of his weapons, but that was it. The rest I just got to a "reasonable level of reliability". I remember looking over my skill list of a storm giant axe spec and noticed that dodge was at 96 when I was rank 46. I still could kill people. I never once understood the practicing trap. Sure there are certain skills that MUST be perfected. Those being skills like sing and the invoker spells. Shapeshift is HANDY if you get it perfected, but I wouldn't spam it for the life of me. I tend to do a lot of solo exploration when the competition's hot for me, so I get my practice in there. When my range looks sick, look for me in the most obscure places.

Trewyn

  

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Kah (Guest)Wed 28-Mar-01 09:46 AM

  
#28, "RE: Hmm..."
In response to Reply #9


          

I'm going to agree with Tahren. My first character (Smoke) was a complete newbie, never practiced, was tattooed, caballed and immed.(yay me) All I did was roleplay. I learned enough that I later came back as Aarakocrus, who might be on the pillar of battle. He was considered real tough. Never practiced. Kah, emperor of thera, shaman. Never practiced. Practicing is a waste of time that should be spent roleplaying. If the two can be combined, well done. I think Shimae was my most recent character that anyone might have heard of, she spam practiced, and I ended up getting bored of her before I could hero. If you don't "power rank" skills go up naturally. The main discipline is in using all your strengths, not improving a few of them. Of course requiring certain percentages in skills and spells to allow you to learn new skills and spells doesn't make sense to me in this light.

Kah

  

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ScarabaeusWed 28-Mar-01 09:55 AM
Member since 19th Feb 2011
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#34, "I was beginning to wonder"
In response to Reply #11


  

          

> If you don't "power
>rank" skills go up naturally.
> The main discipline is
>in using all your strengths,
>not improving a few of
>them.

Well, it's good to know I'm not the only person to experience
this. I've never practiced anything as a mortal and found that
I learned at a steady pace that kept me on fairly equal par with
my peers. Then again, I've never been in a race to reach hero.


  

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JhyrbianWed 28-Mar-01 11:42 PM
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#30, "A few points Kah."
In response to Reply #11


          

#1
First/Second age, nobody really practiced all their skills like they are these days. In a nutshell, it was a much simpler time on the mud.

#2 Shamans don't/never did need practice to survive, especially Imperial shamans.

  

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Kah (Guest)Thu 29-Mar-01 01:43 PM

  
#31, "RE: A few points Kah."
In response to Reply #16


          

Your points are both true, and support my overall point that spam/bot/rank-sitting practicing never was, and still isn't necessary to have a successful, even deadly, character. I do agree that this might not be true for invokers, but I have the choice to not play invokers.

  

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Tolingauroth (Guest)Sun 02-Sep-01 10:43 PM

  
#32, "RE: A few points Kah."
In response to Reply #19


          

but I have the
>choice to not play invokers.

With most of whats been said i agree, but i think that for the invokers its now a hard task. As you said you have the choice not to play them but then where are we, if you went on and counted the number of invokers with regular numbers (50 - 90) you'd be lucky to find 10 playing and new ones aren't coming through, i've always just let my skills grow through solo adventuring, practicing always seemed like work and whats the point in that but now i'm trying an invoker for the first time and it seems to me that they are going the way of the druids and becoming almost extinct.

Maybe it needs to be tweaked so invokers can either use up more practices to gain there spells or perhaps different items could enhance their learning like spell books etc the way practice weapons help warrior type characters.

Isle of the Dread Wolf

  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 03-Sep-01 09:23 PM

  
#33, "RE: A few points Kah."
In response to Reply #40


          

A good point here.

You are right,invokers are becoming extinct.I tried an invoker but the thing is they get smashed even by the academy creatures and plus at lower levels ain't got much to do about magic.

I must say orcs too are at a disadvantage.They ain't warriors,they ain't mages.They ain't got hp nor they got mana,They ain't have anything ,not even basic defenses and I say till level 20-25 virtually defenseless.All they got is a big,big,big dex/con/str and nothing to use it for.

  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 03-Sep-01 10:16 PM

  
#29, "RE: Hmm..."
In response to Reply #11


          

>I'm going to agree with Tahren.
> My first character (Smoke)
>was a complete newbie, never
>practiced, was tattooed, caballed and
>immed.(yay me) All I did
>was roleplay.

No more comments.*sigh*

  

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TheFirstApostle (Guest)Wed 28-Mar-01 11:29 AM

  
#26, "RE: Hmm..."
In response to Reply #9


          

>My first two characters on the
>mud got tattoos. I had
>Shokai's tattoo and Twist's tattoo.
>They were in cabals, and
>I explored like a maniac.
>90% of my knowledge of
>Thera comes from those two
>original characters.

My experience was very similar. My first three characters were tattooed and cabaled. I never practiced any of my skills/spells/songs. I just never viewed it as being fun, and since none of my characters at that time or since have been "power rankers", I found my skill/supps/spell levels to be at competitve levels. I play(ed) the game for the roleplay and the immteraction.


> I never ONCE
>practiced skills to perfection with
>any character, save for my
>master and Twist made me
>do it! Trewyn had a
>role reason to perfect all
>of his weapons, but that
>was it.

The only character of mine that did any amount of practicing was Saerin. With Saerin, I had to. (Nepenthe made me do it!) Actually, Saerin was a carry over from the old invokers to the new invokers. I had to either practice or delete. There were a few times I had delete typed in once.

I find that I don't have the patience, the inclination and more importantly the time to practice.

>The rest I
>just got to a "reasonable
>level of reliability". I remember
>looking over my skill list
>of a storm giant axe
>spec and noticed that dodge
>was at 96 when I
>was rank 46. I still
>could kill people. I never
>once understood the practicing trap.

I played a storm warrior who never practiced a damn thing, and the skill levels never were a problem. They went up as a normal part of leveling/exploring.


>Sure there are certain skills
>that MUST be perfected. Those
>being skills like sing and
>the invoker spells. Shapeshift is
>HANDY if you get it
>perfected, but I wouldn't spam
>it for the life of
>me. I tend to do
>a lot of solo exploration
>when the competition's hot for
>me, so I get my
>practice in there. When my
>range looks sick, look for
>me in the most obscure
>places.

hmmmmmmmm. I'm very much the same way... and it makes me wonder.

>Trewyn



  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 03-Sep-01 10:39 PM

  
#27, "RE: Hmm..."
In response to Reply #13


          

Heh.

Funny.


  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 03-Sep-01 10:07 PM

  
#25, "RE: Hmm..."
In response to Reply #9


          

Heh.

Now you have tatoos,you have immteraction,you ain't new to mudding,you talk with immortals as if they were yer friends,you do this you do that,now tell me what do yer need skills fer?
If i had the best in the business I say yer still would have beaten me even if you were naked.

it is easy for ubber guys to talk like that *sigh* it ain't for guys like dunsel and me.I hopw yer understand.

p.s. Forget getting tattoed my immteraction with shokai has been restricted to him restoring me TWICE in my various charaters.The only immortal I can boast of having talked with is Pohanad.I like him a lot.
Well I have had a friendly chat with valg too but that was before valg was promoted to an immortal and I think everyone can guess what kinda conversation I must have had with her considering she/he is/was a Lich.....
hehehe

  

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ScarabaeusTue 27-Mar-01 12:31 PM
Member since 19th Feb 2011
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#41, "ArChaos, post removed"
In response to Reply #0


  

          


I think this is strike two.

If you can post something constructive that isn't abusive, it
can stay here. Otherwise, it won't.

  

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ArChaosTue 27-Mar-01 05:05 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#42, "RE: ArChaos, post removed"
In response to Reply #1


  

          

What was wrong with it? I replied to his propaganda stating how his post was incorrect...
or is this a stern attempt by the imms to remove all voices of dissention from your pages of harmony..

i'll say it straight and without ambiguity (since my points of argument have been deleted twice)

Removing the practice option was wrong and i haven't spoken to anyone who agrees with you

  

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ValguarneraTue 27-Mar-01 07:20 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#46, "Nope."
In response to Reply #4


          

What was wrong with it? I replied to his propaganda stating how his post was incorrect...

There's a difference between disagreeing, and insulting.

or is this a stern attempt by the imms to remove all voices of dissention from your pages of harmony..

As a counterpoint, you might note that a lot of threads on our forum have posts where players have chosen to disagree with staff members in a professional manner. They are not only left up, but we reply to their concerns, and take them into account when decisions are made.

I don't know what you wrote in this post, but the other one (which I removed) had a number of personal attacks on another poster. Those types of posts will be removed. If you can't discuss matters without insulting people, we will be happy to keep the forums to our more mature players.

i'll say it straight and without ambiguity (since my points of argument have been deleted twice). Removing the practice option was wrong and i haven't spoken to anyone who agrees with you.

Care to give your reasons? An argument by fiat isn't going to win over your opposition.

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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ValguarneraWed 28-Mar-01 04:47 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#52, "ArChaos' quote, text quoted with objectionable portion ..."
In response to Reply #7


          

ArChaos: You are going well out of your way to ignore the posted rules for these forums. Please review them before posting further, as you are rapidly using up your warnings. For example, I don't care to have my previous characters revealed here. Now, to your post:

First i'll state that practice as a necromancer is utterly needless, yay you for managing without, i will also say that practice is utterly needless for mages and communers.

I fail to see how parry is ultra-important to perfect for a warrior, but is irrelevant for a necromancer who fights solo often. I also fail to see how my many missed crimson scourges were any less important than your missed dirt kicks/etc.

I will not say that practice is utterly needless for the warrior types. Pray tell me when a orc will learn dodge and parry? I have one at rank 24 and despite having a damage roll of 35+ and an approx weight of 1/2 max (and 500+ hp's) couldn't tank maddie and 3 bullies in the emerald, now considering i could do this at rank 14 with other characters i find it hilarious.

One of the disadvantages of a low int/wis class is that the abilities will improve more slowly. If you can't tank Maddie, tank something a couple levels down for a while. If you really feel that your dodge/parry levels are what is holding your character back, tank some semi-tough mobs on your own for a while. Sometimes you'll hit tough streaks where things don't improve, but the code affects a lot less than the things you claimed in your post. Also, orcs aren't warriors. They're much more of a utility class than you are giving them credit for, and comparing the two isn't very accurate.

I agree with Trewyn, Scar, Kah, and others above: You can do just fine without stopping to practice in the grand scheme of things, mage or not. Too many counterexamples from recent characters exist to not take that viewpoint very seriously. I've checked out some informed opinions on this, from people who have recently played giants and such, and the myth that a fighting-type class is dead in the water without 100% everything is just that.

My advice is to try sticking it out. See how your character stacks up in PK situations, and whether or not your abilities don't hit high levels just by running around doing your regular thing. I think you'll find that your character will do a lot better than you think.

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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ArChaosWed 28-Mar-01 07:52 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#53, "Sorry you don't make much sense to me"
In response to Reply #14


  

          

A: since when were forum nicks, previous characters?


>I fail to see how parry
>is ultra-important to perfect for
>a warrior, but is irrelevant
>for a necromancer who fights
>solo often.

word of recall and aura,shield, barrier
plus, oh zombies that can rescue...



>One of the disadvantages of a
>low int/wis class is that
>the abilities will improve more
>slowly. If you can't
>tank Maddie, tank something a
>couple levels down for a
>while.

This is where you really freaking confuse me? I'm already getting 30 exp for killing maddie, how much lower can i go, and how can i possibly go lower yet learn my skills, the whole point of your change is that i don't do that?????????


> If you really
>feel that your dodge/parry levels
>are what is holding your
>character back, tank some semi-tough
>mobs on your own for
>a while.

THATS MY WHOLE POINT! THEY CAN'T!
Maddie is for rank 16's for goodness sake, how the hell is the orc supposed to handle "semi-tough" when he's already getting beaten silly by "child-like" mobs??
Plus throw in for example the 50% wimpy and i'm laughing.
Please can you give me a detailed explanation to the situation i am so obviously missing

> Sometimes you'll
>hit tough streaks where things
>don't improve,

11 hours

> but the code
>affects a lot less than
>the things you claimed in
>your post.

So why change it?

> Also, orcs
>aren't warriors. They're much
>more of a utility class
>than you are giving them
>credit for, and comparing the
>two isn't very accurate.

no, the fact that they tank pathetically and are unable to get an opportunity to practice is the point at hand



>I agree with Trewyn, Scar, Kah,
>and others above: You can
>do just fine without stopping
>to practice in the grand
>scheme of things, mage or
>not. Too many counterexamples
>from recent characters exist to
>not take that viewpoint very
>seriously. I've checked out
>some informed opinions on this,
>from people who have recently
>played giants and such, and
>the myth that a fighting-type
>class is dead in the
>water without 100% everything is
>just that.

again, your spewing extremes here, i don't want 100% in everything, you keep repeating this non desired scenario as some sort of defence.


>My advice is to try sticking
>it out. See how
>your character stacks up in
>PK situations, and whether or
>not your abilities don't hit
>high levels just by running
>around doing your regular thing.
> I think you'll find
>that your character will do
>a lot better than you
>think.

I did, my characters rp went right down the swanee as a respectable warrior when he died in every single confrontation with a necromancer (Within 2 rounds i might add) i swallowed the "don't practice" line and lost gads of con in a stupidly short length of time, it's happened every time i've done it. Mages just abuse you.

In fact i challenge you to make a rager warrior without practicing your skills -at- all and you can prove me wrong, but until you name one, i'm sorry but i don't believe you.



  

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nepentheThu 29-Mar-01 12:08 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#55, "two points (and the crowd goes wild)"
In response to Reply #15


          

If it's possible to suggest such a thing without giving offense, I really think you should just chill and back off from this topic, ArChaos. You're not really doing a whole lot more here than spitting bile, and from what I remember of your posts in the last incarnation of the forum, you're better than that.

I did want to comment on two specific points:

> So why change it?

There were a lot of complaints about practicing. In addition, you have to admit that it seems kind of silly that you could be surrounded by a bunch of kittens for a few game-hours and from this experience learn as much as there is to know about parrying attacks for life.

Some people have said: Well, if people are complaining about time spent practicing, then why not just make it much easier? At that point, I can't see bothering with skills at all anymore. Anyone who is high enough level for parry, assume them to have it at 100%. Any sword specialist warrior high enough for riposte, assume them to have it at 100%, etc. Why bother with the charade that anyone but the greenest newbie would have any skill lower than 100%?

I suspect the real issue is that a lot of players put in some time to have 100%'s and assumed that hardly anyone was doing the same. The reality is that a lot of people were. Of those that didn't, some were utter newbies who would have lost to these midbies anyway, and some were top-end players who didn't have the skills and were treating the practiced midbies like real convicts treat white-collar criminals in a maximum security prison anyway. If we've taken their placebo away, I suppose I should apologize.

> In fact i challenge you to make a rager warrior without
> practicing your skills -at- all and you can prove me wrong,
> but until you name one, i'm sorry but i don't believe you.

I've seen a fair number of warriors, some of which were Ragers and some of which weren't, that did just that and were successful. I don't think it would be fair of me to name names for several reasons, one of which being that some of these characters may have lied about their level of practiceness in cabal interviews or otherwise.

This, in fact, is what started to turn me around on the practicing issue -- I used to be as big a believer in the myth as anyone. I would see some warrior running around solo with a massively (95%+) favorable PK ratio and think, man this guy must have everything at 100. Then I'd look at their skills and see something like parry in the low 80s and dodge in the 70s. I've now seen that phenomena too many times to believe it was purely luck.

  

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ScarabaeusThu 29-Mar-01 02:53 PM
Member since 19th Feb 2011
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#62, "ArChaos, post removed (advice inside)"
In response to Reply #17


  

          


One of the moderators just removed your post.

Given the format of this forum (flaming is not allowed here)
you're going to have to back off on the caustic material in
your posts or you'll be shut down.

Legitimate questions and concerns will be addressed so long as
it's a productive process. At some point we may have to agree
to disagree.

  

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GabeThu 29-Mar-01 03:49 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#61, "RE: two points (and the crowd goes wild)"
In response to Reply #17


          

Actually, with my last hero battle-rager (Mirotrem), I never practiced any defenses, and I only practiced like parting blow i believe. And I had an ok pk ratio I do believe..but that is the fun part of playing an axe spec..heh


What it is, jive-turkey!

  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 27-Aug-01 03:26 AM

  
#56, "RE: two points (and the crowd goes wild)"
In response to Reply #17


          

>I suspect the real issue is
>that a lot of players
>put in some time to
>have 100%'s and assumed that
>hardly anyone was doing the
>same. The reality is
>that a lot of people
>were. Of those that
>didn't, some were utter newbies
>who would have lost to
>these midbies anyway, and some
>were top-end players who didn't
>have the skills and were
>treating the practiced midbies like
>real convicts treat white-collar criminals
>in a maximum security prison
>anyway.

So I am back to square one.

The earlier posts led me to believe that as a newbie I must avoid junk like practicing for hours at an end,doing reruns of kobolds and kittens for hours at a time and get on with life as they don't help much in the grander scheme of life and here it is stated that of the minority who don't some are experienced players and others are greenbies who would have lost anyway!!

So I interpret it as practice your skills,everyone is doing it and so should you unless you wanna get kicked but for the newbies it is like don't bother as you get kicked anyway?
So I did better start practicing real fast here beacuse NOBODY IS AVOIDING THE PRACTICING TRAP!!

  

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nepentheMon 27-Aug-01 10:15 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#59, "if you have to ask. . ."
In response to Reply #31


          

You're probably a greenbie who would get kicked anyway. No offense intended.

If you want to practice your skills, go ahead. I'd suggest that this is not the most productive use of your time at this point, however. It's kind of like trying to figure out what are the ideal pair of shoes to do the marathon with when you can't yet run more than a quarter mile without getting winded. Will the guy who wins have a good pair of running shoes? He might well. Would he still beat you if you traded shoes? Probably.

You have so much to learn about finding your way around the world (for many reasons. . . gathering gear and limited use items like potions, hunting, avoiding, etc.), the interplay of skills and spells and the ways in which various classes and cabal powers match up against each other. Worry about these things first.


  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 27-Aug-01 08:46 PM

  
#60, "RE: if you have to ask. . ."
In response to Reply #32


          

I am.
Aye you are right.
And plus practicing is boring.

  

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ValguarneraMon 27-Aug-01 10:22 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#57, "RE: two points (and the crowd goes wild)"
In response to Reply #31


          

So I did better start practicing real fast here beacuse NOBODY IS AVOIDING THE PRACTICING TRAP!!

You're misinterpreting Nepenthe's point. He was talking about pre-2001 CF, when practicing physical defenses was trivial- any giant could have 100% across the board in a about half an hour.

Back then, basically everyone had the 100% skills except the most newbieish people (who didn't realize how easy it was to practice), the top end (who didn't need no stinking 100% parry to whoop you), and players like me (who get bored practicing easily, and just go do other things).

By getting rid of the ridiculous kobold swarm method of practicing, you're better off not worrying about it, in my opinion. The amount of time it would take to intentionally practice the skills up would be better spent exploring, etc. And my experience has been that:

1) The skills go up anyway with time.
2) The difference between "this is where my parry ended up" and 100% parry is so small as to not be worth worrying about.
3) Intentionally practicing a skill is pretty darn boring.


From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 27-Aug-01 08:37 PM

  
#58, "RE: two points (and the crowd goes wild)"
In response to Reply #33


          

Oh.

Sorry there,I had a stinking sspicion that I was misinterpreting the post but..........Anyways like you said practicing is real boring.Thnaks for clarifying.

  

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Tolingauroth (Guest)Sun 02-Sep-01 11:30 PM

  
#54, "RE: Sorry you don't make much sense to me"
In response to Reply #15


          

In most things i've disagreed with ArChaos but here i think that their right. My orc got his tush kicked from one side of thera to the other, i'll admit i made a few enemies at the lower levels but when i reached level 28 i was whooped by a naked and i mean naked (he wasnt wearing anything at all) lvl 24 assassin, my gear was good, and i'm quite experienced yet there was nothing i could do, i ran and made my escape back to the skull village but hey even orcs shouldn't be that cowardly, i haven't played them for a few months so this may be out of date but it seemed that as they had no parry or dodge they were just cannon fodder, this is ok if you are 10 or so fighting 2 or 3 as it is in every major book ever written, only problem is orcs are a rare species in Thera not a swarm or a horde and as such they get toasted regularly.

Maybe giveing them an xp break or giving the lower levels a skill similar to the summon the clan so they can take in a goblin or something (although i get the impression this may be hard to implement) but i thought in the essence of orcs they bullied anyone lower than them so why not that as a level 11 skill, *shrug* its a suggestion.

Isle of the Dread Wolf

  

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incognitoWed 05-Mar-03 08:33 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#79, "RE: Sorry you don't make much sense to me"
In response to Reply #15


          

>>I fail to see how parry
>>is ultra-important to perfect for
>>a warrior, but is irrelevant
>>for a necromancer who fights
>>solo often.
>
>word of recall and aura,shield, barrier
>plus, oh zombies that can rescue...
>

All of these are available (substitute sanc for barrier) to a non-rager warrior in one form or another. A rager gets resist and truesight (allowing him to carry less weight which helps defend to some extent), which is nothing to be sneered at.

Mercs/pets can rescue (and there are some tough ones out there, not in shops). Warriors can blind people. Sounds similar to a necro so far to me.

Your warrior, could, for example, take maelstrom of the veils, and then the necro couldn't use the zombie rescue tactic.

While my last fighting class perfected his defenses, the previous few before that haven't (eg Lokrin, Avastin, Umble), and they did ok. Manzinul didn't perfect his until about lvl 48 (and ironhands wasn't quite perfected upon deletion). Ultimately you won't defend well if heavily maladicted, even with your 100%'s. You can't parry without a weapon etc. That 100% parry will be meaningless if you have no weapon in your hand. That 100% dodge is unlikely to be helpful once you have been impaled/boneshattered, as I have seen very few people besides myself who gear with so much +stat stuff that such things are not a problem.
>
>
>>One of the disadvantages of a
>>low int/wis class is that
>>the abilities will improve more
>>slowly. If you can't
>>tank Maddie, tank something a
>>couple levels down for a
>>while.
>
>This is where you really freaking confuse me? I'm already
>getting 30 exp for killing maddie, how much lower can i go,
>and how can i possibly go lower yet learn my skills, the whole
>point of your change is that i don't do that?????????
>

There are VERY high level mobs (possibly even higher than 51) out there that an orc could tank easily enough for the purposes of learning defenses if you wanted to, because while they are hard to defend against they don't hit hard at all. However, orcs' high hp seem, to me, to be a substitute for defenses to a large extent. These aren't mobs you will be able to kill, but you will be able to tank them for quite a long time.

>
>> If you really
>>feel that your dodge/parry levels
>>are what is holding your
>>character back, tank some semi-tough
>>mobs on your own for
>>a while.
>
>THATS MY WHOLE POINT! THEY CAN'T!

They can. Just explore and find some of the easy but high level mobs. You may think that the exploration will be a waste of time, but if you seriously consider the time you spend spamming defenses on each character, and how much exploration you could do in that time, you'd likely find a lot of useful stuff.

>Maddie is for rank 16's for goodness sake, how the hell is the
>orc supposed to handle "semi-tough" when he's already getting
>beaten silly by "child-like" mobs??

Maddy hits harder than the level 51+ mob I am thinking of right now, and the mob I am thinking of doesn't chase either. Plus Maddie has those bullies to help her. And as an orc, I wouldn't want to go and practice my skills in the Emerald Forest unless I had a deathwish.

>Plus throw in for example the 50% wimpy and i'm laughing.
>Please can you give me a detailed explanation to the situation
>i am so obviously missing
>
>> Sometimes you'll
>>hit tough streaks where things
>>don't improve,
>
>11 hours
>

Personally, I find that spamming to practice skills for that length of time in one place is less effective than taking a break and doing some stuff elsewhere, then fighting a bit in another area later, etc.

>> but the code
>>affects a lot less than
>>the things you claimed in
>>your post.
>
>So why change it?
>

To try to make people realise that 100% skills are so important? Or to make the learning of their skills a somewhat more sensible procedure than sitting in one place repeating the same thing? Exp gains reduce the longer you sit in one area. It would be easy to apply this code to spam practice. Even easier to apply one that kicks in if you aren't learning much per mob you fight.

>> Also, orcs
>>aren't warriors. They're much
>>more of a utility class
>>than you are giving them
>>credit for, and comparing the
>>two isn't very accurate.
>
>no, the fact that they tank pathetically and are unable to get
>an opportunity to practice is the point at hand
>

The fact that you can't find a mob you can tank is. They are out there, as I said. Hell, my elf invoker went to spam spells on this mob and he could take the damage it dished out quite easily.

>
>
>>I agree with Trewyn, Scar, Kah,
>>and others above: You can
>>do just fine without stopping
>>to practice in the grand
>>scheme of things, mage or
>>not. Too many counterexamples
>>from recent characters exist to
>>not take that viewpoint very
>>seriously. I've checked out
>>some informed opinions on this,
>>from people who have recently
>>played giants and such, and
>>the myth that a fighting-type
>>class is dead in the
>>water without 100% everything is
>>just that.
>
>again, your spewing extremes here, i don't want 100% in
>everything, you keep repeating this non desired scenario as
>some sort of defence.
>

Well, if you haven't got 100%, and you berserk, you've suddenly got 89% at most. That 11% will make a noticeable difference to your tanking ability. However, it should not affect whether you win or lose fights very often, if at all.

>
>>My advice is to try sticking
>>it out. See how
>>your character stacks up in
>>PK situations, and whether or
>>not your abilities don't hit
>>high levels just by running
>>around doing your regular thing.
>> I think you'll find
>>that your character will do
>>a lot better than you
>>think.
>
>I did, my characters rp went right down the swanee as a
>respectable warrior when he died in every single confrontation
>with a necromancer (Within 2 rounds i might add) i swallowed
>the "don't practice" line and lost gads of con in a stupidly
>short length of time, it's happened every time i've done it.
>Mages just abuse you.
>

Sounds to me like you went up against the necro when he had an army but you were using an offensive weapon (and probably dual wielding). That's not the approach to take in most cases (unless you are a berserker or prepped).

I'm assuming that you would have mentioned if you were maladicted up by that stage, since that would cause (and be expected to) you to die very quickly.

>In fact i challenge you to make a rager warrior without
>practicing your skills -at- all and you can prove me wrong,
>but until you name one, i'm sorry but i don't believe you.
>

I don't think imms have ever claimed that no skill is worth practice. They have said in the past that some crucial ones are. But they are likely talking about the battle changing skills like disarm, rather than ones like parry. When you get one chance to disarm between each cranial hit, you need it to be reliable. However, that 5% missing in parry might just mean you take one extra demolish from your opponent each two rounds, which shouldn't decide a combat.
>

If both players are fully prepped, a necro will beat a warrior, granted, as he'll have more time to land his maladictions. But I don't see why you should find yourself in this situation. Anyway, I'll shut up now because it seems to me that you have already made up your mind about this, and nothing anyone says will change it.

  

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sandeep (Guest)Mon 27-Aug-01 03:07 AM

  
#47, "RE: Nope."
In response to Reply #7


          

Hmm.....

Sounds like people are really sore here....

Well,I agree here that personal attacks against people should be a definite NO NO.

Though I have NOT seen the posts,since it was deleted,but I still feel that there must have been reasonable grounds for deleting it,and keep in mind I am NOT flaterring immortals here,it is just that I feel people should be mindful of each others feelings and personal attacks should be cut down strictly.

Plus there has been a post about skills by someone detailing his character skills.
I would like to add here that I,though a newbie,too have had a warrior with decent offensive and defensive skills by level 18 and all.I mean around 85+.So to say that it is a handicap is not very right.Plus even if it is everyone else has the same deal so no difference it makes.

I dislike personal attacks intensely and myself have faced it on the newbie channel,so......PERSONAL ATTACKS SHOULD BE DELETED.

  

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ArChaosTue 28-Aug-01 01:50 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#48, "RE: Nope."
In response to Reply #30


  

          

You'll notice that this thread was back in march - the insults to him were in response to him insulting me (and general swathes of the cf population).
(valg has mellowed since and so i posting here again)

  

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sandeep (Guest)Fri 31-Aug-01 07:55 AM

  
#49, "RE: Nope."
In response to Reply #36


          

Eh!

You are forgetting one thing here.Forum discussions stay alive be they back in march or 3 years ago.

Plus what I said was a general thing and accordingly it makes no difference when it is posted.People should learn to respect each other,be they imms or mortals.

Plus the fact you responded to my post proves the topic still had life.

Happy mudding.

  

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ArChaosFri 31-Aug-01 08:29 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#50, "RE: Nope."
In response to Reply #37


  

          

no this particular point does not still have life because the matters which caused it have since gone away (for me anyway)

yes the thread is still open and you are welcome to post - i would just rather not dredge over past discussions (and posting a message highlighting upon my actions, requires that i respond)

  

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sandeep (Guest)Fri 31-Aug-01 10:33 PM

  
#51, "RE: Nope."
In response to Reply #38


          

Eh....

Posting a message higltighting your actions.

Where did you get the idea that what I posted applied to you?
Whatever I have posted it was meant for the general public,not so and so person,anyways I couldn't have commented on your actions since I have never read any of your posts because they were deleted.So I don't know what happened between you and immortals.

Anyways it doesn't affect me any.The point I wanted to make is personal attacks are best kept out.Constructive criticism is and should always be welcome.And that is all there is to my previous posts too.

This point can never be dead in the water for it is applicable to everyone, everywhere.

Happy mudding.

  

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SandelloTue 27-Mar-01 07:26 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#43, "RE: ArChaos, post removed"
In response to Reply #4


          

> Removing the practice option was wrong and i haven't spoken to > anyone who agrees with you

Oh, and how many did you ask? I am pretty sure, that if the Imms held a vote here on who agrees with this change, it would be like 75% (against) vs 25%, if not more even. And if they held this vote a month later, I think most of the players would agree this is a change for good. You are just not used to it yet. It is not bad at all. Yes, fighting classes will be a bit weaker in the low ranks, but they will still beat the crap out of mages, shapeshifters included. And if you tank for your group from time to time, your defences will be perfect or very close to perfect by rank 25-30 (depending on your int). Ranking will go a bit slower, aye, but that is nothing compared to the ranking at near hero levels. And certainly it is more fun than tanking 20 kobolds. And remember, you will not be the only one who does not have defences perfected by rank 15. No one, except may be for a few level sitters, will have them perfected. So you will not be screwed in a PK fight.

And last, but not the least. Insulting the imms here will help nothing. Roll up a warrior, rank a bit, see how the skills progress. And if it actually goes bad (like by rank 35 you still have 90% parry), come and post about it here, then the imms might actually listen to you. Otherwise, you are just wasting your time.

  

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OddjobFri 20-Apr-01 02:35 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#44, "RE: ArChaos, post removed"
In response to Reply #8


          

I am pretty sure,
>that if the Imms held
>a vote here on who
>agrees with this change, it
>would be like 75% (against)
>vs 25%, if not more
>even.

They put a poll already that was horridly biased and leading towards the answer they want. It came down quickly when protested.

Yes, fighting
>classes will be a bit
>weaker in the low ranks,
>but they will still beat
>the crap out of mages,
>shapeshifters included.

At low ranks beating the crap out of mages is nothing to write home about.

And if you
>tank for your group from
>time to time, your defences
>will be perfect or very
>close to perfect by rank
>25-30 (depending on your int).

More people then I can count have sounded off on this by experience. Ive seen posts stating there are people in mid 40s with 2 skill improvements after tanking the way through. This is not what I call improving smartly.

>Roll up a
>warrior, rank a bit, see
>how the skills progress. And
>if it actually goes bad
> like by rank 35 you
>still have 90% parry), come
>and post about it here,
>then the imms might actually
>listen to you. Otherwise, you
>are just wasting your time.


I havent played in couple weeks for multiple reasons but from what I hear, nobody has 90%+ at rank 35. Of course the imms keep eluding to ways to make them improve "just as fast" or "faster" we also hear fromt he battlefront that tanking groups apparently does NOT do the trick. SO...maybe the imm's mort have nice defences. They know how to do it, I would bet anything that the majority of them grin when they see some improvements coming their way in their defences.

To think that a person with straights 75%s tanks even remotely as well as a person with JUST his defences perfected is absurd.



POSTER'S DISCLAIMER: "Of course....I don't play anymore, but its just my 2 cents."

  

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IsildurFri 04-May-01 06:57 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#45, "RE: ArChaos, post removed"
In response to Reply #25


          

> I havent played in couple weeks for multiple reasons but from what I hear, nobody has 90%+ at rank 35.

From hearing everyone's posts that's what I thought too. So I rolled up a fighter type character to see how "bad" it was. Currently:

Int: god-like
Rank: mid 20s
Hours: 41 (lots of stupid mob deaths)

trip, dirt kicking, disarm, kick, primary weapon, plus a few other class-specific skills all perfected.

parry: 96%
shield block: 92%
dodge: 86%

Now, admittedly I spent a fair number of hours perfecting my non-defensive skills. But hey, guess what, my defenses went up too. There are certain caveats to that, but I've the feeling it's not kosher to discuss them here.

The point is is this: at least with regard to "smart" races, it's not hard at all to improve one's non-defensive skills and only moderately hard to improve one's defenses.

  

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