Would the Imm staff be willing to take on people to an Immortal status high enough to run quests and have a religion rather than start at the HeroImm level? I'm not talking about former imms either.

See, I would like to contribute in that way. Almost purely on interaction and/or furthering the enjoyment of the playerbase (believe it). I am a people person. I like ambience. I have an area about 95% done and could submit it, but I don't really have the drive to hammer out anything else with it after all this time.

I just think the game needs immediate attention in this regard - it certainly does not need more areas.

The writing of the area is a time consuming activity. Not just the actual writing, but, waiting for reviews, code, etc. In that time you are waiting, you are learning about being an imm. You learn your boundaries, your learn how to deal with situations that players are having, you learn how to deal with problem players, etc. These are not things you can learn by just coming up and be given the rp end of commands.

The next thing is that new imms are required to have a mentor who oversee their progress and make sure they aren't breaking the boundaries. We would have no time to mentor these heroimms who are writing areas and want to learn to move into an admin position. We would be spending all of our time watching the new rp imm to make sure they aren't doing something wrong because all of their time logged in is just towards rp. I know that I don't want to spend my time constantly telling someone what to do or not do when I can just do it myself when I feel it is warranted.

That brings me to another point. Too much immteraction would become passe. Candy is great, but, if you have too much, it becomes bleh.

But I agree with you about this proposition.

Is it possible to start:
1. With coding, not building?
2. Without being ava...ava...avatarazing (avatared?)
3. Code some task, that Zulg gives to
4. Without any obligations.

So, just to get the task and code it...or, well, do not code it.

>Is it possible to start:
>1. With coding, not building?
>2. Without being ava...ava...avatarazing (avatared?)
>3. Code some task, that Zulg gives to
>4. Without any obligations.
>
>So, just to get the task and code it...or, well, do not code
>it.

1) Why should we trust you with our code?

2) Why would we want staff "without obligations"? So if we assign you something there's no guarantee you'll ever work on it?

3) In general, we want well-rounded staff. Even if you had the access, if you haven't demonstrated an understanding of how the game runs (building an area is a very good check of this), you're likely to build code that doesn't work well within the game, either stylistically, or mechanically.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>1) Why should we trust you with our code?
Is it really neccessary to reveal full sources? I think not. Maybe I'm mistaken, of course. But, lets say, if I am doing shifters revamp (just for example), I dont really need the access to spells of invoker, or how shop system works. At least, at the beginning of the work. And as I understand you, first few tasks will be much simpler and require much less current sources reading than shifters revamp

>2) Why would we want staff "without obligations"? So if we
>assign you something there's no guarantee you'll ever work on
>it?
Well, maybe because something its better than nothing? I agree that well rounded, all knowing, hardly working member is better, but you still have more tasks/ideas to work on, than volunteers to do this.

>3) In general, we want well-rounded staff. Even if you had
>the access, if you haven't demonstrated an understanding of
>how the game runs (building an area is a very good check of
>this), you're likely to build code that doesn't work well
>within the game, either stylistically, or mechanically.
Alas, I can not build areas, though I am interested a bit. Moreeven, I dont think its really needed for CF now.

I think the chances of writing 'bad' code are less when it is concrete written task, so the one just codes, not creates the algorithm.

Still disagree?

>
>>1) Why should we trust you with our code?
>Is it really neccessary to reveal full sources? I think not.
>Maybe I'm mistaken, of course. But, lets say, if I am doing
>shifters revamp (just for example), I dont really need the
>access to spells of invoker, or how shop system works. At
>least, at the beginning of the work. And as I understand you,
>first few tasks will be much simpler and require much less
>current sources reading than shifters revamp

I think you misunderstood. Why would we trust you with any source code at all? You haven't done anything to earn that trust.

>
>>2) Why would we want staff "without obligations"? So if we
>>assign you something there's no guarantee you'll ever work
>on
>>it?
>Well, maybe because something its better than nothing? I agree
>that well rounded, all knowing, hardly working member is
>better, but you still have more tasks/ideas to work on, than
>volunteers to do this.

No, I think nothing is better, to be quite frank. We wind up releasing source code, someone works on it, it doesn't work and we aren't happy with it, the person we had no reason to trust to begiin with whines and gets mad at our rigid stance on building things and the player gives the code out to get even.

>
>>3) In general, we want well-rounded staff. Even if you had
>>the access, if you haven't demonstrated an understanding of
>>how the game runs (building an area is a very good check of
>>this), you're likely to build code that doesn't work well
>>within the game, either stylistically, or mechanically.
>Alas, I can not build areas, though I am interested a bit.
>Moreeven, I dont think its really needed for CF now.

I disagree. There are so many areas that need to be rewritten because it doesn't hold up to the standards that the current Imps have require.

>
>I think the chances of writing 'bad' code are less when it is
>concrete written task, so the one just codes, not creates the
>algorithm.
>
>Still disagree?

Yep.

>

Well, understood your opinion.

But about areas, why do you think it is the best way to improve the game? Not saying that I am completely right (just imho) but rewriting the area will make it more interesting, yes, but will it bring more fun to the game? or more players? I doubt it.

One or two or three areas is just a small part of the world, and areas are just a part of the game itself. So it brings virtually nothing, as for me.

You have another opinion and why?

There are areas that just aren't being used that used to be in the past. The descriptions are bland, when you look in a specific direction you see nothing special there and the gear there isn't of any real use anymore.

It is a lot more than a few areas. Many are being worked on now. The new udgaard plains is a vast improvement for instance.

This work being done takes time and gives that heroimm something to add to the game. Plus, it gives them that time to learn.

1) The tools required to do that kind of interaction have a lot of potential for abuse. Gradually moving people up through the ranks helps identify people who shouldn't be trusted with that sort of abuse.

2) Running the game isn't all ####s and giggles. Sometimes, actual work needs to be done. Ask any IMP or admin about the time they've had to stay on doing some urgent task, or had to plow through hours of drudge work to get something cool put in live.

If you want all the privileges of being a staff member, you need to show us that you can do work of high quality, to specifications, fairly independently. Otherwise, my job becomes "making sure random new guy doesn't break stuff".

See, I would like to contribute in that way. Almost purely on interaction and/or furthering the enjoyment of the playerbase (believe it). I am a people person. I like ambience.

3) Then keep playing quality mortals. They contribute all of that, plus provide groupmates, PK opponents, etc.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>
>3) Then keep playing quality mortals. They contribute all of
>that, plus provide groupmates, PK opponents, etc.
>

I've kind of tossed this around, myself. The pros and cons of insta-religion-level-imms are numerous.

One counter to Valg's comment here is that quality mortals can't empower, they can't provide a more diverse selection of religions, they can't take the form of a mob and interact with a person or group to spice up the gaming experience. (And of course, any or all of these can be used well, or abused horribly).

I can get mortal interaction, groups, PK, etc. any day I decide to log in and play. I cannot have two-way interaction with mobs to further my roleplay, participate in a random quest that doesn't exist and isn't being run, or follow a god of sphere Necromancy, or Vivimancy, or Greed (just picking some empty spheres from the webpage).

Unfortunately for the OP's idea, I think it's clear that in the current state, there is definitely a need for a tiered "work-your-way-up" Imm system, and there are significant and insurmountable cons to early-advancing religion immortals who haven't been "verified", for lack of a better word. And furthermore, how is it fair to the 7-year veteran imm that he/she gets stuck debugging item code while NewbieImm gets to go play god and have fun smiting mortals?

Would anyone oppose to me contacting some of you via email and setting up some kind of thing where we can hash over various ideas about CF's mythos (which needs depth, imo), and possible questy stuff?

I wouldn't be targeting specific individuals in regards to quest ideas. Rather, I'd like to toss out scenarios and if someone likes them I could write up various colorful descriptions, mobs, rooms, etc. to make it work. Then you guys decide when and how to make it happen. I understand that the "footwork" is why things tend to move slowly in that regard. I am just offering to help out with that. Why? Personal satisfaction. Hell, I'm still happy I got a few bottles of wine snuck into the game, as well as a few emotes:

signalattack
slapthreat
crackneck
onefinger, twofinger, etc.

It'd be a fun magic world to live in where we could just sit around and think of neat concepts and "poof" they were in game. Hell, I'd sign jup for that gig any day. The staff is not lacking creativity now. Even though you claim to understand the footwork aspect, if you really did you wouldn't have posted this. I'd say for every 10 minutes of fun brainstorming / idea generation there are probably 10+ hours of "un-sexy" work to be done to get it in the game.

So, when I read your post I hear 'Hey, can I have all of my cake, and all of your cake, and eat them both, and then forcefeed you a plate of burned brussel sprouts?' No offense, but I have no desire to make your vision a reality when having the vision is the fun part and you're admitting you don't have the patience to do any of the hard work.

And responding in a condescending manner. Much appreciated.

I didn't say I wanted all of the cake. I said, in a nutshell, that I would love to help but that I don't think the area-generation approach for hero-imms is necessarily needed. Why was that deemed the absolute lowest work that has to be done before someone could advance? Surely you could base promotions on Promotional Efforts outside the game, Quest Construction, as well as Artwork and Stories to enrich it.

Again, you read that completely wrong.

nt

Why was that deemed the absolute lowest work that has to be done before someone could advance?

Because it's an excellent test of someone's overall command of the game, as well as their dedication to putting in the time necessary to make significant improvements. It includes some tasks that most people find fun, some tasks that most people don't find fun, interaction with staff members at several levels of hierarchy, creative work, game mechanics work, and a chance for us to see how you deal with guidance/feedback.

In short, I look at someone with a completed area of high quality completely differently than I do a new heroimm, or a heroimm who signs up and twaddles around the Gathering Room for weeks or months of idledom and chit-chat. Conversely, I think everyone that writes an area learns a great deal about the game and the staff, no matter how long they've been playing.

I've been open to other sorts of tasks, but it's a good bet that area construction will always be part of it. The tasks you mentioned are either one-dimensional, or else they cannot reasonably be completed in large part by a new staff member (e.g. quest construction, which requires either coding or mid-level interaction powers).

They can certainly be part of a staff member's portfolio, and there are staff members (e.g. Lyristeon) who make, say, quests/immteraction a large portion of their portfolio, and get promoted repeatedly for it. But I also know that I can ask Lyr to handle cheating, fix a broken area, answer a pray, spec out new Edges, mentor an Avatar, etc. and that he'll be informed and responsible. And sassy.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

.

To take Mekantos's side of things, why does a potential staff member need to demonstrate the ability to churn out an area file if:

1. He's already shown a grasp of game mechanics.
2. He's already shown exceptional ability to role-play.
3. All he's going to do as a staff member is run quests and provide mortals with IC interaction?

Is there a downside to having allow certain staff to exist with a very narrow focus?

>To take Mekantos's side of things, why does a potential staff
>member need to demonstrate the ability to churn out an area
>file if:
>
>1. He's already shown a grasp of game mechanics.

Because many people who think they do have a grasp...don't.

>2. He's already shown exceptional ability to role-play.
>3. All he's going to do as a staff member is run quests and
>provide mortals with IC interaction?

Because that's not all you are required to do.

>Is there a downside to having allow certain staff to exist
>with a very narrow focus?

If you have a subset who get to focus entirely on the roleplay and zero on the administration side...why wouldn't everyone join that subset? I know I don't do the administrator part because I enjoy it.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>Because many people who think they do have a grasp...don't.

Granted. Is the idea that "grasp of mechanics" (which would include game balance) isn't something you (the staff) can assess from a heroimm's time as a mortal?

>Because that's not all you are required to do.

Agreed. My question was contingent on the addition of a new "narrowly focused" staff position. If area writing is a task any staff member should be able to perform, then it makes perfect sense to require it of everyone.

>If you have a subset who get to focus entirely on the roleplay
>and zero on the administration side...why wouldn't everyone
>join that subset? I know I don't do the administrator part
>because I enjoy it.

Some people are willing to accommodate a higher level of non-enjoyable stuff than others. Lots of people are willing to write an area, beta test new features, etc. Or they might just really enjoy area writing. Others may only be interested in the role-play & interaction side of things. If you require the area, then you necessarily preclude the second group from contributing (in a staff capacity).

>>Because many people who think they do have a grasp...don't.
>
>Granted. Is the idea that "grasp of mechanics" (which would
>include game balance) isn't something you (the staff) can
>assess from a heroimm's time as a mortal?

Most of what we're looking at doesn't have anything to do with their mortal time. Answering the newbie channel, answering prays, balancing an area (avg 24 razor-edged map lying on the ground that anyone can walk up and get). Less mechanic-wise, how you work with the team, how you respond to criticism, etc.

>>Because that's not all you are required to do.
>
>Agreed. My question was contingent on the addition of a new
>"narrowly focused" staff position. If area writing is a task
>any staff member should be able to perform, then it makes
>perfect sense to require it of everyone.

Can I get a "narrowly focused" staff position that just lets me code all the time and not interact with anyone ever? Yes, that's a joke, and one of the things I learned at my years at Microsoft is to involve the community (Santa Zulg, Shifter revamp, etc).

>>If you have a subset who get to focus entirely on the
>roleplay
>>and zero on the administration side...why wouldn't everyone
>>join that subset? I know I don't do the administrator part
>>because I enjoy it.
>
>Some people are willing to accommodate a higher level of
>non-enjoyable stuff than others. Lots of people are willing
>to write an area, beta test new features, etc. Or they might
>just really enjoy area writing. Others may only be interested
>in the role-play & interaction side of things. If you require
>the area, then you necessarily preclude the second group from
>contributing (in a staff capacity).

You can do all the role-play interactiony side of things as a mortal, there is no need to be an immortal. It is not the interaction they crave, because that exists in the race/class/cabal dynamic of today. The problem of course is that people want rewards for their interaction.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>Less mechanic-wise, how you work with the team, how you respond to criticism, etc.

I'm with you on that. Just wondering if writing an area is the only way to explore someone's ability to do those things. I guess it does have the advantage of being low-risk. If somebody writes a crappy area and can't handle criticism, at least no mortals are "harmed" by having to endure crappy immteraction.

>Can I get a "narrowly focused" staff position that just lets
>me code all the time and not interact with anyone ever?

You joke, but I seriously wouldn't have a problem with that. Not for me, I mean, but for you, if that's what you really want to do. Like you said elsewhere, this isn't a job. As long as everything that needs to get done is getting done, letting people focus on the things that most appeal to them might help prevent burnout.

>You can do all the role-play interactiony side of things as a
>mortal, there is no need to be an immortal.

For the most part, yeah. I think people are just remembering how much it made their day the first time an imm inhabited some mob and started talking to them, and wishing they could help make that stuff happen more regularly. As a player I might be able to provide someone with quality mortal interaction, but it still won't "wow" them as much as if I had done the same thing as an imm.

You joke, but I seriously wouldn't have a problem with that. Not for me, I mean, but for you, if that's what you really want to do. Like you said elsewhere, this isn't a job. As long as everything that needs to get done is getting done, letting people focus on the things that most appeal to them might help prevent burnout.

If the staff attitude is "You only need to do whatever you find personally appealing.", tasks get sorted arbitrarily, not by need.

Right now, the attitude is that while you get to control the general idea of your portfolio, if something needs to be done now, we want each staff member to be both willing and capable of doing that task. Your plan decreases the chance of both of those things.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Right now, the attitude is that while you get to control the
>general idea of your portfolio, if something needs to be done
>now, we want each staff member to be both willing and
>capable of doing that task. Your plan decreases the
>chance of both of those things.

What I had in mind could theoretically only help. Say right now you have 10 staff who can do it all. I was thinking of a scenario where you still had the 10 do-it-all guys, but maybe an extra 5 interaction-only guys to boot. So the staff as a group would keep the same capacity for completing non-interaction-y tasks, but would gain an increased capacity for interacting with mortals.

It probably comes out in the wash, though. The time spent by the interaction-only guys on staff would probably come directly out of the time they spend playing mortals, which would decrease the quality/quantity of mortal-on-mortal interaction.

>>Right now, the attitude is that while you get to control
>the
>>general idea of your portfolio, if something needs to be
>done
>>now, we want each staff member to be both willing and
>>capable of doing that task. Your plan decreases the
>>chance of both of those things.
>
>What I had in mind could theoretically only help. Say right
>now you have 10 staff who can do it all. I was thinking of a
>scenario where you still had the 10 do-it-all guys, but maybe
>an extra 5 interaction-only guys to boot. So the staff as a
>group would keep the same capacity for completing
>non-interaction-y tasks, but would gain an increased capacity
>for interacting with mortals.

And this is why I made my joke. If you do something like this, I guarantee you don't have the 10 do-it-all guys anymore. They find themselves a niche they like (and I don't know many people who enjoy administration).

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Not to mention that you would need 5 of the know-it-all guys to watch the 5 interaction guys which cuts out the time of the 10 know-it-all guys in half because which doubles the workload of the know-it-all guys. Yes, this post was meant to be confusing. You don't give the keys to the car to the kid who doesn't have a driver's license yet.

nt

>Why was that deemed the absolute lowest work that has to be
>done before someone could advance?

I like it because it's educational. It teaches you a lot about how the game is put together which is useful for other things.

For example, if you haven't written an area and don't understand all of the pieces involved, you're probably not competent to run your own quests if they include any sort of custom mobs, objects, or rewards, even given the tools to do so.

>Surely you could base
>promotions on Promotional Efforts outside the game, Quest
>Construction, as well as Artwork and Stories to enrich it.

I'm all about promotions, stories, and artwork, although you don't actually need to be an imm to produce those things, do you?

As far as quest construction... now you're either talking about coming up with the idea for a non-automated quest that will take me a bunch of time to run, or an automated quest that will take me a bunch of time to code. The creative part is by far the easy/fast part in both cases, at least for me.

.

I mean seriously the game has been around for a decade plus. Do you guys have a system of continual improvement where your re-examining your business processes and striving to remove the waste? This means looking at things from a value added stand-point. And this does not mean your viewpoint as the administrator, it means our viewpoint as the customer. Not to steal your thunder but why after so many years is it still such a long process to do anything in this game?

If you want to improve the quality of cf something to look at is the lead times associated with implementation. Now I am sure you will flip around and say that there is no possible way to improve them but thats everyones first response (and 99.9999999999999% of the time the wrong one). Perhaps you should consider having a third party review some of your processes. Not saying you need to divulge trade secrets but there might be some things you can do to make this game better for us the player and you the immortal.

>I mean seriously the game has been around for a decade plus.
>Do you guys have a system of continual improvement where your
>re-examining your business processes and striving to remove
>the waste? This means looking at things from a value added
>stand-point. And this does not mean your viewpoint as the
>administrator, it means our viewpoint as the customer. Not to
>steal your thunder but why after so many years is it still
>such a long process to do anything in this game?

Because it's a volunteer operation, not a path to fiscal security.

>If you want to improve the quality of cf something to look at
>is the lead times associated with implementation. Now I am
>sure you will flip around and say that there is no possible
>way to improve them but thats everyones first response (and
>99.9999999999999% of the time the wrong one). Perhaps you
>should consider having a third party review some of your
>processes. Not saying you need to divulge trade secrets but
>there might be some things you can do to make this game better
>for us the player and you the immortal.

Having a third party review some of our processes, means spending money on something that we do as a volunteer basis. You're making this a second job (which it already feels like at times).

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>>>Because it's a volunteer operation, not a path to fiscal security.

I was expecting a response along these lines. Let me translate this for the players. We as the imm staff are not interested in doing things better over the course of time because we enjoy working harder to affect the same results. Just because your not recieving money for your product does not mean cf is not one. further because the processes are performed by volunteers does not mean they can't be examined and improved upon. This should be easier with volunteers because would you rather spend 2 hours working on a project or one?

This also does not need to cost money. Often times some of the biggest time/cost savers are free. You could run a streamlining event once a month where you as an imm staff examine a process and think of a way to do it better/easier for you. You spend X amount of hours at this time with the hope of saving even more hours in the future.

For example areas are still entirely written by hand. this is a lot more time consuming then using a development tool or creating a development tool to facilitate the writing. I mean there is one thing if you changed in some way that could help the imm staff over all. By reducing time to write and get an area into the game (not by working harder but by working better) you now cut down the rate of heroimm failure.

If you do not try to continually improve your processes as cf gets bigger eventually the immstaff will get crushed. these changes will indirectly affect the player and directly affect you. You keep talking about those 10 hours of grunt work to add to the game why not attack the reasons it takes 10 hours and not 4.

>>>Having a third party review some of our processes, means spending money on something that we do as a volunteer basis. You're making this a second job (which it already feels like at times).

well I mean if your doing this for the fun of doing this, why not do it well. This process doesn't have to cost you money. It could be something you talk to a friend about. so on and so forth.

the process sounds like extra work but in reality once you sit down and do it once or twice its really not that hard at all. Cf is a business and while you guys don't get paid perhaps you should consider incorporating more business-like ideas, such as dedicating marketing immortals.

>
>>>>Because it's a volunteer operation, not a path to fiscal
>security.
>
>I was expecting a response along these lines. Let me
>translate this for the players.

Why don't you just translate for yourself, you look like less of an asshole that way.

>We as the imm staff are not
>interested in doing things better over the course of time
>because we enjoy working harder to affect the same results.

This is my hobby, not my job. I do it because I like to, not because I'm paid to. I think I do it well and continue to make a positive impact on the game.

What you talk about I do on a daily basis at my real job (I'm a Test Lead at Microsoft). Some of that is reflected in my work here. Am I going to tear down CF and conform it into that sort of business model. No.

>Just because your not recieving money for your product does
>not mean cf is not one. further because the processes are
>performed by volunteers does not mean they can't be examined
>and improved upon. This should be easier with volunteers
>because would you rather spend 2 hours working on a project or
>one?

Nice "trap" question. There are many processes that have been improved on over time. Just recently I added in a new command for immortals to flag roles, trying to add some consistency and ease of use for the entire staff. Things like this happen behind the scenes all the time and you don't need to know about them.

>This also does not need to cost money. Often times some of
>the biggest time/cost savers are free. You could run a
>streamlining event once a month where you as an imm staff
>examine a process and think of a way to do it better/easier
>for you. You spend X amount of hours at this time with the
>hope of saving even more hours in the future.
>
>For example areas are still entirely written by hand. this is
>a lot more time consuming then using a development tool or
>creating a development tool to facilitate the writing. I mean
>there is one thing if you changed in some way that could help
>the imm staff over all. By reducing time to write and get an
>area into the game (not by working harder but by working
>better) you now cut down the rate of heroimm failure.
>
>If you do not try to continually improve your processes as cf
>gets bigger eventually the immstaff will get crushed. these
>changes will indirectly affect the player and directly affect
>you. You keep talking about those 10 hours of grunt work to
>add to the game why not attack the reasons it takes 10 hours
>and not 4.

That's all great in theory. Do you want us spending all of our time trying to improve our process and never actually improve the game? Your example of writing a tool to do area generation is a perfect example. It would probably take me three times as long to get a tool done and in any sort of working state as it will to get the shifter revamp done. So far it's been about 6 months of my freetime. So in 18 months (with no visible changes to CF), you can get a tool that'll help you write areas better/quicker. Which is more valuable? I'd argue the shifter revamp.

>>>>Having a third party review some of our processes, means
>spending money on something that we do as a volunteer basis.
>You're making this a second job (which it already feels like
>at times).
>
>well I mean if your doing this for the fun of doing this, why
>not do it well.

Thanks for the backhand. I do think I do it well.

>This process doesn't have to cost you money.
>It could be something you talk to a friend about. so on and
>so forth.
>
>the process sounds like extra work but in reality once you sit
>down and do it once or twice its really not that hard at all.
>Cf is a business and while you guys don't get paid perhaps you
>should consider incorporating more business-like ideas, such
>as dedicating marketing immortals.

One of the things about a volunteer organization...you're there because you have something to offer and a point of interest. My interests lie in architecting and coding features/solutions to the game. I have very little knowledge or desire to market. Honestly...I don't even know where to start, or how to go about it. I don't think there are very many (if any) on the staff who understand/want to market. I'd love it if we did, and they'd probably have free reign to go do that, but we don't.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>Your example of writing a tool to do area
>generation is a perfect example. It would probably take me
>three times as long to get a tool done and in any sort of
>working state as it will to get the shifter revamp done. So
>far it's been about 6 months of my freetime. So in 18 months
> with no visible changes to CF), you can get a tool that'll
>help you write areas better/quicker. Which is more valuable?
>I'd argue the shifter revamp.

I actually spent some time thinking about this while working on my area. (Time I should have spent on the area itself, as it turns out.) What struck me as the most complicated part is that rooms needn't conform to normal 3d space, so you can't just map them onto a 3d grid. It has to be an arbitrary graph, which is a lot harder to represent visually.

One side thought: how much time do you estimate will be spent creating and/or editing areas before CF eventually shuts down? How much of that time would be saved if a graphical editor were available? If the saved time is more than the 18 months it would take you to build the thing, then in the long run it might be worthwhile.

The counter-argument, of course, is that your time (as an Implementor) is worth much more than the time spent by heroimms creating their areas. So it's not an apples to apples comparison.

>One side thought: how much time do you estimate will be spent
>creating and/or editing areas before CF eventually shuts down?
> How much of that time would be saved if a graphical editor
>were available? If the saved time is more than the 18 months
>it would take you to build the thing, then in the long run it
>might be worthwhile.
>
>The counter-argument, of course, is that your time (as an
>Implementor) is worth much more than the time spent by
>heroimms creating their areas. So it's not an apples to
>apples comparison.

A valid point, however the 18 months then also has to include maintenance of the tool. At one point I tried to write a quick and dirty "verification" tool that would at least let you know that you had exits right, flags, etc. That tool no longer exists because the maintenance cost to keep it up to date was worse than just loading an area and fixing the bugs.

I also like that you bring up balancing of resources, as I deal with that on almost a daily basis. The time of a 7 figure V.P. is much more valuable to the bottom line, than the time of a 5 figure individual contributor. I don't think the delta between the top and bottom of CF immortalhood is nearly that drastic, but it does exist in impact made on the game.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

nt

~

This was a horribly written post, but he does make a couple solid points.

I think what CF really lacks is someone with a vested interest in it. I know the volunteer imps all work hard, and you all care about the result of your work. But this isn't anyones baby, there isn't an "owner" ... and I think at the end of the day the scope of what the staff is looking at isn't broad enough.

He's right, okay - a lot of time is spent polishing the brass on the titanic. As a consultant I see this all the time - a business owner spends all his time in the one area of the business that he enjoys, but not necessarily the one with the highest return. New skills, class revamps, quests all that stuff is great... but those aren't the things that bring new players. (or replacement players)

The current immstaff is jaded. You guys make flippant, unprofessional comments to players. I know it's a volunteer game... but look, the owner of the company can't be a #### to customers and expect to continue to do good business. I know you guys take so much crap, and it isn't fair, and there's not a payoff... but responding in kind creates a lose lose.

You need fresh unjaded people on the staff - people who are having fun and enjoying what they do. You also need staff members who are doing the really simple, free things you can do to bring in players. Why don't these things get done? Well it's pretty much what laxman is describing - slow implementation. I'm guessing maybe one out of twenty or so heroimms ever make it to 53. Ugh, people... this isn't a ninja society... that's TOO exclusive. I know that you have to screen people, but from personal experience you guys do a good job of turning off and driving away good people who honestly want to help out.

I think those of us out here who understand business look at Carrion Fields LLC and just see a really poorly run company that is, sadly, on it's way out. Whether you are a non profit or not, your a business, and to be succesful you probably need to act like one. Right now it feels like a sandbox at the local cool kids house that we're allowed to play in. That worked better for us in college, and better when there weren't so many rules for the sandbox.

Valg, Nep, Zhulg did a tremendous job of cleaning up the game when the original leadership fell out. Hey, thanks! Now I think there needs to be some leadership with a wider vision for CF. This game is great... the adminstration is horrible.

I get it! It's volunteer! But... unless you want to be volunteering for an empty mud we really need to start making some changes.

Also, while I'm ranting let me just say that from my observations playing the game and talking to other players and X staff(some I've known now for 10 years or more!)the playerbase is getting just as jaded as the immstaff. Eventually what you end up with is all the biggest #### players left, and players who aren't ####s but are starting to act like it because they are forced to deal with the ####s all the time. You have to affect the ratio of #### to non-#### players by adding new players.

So yea, that's my .02 - but unfortunatly these posts never really lead anywhere, and I'm left feeling like I just wasted fifteen minutes of my life. Ugh...

>I'm guessing maybe one out of twenty or so
>heroimms ever make it to 53. Ugh, people... this isn't a ninja
>society... that's TOO exclusive. I know that you have to
>screen people, but from personal experience you guys do a good
>job of turning off and driving away good people who honestly
>want to help out.

Do you think we're not hoping that they will be successful? Do you think they are pulling their weight and we're just saying #### off?

Honestly...they have to contribute, and when they don't they go away. This isn't a facebook group. You don't get to just join and that's the end of it.

Most of the Avatars that have left, have done so because they finally saw behind the curtain, and realized that's not what they want from CF.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

To join your facebook group. There's no way you're as creepy looking as that old picture on Lynx's site. Tree hugger.

Started by: Anders Tetlie Karlsen (Norway)

I am a member of it...granted...there seems to be very little traffic.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

The last thing I want is a bunch of CF hooligans going unf unf unf to pictures of my wife. Crazy foreigners.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Dallevian and Zulghinlour room, a special place where you and I joke, laugh, and tell special stories. In?



Fine, fine, I'll check out the CF group.

I know your hoping they are succesful.

Your process for staff development is not good.

I once contracted to a mortgage broker who wanted me to train is L.Os in basic salesmanship. The guy had a staff of four at the time, all on 100% commission. He wanted them to do well, obviously, because for every deal they brought in he was pocketing $3,500+ depending on the Y.S.P. However this guy was a horrible manager. His exact words to me were, "Our training program is great because it's sink or swim."

Basically he wasn't giving them any training in mortgage banking, and he was generally stand offish when they asked for help. He was really great at creating underwriting models that were very marketable. (He basically streamlined the whole re-fi your way out of chapter 13 thing.) Brilliant products, smart guy... but ultimatly he couldn't develop decent staff, and they always left in a matter of months.

If you want to keep staff it can never be sink or swim, and it's really not a good idea to just drop an area project on them. It's a lot of work, and feedback is slow. Now I know the people who can do the coding etc. are busy, that's not my point. It would probably be significantly better to give Lyristeon a team of three heroimms, let him project manage and have the team create an area. I'd imagine that would reduce burnout, and be more fun for everyone involved.

Staff should be nurtured along. I know you guys don't like that idea, but it's true. That's how you build a long time team. I tell people they need to treat their staff like younger siblings.

It's okay to challenge you're hero imms, but maybe you need to set up smaller steps of progress so that they can percieve their own achievment.

>> Your process for staff development is not good.

So, you understand the process of staff development enough to understand this? Which IMM were you again?

I apologize for sounding crass, but it annoys me to no end when people have a certain level of expertise in field A, and then just assume that this knowledge naturally applies to B,C,D,....

I could be completely wrong in any of my own assumptions, but I would guess that making this CF thing like more like a "professional project" for the folks who work on it would probably sink it quicker than any thing else.

Your response seems vaguely like it's asking for a flame, but I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.


>>> Your process for staff development is not good.
>
>So, you understand the process of staff development enough to
>understand this? Which IMM were you again?

I can see a large number of people join the staff and quickly fail. I don't need intuitive knowledge from my experience as an imm, I have statistical evidence of a low success rate.


>
>I apologize for sounding crass,

No offense taken.

but it annoys me to no end
>when people have a certain level of expertise in field
>A, and then just assume that this knowledge naturally
>applies to B,C,D,....

Right now I currently have 4 paid employees and a volunteer staff of 14, not to mention vendors. All happily trucking along. I have had as many as 30 full time employees under me.

>
>I could be completely wrong in any of my own assumptions, but
>I would guess that making this CF thing like more like a
>"professional project" for the folks who work on it would
>probably sink it quicker than any thing else.

Not sure what to make of this... I think orginization will make any project more enjoyable. We can have a requirement that everyone work on an area pretty much by themselves for a period of multiple months, but we can't expect them to work on a team? I'm not sure I get what your saying.

Your response seems vaguely like it's asking for a flame, but I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks. Not a flame.

Your process for staff development is not good.
... I can see a large number of people join the staff and quickly fail. I don't need intuitive knowledge from my experience as an imm, I have statistical evidence of a low success rate.

In my mind, low success rate != process not being good. Not necessarily. Now, I don't know either way in this case, but I do know there can be other factors leading to the perceived success or failure of a project than process. Perhaps it really is more difficult than people think prior to imming? Maybe it is tough to screen folks you found off the internet who play a digital version of D&D? Maybe it isn't as fun as people thought and they'd rather just play instead? Or, like you imply, maybe their process really does suck. I was just wondering how you came to that conclusion.

>I could be completely wrong in any of my own assumptions, but
>I would guess that making this CF thing like more like a
>"professional project" for the folks who work on it would
>probably sink it quicker than any thing else.

Not sure what to make of this... I think orginization will make any project more enjoyable. We can have a requirement that everyone work on an area pretty much by themselves for a period of multiple months, but we can't expect them to work on a team? I'm not sure I get what your saying.

If it were me, I wouldn't want to donate my time for free toward something that felt like work. Ugh.

I suppose what I'm trying to say all boils down to, why would you assume that CF should be run similar to any sort of profit-based organization? Don't they all donate their time for this thing?

>In my mind, low success rate != process not being good. Not
>necessarily. Now, I don't know either way in this case, but I
>do know there can be other factors leading to the perceived
>success or failure of a project than process. Perhaps it
>really is more difficult than people think prior to imming?
>Maybe it is tough to screen folks you found off the internet
>who play a digital version of D&D? Maybe it isn't as fun as
>people thought and they'd rather just play instead? Or, like
>you imply, maybe they're process really does suck. I was just
>wondering how you came to that conclusion.

Okay, look at it like this. If you have a statistic that you are unhappy with, and you want to change that statistic you take all of the things your talking about into consideration and figure out how to affect change. Right? So you say to yourself, "What can we do in the process of training staff that will reduce burnout, that will help them to see the fun side of imming, that will teach them the fundamental skills, that will screen out the bad apples - but raise the success rate of our avatars?" And then you go from there.


>I suppose what I'm trying to say all boils down to, why would
>you assume that CF should be run similar to any sort of
>profit-based organization? Don't they all donate they're time
>for this thing?

I think you guys are confusing the issue by assuming that being for profit or not for profit has anything to do with it. What you have is an orginization with an objective, and so you have to do the things that effectively take an orginization to it's objective.

As an aside, it would be nice to see a CF mission statement even if it were just, "To provide a free internet game for people to enjoy."

So, you understand the process of staff development enough to understand this? Which IMM were you again?

He was a heroimm for 11 days.

As Nep, Zulgh, Cyradia, and others have alluded to elsewhere, the limiting resource is not ideas. Every staff member has many more ideas then can be completed. If all you're contributing is ideas, and you aren't exceptionally experienced, there's a good chance that you aren't actually doing anything you couldn't be doing as a player via our forums, email, whatever. The responsibility, accountability, and overhead of another staff position isn't worth it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

He was a heroimm for 11 days.

I didn't know that. Not that 11 days is likely long enough to know it all, it is infinitely longer than my zero days. Apologies to Stunna.

As Nep, Zulgh, Cyradia, and others have alluded to elsewhere, the limiting resource is not ideas. Every staff member has many more ideas then can be completed. If all you're contributing is ideas, and you aren't exceptionally experienced, there's a good chance that you aren't actually doing anything you couldn't be doing as a player via our forums, email, whatever. The responsibility, accountability, and overhead of another staff position isn't worth it.

This is a good point I think should be highlighted. I've worked on enough coding projects to see the mythical man month in all its glory. Furthermore, all it takes is one sub-par (or worse!) programmer to turn some code which has been running for 13+ years relatively flawlessly into mush. That's a pretty hefty risk of failure, imo. It's a testament to all involved that it still works at all .

The problem is that all your people are working hard on making a better game, and no one is working on getting people to play it.

If you build a better mouse trap all you have is a better mouse trap, the world will beat a path to McDonalds cuz they gots good advertising.

'It would probably be significantly better to give Lyristeon a team of three heroimms, let him project manage and have the team create an area. I'd imagine that would reduce burnout, and be more fun for everyone involved.'

I think this is an awesome idea. Give two or three hero imms a project to work on, even if it's bigger than just an area and I think you'd see people that would be a lot more motivated and less exasperated and in a mindset of 'wow this is soooooo much work' like I was. I remember it took me about a week just to get my head around the area writing concept - that is writing a description for every mob, wall, look up, look down, chain- etc on top of being super creative and the logistics of the area itself. I think if you split it up among a couple fellow hero imms it'd be a lot more fun and you would see less hero imms just giving up.

Having said that, I think a lot of Avatars will still fall into the group of simply not liking what they saw behind the curtain.

Anyway this is just an idea, you guys do what you do for a reason, and I respect that very much so.

2) Running the game isn't all ####s and giggles. Sometimes, actual work needs to be done. Ask any IMP or admin about the time they've had to stay on doing some urgent task, or had to plow through hours of drudge work to get something cool put in live.


I dont think any of don't know this. And we, well I'll speak for myself... I really appreciate and know many others do too.

So thanks to all of you for this.

Bryan

Bryan