Hate to go off into a rant here, but...
Despite the great aspects of CF, which are many, I am a bit disappointed with how it is like to be an evil character. The
whole idea of being evil seems fractured. I always imagined the
epic-like idea as evils raping the countryside, preying on the weak, and dominating the world. All of a sudden, however, a group of Paladins and other do-gooders strive to destroy the evil, often with the aid of gods to help them with their heroic, valiant quest in order to put them on par with the legions of evil. I suppose that is why the Marans, Warlocks and Sylvans (who aren't anti-evil, but who have a fairly good-like task themselves and always fight the evils) have these powers to conquer these cruel dominators. Marans get eyes of fire which makes it very tough for them to be slept by anti-paladins and necromancers and I just heard they also have a power which easily puts sight of the damned to shame, which didn't need any help in the first place. Warlocks get counterspell and the two wards which one is made specifically to counter Necromancers, and Sylvans get their thorns and insect swarm, which makes them feared and specialized fighters for whenever anyone steps in their wilds, not to mention especially if they are competent, which has been an issue lately and which is why I haven't really complained much about them =).

Anyways, my point is that when I look at my pk range at the distented hero level -on average- I see me and another Scion, three Sylvans, 2 Marans, 2 Dawns, 2 Warlocks, and maybe a Herald. Every so often the Scarab Flame is added to the list or Rio is waiting in the shadows ready to blackjack me.

This is nice, lots of targets, great, but 95% of the people out there are specially designed to kill -me-. I remember someone once complained about the Warlock's counterspell and wards since he was a Necromancer, and the response was "Well Warlocks were designed to fight off evil mages, they should have this power." and the eyes of fire, same response, Sylvans, same but to protecting forests. Everybody seems to have powers especially designed to hurt and kill evils/forest trespassers, who the hell are we supposed to be terrorizing anyways? The Sylvans are always in the woods, like they are supposed to be, so if I want to fight them I -have- to enter their specialized territory. The Marans are often Paladins with annihilating wraths which, with protections available, still hurt, I'm just glad I'm a Necromancer and can carry protections, and I feel sorry for the warrior types out there who are limited in this area. All Marans have a searing heat attack which specifically harms Orcs, Duergars, and Drows(I think?) not to mention the hellish damage they take from wrath. It is quite difficult for Orcs to use their ambushing tactics against Sylvans because of their general nature, habitat and forest powers. Dawns are usually mediocre prey, they're usually with Marans however and, well if I wasn't a Necromancer(or AP) I'd have nothing to keep them from instantly teleporting back to their Tar'abal.

If anything, at hero ranges, evils are the more virtuous ones, we have to be. Several times I have thrown myself at snares with protections when I thought Plyate wasn't around to sleep me, knowing two rangers were about. When they would ambush, I'd faerie fire and flee, vamp touch a few things, come back and try to sleep one of them. To be honest it worked a lot of the time, but thats when the wands were around and a Sylvan bard wasn't. This is how I had to fight if I was going to fight the Sylvans at all, now its just plain suicide and sometimes I still try it despite what would likely happen.

Now, of course, we evils have the opportunity to have Liches. If that is what is supposed to be our great destructive equalizer, then what is really being said is that we are designed to be a group of cohorts huddling around one powerful figure, my general impression of what the goods should be doing to their "few and far in between paladins". If that is the case, then what is being implied is that the Scions should get their ass in gear, rank Necromancers to Spectre-hood and attempt the Becoming in mass. That is our option to become the terrors that we are supposed to be. I know at this task I can only point the finger at myself, but I'm just trying to get a clear view on how the fights between good and evil are supposed to be. I'd be interested in hearing any immortal responses.

Here is my take on what exactly I see as the problem with Scion.


They way its set up, we have two many enemies. I know we have a lot of members but unlike other cabals Scion is as things stand an all or none cabal. Either there are enough hero's on to scare off all the sylvans, ragers, maran, dawn, warlocks and we have all their items. But the moment some of our hero's quit out not only do we lose the items we lose our own as well.

The sanc situation, not only is the roleplay of an evil healer more challenging and empowerment harder, the choice of gods evil healers have is limited as well. So scion's are always fighting an uphill battle as far as sanctuary is concerned. Top this off with the hoard of paladins and healers that maran and dawn have and scion is almost always on the losing end of the sanc battle.

Aura, barrier and shield, went from effective means of damage reduction to relics of how things once were. Many of the immortals and the players have agreed that this damage reduction system is not the best and it could use an upgrade. Upgrades I have seen none, downgrades on the other hand... Aura and shield have become quite hard to get. Barrier well lets just let that one go, its been beat into the ground already. These do however severly hurt a mage's ability to put up a fight against classes with 'natural' damage reduction. Shamans, paladins, certain forms. And since for some odd reason evil healers and shamans are rare in cf. Scion mages are affected by this more than the warlocks or sylvan mages.

One thing that almost everyone is overlooking is that skill level involved in playing hero scions. You may notice that only the skilled scion players make it to hero where as on the other hand almost all of the maran, dawn, warlock characters get to hero. As a result fewer and fewer newbies want to play scions.
Look at the average skill level on a scion hero and a warlock/dawn/maran hero and you will know exactly what I mean. Its not fair to 'punish' a cabal for their skill, I use that term very lightly.

I know you guys want to make the game more exciting and challenging but stacking the game in against one particular allignment or cabal isnt really the way to go. Just my 2 cents



Fom fom

I don't necessarily buy your "skill" argument. The nature of "good" is that you support all around you, including the lesser-skilled folks. That's why the good cabals rank everyone up so easily. Essentially, the reason that people who excel at playerkilling tend to gravitate toward evil is that being evil affords them more opportunity to do what they enjoy most --playerkill. When I think of good and evil, I think of a balanced good with lots of average people fighting together for a cause, and when I think of evil I think of a couple bad-ass badguys who are the archvillains of the world. It's not so unfair and unbalanced because that's the way it always has been and always will be. I will say, however, that I feel Scions get the ass-end of the deal on the sanc/barrier deal. Maybe it *would* be fair if the traditionally "evil empowerment" gods empowered and tattooed as easily as some of their goodie counterparts, but they don't. That is the only reason I think that the cabals are inherently imbalanced. But don't whine too much, Scions. You could be Battle.

My personal opinion on your barrier/aura/shield wand argument as being effective damage reduction items for Scions is that it became TOO effective. This from an ex-rager who had to deal with all these damn mages having barrier/aura/shield and the old transform (the one that doubled your natural max hp). Now that was a bitch to deal with.

Look at today, the above wands are limited so you can't hoard them like you used to. Sanc items that existed prior to the coming of barrier/aura/shield wands were plentiful and taken out of the game. Transform is not what it used to be but definitely a helpful tool. Now, by making the barrier/aura/shield stuff limited, you can't hoard them like you used to. The decent sanc items that were around were mostly limited with a few exceptions (Anyone remember the potions from the hobgoblins? Purple or was it deep purple potions?).

My point, just seems like after seeing what new things that the Imms decide to implement, they decide what needs some tweaking. This is supposedly game balance between everyone. I see your point in saying Scions are screwed out of sanctuarys while the goodies have a near monopoly of sanc priests. There is an imbalance and you are right it is tough to RP an evil healer and get empowerment. But is the solution making barrier/aura/shield rods easier to obtain or non-limited so you can have an near endless supply of them? When it gets to that point, who needs a friggen healer and their sanctuary?

Erakee

Well. First thing's first: The Rant.
Zulghinlour, get off your fat ass and make scions able to compete. It's fucking impossible to have a cabal who'se opposing fortress has four cabals defending it 24/7. Sylvans have their heads so far up the maran's asses it's not even funny. They don't even protect forests anymore. The only things i've seen the sylvans guarding is a) an undead maran tara-bal and b) some brambles near hamsah mutazz once in awhile. It's sad really. Sylvans sit for hours, i'm talking literally, sit for hours without moving outside the fortress waiting for anyone to wander by. Maran's don't do *anything* unless they have 5-6 people with them, i have to wonder where the hell the fun is in that? With the wands being moved to lord knows where we have all these mages with the potential to turn the entire cabal war around but
damned if anyone can find it, so whoever has the over abundance of sanc basically wins these cabal wars, and frankly that's plain retarded. There's nothing interesting in that, it's just the same ##### every day..

As for the char, heh. Not real much to say, just a throw around char to play with.

Daemelin's gonna age-die soon, so instead of just having him to hang around with when i play there'll be me against seven/eight maran/warlocks/sylvans/dawnies... figure i might as well get the inevitable done with.

Zulghinlour, get off your fat ass and make scions able to compete. It's fucking impossible to have a cabal who'se opposing fortress has four cabals defending it 24/7.

Average PK ratio of heros (including only heroes who played the majority of their life in that cabal, compiled off the graveyard):
Scion: 65%
Sylvan: 63%
Maran: 60%

Apparently, Scions aren't getting their ass kicked as bad as you'd like to believe. Actually, given the error inherent to the small data set, all three are doing equally well.

With the wands being moved to lord knows where we have all these mages with the potential to turn the entire cabal war around but damned if anyone can find it,

Scion's most deadly members tend to be mages or anti-paladins. Since they are the ones who benefit from wands, I'd say your argument is baseless.

so whoever has the over abundance of sanc basically wins these cabal wars, and frankly that's plain retarded.

Being that Scion has maybe 3 members who can cast that spell, and given the above numbers, you are wrong.

As for the char, heh. Not real much to say, just a throw around char to play with.

This may be the root of the problem you see. You were around for a few days, killed a bunch of people at the low/mid ranks, and started getting tougher competition at hero. Based on your experience of a few days, you have decided that cabals require permanent adjustment. You will excuse me if I don't take your opinion very seriously.

Ryfivin, the facts don't back up your arguments at all. So, instead of demanding that Zulghinlour (*) (a volunteer, by the way) rush to code new things so that your self-proclaimed "throwaway character" can kill more Fortress members, perhaps you should look more critically at your own level of skill.

(*): Who already has a huge pile of things on his plate. Trust me, the man is busy.

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

If you want to disagree with Valguarnera I'm fine with that, but you need to keep it a little closer to the civil side. m'kay?

Your posts need to be about 65% less presumptious. First of all, that little pk ratio stat really doesn't mean almost anything. It isn't nearly as black/white as you make it out to be. Here's one little theory I have about it... having played in the fortress, as a scion, and as a sylvan (though not all have been recent). The majority of evils past rank 30 tend to be scions. Goodies and neutrals, however, are often all over the map. Most scions kill just about everyone, while goodies are far more focused. I'd wager that a large chunk of that scion pk ratio are players who aren't necessarily sylvans or fortress members. And no, i'm not saying that sylvans or marans never kill non-scions, but I will assert that scions on average kill a lot more out of their typical cabal war pks. Now, on to yet another of your assumptions. How exactly do you know that Ryfivin isn't just another face in a long line of scions that this player is behind? I'll go so far as to tell you that this certainly isn't his first... The sanc argument, which you so quickly dismissed due to that skewed set of pk ratio stats, is actually quite valid. I really do think that the cf coders top priority (as far as cabal related coding goes) is to give the non mage scion classes a little something, cause evils really don't have that many options in cabal selection that deals strictly with alignment (Goodies:3, Evils:1).

You make some valid points, Cathoir. I didn't intend for the pkratio stat to be a key argument, as it can be invalid in certain situations. However, the "mass slaughter of Scions everywhere" argument is false... I've seen a lot of fights go both ways. I witness a lot of battles from afar, and I'm not as far from the mortal realms as you are assuming.

Zulgh and I have been kicking around a number of ideas regarding Scion, but we're more inclined to move slowly than quickly. There have been recent times, since the adjustment to Nightwalkers, where Scion was absolutely rolling over their enemies. Also, Keniston's point about there often being more Scions than their combined enemies is a valid one. It takes some time to get a good idea of what the equilibrium looks like- it's certainly come a long way towards balance since its inception. We both have a big stack of things that we're working on, but we're paying attention to how things go with Scion.

And to the Scions: If you pick fights with everyone, don't complain when you have so many enemies. Next time, leave that neutral Entropist or Herald or whatever alone, and see if having non-Scion allies can actually work. Deceive, manipulate, bribe, flatter, etc. Make your enemies work for you, instead of uniting them against you. You guys are supposed to have a few tricks up your sleeves, remember?

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with having the odds against a cabal, my only real interest is seeing the non-magii scions get a little something for their troubles.

Let's assume Scion does have a 65% PK ratio, sylvan 60%, Maran 60%, Dawn 40% and Fortress 40% for arguments sake. Look at the number of heros in each cabal. Let's assume again that at the hero ranks, the number in each cabal is equal (Maran may be less by who cares), that makes 200 kills for the goodies and 65 kills for the baddies (For Sylvan/Maran/Dawn do not kill eachother). These figures can't be too far off and I may have even underestimated them.

On to the sanc point; it is rare that you see the fortress/dawn/maran without a person that can sanc another. At the same time, it is even rarer that you will get a Scion that a) can sanc other people and b) does sanc other people.

Bring back rods and by my maths, everything will be even again.

Thank you all and goodnight.

Let's assume again that at the hero ranks, the number in each cabal is equal (Maran may be less by who cares)

This is a false assumption. Scion has more heroes than certain cabals have members. Also, Scions tend to run more violent than, say, Warlock. A Scion with a 60% ratio might be 30/20, whereas a Warlock might be 12/8, since they aren't as violent. The rest of your argument stands on these assumptions, and is thus not valid.

On to the sanc point; it is rare that you see the fortress/dawn/maran without a person that can sanc another. At the same time, it is even rarer that you will get a Scion that a) can sanc other people and b) does sanc other people.

Yup. Sanctuary is largely a good-based power. My point about sanctuary is that -despite- Scion having virtually no sanct-power, the fights aren't nearly as lopsided as is being presented. As a matter of fact, it swings back and forth quite a bit, and we're watching very closely.

Bring back rods and by my maths, everything will be even again.

The days of barrier on every street corner are over. That being said, there's still a lot of a/b/s out there. It just requires more effort to go and get. It's a difficult problem to address, but I like where we're going with it.

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Yup. Sanctuary is largely a
>good-based power. My point
>about sanctuary is that -despite-
>Scion having virtually no sanct-power,
>the fights aren't nearly as
>lopsided as is being presented.
> As a matter of
>fact, it swings back and
>forth quite a bit, and
>we're watching very closely.

It's been my experience recently that Scion has been doing more than holding it's own... sanc happy fortress be damned. I haven't seen the supposed disparity the original poster is talking about.


>The days of barrier on every
>street corner are over.
>That being said, there's still
>a lot of a/b/s out
>there. It just requires
>more effort to go and
>get. It's a difficult
>problem to address, but I
>like where we're going with
>it.

I'm quite glad these aren't common anymore. This is mainly because it really reduced the importance of the healer class, which was something Zulg had pointed out on a different part of this forum.

I am *very* curious to see where you and Zulg decide to take Scion.


>From the pen of:
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

The thing that would piss me off the most as a Scion was the fact that the goodies always had a whole shitload of healing and protection. To top it all off, they had one point to defend. That's 5 (counting Battle) on 1 (Scions). Sure, it was fun being able to kill some of them with panther or whatever, but the fact is that until this is changed, the Dawnies/Maran/Warlocks have a really easy defense point. A lot of what makes it more of a bitch is that Sylvans can camouflage (as Ryfivin said) outside there. Are you trying to make it a lot tougher for evil to win? Because that's what it really looks like, and you can only lose so much in a row without a win before that rage deletion.

Valguarnera and Zulghinlour, you're great, I appreciate the direction the Scions are going. But yes, there's a lot to be done about the people we fight. It sucks that there's so many to defend at one point, and that Scions have no allies. Maran have Battle (who always seem to raid the Scions, and never go around really to raiding Warlock), and the Sylvans (who for some reason, even when many of them are neutral, fight every single Scion).

Deal with that.

I don't remember any of this ever being addressed to you, did you feel a need to stick your nose into something you obviously have no clue about?

I'm sure Zulghinlour's a big enough guy he can answer for himself.

... the post concerns Scion, and as an immortal of that cabal, I thought I'd give my view on what I feel is a myopic (and pointlessly hostile) viewpoint from Ryfivin.

And you're right. Zulgh is free to reply also, and answer himself. If he feels like it, he will. If you have a point you'd like to make on the topic, feel free to chime in.

From the pen of:
valguarnera@carrionfields.com">Valguarnera Trisseptia

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Since you seem to want my answer, I'll give it.

Valguarnera is right.

I've played enough hero thieves to know their strengths and weaknesses. Racking up 100+ kills and less than 20 deaths with Weldinstur (a battle rager svirfneblin thief) taugh me a whole lot about thief tactics. In my opinion this is where Ryfivin fell short. If you fight like a warrior, be prepared to die. If you fight like a thief, there is very little you can't kill. I did not watch Ryfivin very much, but when I did he played like a warrior, and didn't seem to know when to run away.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I hope you're not comparing scion thieves to rager thieves.
Are you?
And frankly, a few times i just wanted to see how many times the marans were willing to multi-kill. Six times they did before i logged off. Anyway.. i won't have any sympathy for anyone in the future about multikilling. They whine about it then do the exact same thing. Heh. Tough luck. Time to roll up a multikilling char.

>I hope you're not comparing scion
>thieves to rager thieves.
>Are you?

No I'm just stating that I have an understanding of how thieves fight (and offering an example of one I played). The basics are the same, when to run, when to stay, etc. regardless of cabal. There is more strategy inherent in the class, than in any given set of cabal powers.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

1/4 damage reduction is nice, even though protection things are quite easy to get, this power would make it possible to have 99% of the time or so.. considering dawn has protection evil, and marans have mantle.. if they're grouped, they get quite the dam reduction + sanc.. I'f I'm wrong about the 1/4 dam reduction or anything, I blame it on the imms not telling us enough!

Landruum@hotmail.com

I'm no expert on Ryfivin; I saw maybe two or three of his fights. However, on one of those occassions I saw him get killed making what I would call a newbie mistake. It's possible you were having an off-day and everything else you ever did was flawless, but I'm guessing not.

I'm not denying you're good at playing a thief, but it might be less like NBA all star team good and more like starter on a high school basketball team good. As long as you're willing to admit you can make mistakes and learn from them, you're going to constantly get better. Once you become so much in love with how good you think you are that you can't admit a mistake you made, rather than some power imbalance, was absolutely responsible for an undesired outcome, you're as skilled as you're ever going to be.

eww...that was a quick 99 hours!