Type PALADIN CODE in the "Search help topics".

Look at rule #9.

You've got a class that's expected, even sworn, to do something the Outlanders actively oppose. I don't see them being buddies.

Alright, first of all, have you played and Outlander yet? I know the code, and I also know what it says in the Outlander cabal itself about paladins and because of that it's not very clear. If you had read it, I think you would understand what I mean.

>Alright, first of all, have you played and Outlander yet? I
>know the code, and I also know what it says in the Outlander
>cabal itself about paladins and because of that it's not very
>clear. If you had read it, I think you would understand what
>I mean.

No I haven't which is why I made an educated "guess".

I mean, the paladin code demands that you respect the Law, the outlanders demand that you don't respect the law and, as such, won't allow paladins into their cabal.

Sorry for phrasing it the way I did, the "look at the help file" answers can come across as really condescending I guess, but I just see this a pretty clear.

yeah, sorry if I seemed angry, apologies galore, it wasn't intentional

9. Respect the laws of the land and those who seek to enforce them.

First off, aspects of the paladin code are open to interpretation as long as you've got solid RP to back up your stance on it.

Secondly, who is to say that "laws of the land" specifically mean tribunal. I could easily see a well rp'ed paladin believing that it is actually the outlanders that enforce the laws of the land since they are enforcing the laws of nature.

A paladin got into sylvan when sylvan was actively warring against tribunal. So I'd say it would probably be difficult but not impossible to get into outlander as a paladin.

That's a point I hadn't thought of. Thanks, that makes alot of intresting points come up.

I had this discussion with Amaranthe, in game, with a paladin, and she just flatly said no. Would not accept the possibility of a paladin like that. And contrary to the note she put into the imm notes section of the character, I never said a paladin should ignore part of the code, and didnt advocate that. But she - politely and very entertainingly, in game - slammed it down without question.

Maybe things have changed, but this was about a month ago.

The Paladin Code pretty clearly implies Tribunal law and those serving the Spire. While it would be possible for a paladin to interpret this differently, they should do so with the expectation that they may well end up blackballed by the paladin's guild, if not unempowered.

Exceptions to any rule are always *possible*, just not probable. For every bizarre exception characters there are probably about 50 who tried and failed miserably.

I had a question on this:

As Phylanthorin, I managed to RP with Sebeok/Saldradien the angle that the law did not refer to the law of cities. I RP'd that the laws of nature were more fundamental and therefore superceded the false laws made by Tribunal or Empire or any other "law" making body.

I did attack people in cities from time to time, just like Maran Paladins often get away with attacking evils in cities without punishment. It depends on the situation, etc. If I was wanted, I didn't turn myself in, and was awarded two virtues in the process of the character.

Now again, this was Sylvan and not Outlander, but do you think an Outlander could not do the same thing, if RP'd well.

I did go through a period of unempowerment when I joined the Grove, and stuck through it. At hero an unempowered paladin can be mighty tough to play :-P.

Phylanthorin, Free of Cities

Even if Maran Paladins attack evil in the cities, they should, in my assessment of the Paladin code anyways, turn themselves in to a good-aligned Tribunal at the first opportunity. Of course, that's me, but I would hope most imms would take the paladin code seriously enough to take a similar stance, though I know that's not always the case.

While I draw breath there will not be a paladin in Outlander. The closest possible thing might be an extrordinarily well-roleplayed paladin with this kind of premise earns the trust of the Outlanders, but even that I find dubious.

I hardly see the point in having a paladin code if we can "interpret" it to the point of interpreting the exact opposite of what it says. If you believe the laws of nature reign supreme and the laws of civilizatoin are "false", why would you enlist in an order of knights with s strict code? Why wouldn't you just be a shaman or a druid?

From Help Paladin:

"These holy warriors have choosen a path of virtue and religious zeal.
This dedication to their cause grants them priest-like spells and
healing powers."

"Each paladin focuses their worship through a particular aspect of the
paladin code. They must continue to periodically seek out their
deity in order to receive further supplications. "

From Help Paladin Code:
"9. Respect the laws of the land and those who seek to enforce them."

My argument is that paladins are not, as you say, knights. They are warriors dedicated to their chosen religion, who also have a code of honor which is broad and they CHOOSE a particular aspect to focus their worship and warriorship through.

It would certainly be possible for a Paladin to RP that he was born in the Imperial lands, and thus when in them he had to "Respect the law and those who enforce it" by not attacking Imperials. There are all kinds of laws, and laws are written by those in power at the time. If the code was supposed to specifically mean Tribunal, then it would say, Tribunal. If it specifically meant to point to the laws of cities, it would point to the laws of cities.

My view of paladins, much like shamans, is that they are priests. That means that there has to be an opening for orders of them which are not even interested in cities. You don't find Shaman guilds in the middle of the woods, but Shaman aren't considered "city folk" by default. Why should Paladins? Having a strict code of honor and behavior also doesn't preclude someone from being an Outlander or in general friend of the Earth. By that account you would not allow the character who, rather than being the anarchist who wants to destroy civilization, is the naturalist who simply seeks to balance the world and teach city dwellers that their ways are evil. I was of the understanding that Outlander threw a wide net in this regard, accepting a variety of natural type characters who all had their own place in securing a new, more natural, world.

Just my 2 cents. Everyone is entitled to their own view of the paladin class. I've played several at high ranks with wildly different RP angles, and always been treated very well by the Immortal staff.

Thanks for discussing the issue, too. I know you guys keep busy.

I understand your argument. The thing is, the Paladin Code is generally thought to be one implemented by the overreaching "Guild of Paladins.", and not like a set of similar-but-different rules that can mean totally diametrically opposed things from paladin to paladin. The code makes is so that unique from priests, paladins encompass a mortal organization with standards and rules that each paladin must obey. If they were purely priests, why limit them to good, even? Couldn't you have holy knights that were neutral, etc? You could, but that would be a different class - not paladins. Paladins are unique in that they have a collective set of standards of integrity, honor, respect, goodliness, that are universal to the class.

Is there some wiggle room there? Certainly - and largely the amount of wiggle room is subjective to the imm dealing with you. But the whole point of the Paladin Code was to unifty paladins under a set of standards that made them unique and "paladinly" instead of RP that is indistuinguishable from a good aligned shaman or warrior. It's not pushed as extensively as I'd ideally like, but that's generally the idea. So yeah, play with a little wiggle room, but in my opinion, if you are going to twist it around *too* much, you have no business playing a paladin, and should instead play a different class with the same role. Paladinhood should be a brotherhood, and while occasionally extradorindary circumstnaces may pit a paladin against a paladin, it should be extremely rare, and I would loathe to see a permissiveness with the class that would allow paladins to be active enemies, as would be the case if you had Outlander paladins and Tribunal paladins. Paladins should for the most part be seeing eye-to-eye on the big issues.

nt

Paladins are bound by the Paladin Code to respect the laws and those who seek to enforce them, which makes them untrustworthy companions in the eyes of all Outlanders, regardless of their ethos.

However, it is expected that sometimes good-aligned Outlanders will have amiable relations with some non-Tribunal paladins. That is, they might choose to have friendly discussions with paladins, lend compassion to a starving paladin in the wilderness, etc. Travelling with a paladin in any capacity is a different matter, however, as the Outlander would then render themelves vulnerable to a potential conflict situation in which the paladin might choose to side against them and with the 'law'.