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Larshalv | Sat 02-Apr-05 10:12 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
96 posts
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#8108, "Shifters"
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As for shifters I love the class, the ability to survive if you really pick your fights. However the pk power is very poor. Or I could even say extreemly poor. Your inability to go underwater unless you have a water foci gives exploration a big bad sign to it.
Your inability to refresh spells properly in form is ####ty. Now Im not thinking about your controls, but rather protective things you might have. And you do need it. Heck a shifter out of form is a duck in the sea with a shark next to it. Quite dead...
The saves in general to the shifter forms are way to low. Some very select few have fair saves. And even with a hero bless spell you still get to maledicted. And your ability to improve them is rather helarious, not everyone has a pet healer/bard at their side at all times. Heck the equipment I wore had better saves than many of my forms. A suggestion is that equipment to shifters have a small say in the saves department/strength/dex. Say one third or something, and reduce the inherent saves of the forms slightly.
I do think the part of shifting going slower with broken bones is fair, but the lag is way to big. As is getting dammage each and every time. It should lessen a bit each time.
If any class would need a skill/power to reach wands in their inventory it should be the shifter class.
The shifters extreem weakness against necros/aps/shamen makes fighting them one on one rather helarious.
Let shifters retain normal gains while in form. When gaining let int/wis/con be their normal form. Its not a big issue, but it would help.
And talking to a shifter, should be possible. Most likely a challange, but that is an extreem hamper in the rp department.
Lastly the change I would see as most important is the focus change. Right now, its almost impossible to make a good role if you intend to have a certain goal with a shifter. Its extreemly dependant upon luck. Which is sad. Well done imms on many changes, but the shifter class in general is very weak against most classes, if you look away from a few select combination of forms that usually make out the off/air combos.
To one and all, well done for keeping a good game going.
LH
larsihalv@gmail.com
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  I agree with one part, and slightly with another.,
Valkenar,
01-Apr-05 03:42 PM, #2
 Short response:,
nepenthe ,
01-Apr-05 03:30 PM, #1
RE: Short response: w short log,
Larshalv,
01-Apr-05 05:23 PM, #3
Not a contradiction, but a little shift in gear,
Mekantos,
01-Apr-05 07:49 PM, #4
 I'll agree with that, to a point.,
nepenthe,
01-Apr-05 08:26 PM, #5
But forms are still far from approaching balanced.,
Vladamir,
02-Apr-05 05:43 AM, #8
An idea and an agreement with Vlad.,
Aiekooso,
02-Apr-05 09:47 AM, #6
Id rather see,
Larshalv,
02-Apr-05 10:11 AM, #7
RE: An idea and an agreement with Vlad.,
Isildur,
02-Apr-05 01:42 PM, #10
Overpowered.,
Valguarnera,
02-Apr-05 02:22 PM, #11
RE: How about mundane fantasy forms?,
Mekantos,
02-Apr-05 04:39 PM, #12
I had an idea about shifter forms.,
Vladamir,
03-Apr-05 07:28 PM, #18
Err...porc not porn. ahem. nt,
Vladamir,
03-Apr-05 09:54 PM, #20
Quest forms,
Lightmage,
02-Apr-05 09:36 PM, #15
RE: Quest forms,
appelsien,
02-Apr-05 11:33 PM, #17
What I'd like to see.,
Vladamir,
03-Apr-05 09:53 PM, #19
Re: Lion,
NNNick,
02-Apr-05 11:04 PM, #16
RE: Not a contradiction, but a little shift in gear,
Isildur,
02-Apr-05 01:40 PM, #9
RE: Short response:,
Isengrim,
02-Apr-05 05:38 PM, #13
I'm not sure it's a tweak up or down we need,
jasmin,
02-Apr-05 07:42 PM, #14
RE: Short response:,
Rade,
04-Apr-05 07:45 AM, #21
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Valkenar | Fri 01-Apr-05 03:42 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1203 posts
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#8110, "I agree with one part, and slightly with another."
In response to Reply #0
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I think it's unfortunate that infravision/water breathing get cancelled if you shift into and out of form. Also, being unable to throw up your detect invis while in form is sad.
The think I really agree with is the part about ranking in form. I think it is not a neccesary balancing factor, and just adds irritation to ranking. Also, it makes no sense IC. Everyone understands it, so they'll put up with it, but it's not particularly logical that if you kill one particular mob out of the last 100, you'll permantly lose a couple hitpoints if you're not in human form, or that your guildmaster won't let you practice as much. There are ways to rationalize it, as there are with anything, but really I don't see the need for this.
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nepenthe | Fri 01-Apr-05 03:30 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
3430 posts
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#8109, "Short response:"
In response to Reply #0
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The shifter class, both statistically and from what I've seen watching the game for the last few months, is not anywhere near as weak as you seem to think it is.
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Larshalv | Fri 01-Apr-05 05:23 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
96 posts
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#8114, "RE: Short response: w short log"
In response to Reply #1
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All you really have to do, is as a warrior, boneshatter/impale/artery and so on. That makes it hard/painfull to utilize your other forms. In many instances killing you when your protections fall. And with the short span they have they often do...
As a necro/ap/shaman
Heck sleep scourge forget = dead shifter 90% of the time, if you are not well rested beforehand.. I mean manawise. Your just going to die quite healthy but out of mana. No revert as a result of forget makes it close to impossible to survive.. I think I have survived twice of the 10 or so times Ive been slept and maledicted in form at hero. And that is in croc form/mongoose/porc/orangutan. Dying to the mana loss. Not able to revert.
Ap/shaman blind/energy drain... The saves on the forms are so shabby every second or more of the energy drains hits me. Even with forms that are resistant. And me outranking them.
Short log. Of a good day against an ap... that does not try to maledict me. Its a picture of the dammage I do against them.
This dammage is through a/s no other protection as you can see from the dispel. Both before and after. And also how much one actually hits someone like this. I have abs++ frenzy/bless from hero healer.
Now the hits I do continue to be wounds, if Im extreemly lucky I get a maul every 10 rounds, but I often get misses. And now he was affected by alot more than just when you dont see me. And this is a good day.
When I have played several other chars against necros/aps/shamen its a one way street. Heck there is a recipy for killing shifters.
864Hp 849M 686Mv civilized 21600Tnl (-30.91%) You bury your teeth in Nabburak's body.
Your bite <31mhits[0m Nabburak.[br/><36mNabburak yells 'Help! a striped hyena bit me!'[0m[br/>Nabburak calls a cabal power onto some thin air near Martainn.
The Imperial Assassin is writhing in agony.
864Hp 849M 686Mv civilized 21600Tnl (-30.91%)
Kalumgar leaves down.
Kalumgar has fled!
The Imperial Assassin is writhing in agony.
864Hp 849M 686Mv civilized 21600Tnl (-30.91%) hit Nabburak
Your bite <31mMASSACRES[0m the Imperial Assassin )
Also, what about allowing shifters to shift their race, gaining certain benefits during those transitions, while losing the ability to do further partial shifts during this period? I know it may sound crazy, but it would be kinda nifty to be able to turn into a fire giant while walking around in a hot area, or a duergar when navigating the underdark. Eh, I don't know, I just see shapeshifters as being much more capable in their own skin, rather than just being fierce when fully shifted into some animal.
I just had a megadose of caffeine and I'm not sure if this is being affected by that, or not.
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Vladamir | Sun 03-Apr-05 09:54 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
1179 posts
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#8139, "Err...porc not porn. ahem. nt"
In response to Reply #18
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Lightmage | Sat 02-Apr-05 09:36 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
319 posts
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#8129, "Quest forms"
In response to Reply #11
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QUest forms seem so far between. Its the goal of every shifter to get a quest form and they are very very rare. Why not give some perks to a class that has constantly been downgraded. Ive noticed a trend to give out third tier forms to well played shifters. A sand lizard or snow badger is nice...but come on, it would be cool to fight shadow demons, or polar bears, or whatver...
Take Akscereh for example, a fellow who played hours every day, role played well, was consistant. make him a shadow panther or a demon pteradon. Quest forms dont even have to be ALL powerful. Just something diferent. Hell my last quest form was the massive raven. Identical to golden eagle, with a small perk. And man was that a happy moment in my gameplay. It cant take but a moment to code dozens of small changes to existing forms. Dont just give them out to leader characters, but to anyone in this dwindling tiny playerbase that is making an effort and trying to make the game fun. Maybe make it age and experience extensive, an older experienced shifter can attempt to learn a new spell. It would totally bring back more excitement to a pretty dull class.
Most of the fun I get playing shifters is ranking and getting my forms. Its always a surprise when you learn one, and strive for that 'perfect combo'. With more incentives it will just get better.
Boneshatter/impale/dagger moves/some diseases, ect, all massively limiting forms. Lots of other maladictions in there as well. Its not even like shifters are that tough. I guess if you fully prep you can tool someone, but they arent really on par with a legacy warrior under most circumstances.
I cant even count how many shifters ive played, and I will continue to play em....
just a suggestion though not criticizin. Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.
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appelsien | Sat 02-Apr-05 11:31 PM |
Member since 08th Jun 2004
108 posts
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#8131, "RE: Quest forms"
In response to Reply #15
Edited on Sat 02-Apr-05 11:33 PM
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' Maybe make it age and experience extensive, an older experienced shifter can attempt to learn a new spell. It would totally bring back more excitement to a pretty dull class.'
A possible idea would be to have shapeshifters spontaniously develop low-powered 'quest forms' once they've reached a certain amount of total playing hours. These 'bonus forms' could potentially replace the current (and rather rare) 'quest forms' and be available to any shapeshifter character that lasts for a long while (and who thus virtually automatically contributes to the roleplaying atmosphere of the game in this fashion), at the cost of making these 'bonus forms' significantly less powerful than the 'quest forms' as they exist today.
I would agree with Lightmage, in that the fun in awaiting these new forms could make the class a whole lot more interesting in itself already. It would be something different, and I would gladly sacrifice the power of the current 'quest forms' for this.
Perhaps something for the staff to consider.
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NNNick | Sat 02-Apr-05 11:04 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
94 posts
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#8130, "Re: Lion"
In response to Reply #5
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I might be off base here... but it seems lion has a special thing which makes it hard to block lion's attacks.
So chars who rely on defense are screwed here.
Ram has higher number of attacks and higher damage per hit but relatively easy to defend from.
So mages would go down from ram extremely fast while defensive specs would have a lot less problems with ram.
Panther/Jaguar seem to be 'jack of all trades' type forms.
Some damage/average dodging/several utility skills.
As offense - not impressive at all.
I would classify these as Utility focus.
I hope it clears Nepenthe's somewhat cryptic message a bit.
===
And as a bonus - here is my idea:
Split defensive focus in three sub categories.
1) High dodge (lemur/mongoose)
2) High defense (armadillo/croc)
3) Special abilities (porc/rattlesnake/anaconda).
This way people will mostly get what they want.
And Dreaa's situation could be avoided (Dreaa had lemur AND mongoose forms).
My $0.02,
-=NNNick=-
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Isengrim | Sat 02-Apr-05 05:38 PM |
Member since 17th Aug 2003
47 posts
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#8127, "RE: Short response:"
In response to Reply #1
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Gotta agre with you there, shifters are still damn good in a lot of different scenarios. I am perfectly happy with most of the forms and their fighting abilities, they are all pretty much well balanced. My issue is this movement lag thats slapped on all offensive and defensive forms without any rhyme or reason. I can understand some of it on lower level forms and certain defensive forms like armadillo. But the part that always frustarted me was that even offensive forms have movement lag attached to them for the sake of game balance. I think now that we have tinkered forms enough to make them up to par with other classes toe to toe, maybe you guys ought to rethink this broad movement lag on shifter forms? Take something like ram for example, all anyone has to do is just flee and no way a ram can catch up.. realistic? If you say so.
Yours truly
Grim
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jasmin | Sat 02-Apr-05 07:42 PM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
237 posts
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#8128, "I'm not sure it's a tweak up or down we need"
In response to Reply #1
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though it wouldn't hurt. I honestly can't say the last time that I "feared" a shapeshifter. I think it would be really interesting to just add some neat utility features to the current forms. One of the biggest things I could think of, was to have each focus of forms have instincts it can use. Or hell even just a few more attack, or defensive move motions would be great. They don't have to be powerful, just anything besides bite bite bite etc.
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Rade | Mon 04-Apr-05 07:45 AM |
Member since 04th Mar 2003
157 posts
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#8148, "RE: Short response:"
In response to Reply #1
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I'm curious how many people delete after finding out what their final major form is.
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