Will role xp count as imm xp for access to quests, edges and explore areas that are locked behind some imm xp ammount? The way it worked before, at least, you could eventually get Devious Versatility, for example, just through a few role updates. If it's only available now through imm xp, then it is basically unavailable for anyone not following an active imm.

Please consider just removing all the imm xp requirements. Or at least let role xp give access to the same stuff.

The rationale behind these changes was to begin working toward paring back the impact of edges. As I believe someone else already pointed out, it was never really the design of edges for everyone to have so many. Likewise, edge points have become less of an indicator of real achievement when characters can amass so many of them in short a short amount of time doing the kinds of things that end up being referred to as grinding.

Likewise, we noticed that a lot of people were racking up a significant amount of edge points through role writing, sometimes clearly as an attempt to game the system and other times by coincidence. We want to reward people for writing a quality role and updating it when appropriate, and we still do that. Ultimately, roles are not meant to be a infinite edge point dispenser though, and we've addressed that.

Something to consider. Prior to these changes, OXP/EXP were, from a practical standpoint anyway, the best and certainly most common means by which characters earned edge points. Some quick math would suggest that will remain true going forward.

Example. Let's take Bemused's example of his character Padfeinwen. Padfeinwen was in the top 95th percentile in terms of total edge points acquired. He had the single most expensive edge in the game on top of a number of other edges that are not particularly cheap. And as we learned, he had a modest role and no non-role Imm XP whatsoever. Nor did he participate in cabal wars or even moderately in PK. See the problem here? Now, under the new rules how screwed is Padfeinwen? He's not. In fact, he would still almost make the 90th percentile based on active characters (not apples to apples, I know) and rankings aside, would still have more edge points than the average hero. Now, he's definitely at a disadvantage against to a character who does all that other stuff too, but that's pretty much by design and always has been.

I think these changes go a long way to addressing our concerns about the disparity in the payout of two particular methods of earning edge points, especially relative to their merit in our opinion.

As always, it's difficult to take things away from people. Some of you may feel like edges are a core part of class customization and have the expectation that you should be able to pick some arbitrary number edges because that's how it's always worked in the past or because it's how many you've decided you "need". I'm afraid we just don't share that view.

Lastly, I tend to use pronouns like "we" when talking about these things. Obviously these changes are not unanimously supported by every Immortal. I pitched ideas that did not get implemented as well as ideas that did, as did others and that is typical. There are quite a few of us, after all, and we do our best to balance our likes and dislikes and styles of play with the role of being objective administrators and game designers. If we required a quorum of 100% to make changes to CF we would still be stock ROM. That said, a number of people weighed in on these changes and what you see is our consensus.

I hope that helps. Now I'm going to go back to focusing on Santa Umi and my very busy real life December, so I apologize right now for not engaging every single person who wants to wring my neck over this one. There are warm hugs at the Whiysdan booth for anyone who is interested.

I will give the changes a try. Though I must admit, I love my edges.

Thanks,

Polmier (aka Gilut, Sivane, Deevak, Maligor, Marcalius, Bevrolmx, Ezrail)

Anyone complaining should read your response first.
Granted, players don't see the actual data Imms have access to, and people have different views on what has merit in the game and how much, but player perception of the change is probably skewed from reality, and I think the example given is a good one. I think that char would have been fine without calmed mind, deep pockets, battle tested, quick healer and wise recovery. He could use a few slow potions to net a better effect then those edges will ever provide in total, though always on slight passive benefits are of course nice, they are rarely essential.

If maxing obs/explore/commerce and having a cursory role will net you six or seven nice edges, I don't understand the complaining as much. Even if before it might have netted you ten. You're still pretty well off doing things that require almost no PK, cabal affiliation or imm involvement, outside of them acknowledging your role. And since a lot of people that want edges want them because of the fact they are engaged in PK and cabal stuff and the edges will help them with that, they would see more edges as a result of thir PK/cabal activity. Plus be more likely to be noticed for random imm xp because of that engagement with others.

And to avoid the allegations of favoritism or pandering to a character's deity, consider making it improper for imm exp to be given to a follower.

trolololono.

Nt

to monitor such behavior. Although you categorically dismiss my suggestion, I do not feel that someone who follows an active imm should by default get more imm exp than a character who rps as often but is not trying to garner the attention of a patron imm.

Maybe things are different now, but with one char i played I got xp every time I visited the shrine. That is a sick advantage over say a herald who might be doing nonstop with mortals.

I know this has been mentioned previously, but'll throw out a reminder. It's far more valuable to receive exp from multiple Imms than it is to be showered on by one single Immortal. It definitely still helps, but the people that really benefit most will be the ones who consistantly impress various Immortals, which by nature serves to deter the effect of any favoritism.

This has sort of been built in from the beginning:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=73&topic_id=95&mesg_id=95&page=

So the important thing to note from that is the "you get more edge pts the first time an imm gives you xp" so it's truly a diminishing returns kind of thing.

1. Many of the posts in the thread below is a classic example of the "shoot first" mentality from players. Rather than give the changes a chance to live test, they jump all over them*.

That doesn't necessarily validate, or invalidate any opinions. It does, however, lead to wholesale speculation as to the intended nature of the changes.

2. Prior to this there were some characters who (as Destuvius pointed out below) were able to obtain rather excessive amounts of Role XP just from being prolific writers. I see that as an issue, especially when we already have monthly Role Contests and so on.

From my perspective, having read and rated a lot of your roles as players (over 120 chapter entries to date) I could tell you that there is an obvious disparity in role writing ability. A lot of those rewards are double-counted through role rating and the role contest wins (in my opinion).

This aspect of the change is a positive move provided the staff set a more active approach for giving experience for good RP.

3. I would point out that (barring a few older classes) the game does not have to be a min/max grind-fest if you choose not to play it that way. I know that many people will not alter that particular play-style, and it is their prerogative as a player to not do so, it does seems to be deeply ingrained in the psyche of many members of our player base.

*I am personally a big advocate of transparency for the players. I like that the staff document their mechanical changes and put it out there for the world to know. I think it is important to maintain communication between the players and the people who do the code work. So there needs to be some give on both sides. If you guys want coders to actually work (as volunteers) on the game, enjoy working, and be transparent about changes, then please lower personal expectations.

Having expectations of the staff as being completely infallible and/or only ever making changes that benefit you personally as an individual is a very problematic mindset to get into.

PS: And yes, everyone on the staff has volunteered. They don't get to turn around and act like they are owed respect because of it. I maintain that respect is earned. But guys, really, you are expecting far too much in too short a time from a group who are not paid to do this work. If this game is to have a future, we need to be realistic about what we want and what we can achieve, given resources, as a community.

*I am personally a big advocate of transparency for the players. I like that the staff document their mechanical changes and put it out there for the world to know. I think it is important to maintain communication between the players and the people who do the code work. So there needs to be some give on both sides. If you guys want coders to actually work (as volunteers) on the game, enjoy working, and be transparent about changes, then please lower personal expectations.

Awesome - I love it. Does this mean that now that the playerbase has basically communicated "Please don't "fix" this thing that wasn't broken" that you all will actually listen and revert the changes to obs/explore XP, while ADDING the enhanced IMM xp on top?

Communication, only works when both parties listen and adjust accordingly. Thus far, when players rail against IMM decisions the general consensus to come out of staff land sure sounds a lot like "tough ####, play or don't"

I think in general, most enhancements are appreciated. And, I also believe that the player base does give praise for changes that they like.

Another thing to remember is that what keeps vets interested and playing is the existence of things they like (apparently obs/explore xp is one of these things). I feel if this change were simply to have split role xp/imm xp while leaving the rest of it 'alone' the feedback would be near 100% positive.


-Sarien

"Awesome - I love it."

I prefer it too. The amount of energy (indirectly) expended on dealing with posts which are accusatory was just not worth it.

"Does this mean that now that the playerbase has basically communicated 'Please don't "fix" this thing that wasn't broken' that you all will actually listen and revert the changes to obs/explore XP, while ADDING the enhanced IMM xp on top?"

Communication, only works when both parties listen and adjust accordingly.

I agree on your points about communication and compromise. Would you say that we have been less communicative in the recent months?

"Thus far, when players rail against IMM decisions the general consensus to come out of staff land sure sounds a lot like 'tough ####, play or don't'"

If that is how you read this, that, once again is your prerogative. I personally think it is an ill-informed opinion if you should choose to adhere to it. Player numbers speak for themselves and they are as evident to us as they are to players.

The players do not see the work behind this, and I don't blame you guys, you are not involved entirely in the process. You don't have access to data, code specifics, stuff like logs of role exp., or anything else along those lines. However, the amount of work which goes into making code changes, or quests, or writing new areas, or lore, is significant. Often measured in tens, hundreds, or in some cases thousands (Hi Zulg) of hours.

If every bit of code was retroactively undone when people were upset the day after the announcement was made, nothing at all would be achieved on that front.

A lot of this may be able to be handled prior to the firestorm by having an open discussion with players.

Pretty much a summary of reactions, players don't like the grind but they also realize that you have to have the grind in the current system to gain a mechanical advantage that other players have (because of grind, knowing someone, build, etc.)

The grind makes things less fun, making the grind worth less can appear to make it even less fun as now you have to grind just to get a handful of edge points compared to before.

Why not take away GRIND and add ACCOMPLISHMENT for Player versus Environment.

What do I mean by that? Well Mendos, since you asked so politely, let me tell you! As detailed elsewhere, why don't you guys give a certain standard amount of edge points for simply moving through the majority of areas (whether quest driven or not... see academy Simon quest). That way everyone will get to get those few points to start out and they don't have to script or walk through 15 different areas looking at 100 different mobs each and 200 area descriptions with 400 specific individual trigger words in EACH AREA. You see where that gets tedious?

So now you have new characters being driven to a few of the areas by the basic academy quests, and if they go to a few other areas bam, they get their standard edge points. Why not just give that baseline? What does that ruin for anyone? People that still want to learn the areas and explore certainly will, people that don't want to grind out look thingy;e;open thingy2;look thingy2;e;look thingy3;d;l thingy7,8,9,11,23,555,1034.... well you get the idea... anyway, people that don't want to grind that crap out, don't have to now.

That standard doesn't have to be a lot. Now give a bit more for people taking down rarely killed mobs. You moved through an ancient dragon lair?! Cool, kill the ancient dragon, BAM edge points. Obviously you didn't do it alone, so now all you people automatically have edge points, and maybe some cool gear to fight over or not get any because who cares, you got some edge points. Guess what, you also unconsciously push people to interact together to kill these big mobs to get edge points (see; blademaster, ancient dragons, tiamat, hell stuffs, area explore stuffs, etc...).

Now two ways to get edge points, that are not grind and can cause the game to be more fun for everyone. Also, PK edge points, Neat idea!!! (yeah I know, already there, you guys got that one right and we do appreciate it).

What isn't right is the way long lived characters don't get a few edge points as they age (whether hourly or middle old ancient etc...) Why not set up 10 points at 100 hours 20 at 200 3 at 300 etc... (although I don't know what your standard edge point scale looks like, maybe it could be 1/5 at 100 hours and sliding upwards). This rewards players that stick it out and keep their characters around. And don't say, oh well people will just idle their characters for hundreds of hours for edge points... if they idle, they die simple as that. And if someone wants to idle for 500 hours to get a couple edge points and only be able to play for the next 55 hours, so be it, most of us could care less.

So now you have 3 automated ways that characters can gain edge points WITHOUT GRINDING! See, less grind = more fun.



p.s. I am sure this will be ignored, but hey, I had to try.

Personally, I've never bothered with the exp/obs grind - though it is annoying knowing that others who do it then have an edge (pardon the pun) over my chars - I just try to grab the exp/obs if/when I go the area for other reasons.

In general edges are a neat part of the game, because they allow for character customization regardless of class/race. I'd say everyone agrees about that, right?

Now, as long as there is a way to grind exp/obs for edges, some people will do it, and of course they´ll get annoyed and complain when the grind gets even worse. So personally I think it'd be best if there was no way to mindlessly grind edges with each character, but you'd receive edge points in other ways, roughly in order of importance:

1) (linearly) based on level
2) (linearly) based on character hours (I think Daev especially has said that people will then idle for 100s of hours to get edges, but like said above, if some poor schmuck actually did that, who cares?)
3) taking down difficult/unique mobs
4) commerce XP
5) imm XP
6) role XP
7) PK wins, AND PK losses too (equally)

I think that's about it? Obs/exp XP would still count for gaining access to the secondary skills like legendary awareness etc., and of course as a way to gain XP without killing mobs.

"p.s. I am sure this will be ignored, but hey, I had to try."

It's not so much ignoring as real constraints on resources with respect to labor. I think we could probably sit down and put together long lists of changes which would make CF fantastic in a ideal world, but ideal isn't going to happen, at least not any time soon, because ideal takes 10,000 hours of code work. The staff have to address what they can realistically manage and/or alter given limited hours to code, run religions, rate roles, check descriptions, snoop players, write areas, edit (proofread, vet content etc.) market, advertise, debug, help new players, write help files, post forums etc. etc.

PS: With respect to character age length, Santa Umi? Worth a shot at least? Nothing to lose.

In case you weren't aware* part of this is in place already with respect to old age. From "help edge point specifics":

"Below is an outline that describes the various ways characters earn
edgepoints.

...

4. Level / Age

Characters receive edgepoints upon hitting the following milestones:
- Reaching hero (level 51).
- Reaching old age.
- Reaching level 49 with an xp penalty of 100 or less.
- Reaching level 49 with an xp penalty of 300 or less."

So this is partly in place already. So might be worth reading if you weren't aware of this, and intended to make a request.

*Figured you are aware of this, since you were assassinating me when I was still trying to find my way to Darsylon. If not aware of said help file, it is pretty informative.

It's like playing D&D and introducing a new houserule every other session. I agree that players typically can't see the whole picture, but it doesn't mean they'll appreciate their characters being used as guinea pigs.

I found that knowing (and working on, or making decisions in) the game's underlying mechanics does wonders about attitude. If I decide to nerf a build in my MUD and it affects my own mortal character, do you think I'm going to care much? But players will care about theirs; your emotional investment goes into the whole world whereas they only have their character.

There's no unique guideline about making changes without alienating the playerbase. But, ffs, when you intend to nerf one thing, and buff another to compensate, implement the buff before you do the nerf.

It isn't really about being a guinea pig. You shouldn't feel like one. Nobody here should. I can't speak for the other Immortals, but I personally want more players.

The general assumption I will make, is that if there is one thing which everyone unequivocally can agree on it is that they want a larger player base. That goes for the Imms, the players, even some of the ex-players and imms have vested interests in keeping this game up and running. Case in point: The first night of 100. I was sat at the entrance to the Academy and at least 2-3 characters (which I can remember) were logging in just to see CF with a 100 player who list. Or sat there idle to bump the numbers.

I think it is great, personally, that a player can come back after 10 years and still enjoy the nostalgia of this game. I also run into players which I think are new, get talking to them, and find out that they are player after 8 years away or whatever.

We're not intentionally TRYING to be bad guys. That is my long-winded point, and I think you get that.

Having said that, whenever something is out of whack, or gets toned down for being crazy I cannot remember a single time that it wasn't badly accepted. There is a deep-rooted Pavlovian reflex (and it isn't just in CF it is across all of society) which is to get riled up when there is less of something. Even if it makes sense. Even if it might lead to better things. People will always argue, or hate the hand that alters.

Can you ever remember a thread where something was toned down, and a subset of people didn't get upset? Ever? (Aside from a nerf that affected one person, or a very small group of people? Like the tone-down of Black Jaguar?)

(From the staff perspective, knowing that a change is going to be wildly unpopular, and still posting transparently. I mean that is pretty rare in the real world. If the CF staff were a government in the real world we would be far closer to Norway , than Zimbabwe . I personally feel that people are taking that for granted.)

That's why I used that houserule situation as a comparison.

I will humbly reiterate the point that you chose to ignore:

Whenever you want to tone something down, but you plan to introduce better things to compensate, do the better things first. Always.

I just do not want to make promises which someone else would be forced to keep.

Everything on this thread has been read by the people who do that work.

"That doesn't necessarily validate, or invalidate any opinions. It does, however, lead to wholesale speculation as to the intended nature of the changes."

PSA: Do not read if thin skin.

Why the #### are we having to speculate as to the intended nature of the change? Just tell us what the intent is. Seriously. I asked, but have gotten no response.

PSA: Can read if thin skin.

Splitting Role XP and Imm XP feels like a good change. Especially since it *seems* like this is going with a corresponding increase in Imm XP for actual RP in play, as opposed to in writing (roles).

Tac

I largely meant that everyone is speculating at this stage based on any kind of post-change experience.

I understand why people are frustrated. I'm not trying to be facetious, cover anyone's ass, or get under anyone's skin here.

I have my own opinions, but I will personally be reserving judgment for a future date, when I can better comment on said changes.

Edit: reread my initial post. I should have made my point on speculation clearer.

>1. Many of the posts in the thread below is a classic example
>of the "shoot first" mentality from players. Rather than give
>the changes a chance to live test, they jump all over them*.

Yes, let's see how halving my main source of edge points (obs/exp) will pan out. Let's see how funnelling people down ImmXP will work out when I got exactly 0 in 360 hours of a character. Maybe I will really like these changes. You serious?

If ImmXP requirements stay for quests/areas, please just admit that these things are only for Immortals and friends to access. Poor Mr Offpeak Noconnections is playing a completely different game.

There is no way every immortal agrees with these changes. The fact that you guys are forced to toe the line and show a united front is really annoying. There would be many immortals who are too afraid to voice their real feelings about changes like these for fear of being hit with the Valg stick.

You had no mandate to make this change. There is a serious disconnect between the playerbase and the staff (who have, for the most part, inherited a great game and have a responsibility to the playerbase not to #### it up).

"If ImmXP requirements stay for quests/areas, please just admit that these things are only for Immortals and friends to access. Poor Mr Offpeak Noconnections is playing a completely different game."

C'mon man. I'm not trying to lecture anyone, or do the "good PR guy" thing here.

I do not live in a US timezone. I appreciate your gripes with peak vs. offpeak. I have been dealing with this myself for over a decade.

As for "Immortal and friends to access", see my response to Polmier.

"There is no way every immortal agrees with these changes."

You're right that there might be a deviation in what each immortal agrees, or disagrees with. That's how democracy works. Majority rules. It can be just as frustrating if somebody wants to achieve something personally and it deviates with a vision which the majority does not like. But that is a check and balance against one individual "going full-retard" and skewering the MUD.

"The fact that you guys are forced to toe the line and show a united front is really annoying. There would be many immortals who are too afraid to voice their real feelings about changes like these for fear of being hit with the Valg stick."

I'm not "forced to toe the line and show a united front". If I disagree with something I'd rather not undermine the efforts that someone else has made out of mutual respect. It takes hours of vision and labor to create something in this game. It can be quite demoralizing from a personal (or even a group perspective) to see those hours go to waste.

I'm ultimately a volunteer. I can choose to opt out of the process whenever I wish. I can also choose to raise the issue in public, or in private, so as not to fan flames. I am never going to be undermining another volunteer's hard work and efforts, it is a matter of common courtesy and human decency.

"You had no mandate to make this change."

You're right. I didn't directly have a voice in this change because I have not yet finished my area which I have been dragging my heels on. If I had worked harder and faster (see: personally accountable here), I would have had that voice. Given that some of the individuals which do code work have spent tens of thousands of hours coding, I can respect the necessity to finish that hurdle, even if it is a lot of work.

"There is a serious disconnect between the playerbase and the staff (who have, for the most part, inherited a great game and have a responsibility to the playerbase not to #### it up)."

Have you seen any kind of progress on this front, such as people reaching out to the community, or trying to engage more actively in conversation on these boards? I certainly have. Things might not be exactly how you personally want them all of the time, and I mean, I don't know what to say to that. Really. Very rarely in life does everything work out exactly as we want, or intend.

All we can do is keep trying to work on addressing communication between the staff and the players coherently and constructively and try to improve the game.

I retract my statements until I get to test them out.

The opinions below could be valid at this stage since it hasn't been live for long, so we have no evidence, or data to interpret, or argue about. But nobody (imms included) can fully anticipate all of the outcomes of a change.

It's tricky to make even minor changes which aren't going to disadvantage someone somewhere. The reasons for this change were not to shift this game increasingly toward a "favored crowd" type mentality (the staff would honestly be crazy to do that at this point). They were just to redistribute the weighting of certain types of experience.

For some of the folks above, nothing really nefarious going on behind the scenes, and nobody is genuinely trying to ruin anyone else's day. I know it makes for a better story, and much more drama in general, but it just isn't true.

If people worry this change could enable that kind of behavior at a later stage, I think that may have validity if we see a rapidly growing player base, or staff and the guys responsible for policing behavior are stretched thin. At this stage though, it is not a consideration.

is it even possible to get 'spin the wheel' AND 'roll the bones' now without needing IMM xp?

If you are being serious with this, and the post wasn't sarcastic, maybe you could phrase this as a specific question?

Otherwise perhaps Umi would be willing to look at the cost vs. time input and consider adjusting?

It probably won't change any time soon, but I mean genuinely, your best bet is there.

I wasn't being sarcastic, just curious whether not getting a good final form means deleting or not. I'll post over there.

I reiterate, don't expect this as me giving you a "this is a great idea, go for it". Umi and the rest of the code team have a better eye for balance, and more info.

But if it is something you really care about, formulate what you want carefully and reasonably, and post there. You never know.

This change does not affect my style of play. I don't care about edges or farming. I think players that put so much stock in them are idiots. That said, this change seems pretty counter productive

You can't remove grinding by making it harder to grind or less valuable to grind. The people that play here are OCD and hyper-competitive despite evidence that an edge won't make them any good. You have to completely take it away or make it automatic or leave it "as is" and finally understand that someone is always going to be bitching. Find new ways to improve the game, not try to fix systems that someone thinks is broken. Hint: Someone will always think your system is broken.

Imm exp is something you can grind, so don't think I mean just obs/exp. Yes, Destuvius, following a god gets you more imm exp. It's pretty obvious to anyone that has ever followed an imm and not followed an imm. This goes triple for uncabaled characters.

You've made it less valuable to play at any time besides peak times or specifically within immortal schedules. Sorry Murphy, you Russians are hosed.

You've made role writing less valuable. Fewer roles means it's much easier to step outside your role and claim it was within the parameters of your role.

There are few people to PK for edge points (maybe even more so with the fallout of this change), you've crippled what little the players were getting from exp/obs, and so you have left the only option: being a cookie cutter pet.

Regards,
Gnome

PS: You might want to consider taking feedback for changes before you make them in our ever shrinking community. Be a man, woman, or human and accept feedback for your ideas before you force them down peoples' throats.

PSS: Acidity has been heavily toned down and edited out by anonymous source. Thanks be to He. Hopefully it made the post helpful. Personally, I'd have rather been much, much, much more insulting. Who doesn't enjoy a good insult?

roll up a multi-killer that kills newbies whenever they unghost so I can get enough edge points to compete. I think the former though.

One of the single best ways of getting edge points is retrievals, just fyi. PK edge points are minimal.

nt

1 retrieval opportunity, and I was sub lvl 25 @ the time...


So, I don't think this is all that good a way to earn edge points, at least in the experience of my current char.

Char before that maybe 1-2 retrievals over 100 hrs as well

Declined playerbase = less raiding = very few opportunities to retrieve.

nt

Any team I am on is the 'winning' team . Hope you laughed, I know I did.

Seriously though, it may be my playtimes? Evenings Eastern? But, there is very very little raid/counter raid activity that happens while I play. The only character recently I had that could've racked up retrievals was a villager...vs an item grabby orc chief.

you would have linked to Varimathras saying "I'm always on the winning side."

I have no idea who Varimathras is...or what he said..link pls?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azAELMY0_vU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azAELMY0_vU#t=59

With my recent empire assassin I had 25 retrievals within 150-ish hours, mostly because I would log on at my usual time and find next to nobody online and the codex was at the fortress or refuge -- and it was so almost every day for weeks.

Another character I had recently had 1 retrieval in the same time span because his item would invariably be never taken.

Changing what levels you can get observation/explore, changing gold and now essentially nerfing edges all seem to just make the game harder or more of a grind. I guess I can understand the need to take out chests as gold can be a game changer but were edge points really swinging the game in anyone's favor?

Gold changes had some positive effects. I can buy a nice piece of gear or a wand from a PC. Before gold couldn't buy anything from a PC because the PC had more than they needed. This means that even a newb can get nice gear or the time of a player to help with something.

Also, if edge points didn't swing things, why is anyone bothered? In most cases it is because they do swing things.

Personally I think the only way to improve on what we had was to give nothing for role writing and to give stuff for rp, but where the rp checker gets views of random players rather than ones they choose to watch.

I do not think pk should matter more for edges (proportionately) as those pk'ing a lot shouldn't be given lots more advantage for it. They already dominate. I expect to break 200 pks and I don't think it should be made progressively easier just because I've already pk'd a lot.

I'd like to see some edges for effort, frankly, and commitment to cabal ideals, class ideals etc.

It was not long ago players bitched about the monotony of having to farm obs/explore xp to get the edges they want to compete with people, because if everyone else is farming that then the other players felt they had to as well just to keep up and stay competitive.

So the Imms finally say they will reduce the impact of farming obs/exp xp on edges, and yet, players still bitch, when really this is exactly what they were asking for not long ago. Now those who farm, (and lets be honest, at this point obs exploration xp is nothing but farming for 90% of people who still play CF since they have seen all these areas countless times) get less, so maybe people won't be as obsessed with doing it for the sake of edges. But no, instead of realizing all players will have less edges in general and maybe have to be more selective in which they choose, they rally against that which they clamored for probably less than a year ago.

This is an application across the board. It's not, as I see it, an attempt to annoy players. It's an attempt to eliminate the grind of maxing experience for the sake of those things that so many CFers compulsively seek (edges) in the name of maximizing their character.

Do you still need 10 edges to compete if all your competition now only has half as many as well?

And Pk edge points are unchanged, and they are emphasizing immortal xp. Those are really the two focal points of playing CF, role playing and PK. Shouldn't they be the most heavily rewarded aspects then?

Yes, this system focusing less on things players can do solo (obs/exp/role writing) has obvious potential for imm favoritism. Maybe it's driven to get more people interacting though, instead of going through the motions in the most bare sense between the ever increasingly rare PK attempts. The old system was just as prone to abuse though, Imms could always abuse their place for their favorites. That's not a change at all.

The Role xp cap, countless people bitch about role xp, so the Imms nerf it some, and then, yes, more player bitching because that was their only avenue of Imm xp. Roles shouldn't be Imm xp, because they require zero RP to create. The best laid role is crap if you completely ignore it through your IC actions. (Areas/quests should never require Imm xp though, on that I agree with everyone else)

This system can be for the better of CF as a whole, but only if the Imms make it so for the players.

If the Imms are planning on being far more immersed in CF as interactive gods and not as neutral moderators and administrators, and being far better about rewarding instances of RP in small amounts but far more often (who doesn't love getting an imm xp randomly after a session, it's encouraging even if it is 50 xp or something), I'm all in favor of this. If it's business as usual on their side, then, yes, this is ultimately a bad change because it takes away one avenue with out putting another in place.

I'm hoping they embrace the role they are creating for themselves, that they don't only look for their followers/their cabal/PKers for instances to immerse and interact.

I say, as players, we have to give them the chance. They can always change it later, but honestly, has business as usual been working for CF lately? I'd argue the player counts speak for themselves.

The group I see most affected by this is shifters who power ranked and want to spin the wheel/roll the bones and anyone who wants to enter silent tower.

PK, commerce, and edges from ranking remain the same, while edges from Imm exp (traditionally overwhelmingly from role updates) and explore/observe have been reduced.

Commerce has those brakes built in that stop you from accumulating it rapidly, everyone gets close to the same amount from ranking, leaving only PK to really differentiate.


Long live PK as the primary avenue to getting cool stuff!

I think you are assuming a little much.

1. Not all players bitched against the grind of exp/ob/com.

2. This also does nothing about eliminating the grind, only makes the grind that exists more tedious as it is worth less. If anything I would argue this makes the grind even worse - more time for less benefit.

3. Exploration is always been apart of CF as well. For many reasons, gear, preps, quests, etc. Some of us play for that. I love RP and enjoy PK but to be honest, most of my time when I login I end up playing solo for many reasons. Now that time exploring is worth less then before in respect to edges - why would I not be frustrated with this change?

I don't care about the role change so much, I think this is fine at the end of the day and agree that this seems what at least a portion of the player base has been asking for. I can see the frustration though in respect to areas, quests, etc that have IMM exp requirements. This is just making it harder to play this game - is that good?

I'm happy the IMMs what to be more involved (that is an assumption though I didn't see any posts indicating this was true). Just that's easier to say than do. And I would guess, regardless of the intent, this will result in winners and losers for IMM rewards just like it always has because it is at the end very subjective and requires players and IMM times overlap.

At the end of the day these changes reduce the single fairest way to earn edges that existed. Now players who excel in PK or getting noticed by IMMs have an even greater edge over players that tend to fly under the radar or are not PK orientated. To me this is just a shame.

Edit to add:

If there are plans to create new ways to earn edge points, and/or be more liberal with IMM exp awards, that should stated and perhaps be rolled out at the same time or before hand. Not doing so leaves the player base with just having something that has been apart of this game for a long time now become more difficult and of course, why would any player be happy about this?

1) Enough did bitch about it I'd argue. And I can maximize obs/xp with ease, and I still find it annoyingly tedious to do it, even if it takes me half the time it takes other players (honestly, can people not get to 15k of each in a few hours at hero if they focus on it). I imagine the evidence on their end by just observing players probably shows most players making obs/expl xp runs while engaging in zero/little RP. The fact that it is being actively farmed by a majority of players is a reason in itself to disincentivize the behavior. Area explores were once supposedly challenging areas, meant for groups and the like to discover and maybe overcome the challenges within. Now they may as well be scripted places to visit when someone either wants the obs/exp xp or a specific item from the place.

2) The grind should be worth so little in terms of perks that people don't feel the need to grind it out anymore solely for those perks. The edge points for those things should be an after thought that comes through playing the game, not the requisite to playing the game people make it out to be. While eliminating it completely was probably taking it to far, I think this moves the vision of CF they have closer to what they want it to be. Keep in mind, I am assuming that the Imms want to move CF in this direction and have plans in place beyond this, and it's not something I am actually in favor of. I liked the old system, mainly because it was so easy to abuse. But that abuse had people engaging my char to go there with them, so on some level, it still created the interactive opportunity. If PK is the primary edge point system, yay for more evil no rp multi killing douches spawning. Quas loves him some PK. I find PK so boring I can't even come up with reasons to engage in it with a char. I'd rather just sit around and BS with people. It's just a matter of player taste there though, but PK already motivates people to disregard RP.

3) If the point of exploration is gear/preps/quests why do you care if you earn a mechanical reward in terms of edge points for engaging in it (or that the value was lessened)? Maybe you are rereading the NPC descriptions in Organia for the 1000th time. Most of us are doing l 1.;2 2.;l 3.;... because we've read it before.
If you're doing those things for gear/preps/quests, aren't the gear preps/quests you acquire/complete the reward for doing it?
CF is a Multiplayer RPG, it's not a solitary RPG. Why should I be able to accrue multiple edges by playing the single player version of CF when the whole point of the game is the player to player interactions supposedly.

As to the rest, it was assumption on my part that I was hoping they would engage in as a result of their change. You're right, it wasn't stated that they would do this, and I agree, saying that they would probably would have smoothed the reception of this over far better.

I think Imm xp requirements for anything should be gone.
I think the Imms should involve themselves more in the game as gods and as interactive NPCs.
It's what I would hope to see the Imms do to compensate for the change. Yes, obs/exp were easy easy ways to farm edges points. But maybe the Imms wanted to drive CF away from being a game where players have to farm things, or even where they feel they have to. There is enough of that with ranking/skill practice.

First, making obs/exp less profitable in absolute terms doesn't do much (anything) to dissuade the PKer type who is doing it for PK reasons. The benefit relative to other players is still the same. I either have all the edge points from obs/exp or I don't. In a PvP terms only relative power matters, so changing the absolute gain on something (and doubling the time investment) doesn't remove the incentive any more than skill practice changes did. It is still worthwhile to have perfected defenses + weapons at low level for PK purposes, just like it is still worthwhile to have the most edge points from obs/exp at as low a level as possible. It just takes longer now.

Second, if the point of exploration includes gear/preps/quests etc. then it also includes getting better at exploration. Which means putting that gear/prep/edge you got from your last exploration into the next one, or into taking down something that was previously unbeatable. So in Explorative terms (instead of PvP) the reward has been nerfed, period. If you want a warrior character that explores, you probably want all the healing edges. This makes that more difficult and does nothing fun for you except suck more time as you have to heal longer, explore longer, observe longer, etc.

Third, you mention "I think this moves the vision of CF they have closer to what they want it to be." Which begs the question, what does the ImmStaff want CF to be? Because, frankly, I can't seem to figure it out. It would be awesome if they did a detailed post about that topic so that collectively we could judge changes against the stated goal. If the goal isn't clear it is tough to judge if you are having the desired effect (moving closer to the goal).

Lastly,

"I think Imm xp requirements for anything should be gone."

Whole-heartedly Agree.

"I think the Imms should involve themselves more in the game as gods and as interactive NPCs."

Definitely.

"It's what I would hope to see the Imms do to compensate for the change. Yes, obs/exp were easy easy ways to farm edges points. But maybe the Imms wanted to drive CF away from being a game where players have to farm things, or even where they feel they have to. There is enough of that with ranking/skill practice."

If that is the goal, great. I've got lots of ideas on how to push toward that, but I have not seen direct evidence that is the goal. For all I know, this is the opposite of the goal. More grind = moar better could be the goal of CF Staff and I'm sure I could point at half a dozen changes and conclude that is indeed the purpose. I could also go the other way, which is why I'd *really* like to see some clear statement on what the "game design" goal is.

They wanted same edges for less effort. Not less edges for same effort.

Also, don't forget that Imm exp drops off a bit as well.

I don't recall where the post is exactly, but it's along the lines that if 10 Imms all give you 2000 exp, you get way more edge points out of it than if 1 Imm gives you 20,000 exp.

So while an Imm favoring someone (whether due to truly liking a character, or by nefarious design) does help a character, it's nowhere near as significant as having a character that is genuinely well liked by multiple Imms observing.

Ofcourse, I'd also be fine if edges were only given out as rewards too, or as a "1 per every 10 levels" thing, but meh.

But,

I don't see that happening. What I TRULY see from this change is the swing from being able to provide edges for yourself (explore/obs) to only being able to get them at the whim of some admin's kindness (imm xp)

You do have some control over edges still, and that's via PK. I'd much prefer that to having to look at the docks again and again and again (btw, not a knock on the Docks - great area, just repetitive given the amount of explore/obs you get).

So I completely sympathize with people who are hurt by this change because they like the non-pk means to get edges, it just doesn't resonate as much with me because I didn't like that aspect myself.

And I do so with every character I can.

That said, there are certain race/class combo's where hitting the PK marks in a given bracket are 'unlikely' at best.

That said, it was alays nice being able to do some obs/explore to make up that gap - no longer an option. Hell, I struggled with the 5k explore prior to lvl 30 for edge points, and I have yet to hit the 10k obs prior to 30 mark ever I just can't be bothered to look at every little thing as I am flying through areas trying to find the 1 guy in my pk range nowadays

I would think with the low player base, you would be seeking more exploration/observation.

Making it harder to do exp/obs at low level was the first step.

This is the second.

The players want more edges not less. Edges tend to make the charcter.

The players want imm interaction, but they do not want it tied to edges.

I must admit, I to am confused.

Just so I do not get confused with the masses that complain a lot. I love the ABS wand change.

Please provide more explanation on the rationale. I do appreciate a good discussion and figure that a number of imms are involved in this, so maybe there is a good reason. Do some characters end up overpowered due to number of edges?

I have played since December 1994, so I do not take CF changes without knowledge.

So what you are saying is that powerful stuff like devious versatility should be available without any rp requirement? You just write some text and later you get the skill?

To me, the fact that this stops that is the best thing about it.

My thoughts:
+ Good that it stops role xp farming.
- Not happy to see obs and explore exp reduced in usefulness. Are the caps being increased?

+ New ways of generating what's been lost.
+ Maybe coincidence, but I've recently been rewarded for stuff I'm doing rather than stuff I've written, which is a very nice change. If that's the new plan, I'm all for it. What I would say though is please make sure that people spend a bit of time watching the uncaballed or poor at pk characters too. Otherwise this will make the playing field less level (albeit to my personal benefit).

If I was going to make a change to obs/exp XP my personal bent would have been toward making it 10X the experience (same edge points) to make it a legitimately viable ranking option at all levels. This... I don't understand at all. Can you please explain the reasoning?

"How Imm XP (which itself is untouched, other than no longer being tied to roles) interacts with edges has not changed at all. You still want to be rewarded for RP by the Immortals and get this"

They are just funnelling people down the IMMteraction whoring route which reeks of favouritism and egotism.

Less edge points for me because I refuse to kiss ass. Case in point: Padfeinwen 360+ hours - 1k ImmXP total and all for the role. 0 ImmXP for randomness for 360 hours. I am almost surprised they didn't double edge point gains for Imm XP just as a kick to the nuts.

Are the caps double so that total edge point available are the same as before? What about the bonus amounts prior to level 30?

This change feels like a big increase in the amount of grind to earn edge points through exploration, observation and commerce exp. Was this necessary? What problem is it trying to address?

The caps haven't changed, nor as commerce XP in any way.

We felt that the weight of observation and exploration toward edge points was too high.

That is really unfortunate.

Are there other compensating increases in edge points or reduction in edge costs?

With the information provided I dislike the change. I am an explorer type player in general, I don't play this game for PK and now the most direct avenue earning edge points for my style of play is gimped. Thanks.

I'll review these things on a case by case basis, with the exception of quests which I'll probably kick over to their respective authors.

Those requirements are there for a good (in our opinion) reason though, so you likely won't see them disappear altogether.

As a player, I see no benefit whatsoever to these requirements, so I am curious what the hidden benefits are perceived to be. IMM xp requirements for access to areas/quests etc have long upheld the appearance of IMM favoritism, I would've hoped that changes made to edges/explore/obs/imm xp/etc would have done away with mechanics that allow for favoritism. Let's be real here, IMM xp is based on nothing more than an 'opinion' of a staff member. What any 2 given people consider 'good rp' is going to differ. Some of the most well RP'd characters I have encountered have been ones who had little to no immortal xp.

Also - it seems like you guys just upped the "time-sink" that edge gathering already is. Could you not be persuaded to reduce the time sink, as the "time sink"...is in fact...one of the most complained about "issues" on the various boards I read.

I can only hope that you all read this as constructive criticism, and I hope anyone else that feels the same way I do chimes up as well.

You know you want the most edges you can get and as a competitive player I always try to maximize this. Basically this change means I can expect half the edges I usually get, I can't do lowbie IMM EXP required quests that cut off at 25, I can't get into Silent Tower ever unless I know the back door, I can't do fun RP stuff with shifter or familiar emotes, and I've got to do way more running around and looking at things IF I can figure out what level works for what area.

I just don't get the point of making the game more difficult or less fun at this point and a huge percent of changes since Zulg left have been in that direction. Some changes have been awesome too though so thanks for those, but bleh!

If you want people to get less edges it seems like you could just cap the amount of edges people get instead of making it absolutely tedious to get them.

Edited to ask: Are IMMs going to be giving out a lot more IMM EXP and being more hands on with RP things to offer more opportunities at getting edge points via that direction?

>
>If you want people to get less edges it seems like you could
>just cap the amount of edges people get instead of making it
>absolutely tedious to get them.
>

Makes more sense to me then reducing the most player neutral way to earn edges.

Yes!

Helpfile reads:
"Characters earn edge points which allow them to choose additional edges through excelling in any of several areas of play, including RP, PK, exploration, commerce, quest participation, cabal activities, and so on. Quality characters of very different types will earn the right to pick a good number of edges; a character who excells in many areas of play (for example, a skilled playerkiller also recognized for their exemplary roleplay) will have the most opportunities to choose edges"

If you could play any way you wanted, and get the same edges as everyone else, the current system wouldn't seem so much like a grind. But as it is, the people who like exploring and the people who like pking can't get as many edges as the people that do both.

So it goes from "play any way you want and just have fun" to "you have to play ways you don't enjoy to unlock* all your edges".

CF Imms, if you're reading this: Let us play anyway we want and unlock edges just like everyone else. If you want to give bonus powers to people, implement RPXP (http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=6&topic_id=50396). That way people who contribute to the enjoyment of the players get rewarded, thus perpetuating a game that people enjoy playing rather than hiding more carrots in room descriptions.

*I know it doesn't say anywhere you unlock edges, but that is how almost all RPGs have skills/powers/abilities laid out. Get experience, unlock your skills as you level. That type of thing. CF's edge system turns that holy grail of RPGs on its head, and that is a reason I think it doesn't quite work.


Hutto

I recently made about 2000 gold by farming gear and selling it to various merchants over and over. Those hours of works barely netted me 4500 commerce xp. If the edge points from that have been halved you can kiss those points good bye.

I have about 40k commerce exp and I've probably sold less than you. You are just limited in how fast you can accrue it, precisely to stop the kind of farming you are trying to do.

>You know you want the most edges you can get and as a
>competitive player I always try to maximize this. Basically
>this change means I can expect half the edges I usually get, I
>can't do lowbie IMM EXP required quests that cut off at 25, I
>can't get into Silent Tower ever unless I know the back door,
>I can't do fun RP stuff with shifter or familiar emotes, and
>I've got to do way more running around and looking at things
>IF I can figure out what level works for what area.

You get half the edges you usually get. So does everyone else. Unless of course they insist on farming obs/explore xp, which I've seen many posts megaphone that players don't like to do.

>I just don't get the point of making the game more difficult
>or less fun at this point and a huge percent of changes since
>Zulg left have been in that direction. Some changes have been
>awesome too though so thanks for those, but bleh!

If your idea of fun is farming obs/explore to get every single edge out there rather than exploring (for the sake of discovery), RPing, PKing or otherwise interacting with other players, then yes, you will find the game less fun.

Thank you for the compliments regarding some of the awesome changes. I know our coders work hard to put stuff in.

>
>If you want people to get less edges it seems like you could
>just cap the amount of edges people get instead of making it
>absolutely tedious to get them.

In this case, if you really, really, REALLY want to get those edge points, you still can. With the alternative you propose, there is no way to get those extra edges because we capped them.

>Edited to ask: Are IMMs going to be giving out a lot more IMM
>EXP and being more hands on with RP things to offer more
>opportunities at getting edge points via that direction?

Yeah, we are trying to give out more imm xp for cool descriptions, prays, interaction with other characters, etc. I'm making it a personal goal to triple my xpadds from last month, so I'm going to be on the lookout for cool RP.

gr

I like that you are making a personal effort to increase the amount of immxp you will give out as that will help compensate for some. I hope the staff as a whole is of the same mind. Thank you for that.

Otherwise, if you don't mind my candor, just making these changes so everyone gets less edges is something I really don't care for.

>I like that you are making a personal effort to increase the
>amount of immxp you will give out as that will help compensate
>for some. I hope the staff as a whole is of the same mind.
>Thank you for that.

Actually, I'm not the only one. Another imm and I were just commenting on how we're a lot more likely to give out immxp now than in the past. Giving out imm xp had a "rich getting richer" aspect layered onto all the other ways to earn edge points.

>Otherwise, if you don't mind my candor, just making these
>changes so everyone gets less edges is something I really
>don't care for.

I can totally understand that. Thanks for your constructive post.

1) requires more and constant effort from the immstaff
2) creates a bigger power gap between those who follow a god and those who don't
3) basically turns some edge-heavy classes (AP, bard, thief) into empowerment-lite?

I no longer feel as if I'm hated by imms these days, but I would still argue for less subjectivity. The mechanic wasn't ideal but switching to manual control is even worse.

I'll weigh in on a few of these things, and I doubt it will matter because it seems like a lot of our players have already decided that this is terrible and they are going to be perma screwed.

1) This is an invalid argument for a lot of reasons. The biggest one is that in the past we had a portion of our imm staff wwho made a special point of NOT handing out imm xp for various things to particular players due to them having already received lots of "imm xp" from role writing. The fact that role xp and imm xp are different now will lead to a lot of said imms being more liberal in handing out imm xp.

2) Again, invalid argument. The only advantage you gain in following a god as far as edge points go is getting tattooed. Just following an imm isn't going to mean you get more imm xp or better pks or explore better which are all of the other avenues available to you for edge gain.

3) Invalid argument, see #2.

I think that our players put far too much weight in the impact edges make when it comes right down to it. Do they offer a lot of cool perks? Yeah, they totally do. Can you pve or pk the exact same without edges as you do with them? Not quite, but the difference is small enough where it won't have a night and day difference. Its kind of like the whole theory of NEEDING 100% in skills to be competitive. There are probably a handful of times over the life of a character where it matters, but at the end of the day player skill/knowledge is going to be the biggest deciding factor in 99.9% of situations.

And the issue is control over character development. Some of us (I fit in to this crowd) really enjoy the "character building" aspect of CF. Edges rewarded from obs/explore were a way for the player to control whether or not they collected edge points - you guys just took 1/2 that ability away...while at the same time making the edge points that the staff hands out all the more important to work for.

IMM xp/edges/rewards/handouts are completely subjective, and I personally don't like that I just lost the ability to farm some garunteed edges (if I want to put in the time) and I now have to rely on the chance that a staff member is watching me, and happens to have the opinion that what I am doing is cool.

From all of the ranting and raving, I think two things should be clear

1. People want more edges (not less, this change is a turd), and want ways to access them without immortal intervention

2. Subjective rewards are often the target of much bitching - I really don't understand the big swing towards more of this. I think its great that the staff wants to interact more with the playerbase - awesome. Please don't make it the BEST or pretty much ONLY way to do certain things in the game. IMM xp requirements on quests/area access absolutely REEKS of favoritism/elitism.

Imm following characters are arguably going to be more observed by imms.

Some edges do make a big difference. Seven winds of hamsah on an Arial sword spec for example. With it I was better off fighting big groups than solo foes.

You shouldn't use that term, imo.

>1) This is an invalid argument for a lot of reasons. The
>biggest one is that in the past we had a portion of our imm
>staff wwho made a special point of NOT handing out imm xp for
>various things to particular players due to them having
>already received lots of "imm xp" from role writing. The fact
>that role xp and imm xp are different now will lead to a lot
>of said imms being more liberal in handing out imm xp.

Are those same immortals also going to be providing 24 hour administrative coverage for our Russian brothers? I bet they aren't. Sorry Murph, you are indeed screwed and your argument is valid.

>2) Again, invalid argument. The only advantage you gain in
>following a god as far as edge points go is getting tattooed.
>Just following an imm isn't going to mean you get more imm xp
>or better pks or explore better which are all of the other
>avenues available to you for edge gain.

I take it you have never played a character that didn't follow a god. You have new gods now and maybe you all will make an effort to change this, but lets not pretend like cabaled immortal follower and uncabaled immortal non-follower get anywhere near the same level of attention. Up until this change, that has been fine. We had people to PK and stuff to do to gain edges. Shrinking playerbase and bad changes have changed that.

>3) Invalid argument, see #2.

Invalid invalidity, see #2.

>I think that our players put far too much weight in the impact
>edges make when it comes right down to it. Do they offer a
>lot of cool perks? Yeah, they totally do. Can you pve or pk
>the exact same without edges as you do with them? Not quite,
>but the difference is small enough where it won't have a night
>and day difference. Its kind of like the whole theory of
>NEEDING 100% in skills to be competitive. There are probably
>a handful of times over the life of a character where it
>matters, but at the end of the day player skill/knowledge is
>going to be the biggest deciding factor in 99.9% of
>situations.

I think they put far too much weight on the impact of edges too. Unfortunately, you don't get to go in their brains and tweak the broken parts. Instead, you have to remember that they are human just like you. They probably poop, fart, and eat garbage like everyone else. Try to tailor the game to your players.

nt

I'll weigh in on a few of these things, and I doubt it will matter because it seems like a lot of our players have already decided that this is terrible and they are going to be perma screwed.

1) This is an invalid argument for a lot of reasons. The biggest one is that in the past we had a portion of our imm staff wwho made a special point of NOT handing out imm xp for various things to particular players due to them having already received lots of "imm xp" from role writing. The fact that role xp and imm xp are different now will lead to a lot of said imms being more liberal in handing out imm xp.

2) Again, invalid argument. The only advantage you gain in following a god as far as edge points go is getting tattooed. Just following an imm isn't going to mean you get more imm xp or better pks or explore better which are all of the other avenues available to you for edge gain.

3) Invalid argument, see #2.

I think that our players put far too much weight in the impact edges make when it comes right down to it. Do they offer a lot of cool perks? Yeah, they totally do. Can you pve or pk the exact same without edges as you do with them? Not quite, but the difference is small enough where it won't have a night and day difference. Its kind of like the whole theory of NEEDING 100% in skills to be competitive. There are probably a handful of times over the life of a character where it matters, but at the end of the day player skill/knowledge is going to be the biggest deciding factor in 99.9% of situations.

I can name a dozen edges that give so much advantage it's no longer fun to play without them if you decide to try the same class again later.

EDIT:
And honestly, if edges aren't OP, why nerf the ability to get them? Why can't we have nice things?

I'm not hating or anything -- I honestly wish to continue playing and realize I no longer have the drive.

I really don't get why the staff feels the need for absolute control over things like who has edges, and who doesn't. Let me build my character the way I want. This game may belong to the staff, but my character is just that..."my character"

Edited to say:

I would be much better off with this change, if while removing the ability for people to gather edges via obs/explore they added more methods for edge point gain that did require immortal input, or intervention.

Ideas:

Edge points for deaths while fighting in an enemy cabal
Edge points for deaths while defending your own cabal
Edge points for killing certain 'tougher' NPC's
Edge points for quest xp/completion (why not, I wish I did more quests...give me a reason)
Some sort of weekly/semi weekly event (Arena/NPC Hunt/Faction War) that would garnish edge points


As it stands, all this change does is reduce the way many of us gather a few edges, and well...that sucks

Some player write roles specifically to give them an excuse to approach as many imms as possible, with the actual motive being to farm imm exp.

For example, to repair my ancestral sword I need a token from at least 10 gods.

I'm not posting this to toot my own horn, as I'm sure there are lots of imms who are way more active than I am in that department. I just wanted to give some feedback.


>I'm making it a personal goal to triple my xpadds from last
>month, so I'm going to be on the lookout for cool RP.
>

My current status is having fun with new edges for different classes. If this change is in, well, I am done with CF at least for now. There might be some who like the change, But I'm not one of them.
Edges are very important for me (Not because I am a bad ass min/maxer, but because I like to see how they change a build) and I gather them through obs/exp (As I don't write roles and I cannot PK either). CF won't loose anything if I leave, but there might be others too.

=(