Ok, here's my brainfart on the religion matter. What if religions in CF went from being exclusively PCs to being handled behind the scenes by a group of Imms? I'm thinking of something like 5 or so per religion, and could be the same 5 or so for several religions. Could make it possible for the Imms to keep notes on important things with each character so they stay up to date and in touch. Could possibly let one or two Imms handle one player as long as time permits. This would allow as much continuity as possible between one player and the Imms, and if done well, the playerbase wouldn't know even if other Imms came into the picture. Could use one NPC for each religion which the group of Imms can control. Jot down some common characteristics of the NPC (i.e. "Red mist comes out of his nostrils when you talk about storm giants"), and the players will probably never know.

Problems: Some of the finer details of roleplaying could be lost, both in interaction and the religion itself. Would possibly make more players that could be watched per Imm, versus only having your set few that you know real well.

Benefits: Could expand the pantheon to cover all the bases. No more having people following religions after the religion has faded. Should end the many frustrations involving religions, such as posting here to see if the Imm is active, finding out their times, praying/praying/praying when they may be around, repeating for tattoos, virtues, etc.

Maybe with some molding in the hands our Imm staff, this idea may pan out.

Thoughts?

As an alternate suggestion, I think an accurate list of who's active and who's not would go along way toward addressing player frustration. One of the things most people giving empowerment advice say is to "pick an active imm". The question is how to know who's "active".

Exactly!

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

An immortal is "active" if he/she empowers potential followers with a turnaround time that the staff considers not "unreasonable" for a player to endure.

Note- I haven't tried to get empowered lately, so this isn't a personal whine.

When we know that an immortal is inactive, we do take them off the list of active imms. We close the religion, take them off the wizlist, etc. The problems is that there is often a grey period where the immortal seems to be active, logs on reasonably often, but just isn't pulling their fair share of the load. It impacts other immortals in regards to our non-empowerment duties, too.

Drawing a line in that sand is extremely difficult. Players not getting empowered have a difficult time knowing if they just didn't catch the immortal online, didn't have close enough to a "right" angle on the empowerment to warrant a talking to, or just didn't even realize the immortal was trying to talk to them. Going by how many players a given immortal has empowered lately is no good judge of how active they are, either - some spheres are more popular than others and some are easier to develop an empowerment role around.

And if the immortal isn't logging on and isn't answering their emails... it's a bit of a challenge to get a dialog going about what's really going on. And considering that we're all volunteers, it is a delicate balance between luring someone back into playing that immortal we all love and/or hate and driving someone off by reacting too strongly to a week or two's vacation combined with some less active playing.

Please don't take this as a criticism of the staff, but...

Maybe the best thing would be for immortals with religions to be more straightforward about when they're going to be inactive, whether due to vacation, real-life commitments, loss of interest, etc. I get the feeling that, currently, if a staff member were to say, "I don't feel like empowering anyone for a while, or even interacting with morts in general," that they might quickly cease to be a staff member.

I'd be okay with imms jumping from "active" to "inactive" on a weekly basis if necessary, assuming it accurately represented those imms' true availability. Though, I can see how this might cause problems from a role-play point of view. Maybe make the inactive/active thing completely OOC, i.e. the imm's player giving notice rather than the imm character being destroyed, sent thorugh a dimensional rift, etc.

I get the feeling that, currently, if a staff member were to say, "I don't feel like empowering anyone for a while, or even interacting with morts in general," that they might quickly cease to be a staff member.

This isn't true. We've had plenty of people go temporarily dormant, and they were not demoted, deleted, or whatever else you are imagining.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

That was in reference to:

The problems is that there is often a grey period where the immortal seems to be active, logs on reasonably often, but just isn't pulling their fair share of the load.

And if the immortal isn't logging on and isn't answering their emails... it's a bit of a challenge to get a dialog going about what's really going on. And considering that we're all volunteers, it is a delicate balance between luring someone back into playing that immortal we all love and/or hate and driving someone off by reacting too strongly to a week or two's vacation combined with some less active playing.

What you quoted was me trying to come up with an explanation for why someone would do something like this other than it just being accidental. Wasn't trying to imply that you guys get the axe for taking time off.

Really, I have zero problem with an immortal going inactive for weeks at a time, with no notice, and for any reason, as long as his or her status is clear to any morts seeking empowerment.

I guess we were both talking about different issues. What I was taking about is how sometimes immortals fade away, leaving followers and potential followers in limbo. Some of the time, they are up front about this and make arrangements to reduce their role as far as religion goes. Sometimes they are not. We always encourage folks to be up front about time commitments and don't demote or punish them in any way. Life happens, after all.

What you seem to be more concerned about is a person being less available for a week or two. These fall into two categories - situations where the person knows in advance that they'll be unavailable and situations where they don't know ahead of time. I find that, whether you believe it or not, most of our immortals make an effort to let the playerbase know they will be unavailable, if the immortal themselves knows in advance. That's usually through a post on the forums, which is perhaps not as ideal as some sort of in-game system. So really, we're already following your suggestion to the best of our abilities.

>I find that, whether you believe it or not,
>most of our immortals make an effort to let the playerbase
>know they will be unavailable, if the immortal themselves
>knows in advance. That's usually through a post on the
>forums, which is perhaps not as ideal as some sort of in-game
>system. So really, we're already following your suggestion to
>the best of our abilities.

I believe you. I'm not some nut who thinks you're out to get the players via willful refusal to inform anyone of potential inactivity. Just thought it might be an oversight sort of thing.

If I may suggest, after too many beers, it would be convenient if there were a single place to check on the status of various immortals. But it's not a huge deal. Just an idea since not every imm with a religion has a forum on this site. If I'm considering following Joe Blow Immortal and Joe Blow Immortal doesn't have a forum...I have to guess if he's active or not. Or scour "Ask an Immortal" and hope something got posted there.

1) It could take something that is "someone's" responsibility, and turn it into something that is "maybe someone else's" responsibility. If I'm semi-busy, and I see a pray that might be mine, I might get slothy and hope my immortal buddy will cover for me. Currently, if I see a pray for me, I know it's my job to cover it in some fashion. (*)

2) It could dilute religions. Currently, each immortal is an expert on their own religion because they designed it, wrote the shrine/helps/etc., and have spoken with followers. They've seen multiple angles on the one faith, and know the nooks and crannies well. Covering 5 religions makes that much harder.

3) Continuity and consistency. If I'm Immortal #3 on your team, and last time you dealt with Immortal #2, things might go screwy unless we've been on the ball with logs/summaries, etc. Short notes back and forth can fill part of this in, but my experience running multi-imm quests is that it can be trickier than it sounds.

(*): Disclaimer: I'm of the Sneakius Watchius species of Immortal, but I'm probably 'looking' more often than my peeps (**) think.

(**): Yes, I just used the word "peeps" in a sentence. And a footnote within a footnote. Again.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It is nice to know someone not only read it, but posted a thoughtful reply. Thanks Valg. I feel all warm and fuzzy now.


>1) It could take something that is "someone's"
>responsibility, and turn it into something that is "maybe
>someone else's" responsibility. If I'm semi-busy, and I see a
>pray that might be mine, I might get slothy and hope my
>immortal buddy will cover for me. Currently, if I see a pray
>for me, I know it's my job to cover it in some fashion. (*)

This is true.

>
>2) It could dilute religions. Currently, each immortal is an
>expert on their own religion because they designed it, wrote
>the shrine/helps/etc., and have spoken with followers.
>They've seen multiple angles on the one faith, and know the
>nooks and crannies well. Covering 5 religions makes that much
>harder.
>
>3) Continuity and consistency. If I'm Immortal #3 on your
>team, and last time you dealt with Immortal #2, things might
>go screwy unless we've been on the ball with logs/summaries,
>etc. Short notes back and forth can fill part of this in, but
>my experience running multi-imm quests is that it can be
>trickier than it sounds.


The dilemma is, we use religions to encourage roleplaying, right? Is there some solution we can reach that:

1) Prevents people from throwing away 20-40 hours on characters that aren't any fun because they never get empowered (happened about a year ago, then again with my previous empowerment character several years before that, and several times when I was an empowering Imm myself several years ago),

2) Prevents Imms that aren't there from being prayed to by non-empowerment characters (has happened to me twice in the past year),

3) Encourages roleplaying without forcing everyone into playing the "Pick An Active Imm" game?

I hope that made sense. I re-wrote it about 3 times trying to keep it from getting overly ramblish.


-----Hutto is here, wishing he were asleep.

P.S.
On a somewhat related note, another half-baked idea I just had. If you want to see better roleplaying, somehow make it clearly competitive, like pk ratios. There is no good, clear, universal indication of a well roleplayed character. Leader of a cabal? Doesn't apply to uncabaled. Last name? Yeah, right. Title? Some cabal Imms are more title friendly than others. Tattoo? Pick the active Imm. Role contest? Only means you can write a good story. Quest skill? Possibly. Any one of these can mean you're a good roleplayer, but then again it doesn't really mean you're any better than the uncaballed, untitled, no last name, no tattooed guy standing beside you. It could simply mean you were in the right place at the right time, like involved in a quest. About the closest I can think of is becoming a HeroImm, or maybe getting your name put on the pillar in the Rager village.

How do you consistently guage something as subjective as roleplay? I'm sure the playerbase would love it if Drokolatryn Drokytolytrn Dragon-Nep every now and then picked one person from the Hero range as his... I don't know... "Most Amusing" or something and gave him a title as such, or a cookie. I wouldn't dare put that kind of burden on someone... unless he wanted to do it. *nudge Nepenthe* Or Yanoreth, or Valg, or some new unknown Imm, or a group or voting consensus among the Imms, or something like that where everyone has a chance. That would rock.

How do you consistently guage something as subjective as roleplay? I'm sure the playerbase would love it if Mr. Scaly every now and then picked one person from the Hero range as his... I don't know... "Most Amusing" or something and gave him a title as such, or a cookie. I wouldn't dare put that kind of burden on someone... unless he wanted to do it. *nudge Nepenthe* Or Yanoreth, or Valg, or some new unknown Imm, or a group or voting consensus among the Imms, or something like that where everyone has a chance. That would rock.

Hey!

I think my count for the week is 1 point of CON, a minor (but useful) quest skill, and a bunch of those random batches of XP that I like throwing around. It's not exactly my craziest reward-whore week ever (*), but I've mostly been adhered to the bug board and doing some miscellaneous bits of code. And cackling maniacally watching someone try to figure out a quest I handed out a little while ago.

Anyway, people know this, and (hopefully) are doing it already. I think the voting idea would add bureaucracy where it isn't needed. There's already a chain of command for rewards of various shapes and sizes, and the people who have the skills necessary to give them have the experience and judgement to propose them.

(*) Unlike Pyramid Scheme or Eight Billion Frickin Legacy Quests.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Hey!
>
>I think my count for the week is 1 point of CON, a minor (but
>useful) quest skill, and a bunch of those random batches of XP
>that I like throwing around. It's not exactly my craziest
>reward-whore week ever (*), but I've mostly been adhered to
>the bug board and doing some miscellaneous bits of code. And
>cackling maniacally watching someone try to figure out a quest
>I handed out a little while ago.
>
>Anyway, people know this, and (hopefully) are doing it
>already. I think the voting idea would add bureaucracy where
>it isn't needed. There's already a chain of command for
>rewards of various shapes and sizes, and the people who have
>the skills necessary to give them have the experience and
>judgement to propose them.
>
>* Unlike Pyramid Scheme or Eight Billion Frickin
>Legacy Quests.
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com


You officially rock. Rewards of various shapes and sizes are terrific, don't get me wrong, they're great - I love them!, but not what I was getting at. It would be cool to have some sort of rare Imm sanctioned "Top Character" award that the playerbase valued, and sought after. Bring it out of the hush-hush and into the limelight. Maybe people will talk a little less about dam rolls and unholy weapons.

Ok, my last half-baked idea for the day. Take the Rager pillar idea to the next step. Set some basic guidelines, then when along comes an exceptional character, give that character an eternal home here on the web site. Maybe have their description (or possibly have Ihraeth draw a picture! whoo!), a brief flattering life history, logs of historic moments, etc. Let these characters be the Imm ideal character: they roleplayed when nobody was around, they didn't quit when things got bad, they played their character till the end, unique angle, could pk, didn't group with the same players his site always did previous , whatever. Whatever you Imms want to see more of, these characters will set the stage and lead the way. Maybe only a few a year, or possibly none some years if nobody shines above the rest as worthy.

The key is, don't let it become a playerbase popularity contest, yet for it to work it must have value in the eyes of the players. That's kinda why I was picking on Nep. I think a large portion of the playbase has a lot of respect for him and his comments. For example, something Daurwyn said on those other forums, "Personally, I take satisfaction in that two of my characters have elicited positive comments from Nepenthe" Not trying to single Nep out, but it would be great if the award carried the same respect in the eyes of the players as a golden star of Nepenthe's approval.

Thanks again for the replies Valg, even if you hate this idea.

Hutto is here, heading toward the bed.