Thu May 27 05:05:49 2004


At 10 o'clock AM, Day of Freedom, 4th of the Month of the Old Forces
on the Theran calendar Grottimgesh perished, never to return.

Classes are split between tough and lethal.

Tough measures how hard it is to kill a class. An invoker, A paladin, A healer, fall under tough, because they have protections and don't die easily.

Lethal measures how easy it is to take out a class. Thieves, Necromancers, Antipaladins, warriors to some extent fall into this category.

Paladins are not overpowered if they are too tough, they are overpwoered if they are too tough and too lethal. Time will show that not many paladin players are going to have very many kills in their pk score, because it isn't easy.

A warrior with the right class, race, weapon, cabal, prep, tactical combo could potentially be very lethal. You showed that with your success. Paladins don't have the kind of flexibiltiy and options that you always had, and I think you know this.

You're trying to cut down an elephant, while lions in the bushes wait. Nevertheless, a tough character. I'm sure I'll meet you again.

You don't think invokers are lethal? Has the skill pool of CF been watered down that much?


Cheers.
Jhyrb.

Invokers are a balance of toughness and lethalness, and my choice of class if I felt like spending 150 hours spamming spells.

I haven't had any serious character in last two years, so when I got
some time I decided to roll one. I wanted to try out the "new" cabal
called "Empire", so here goes an imperial duergar warrior. Before the
character creation I chuckled to myself: "All bow to the new Emperor
who is going to be rolled soon". Of course, it was just a joke,
considering my newbiness to imperial RP and the cabal. And I chuckled
again when it actually happened. After all, you can't plan such kind
of things seriously, because it is not only matter of you being "worthy"
to claim the seat, but also you need some luck to be in the right place
in the right time. My emperorship was rather short ( 3+ weeks ) so
I can't say I got tired from it .

My young years were rough. Though Empire had a couple heroes, they
were not very active and we (lowbies) often were without the codex.
Also we didn't have many chances to retrieve against defenders in
the Fortress whom had one or more heroes to sanc/heal/shield them
and the Maran. The same can be said for villagers who were numerous
that time. A single rager at middle ranks can stop a couple imperials
who are trying to slay the giant.

Some imperials got pissed with deaths and deleted but hardcore
players made it to rank 40, I would mention Zhaorayne and Dekyxen.
Suddenly, the whole situation got changed. New promising members
joined the Empire: Keldzak, Zauttevre and Talabrina took the bloodoath.
Also the Village got purged. I would mark that point as the foundation
of Empire domination. Later, the new crew ranked into hero range and
joined the old crew in the short bloody victorious war against other
cabals. However, so called "imperial domination" didn't last very long
and I would not call it total domination as our opposition still was
numerous and any day when all goodies didn't logout in terror ( mostly
when Jaegrudai was around ) they were able to strike back with superior
numbers and other cabals combined.
Eventually imperial heroes deleted/autoed/aged and when I became
the Emperor the Empire could not provide good competition for
the Fortress in hero range.



Immortals

I'm sick to see all these second names with apostrophes so I didn't set
any second name for myself, I was quite comfortable with my first.

Considering raiding stuff, make hideouts nosummon. I believe you
discussed it many times already, but really, I wish to have any
advantage while defending the cabal. It just does not work against
Fortress, most of the time they simply summon defenders out. If you
are not strong enough to fight them in open combat you may not
to bother to come to defend as well.

Another thing. Centurions are completely unfair to ragers. Fix it damnit .

Khasotholas - I allowed you to share my glory by
tattoo'ing me. When it comes to huge emotes' assault or talking
in lyrics I'm certainly not the best, however, I was the sharpest
sting in your hive of Fat Bees, hehe. I apologize for not annoying
you with numerous prays, I'm not one of shrine-sitting kind of players.
I, honestly, didn't know what to do to earn your tattoo aside from
playing an imperial, doing cabal business and becoming the Emperor.
As for my kindness... Well, I just didn't want to demote a blade
for not coming to defend against 3 virtued paladins. Nor I had
enough targets inside the cabal for demotion as I tended to let
the sect leaders to deal with their sects.

Zulghinlour - Big Hovering Silent Ebony Bub of the Empire
Empire miss your random demoting and anathemization. Seriously,
mortal leaders can't see a lot and it is where your intervention
would be handy.

Avram - Who the hell are you?


Empire

From gameplaying point of view I like the cabal structure. It is much
better than waiting a leader to talk for a month or waiting an immortal
for empowerment. I don't really think that a cabal leader has any notable
influence upon the whole cabal aside one thing: he can stop to show and
the cabal will be thin without fresh blood for a while. It is all about
players who decide to join and play in the said cabal at time. We have
numerous examples when a cabal has an excellent leader but still sucks
or the leader is an idiot but average quality of cabal members is high.
And it is another reason why I think that imperial structure is good,
it does not depend on leadership that much at all. So all these bla bla
"about building strong sects" are RP only . For example, you simply
can't build strong divine sect when nobody rolls healers or shamans
for the Empire.

When it comes to cabal wars, damage reduction is a huge factor.
A healer or an invoker adds a lot in raids. Team good usually doesn't
have any problem with it, but it is not so for the Empire. Invokers are
somewhat rare due the lack of the arcane sect and healers usually delete
because playing a healer in the divine sect as a healer is hard.
The current situation with preps for melee classes makes it only worse.
Basically, when you don't have any healer/invoker within Empire it
becomes similar to playing ragers without the head. ( well, almost ).
And guess what? People just don't bother to play in hero range so
they delete or backup their chars until better times, and low-middle
ranks hesitate to rank into hero range. You can blame, demote or
anathemize them for it but it is not the way to change their nature.
They will not suddenly become ballsy skilled players who tool virtued
paladins with their unprepped duergar/fire imperial blades.
Considering politics, I believe something is broken. I don't think
that plotting against Emperor will ever work. I see no reason for sect
leaders to vote for you when they seek the throne themselves.
The pitiful fate of Njaal is the best example of a such situation.

Dryzzel - Believe or not, I approached you to swear the
bloodoath because I found it is fitting for a young "Emperor" to have
the War Master himself for that task. Overall I think you were
a decent War Master and I didn't want to plot against you. Also I had
no problem with your ragerish style of playing. But at some point
you stopped to show up. You were War Master for 5+ months and deleted
having only 300 hours. With the same rate you were going to last for
another 5 months and I haven't had so much time so I agreed to
replace you. After all, I became the War Master when I already had almost
300 hours on Grottimgesh. I think it is just fair considering the fact
I was better fighter than you. Muhahaha.

Zhaorayne, Dekyxen - rock solid blades with whom I spent
my young years. Enjoyed your company. Zhaorayne even deserved a personal
macros for my mud client to rescue him. I got dissapointed when
you deleted.

Njaal - The Tormentor of the Oasis. Very solid divine. You were
the only sect leader whom I saw around often. And I think you deserved
emperorship but voting ruined it all. We were on the distance because
I didn't like the fact you act like you are already the Emperor but I
didn't ignore your orders because they were reasonable most of the time.
Shorty after I became the War Master you deleted.

Yanacek, Gulthruck - Both very solid imperials and deadly
players. During my lifespan you both were already inactive and that is
the only concern I had with you. I planned to replace the DreadLord at
one point but nobody managed to reach your attitude until I age died.

Laes - I rarely saw you in my young years but later I started
to see you more often and enjoyed your company. I wonder why players
do not play in the shadow sect, it is so cheap when the most of your
enemies can't see you. Remember to prep when you try to assassinate
rager berserkers. Muhahaha.

Zauttevre - It is always nice to have competent healer in the
cabal, as I said before your presence doubled the imperial strength.
Also any kind of exploration or slaughter of big fargin mobs is not
possible without a healer. When you were promoted to the High Priest
(well deserved) things changed. You became twice as arrogant as you
were before, perhaps not the wisest decision when you gather votes
for the empty throne, but I still respected you.

Talabrina - Another decent and competent healer in Empire.
Keep it high as the High Priestess. Shoot your boss and come to play
more often.

Blitzenturt - One of the best of imperial blades and your
position as the War Master was well deserved. Heh, though as soon
I was made Emperor you approached me and strongly suggested to promote
you, and I decided to make some fun of you . Your specs are dumb,
but what you else you would expect from a fire giant? With nerfed cranial
there is no point to be a mace spec when you may be an axe spec,
you can do with axes whatever you are able to do with mace plus weaponbreak
and disembowel, that is why everyone and his mother are axe specs now.
I knew, one day I will see my War Master wearing earrings.
When I got you and Ferezno killed in one breath by the Feanwyyd dragon
I felt bad as a player but I laughed hard at the same time. You don't
need any armor because you hit as hard being naked as I do being well
dressed. Grab two trunks and crash them, don't forget earrings.

Drudental - Another worthy blade. I simply didn't care about
your nifty titles. When it comes to elite blades I considered fighting
abilities and dedication. If you ganged a couple heralds why the farg
should I care? I believe now I have an ability to spot every your char
from first interaction .

Cassio - a lame name but you were a dedicated blade, that was
a reason you stayed among elite blades. Too bad you didn't stick out.

Keldszak, Vivinxa - You two are worthy to mention among
mage dogs in the Palace .

Dandern - When I bloodoathed you I wasn't impressed at first
but you grew on me. One of memorable moments it was time when
four ragers + Yanomami sat in the Palace and me, Blitz and you
were at inner guardians, you said something like "I'm going to sleep
them all", went down and slept four of five of them.

Wojif - When I bloodoathed you, you were a promising blade.
I age died and you are still promising. You are a solid and worthy
blade but stop that levelsitting damnit.

Nubli, Yanine, Zyverin, Sinnria -
freash meat of the Empire. Prove that you can be better than we were. Yo.


Fortress

For my class/race/specs combo paladins and invokers are the worst enemies.
Every invoker with a clue or every clueless but virtued paladin can tool me.
With the purged village I was left to fight my worst enemies most of the
time. Yay. Virtues are broken. A class with summon, sanc, heal, word,
good melee/spell damage, good defences can do well without any virtues.
With virtues it becomes just cheap. I hesitate to listen all bla bla about
how hard are vitrues to obtain because I have seen so many paladins
at hero and all of them but one (Deohrel) were virtued. Temperance just
disables melee classes. Hiltsmash is way too cheap for a such reliable,
long duration, one round lag skill. I had to prepare my azz every time
I had to face virtued paladins while they usually wear newbie gear and
didn't even bother to prepare at all, not even to quaff fly. The day all
these paladins will gain some skill and start to use preps will be the
last day of the Empire.

Jaegrudai - True captain of Marans. Every time you were around
meant the raid is coming. Your combo with Sgralnaoc were quite deadly.
An ability to permalag and to do sick damage forced me to plan carefully
every fight with you two. Luckly, I discovered one thing, when somebody
kills and loots you, I would have a week to lick my wounds because you
would not show for a while.

Nhiala - Another decent paladin within the Fortress. I hope now
you understand how useless are shield dedicated paladins. Muahahaha.
As as said to you IC, your tactic was simply but effective.
I had some fun shoving you around. I wonder why I always lose my link
while fighting you.

Rouchevien - Certainly is not a newbie. Sadly for me. Props to
you for not bringing the whole Fortress to kill me, though your small
gangs still had potential to permalag and finish me off. Would it be
you+entwine or you+neuro or you+lion/porcupine. Luckly for me your
partners always were going to screw something With defiance you can
actually lag me for many rounds alone. In most of our fights it was me
who was a victim and you were a hunter. With the lack of numbers in Empire
at hero I don't think I ever had a fight with you where there was any
danger for you to die.

Other numerous wrath/hiltsmash happy paladins, screw you

Hykroln - We fought often in my young years, despite of your
newbiness you still were able to hit me for demolishes with wrath
weapons, quite painful at middle ranks.

Tulvaluthian, Vahletharien - Invokers are pain in the azz.
I hate stoneshatter, I hate immolation, I hate grease and web and I hate
invokers in general. All you need to do to kill me is to dispel my fly
and cast quicksand. Some of my armor and tricks were devoted to fighting
you specifically.

Thalric - I wonder why every single of your communes worked on
me every time while Gremnosh's didn't. In general, shamans were
not very dangerous for me as I had enough +str gear.

Lekerjey, Gradaelus - Well, hasted paladins with a trannie
behind them are sick. You forced me to have about -60 saves vs. paralysis
when I was geared properly. I hate to be frozen and hopeless .
Gradaelus, would you have more balls I would die twice as often as I did.
My primary plan against gangs with you was to scare you off so you wouldn't
not spam neuro on me but hide instead.



Village

In my early years I had some good fights with you but after the purge
you did not provide any competition. The purge was wrong. It is not the
first and perhaps is not the last purge. Previous purges didn't made
the village better, the last one did not as well. It is time to realize
that purges change nothing in a long run and in a short run they just
destroy the cabal for a couple weeks/months. Just because of a purge
the playbase will not change. Eventually you will induct the very
same players. I miss to see the Village as a force to worry about.
Where are raids upon the Palace to mass kill all poor imperials. Make
me finally shiver every time you login. Or at least come and gang me
damnit, because after the purge I usually see only one tactic from
villagers "stun & run".
Honestly, I miss times where I was concerned with how to get out alive
from fighting a rager rather then thinking how to keep him in combat.
Lately, I often didn't bother to fight ragers because they were going
to stun me anyway and I didn't want to spend my preps for nothing.

Jinroh - Good commander and ballsy player. Though the village
still sucked, it is not your fault. It is because of Ordasen's purge.
I didn't want truce with the village because it is fun to kill ragers
With your spec combo you had not many chances against me though I
could not finish you off because of stun.

Ranak - Overall you were a decent rager, though we both know
you were not as ballsy as everybody thinks *wink*.

Hrejial, Jarsharlax, Betraal - Gave me some
headache in my young years. I hate weaponbreak, it is so annoying
to lose primary weapon every time. Though later the problem was solved.



Scions

I didn't really seek any confrontation with you.
You were not allies for the Palace but you were not primary enemies as well.

Jyslin - You shall take the bloodoath next time.

Nazzryn - Thieves in general are very annoying. Their class design
forces most of them to knockout people and call gangs. You, at least,
didn't do it all the time. In general, I usually didn't hunt thieves.
My inventory was more important for me than a newbie junk I could grab
from their corpses . Though it must be said, thief+ap or thief+shaman
is very deadly combo for melee classes. Summon/blackjack, steal potions,
blind, spell up, get all corpse.

Dregvoshan, Zavin, Diiafd - had some fights with
you but actually I didn't put much of efforts to find or hunt you down.
As I said I was more concerned with the Fortress people.


Outlanders

Mass logigging, cowardly campers . Well, not all of you, but mostly
it was so. I can't say a lot about new crew though.
Anyway, I didn't consider you as a force, you were just an obstacle
when I go to woods to gather preps, for example.
Irked me that you would group with paladins every time to raid the Palace.

Good character, I interacted with you in a few ways (different characters). That ambush on you was gross, killing me plus the two rangers in mere rounds. Perhaps that's the reason I feel I should have prepped, I thought it would be a walk in the park. Great job on holding on through everything, I knew it was probably tough as hell.

Alynana

grottimgesh was a pretty neat char. hard to neuro you, hard to hurt you, always so prepared. i liked the way you raided..we'd be sittin around and suddenly, bam!, the codex or orb is with the empire, and i'd be dead or near it *cough*. i'm not much of a pk'er, so i'm doing a pretty good job of making the pallys and marans hasted huh

discovered 1 of the places you frequent when you'd walk past me a few times when i was duoed. anyway, great job on the char. hope to meet your next!

Thanks for the praise? I liked Grottimgesh, but I'm a little disappointed at your complaints about paladins. Especially when you follow it up by describing me, perhaps accurately, as "useless". And that's with two virtues, maran powers and decent gear. If you thought I was useless, imagine how useless I would have been without any of that. Now that I've played one, I think paladins are fairly well balanced.

"Useless" is addressed to shield dedicated paladins.
They posibilities are limited and most of the time they
just spam wrath. I personally find them boring to play.
But it does not make them weak.

Just imagine a fight. You with your average gear and without preps
and me with my uber gear (damroll 70-80) and without preps as well.
Would I have any chance to win? Doubtful.
You would just feed me with wrathes for obliterates each round
and dodge my skills with temperance.
Somebody may call it well balanced, I don't.
Do you realise that every time I won a fight against you
it is because I used additional preps and money for healing
while you used just your own skill/communes.
Would you use the same preps I used I wouldn't have any chance
against you. Not much I can do against temperance paladins,
some of my skills become useless because of champion stand
and other become unreliable because you dodge them.
If you noticed, most of the time I didn't even initiate a combat
with you letting you to start with wrath on me, because else
I would just eat your counterstrike.
And it is not because I was a duergar warrior. Basically
every melee class would have the same problems. Orcs, thieves,
rangers, warriors.
Yes I'm aware that against neutrals wrath does not work,
but when it comes to two-handed paladins they do fine against
neutrals as well.
When a storm two-handed paladin says that without virtues
he is weak because Joe Blow bashed him to death I can only laugh.
Giants are not the best target for bashes. Quaff enlarge?

When overpowered barriered invokers tool me they at least
have to prepare and find that barrier wand.

It can be argued that paladins can't finish their enemies,
however they are hard to kill as well.
You didn't kill me, right, but I didn't kill you as well.

As a variant how to balance paladins:
allow them to use both dedications: two-handed and shield
but take out virtues or tone them down greatly, like legacies.
For example, when a paladin comes to fight a basher he can
wear a shield to protect himself and when he is going to
hunt somebody, he may switch to two-handed weapons.

>Just imagine a fight. You with your average gear and without
>preps
>and me with my uber gear (damroll 70-80) and without preps as
>well.
>Would I have any chance to win? Doubtful.

Neither would I have much chance to win unless you were to lose link. With iron swords and your damroll you'd hit me for MANGLEs through sanc and protection. That allows for flurries for 1/3 - 1/2 of my health (approx. 860hp). I hardly ever hit you in melee, meaning the lion's share of my damage had to come from wrath. i.e. I have to not be lagged. Champ's stand is great for that, but it's not so difficult to engineer a situation where I can't use it.

I'm not saying you'd have an easy time killing me, or even necessarily be able to pull it off, but the same can be said for me w/ regard to you. To me, that means paladins aren't that scary. The main thing I'd be afraid of, were I playing an evil warrior, is a paladin who isn't afraid to gang. Gang + summon is ugly. Nhiala typically didn't do that, so you had little to fear from me.

>When a storm two-handed paladin says that without virtues
>he is weak because Joe Blow bashed him to death I can only
>laugh.
>Giants are not the best target for bashes. Quaff enlarge?

I know who you're talking about, and he/she sort of has a point. Say I'm a fire axe spec w/ haste preps. I come across Mr. Storm 2H Paladin. I enlarge and get ready to bash. The paladin, for his part, reduces himself. All that I means is that, once I notice the paladin's reduce, I have to reduce myself back to normal size before continuing the bash-down.

>When overpowered barriered invokers tool me they at least
>have to prepare and find that barrier wand.

So you know, I did prep on several occasions when we fought. Though, only with stoneskin and/or haste.

""Useless" is addressed to shield dedicated paladins.
They posibilities are limited and most of the time they
just spam wrath. I personally find them boring to play.
But it does not make them weak."

Useless but not weak? Interesting. Maybe for creating a PK force like Grot, yes. Paladins are about RP. Even as a 2-hander there is a RP price to pay in return for the powers.

You play a shield paladin to emphasize defense. Defense is the unsung hero, because it will keep you and others alive. Even you know this, from what I observed. It's far more important than offense, but won't land you as many kills. I understand perfectly why you find shield paladins boring. You prefer to kill people. Even so, they can be more versatile than you are conceding.

No paladin in their right mind would spam wrath on Grot, since he had a certain piece of gear. When I saw it, I used anything BUT wrath: curse of radiance, angel's wing, flamestrike, call lightning, and disarm. That's more skills than I see a lot of warriors using in combat. I may be useless, but at least I'm not weak!

"Just imagine a fight. You with your average gear and without preps
and me with my uber gear (damroll 70-80) and without preps as well.
Would I have any chance to win? Doubtful."

You just said they were useless! Shield Paladins are meat shields with a side order of shield. You also chose finesse specs that don't lag Paladins. As much as you say Blitz picked dumb specs, he is a far superior paladin killer than Grot was. The trade off is that he also incurs more risks and died more from what I observed.

"Do you realise that every time I won a fight against you
it is because I used additional preps and money for healing
while you used just your own skill/communes. "

Yep, that's why we would hit and run against Grot. As much as you hated it, wrath & run works. Wear down his legs and empty his coinpurse. What, you didn't enjoy chasing elf paladins down eastern road? Come on, that's FUN! Quit being so boring.

"When a storm two-handed paladin says that without virtues
he is weak because Joe Blow bashed him to death I can only laugh.
Giants are not the best target for bashes. Quaff enlarge?"

There are a lot of elf paladins, too. Bash elf, get all corpse, right?

I don't see them combining shield and 2H, because it detracts from their RP. As a reward for the RP, you have to give them something. Give the defensive paladins defensive virtues, offensive paladins offensive virtues, the unique paladins certain unique virtues, or any combination. It keeps the class fresh. It's like a cruel random reward schedule that they implement with shifters - although they'll never sucker me into playing one of those!

There's no way Paladins are overpowered. The price for getting those powers is eating #### with a straight face. Many of them are running low on CON, and falling fast. Take a look at Nhiala's 4-Factors under Vallan's goodbye post.

I don't see why you're upset about Paladins. You steamrolled everybody along with Blitz. There has to be some class that inherently stands in the way of an evil emperor, and it should be a Fortress Paladin. And it's not like you did poorly. VERY few know how to prep for Paladins. You did. Oh, and incidentally you became Emperor. Well done, there.

Useless but not weak? Interesting. Maybe for creating a PK
force like Grot, yes. Paladins are about RP. Even as a
2-hander there is a RP price to pay in return for the powers.

Well, if I get this right, paladins are about RP
and duergar warriors are not.
Honestly, many people play various classes and they RP with
every class they play. I don't see why when they RP with their
paladins they are given virtues and when they RP with their
warriors they are given nothing. (in rare cases 3rd legacy which
is nothing compared with a virtue).

In truth, RP is irrelevant here. You can play duergar
warrior who wears a shield and a small stick as a weapon
and you can play a shield dedicated paladin geared for PK,
gather progged damage dealing gear.

You play a shield paladin to emphasize defense. Defense is
the unsung hero, because it will keep you and others alive.
Even you know this, from what I observed. It's far more
important than offense, but won't land you as many kills. I
understand perfectly why you find shield paladins boring. You
prefer to kill people. Even so, they can be more versatile
than you are conceding.

Their limited abilities to finish people doesn't bother me.
Healers are not the best killers as well, but I find them
interesting enough to play.
It is all about their lack of diversity.
And when it comes to gameplay, a two-handed paladin can protect
his group better than a shield dedicated paladin.
I personally just ignored shield paladins and attacked their mates.
Two-hander wouldn't let me to do so, hiltsmash/rescue or lag me
and I'm screwed. Hence I call shield specs useless.
If you ever played a conjurer you know the feeling, when you just
stand next to an archon doing nothing and being completely useless.
Shield paladins are somewhat the same.

No paladin in their right mind would spam wrath on Grot, since
he had a certain piece of gear. When I saw it, I used
anything BUT wrath: curse of radiance, angel's wing,
flamestrike, call lightning, and disarm. That's more skills
than I see a lot of warriors using in combat. I may be
useless, but at least I'm not weak!

This certain piece of gear I simply had to use to have any
chances against wrath spamming paladins.
I had two choices, prep to full and try to outdamage them
or use this piece of gear. But when I use this piece of gear
I sacrifice my offensive abilities greatly and I don't add
anything to my melee defences as you have shield mastery.

You just said they were useless! Shield Paladins are meat
shields with a side order of shield. You also chose finesse
specs that don't lag Paladins. As much as you say Blitz picked
dumb specs, he is a far superior paladin killer than Grot was.
The trade off is that he also incurs more risks and died more
from what I observed.

Actually he is not. Blitz can lag you with nerfed cranial,
which can be dodged by temperance palainds and I can lag you
with lash, which you can dodge as well. Bashing a shield
dedicated temperance paladin is just dumb. If you would ask
me to choose the best spec against paladins it will be axe,
not mace.

Yep, that's why we would hit and run against Grot. As much as
you hated it, wrath & run works. Wear down his legs and empty
his coinpurse. What, you didn't enjoy chasing elf paladins
down eastern road? Come on, that's FUN! Quit being so boring.

Heh, it wouldn't work, I had over 1200 moves with eq
and unlimited source of gold.

There are a lot of elf paladins, too. Bash elf, get all
corpse, right?

I don't see them combining shield and 2H, because it detracts
from their RP. As a reward for the RP, you have to give them
something. Give the defensive paladins defensive virtues,
offensive paladins offensive virtues, the unique paladins
certain unique virtues, or any combination. It keeps the
class fresh. It's like a cruel random reward schedule that
they implement with shifters - although they'll never sucker
me into playing one of those!

Bashing elf paladins is more reliable, but every melee class
can be bashed also. And while sword spec duergar usually
can tank long enough to survive bashes many other classes can't.
You have problems with elf paladin dying to bash but you don't
have problems with svirf thief dying the same way. That is unfair.
If you seek bash immunity for paladins, consider giving bash
immunity to other melee classes. ( which is not goin got happen )
And, actually, the reason I proposed to combine shield and
two-handers is to give some bash protection to elf paladins
as storm paladins are already protected.
RP is irrelevant here as well. Nobody forces you to use two-handed
skills.

There's no way Paladins are overpowered. The price for
getting those powers is eating #### with a straight face.
Many of them are running low on CON, and falling fast. Take a
look at Nhiala's 4-Factors under Vallan's goodbye post.

Many of them running low on con because they die where more
skilled player can survive. If somebody managed to con die
with a temperance shield paladin he is able to con die with
every class in the game.
I don't think Lariya dies every day, nor Nhiala did.

I don't see why you're upset about Paladins. You steamrolled
everybody along with Blitz. There has to be some class that
inherently stands in the way of an evil emperor, and it should
be a Fortress Paladin. And it's not like you did poorly.
VERY few know how to prep for Paladins. You did. Oh, and
incidentally you became Emperor. Well done, there.

Nobody shall stand in the way of Emperor,
Everybody should bow down to the Emperor.

nt

I have a few things to say about this

On RP affecting the way a class is played,
As a paladin there are a few things that are forced on you *somewhat*
You shouldn't run like a little biatch in the face of evil *not much of a paladin if you run against unfair odds*
As a duergar thats fine *less your a zerker but hey, thats a diffrent story and still involves some form of RP*

You have this whole no neutral killing thing *less your RP gives a decent reason for it (And immortal dependant) though this doesn't hinder them much as I can't recall a time I ever killed a neut mob..*

Lack of killing via one skill
Aka, I can't spam bash, and perma lag you, ever.
Paladins have no reliable way to lag, as a twohand I had what? two skills? and those had more along the lines of pincer type lag...
So you must engineer traps..
As a duergar you can eat root/ get a bash legacy, wield axe;wield axe
bash bash bash bash get all corpse to a large portion of the Pbase *even at hero =P*

Mana,
Now elves.. eh they don't have much to worry about but as a human, UG running out of mana without certain progged items was almost always a fear even when fighting just one person..

So to put it in perspective
It costs 80 mana for sanc
80 for both essences
80? for that dodgy thing
10? for bless
30? for protection
10 for detect invis
10 for detect evil
70? for that detect area evil thingy
and to finish it all off
80? for champ stand

Thats a pretty pile of mana

How to deal with a paladin thats prepped up like this?
retreat... its easy, flee, qua teleportation

Oh, and most of these don't last much beyond 20 ingame hours..

As a duergar Mana isn't a issue, preps are, and yes they do require some time to gather, but you can continue to quaff/eat/zap so long as you have said items even if your stat bar is 1hp/1000 -40m/1000 -50v/1000 so long as you can get at these items they are usuable

A few lucky energy drains plagues spores bleeding (The list goes on, woe is me)

Target choices
As a paladin you really unless have some RP reason (Tribby/etc..) really only fight evils which although you can go toe to toe with a group of 4 solo with just your list of supps...
A group of neuts or even goodies can take you down (You get wanted, good tribbies hunt you down, *Ug*)

As a duergar your free too kill even your fellow cabal mates.

Now, I agree Paladins are STRONG but really only against evils, *I'm playing a evil currently so don't even get me started...*
And they can fall *Heh so what if it took a Vindicator that was stacked with hell gear, And a justicar that was equally stacked like a mofo*
I didn't have a sick ass PK ratio like you did *though I admit your gear and prep knowledge apparently goes way beyond mine*
So paladins aren't sick unstoppable unbalanced juggernaughts
Just damn close to it..

But really the only way to settle such a argument is for you to roll a twohand and take over the world!!! Muhahahahah.. no really I'm not kidding..

>You shouldn't run like a little biatch in the face of evil
>*not much of a paladin if you run against unfair odds*

If you read Grott's logs at qhcf.net, you'd notice paladins running from him like a scared little kids here and there...

>So paladins aren't sick unstoppable unbalanced juggernaughts
>Just damn close to it..

Go read his log starring Lariya, where three hero imperials couldn't get her down from perfect health. This is the case when the person playing paladin knows his trade well (just as Grottimgesh does with warrior).
All this "overpowerness" thing very much depends on individual's personal skills.

> But really the only way to settle such a argument is for you to roll a twohand and take over the world!!!

Are you sure you want to have Grott on the other side, now that you're playing evil?

When a warrior has to RP to get his legacies or specs, I could see adjusting paladins some. As things stand now, some paladins at hero have 1, in some cases no virtues.

They aren't just given out for hitting a certain level, they are given to people who roleplay their religion well, and observe the severe limitations of their class RP wise. Then you also have to hope your god is aware of what you do, and around enough to give them to you.

Thirdly, you don't choose what virtues you get, they are assigned, so comparing them to legacies is apples and oranges. Warriors only concern as far as getting their skills go is level based. Paladins are a lot more difficult to get virtues on.

And finally, many of the things a paldin is given as a part of a virtue are very limited in their use. Sure, a light of heaven looks nasty when you pop it on a prepped duergar (heh), but it's not going to do you any good against anyone who is neutral who may attack you. Same with many of the skills and supps, they're useful, but not in all situations. You, being a duergar warrior, just got the short end of the "most uses for the most supps and skills" stick.

Well I certainly would have like to see you as Emperor for a bit longer. Man oh man don't you think being stuck and unable to level is frustrating for me? Maybe it's the times I log in, but usually I find my range full of village/Scion/Outlander/Fortress giving zero change for a ground, and causing me to spend half my time duckin the gangs. The last time I tried to group with some unknown bard he set me up for a Scion rape session. I had to laugh though it was nicely done.
Anyhoo, nuff about me.
I think you rocked both as War Master and Emperor, time and time again I would see a pack hitting the palace solely to get you, and time and time again it was always one of their corpses littering the floor.
I can only hope you have time to roll another "serious" character because Empire could use your like.

I knew you were badass, but I didn't realize you were BADASS. Who knew back then you'd grow up to be Emperor and have such a sweet pk ratio. I enjoyed our travels too, especially in the early days. I'm honored you had a rescue alias for me, I sure needed it. I also agree with the nosummon from cabals, I can't count how many times that gang fortress would show up and summon me into one of their 8 on 1 smackdowns. Very well played, hope you stick around.

I agree with everything you said about the village purge and the plotting for the emperor seat. I think somehow the support among common imperials should count as well. Khas can fix it when he gets out from rehab.
We never were close, but it comes mostly from that we were different generations. And of course that you did not like to die. I prefered blades that would die taking the blows for me, so i could nail the kills. You always knew what to do, though i remember one time we let Jaegrudai away because you stripped instead of entwined, but who cares. Well done with a brutal charachter, but if you are like me it will take some time before you find a new char you like. Its the price to pay for glory.

Good luck with your next and stay away from young girls.

We had a few skirmishes, but I had the overall impression that you cared too much for your inventory to take the risk of getting to me. Once I was lucky there in Arkham when entwined and then a crash. Then again, I had all those nice things already and I would have been able to escape . Anyways, you faced difficult odds at times and still stuck it out, well done for that.

- Khasotholas - I allowed you to share my glory by
tattoo'ing me.

Damn right, and thanks. That's very much part of my religion.

- When it comes to huge emotes' assault or talking
in lyrics I'm certainly not the best, however, I was the sharpest
sting in your hive of Fat Bees, hehe.

Agreed. Emotes and lyrical speech are all well and good, but they're not something that are needed.

- I apologize for not annoying
you with numerous prays, I'm not one of shrine-sitting kind of players.

Don't. I enjoy a good talk with a follower, but every has different priorities. Your priorities fit your character.

- I, honestly, didn't know what to do to earn your tattoo aside from
playing an imperial, doing cabal business and becoming the Emperor.
As for my kindness... Well, I just didn't want to demote a blade
for not coming to defend against 3 virtued paladins. Nor I had
enough targets inside the cabal for demotion as I tended to let
the sect leaders to deal with their sects.

Don't go too much by immortal comments on premium battlefield. They're mainly notes on things I might forget... they don't give an impression about how I feel about a character. I liked Grottimgesh... a good bit. Fun to watch, and in the end, a perfect follower for me who led by example, not flowery words. Although sphere death would have suited you better!

As for the kindness thing... well, the blade got demoted anyway. I can understand you leaving it in the sect leaders hands, and that's exactly what happened. But I really wasn't willing to let it go. You're the Emperor for crying out loud. Any citizen who can should make the effort (or appearance of effort, depending on the Imperial), to fight by your side when the odds are against you.

Good luck with your next, all in all, a memorable, excellent character.

Khas

Although sphere death would have suited you better!

I kept it in secret, but now I have to say the truth.
Grottimgesh was not designed as an ultimate PKiller.
I enjoy good fights and raids but I'm too slothful to hunt
people around. So most of my fights happened while raiding
or people coming after me, not me coming after them.
Some of them died, indeed, but I was more concerned with
how to stay alive rather than nailing a kill.
Because reeq is painful considering the set I was used to.


Any citizen who can should make the effort (or appearance of effort,
depending on the Imperial), to fight by your side when the odds are
against you.

That is very serious question. I would like to comment it a bit.
I won't make any common rules for it as players will always find
an abuse for any rules.
I just want to explain what I think about raid/defend stuff.

As a player, I don't like fake defenses. I feel cheated when somebody
makes appearance of efforts while not really defending.
Those defending healers who wait for dirt kick and recall make me sick.
Those ragers who come to "defend" and die like sheeps without
making any real efforts to harm intruders make me sick as well.
I prefer to see players who stays fair, if they don't plan to defend
they should not come at all. I would think even less of them if
they would come for fake defense.
That is general rule I tried to follow myself.
When I come to defend, I actually defend. I have a good plan,
or a few tricks to try, or I expect that some of my enemies will
screw something, or they will get cocky and will come without
good preparation and I will be able to knock one of them. Whatever.
If I don't think I can do anything constructive I usually don't
come to defend at all. The key word here is "I don't think".
Very possible, I'm mistaken and should I come I would defend
successfully. But if I'm not ready to defend in spirit
(nor have any idea how to do that). I don't come.

When a blade does not come to defend against 3 virtued paladins
because he is scared and doesn't know what to do, I have no problems
with him (he is not a rager berseker after all). Because it is not
the odds I would expect to be able to handle from many players.
When he is not ready to defend spiritually, he will not be able
to defend well anyway, he will just come and die.
Demotion would not teach him how to win against such odds.
Demotion would just make him to delete or burst out his con.

Though, of course, when odds are fair, imperial blades are supposed
to be able to handle them.

"When I bloodoathed you I wasn't impressed at first
but you grew on me."

yeah, i was tired and just wanted a damn oath, no bloody questions asked! :-P. as i said in my farewell note it was my first bard and i had no ambission really to do anything but learning the ropes of the bards. anyway that defense was so nice and i was so angry when i realised hadn't been logging that session. hope to meet you in the fields again.

An excellent character. Though you were about as much RPer as am I , I enjoyed your charcter alot. Dedicated and deadly, what else can one possibly wish for? I haven't seen you doing much as an Emperor, but hey, it's not like you were one for ages

You were one of the few who mocked me and made it out safely. Damn good job. Your PK stats make me envious

Laes

Yeah, I liked you up until you supplanted me. I had a descent idea that you might do that, I guess I should have Anathe'd you, but I only did that for good reasons. Avram is right though, I think its sad as well that in all of your stats there are no demotions. I wish mine were still there when I deleted, but because I wasn't Imperial anymore, the log didn't show them. I Anathed three people and demoted plenty. As far as not being around, the truth is I was around quite a bit, usually at the peak time of the game at night when few Imperials were. SO, of course neither you nor Yanacek saw me which helped lead to that situation. Oh well, doesn't matter. If I have to choose between CF and married life/career, I think i know who will win out every time.

Good job,
Aaron

Yeah, I liked you up until you supplanted me. I had a descent idea
that you might do that, I guess I should have Anathe'd you, but I only
did that for good reasons.

Muhaha, there can be only one War Master.
And I've decided it should be me.

Avram is right though, I think its sad as well that in all of your stats there are no demotions.

Do you realize that if you demote somebody it means you made a mistake
promoting him in first place or you made a mistake appointing somebody
who promoted him.
So every your demotion is reflection of your own mistake.

And, actually, I had a few hidden anathemizations/demotions that
were done by other person but it was me who initiated them.

nt

And as for pushover campers, I rarely ever traveled in a group. But you did a good job from what I saw, I wasn't around for when you were Emperor. But War Master yes. One last thing... God damn Tactics!

I think I wrote my thoughts about you personally in my farewell post. Compare average playing hours with mine (Zauttevre rolled on Feb 14, deleted on Apr 27, 15 + 31 + 27 days = 73 days, with 424 playing hours it means), 5.8 hours average per day. I just burned my character too fast to the ground.

Arrogance was caused by three reasons, 1) I didn't want to become a lame emperor because 2) I was had already lost interest to this character mostly because of 3) Khasotholas interactions forcing me to mostly play solo (see below why).

Healer is my favourite class for the last few years. I don't think I'll make another imperial healer. Grottimgesh is right, playing a healer as a healer in empire (from my experience, although I think I got unfair treatment) is quite impossible.

I didn't die often so I didn't need serious help often and donations help didn't seem to qualify, therefore I couldn't help others seriously. People tend to prefer to risk and die and lose their things (not very good things as they knew they had to pay with something serious for a healer help to get better things) and then the healer is left alone to retrieve the codex. Playing a shaman in such condition is way more suitable. If I play an imperial again I'll play a shaman, not healer.

You did very well as stated else where in this thread. I liked travelling with you, you allways knew what to do and your limitations as well as the strength and weakness of your foes...

I was in two minds when you made me high priestess.. First i had just stated and stated to you when you asked me that my times where dropping and had dropped very much. First state was like yeah, high priestess - cool... The second one was ... Hmmm, what about the time but you told it would be solved (not the correct wording but i keep the details for myself).

To the masses out there, yes i have prayed to the Lords of the Empire but no reply yet...

Talabrina

Didn't feel bad by placing my vote for you for Emperor. You did a good job and judging by your other battlefield post, it looks like you definitely knew what you were doing.

I admit I was kinda pissed about the Scion truce thing, just because right after you made it they were breaking it, but we couldn't. I was tempted to go take the Sceptre and see what became of it, oh well.

Good luck with the next.

Enjoyed it Grott, have fun with your next.

say Oh thank god! MINE! MINE MINE MINE! MINE! IT'S ALL MINE! MINEMINEMINEMINEMINEMINEMINE!! MIIIIIIIINE!

emote does a little dance on the Emperors freshly dug grave, then digs it up, severs the dessicated head, pisses on it, kicks it around for an hour, picks it up, holds it in front of his face and says 'MINE! HA!'.

And it would be well-deserved.

sure wish i hadn't been so beaten up before that one fight
near a little used entance to the underdark.
so this means the next emperor won't be a duergar?!?!?!
ooc-well done in any case evil guy.
ic- good riddance cretin.

Is this three Emperors in a row that have age died, team evil start deleting at your first death again!

Just kidding, did not know you but assume you did an awesome job..Dwoggurd?

Where are the powerplays? Where are the councilmembers becoming anathema because the Emperor finds out they're conspiring to overthrow him and take the seat for themselves?

*sigh* Where's the backstabbing?

I'd say he wasn't Emperor long enough for there to be any serious conspiracies.

Yanacek, on the other hand, had tons of folks try to overthrow him. Why they didn't succeed is another story.

It was paranoia that kept Ol' Yanksack from being overthrown. None of the council members wanted anyone but themselves to have it, and the one who had enough power to take and possibly hold it made the rest too paranoid to agree. That and the rarity of certain council members showing up complicates things.

He only practiced shield cleave up to 85%. Slacker

Enjoyed all our fights, though when you had the healer or invoker to help you, I had little chance to do anything but barely survive. That time you had me entwined and deafened in Imperial Lands I was just waiting for you to offhand my wand and kill me, I got lucky. Personally I thought you were a hell of a lot better then any of the other Imperial warriors, but maybe I just saw you at your best. Whatever the case, I thought you deserved Emperor and I'm sure Empire takes a serious blow with your death. I know at least I have one humorous memory of you....

Grottimgesh yells 'Tulvaluthian get out of my guild, you smell'

Great work man, good luck with the next, you were a beast.