Wed Mar 24 21:12:36 2004


At 12 o'clock AM, Day of the Great Gods, 26th of the Month of the Dark Shades
on the Theran calendar Oltrambel perished, never to return.

Sorry to see you go. The whole concept of neutral npcs can be irksome. In some sense, I don't blame you for deleting, since Paladin RP can drive a lot of people nuts.

And hey, even our brilliant president doesn't take too kindly to neutrals either: "Either you're with us, or you're with the Terrorists!"

Audriel

You seemed a good paladin into my eyes, and pretty respective of the code as well. Too bad that this happened (I don't say it was not deserved, but loosing your communes in hero range does really suck). Anyways, try another one, I find paladins rather cool.

Baldar

You seemed a good paladin into my eyes, and pretty respective of the code as well. Too bad that this happened (I don't say it was not deserved, but loosing your communes in hero range does really suck). Anyways, try another one, I find paladins rather cool.

Baldar

Such a pity. Oh... well.

You levelled past me after I got conjure angel and slowed down looking for pks... would have been pretty nice to have a paladin/conjie group, considering how effective either class is at ranking.

Rolled Oltrambel up to try an empowerment class as my past couple characters (Silmareen and Hykroln) had never talked to or interacted with an imm. Too bad I play this game too much and after being logged in for a long time and without much sleep I stupidly killed some neutral mobs for no reason either than their gear because I was bored. I deleted because I had already put a couple dozen hours in since the loss of empowerment and it was wearing me down dying, regearing, dying regearing...etc until I found my redemption. I knew it would take quite a few more hours to get empowered again and well, university exams are coming up...
Anyway, here are a few farewells...

Phaelim : I only have positive things to say, first time I ever had any interaction with an imm and it exceeded my expectations. Was fun trying to find your shrine when I knew you were watching thinking "Geez this guy is an idiot". You probably thought that a lot actually but I learned a few things at least. Losing empowerment when you're in the hero range is well.....rough to say the least, but I agree with what happened and thought it was cool that immortals are actually watching empowered characters to make sure they don't just do whatever they want. Th virtues you gave me were awesome, I wish I would've had the chance to try them out but I committed my error right after I got them. Anyway, thanks Phaelim for the time you gave me, I appreciated all of it.

For you mere mortals, well I had fun with all of you except imperials (You don't have to loot my food and charred bracers you know).
Jinroh: Those few fights we had were fun, your character is pretty cool and you're obviously pretty sick in pk. Makes me want to play a rager.
All of Olty's friends : Thanks for making ranking funner than it usually is....

Unempowered for killing neutral mobs?


Is there a detail missing? Was it in your religion not to kill needlessly? I'm confused.


Someone curious.

First of all, I wasn't going to unempower him for killing a neutral mob for gear, I was giving him a stern warning. The next time he did it I would have rained down the hurtness. Why? Well, paladins are the swords of the Light, destroyers of evil, protectors of the innocent, so on, so forth. No where in there does it say "Destroy evil, and neutral if they have something that shines." What is a neutral mob guilty of? Holding equipment the paladin wants. Otherwise it is in the category of "an innocent", same as any neutral PC who has not proved themself an enemy. And to be clear, this should include neutral mobs that are aggresive, or the paladin makes attack them for some reason, which is extremely cheap in my eyes. If the mob is attacking, it's probably because you came into their home uninvited. If you came into my house invited, I would probably be pretty pissed too. That doesn't make me evil, or give you the moral right to kill me.

So a REAL goodie should never be able to enter the Chessmaster's tower. As requesting the key from the butler makes him agro.


And a Real goodie should never get orumous' belt...or any number of other items almost TAILORED to be worn by goodies, but on neutral mobs.

?



"Death awaits ya all, wit nasteh big pointeh teeth!"

A REAL goodie should not be hacking away at neutral anything just because they have something they want. If they really need that item, find an evil that has it and take it from his rotting corpse.

I'm really not.

But, I can think of at LEAST 3 dwarf shamans of the past that used to kill Ludan for his rings and axe. Two of them were cabal leaders, and at least one of them became a Heroimm.

Well, maybe they didn't kill him directly, but they used the ole' req from him, flee to a certain close-by mob, let that mob kill him, tactic.


IC at the time, I thought their ic explanation for doing it that way and getting around killing him directly was somewhat ooc and Iffy....but when one of them Immed, I figured that it was copacetic(sp?).


"Death awaits ya all, wit nasteh big pointeh teeth!"

That situation falls into the make a mob attack you so you can have a very weak excuse to kill them. Lame, and I don't care what reason their character comes up with it. No, it doesn't matter if they were the ones to do the deed, they caused it. That would be the same as paying someone else to it, their actions led directly to that non-evil mob's death. Maybe an immortal didn't see them do it. Maybe one did and didn't feel it warranted any type of punishment. Myself, if I see it, at the very least I'll toss them a warning to actually play like they're a good guy, not the next up and coming mass-murderer.

Any more comments or questions on this subject really should be moved over to the gameplay forum.

So if I want to use the chessmaster's tower, I have to find an evil guy with the key and PK him for it??? Like evils even hold onto it.

Why even have the area for goodies then?

Also, are you aware how many and how often Elite Dwarven Guards are summoned and fought for their equipment? This has been done for years, by tattooed paladins and goodie shamans who've hero-immed, IMMED-Immed and is still done today.

Finally, if I ask someone for something and he says no, fine, but if he attacks me and TRIES TO KILL ME you're damn right I've got a reason to kill him!!

OOC abuse of rules to request when you know you'll be attacked you say? OK, how about playability?

Are you saying that goodies have to request practically everything to re-equip??? Evil mobs have...well..evil stuff.

So you'd reject a newbie paladin that killed for the Short sword of swiftness and a shirt of shining chain? Jeese man! Well, like I said, there goes Taurus' bracers as well.

Be good to the newbies, please, and for us guys who'd rather PLAY THE GAME then "consider all the goodness in the world" for 45 minutes to an hour every time we die!

You'd rather have us do that then attack a neutral mob or two and be playing again in 20 minutes???? Playability, my man, playability.

Yeah, admittidly, if we were actually playing D + D certain things like killing butlers wouldn't be done, but the IMMS have never cracked down on these "Taurus bracer" things because of playability issues.

(Lemme just say "playability" once more. OOOOoohhh...)

Also, in D+D I'd just kill the mother wyvern and set lord tabershaw free, or just get a group of heroes to end the War in Mortorn, but I can't do that here now can I?

Suspension of belief swings both ways.

If it goes over the top and a paladin starts slaughtering villages of gnomish or wood elven women and children he should get ganked, I agree, but most pallys I've seen can differentiate between asking the bulter, taurus, and elite guards and being attacked and mindless slaughter.

The balance we have is a good one, I think. Don't raze villages and kill women and kids, but if some feral barbarian attacks (or snob as in the butler's case) you because you asked him for something, it's cool IC and OOC the IMMS want us to play and enjoy the game.

Now if this is your outlook for goddies followers of you, well, that's your decision but it's a very brutal one making things 300% more difficult and time consuming and isn't in sync with what we've been allowed to do as pallys for years now.

Sorry if this came across as angry or something, but I just really don't agree with you and if this is how harsh you are in a Game, which is again you're right, you've turned me, and others probably, off to ever making a goodie follower of your religion.

Mayby it's good knowing this now.

I tried not to kill neutral sentient mobs. I may have done it once or twice but I don't recall ever doing it, and I do recall having my entire set given to a neutral mob by scions whereupon I considered it lost, rather than kill the mob.

I'm glad Phaelim is making paladins act like paladins. I don't like the fact that any paladin ever gets virtues, let alone empowered, where they try to get gear like this.

Paladins don't need uber-gear. They are powerful using just the pieces they can get with request and or from evil mobs. I disagree that it is needed for playability. You don't need that gear. You should, however, act like a paladin. Your argument seems to center around the supposition that a paladin needs to be able to kill neutrals to make the game playable. I think a paladin is strong enough without this.

If the price of getting at those evils in the chessmaster is to kill a non-hostile man, I don't see why a paladin would do that. Would a paladin kill a guy who just wants to do his job as a butler? Hardly. He'd be protecting him in most cases.

The "request and kill" tactic was never better than just outright typing "k noble" or whatever, imho. Your character knows from past experience that request will precipitate an angry response so in requesting, he is knowingly provoking the response so that he can kill the mob and take the gear. He is murdering out of greed.

I realise it is a new approach by the imms because I don't agree that they can possibly have been blind to the fact that some cabal leaders and hero-imms were getting gear by using the request-from-neutral tactic. There have been so many posts about this in the past that I find it inconceivable that at least some imms were not aware. However, I think it is better that it is recognised now even if it wasn't in the past. I hope other imms follow suit and start slapping down paladin "slip-ups", personally.

>So if I want to use the chessmaster's tower, I have to find
>an evil guy with the key and PK him for it??? Like evils even
>hold onto it.

>
>Why even have the area for goodies then?
>

Who says it's for lightwalkers? Assuming you're ranking own pawns, it is a lot better to rank their as neutrals or evils since you have 16 pawns to kill before having to walk back instead of eight. It's not like there are no alternative ranking areas either


>Also, are you aware how many and how often Elite Dwarven
>Guards are summoned and fought for their equipment? This has
>been done for years, by tattooed paladins and goodie shamans
>who've hero-immed, IMMED-Immed and is still done today.
>
Too many, doesn't make it right in my eyes. Elite dwarven guards are protecting their king and fighting Duergar (remember the EEEVIL dwarves?)

>Finally, if I ask someone for something and he says no, fine,
>but if he attacks me and TRIES TO KILL ME you're damn right
>I've got a reason to kill him!!
>

Were I an imm I'd have changed that code day one of having the power to do so, I'd make it so they just told you to go piss off.

>OOC abuse of rules to request when you know you'll be attacked
>you say? OK, how about playability?
>
I don't buy paladins being unplayable without being able to cause mobs to attack by requesting. When you can guarantee the outcome of request being dead mob, just kill them in the first place, you are doing the same thing.

>Are you saying that goodies have to request practically
>everything to re-equip??? Evil mobs have...well..evil stuff.
>
A paladin should be able to type outfit in the guild, find a sword to request or grab it off of an evil mob and pk. Also, plenty of evil mobs have stuff that is not anti-good. Ever notice the commune Remove Taint in your supplication list?

>So you'd reject a newbie paladin that killed for the Short
>sword of swiftness and a shirt of shining chain? Jeese man!
Let's see, Paladin, bastion of light and goodness goes storming into a castle and kills the guy trying to run the place and steals his sword and armor. Damn right I'd give them a warning over that and unempower them if they kept it up. Ever read the code?

>Well, like I said, there goes Taurus' bracers as well.
>
Yup. Gee, and there aren't any other replacements you could possibly find or go to a shop and buy.

>Be good to the newbies, please, and for us guys who'd rather
>PLAY THE GAME then "consider all the goodness in the world"
>for 45 minutes to an hour every time we die!
>

Play a neutral then.

>You'd rather have us do that then attack a neutral mob or two
>and be playing again in 20 minutes???? Playability, my man,
>playability.
>

Still not buying it, not only are there evil mobs you can regear off of, they are summonable, so you don't even have to walk around to them. Paladin's are absolutely the easiest class to play in the game as long as you can stay empowered.

>Yeah, admittidly, if we were actually playing D + D certain
>things like killing butlers wouldn't be done, but the IMMS
>have never cracked down on these "Taurus bracer" things
>because of playability issues.
>
> Lemme just say "playability" once more. OOOOoohhh...)
>
Say it all you want, doesn't change my mind. Paladin's have a code, it is stringent for a reason. Play a neutral warrior if you aren't willing to follow it.

>Also, in D+D I'd just kill the mother wyvern and set lord
>tabershaw free, or just get a group of heroes to end the War
>in Mortorn, but I can't do that here now can I?
>
>Suspension of belief swings both ways.
>
Finally, a valid point.

>If it goes over the top and a paladin starts slaughtering
>villages of gnomish or wood elven women and children he should
>get ganked, I agree, but most pallys I've seen can
>differentiate between asking the bulter, taurus, and elite
>guards and being attacked and mindless slaughter.
>
Please tell me how to differentiate killing one or two nice guys out of sheer greed vs. killing many, and how it's okay to do as a lightwalker?

>The balance we have is a good one, I think. Don't raze
>villages and kill women and kids, but if some feral barbarian
>attacks (or snob as in the butler's case) you because you
>asked him for something, it's cool IC and OOC the IMMS want us
>to play and enjoy the game.
>
Again, that barbarian doesn't attack until after you request, see above.

>Now if this is your outlook for goddies followers of you,
>well, that's your decision but it's a very brutal one making
>things 300% more difficult and time consuming and isn't in
>sync with what we've been allowed to do as pallys for years
>now.
>

300%? Maybe 100%, but as far as I'm concerned, Paladin's are supposed to be hard to play.

>Sorry if this came across as angry or something, but I just
>really don't agree with you and if this is how harsh you are
>in a Game, which is again you're right, you've turned me, and
>others probably, off to ever making a goodie follower of your
>religion.
>

Be happy I'm not an imm and haven't been you're patron. You would probably have been unempowered 5 times.

>Mayby it's good knowing this now.

>Who says it's for lightwalkers? Assuming you're ranking own
>pawns, it is a lot better to rank their as neutrals or evils
>since you have 16 pawns to kill before having to walk back
>instead of eight. It's not like there are no alternative
>ranking areas either


I've always felt it's been for both, why else have good and evil pawns?


>Too many, doesn't make it right in my eyes. Elite dwarven
>guards are protecting their king and fighting Duergar
> remember the EEEVIL dwarves?)


Yes, I know duergar are evil, thanks for the update. And here's where my points about suspension of belief and the fact that Tatooed Paladins, HERO-IMMS AND IMMS have done it.

I mean, if you want to play an uber-dwarf and refuse to do so, I think that's something that should be rewarded of course, but if so many paragons of good and virtue do it, why can't I?


>Were I an imm I'd have changed that code day one of having the
>power to do so, I'd make it so they just told you to go piss
>off.


But they haven't, now have they? I wonder why? Mayby it's so Goodies arn't shut out of getting certain types of EQ and given a valid IC reason to do it.


>I don't buy paladins being unplayable without being able to
>cause mobs to attack by requesting. When you can guarantee
>the outcome of request being dead mob, just kill them in the
>first place, you are doing the same thing.


I never said that they were unplayable, but being so hard on them getting basic EQ quickly is a gameplay, fun issue.

How many goodies kill tarus for bracers and the ghost for the templar's crown? Are they all now evil/neutral in your eyes??


>A paladin should be able to type outfit in the guild, find a
>sword to request or grab it off of an evil mob and pk. Also,
>plenty of evil mobs have stuff that is not anti-good. Ever
>notice the commune Remove Taint in your supplication list?


OK, so it's OK to wear a dwarven ribcage and wield a sword of wailing sould as a pally because the taint is gone?


>>So you'd reject a newbie paladin that killed for the Short
>>sword of swiftness and a shirt of shining chain? Jeese man!
>Let's see, Paladin, bastion of light and goodness goes
>storming into a castle and kills the guy trying to run the
>place and steals his sword and armor. Damn right I'd give
>them a warning over that and unempower them if they kept it
>up. Ever read the code?


Yeah, espeically the part about upholding and respecting the Law. You know, where you get THE DEATH PENALTY for stealing bread if you're starving to death or stealing 2 coppers off of someone.

This is a realism vrs. gameplayability issue and the current balance on killing neutral mobs, thus far, was worked well.


>Yup. Gee, and there aren't any other replacements you could
>possibly find or go to a shop and buy.


Wow. You're telling me to buy EQ in a shop. Sorry, hoss, that speaks for itself.

Yes, there are always alternates, but why should goodies be shut out so utterly with stuff that's on neutral mobs?


>Play a neutral then.


Nah.


>Still not buying it, not only are there evil mobs you can
>regear off of, they are summonable, so you don't even have to
>walk around to them. Paladin's are absolutely the easiest
>class to play in the game as long as you can stay empowered.


But yet they should be "hard to play" according to you a few scant paraghaps down????


>Say it all you want, doesn't change my mind. Paladin's have a
>code, it is stringent for a reason. Play a neutral warrior if
>you aren't willing to follow it.


I'm fine with a Code, I love it, let's just clear up what's kosher and not kosher.


>>Also, in D+D I'd just kill the mother wyvern and set lord
>>tabershaw free, or just get a group of heroes to end the War
>>in Mortorn, but I can't do that here now can I?
>>
>>Suspension of belief swings both ways.
>>
>Finally, a valid point.


*gasp* You like me....you really, really like me! *swoon*


>Please tell me how to differentiate killing one or two nice
>guys out of sheer greed vs. killing many, and how it's okay to
>do as a lightwalker?


Re-equipping does not equal sheer greed. Yeah, it's a fuzzy issue, killing neutral mobs, but it's also done for OOC gameplay and balance.

Why else was there a healer in the Battlerager's shrine? Fuzzy, but needed for balance.

I mean, damn, do you really think a single anti-paladin or necro would be allowed in half of the cities in Thera??? In D+D these places only exist in secret or in uber-evil places like Thay.

But on a MUD, they need to practice somewhere.


>Again, that barbarian doesn't attack until after you request,
>see above.


I refer my right honorable friend to the answers I gave some moments ago.


>300%? Maybe 100%, but as far as I'm concerned, Paladin's are
>supposed to be hard to play.


Once again, I refer my right honorable friend to the answers I gave some moments ago.


>Be happy I'm not an imm and haven't been you're patron. You
>would probably have been unempowered 5 times.


But I wasn't. Why?

Listen, before this de-evolves into a flame war, we've had this unspoken understanding about neutral mobs for a long time now. If it's supposed to be different and this isn't just one IMMs dissenting view, so be it.

I won't ever lay a hand on poor ol' Tarus again, if that's the new standard.

But I don't think so. It's not fair to make things so much easier for evils, Hero-Imms and Imms have done it, though not in excess, why should things not continue as they are?

Good-aligned communers have been taken to task for needlessly killing neutral NPCs in the past.

It's not one IMM's dissenting view.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Good-aligned communers have been taken to task for needlessly
>killing neutral NPCs in the past.
>
>It's not one IMM's dissenting view.
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Yeah, I realize that. I've never said it's open season on neutrals.

What my deal is, is that I've seen hero pallys killing elite guards and newbies killing taurus for re-equipping with no reprecussions, some of them becomming IMMS and Hero-IMMS. I've done it and have been virtued, tatooed myself.

It *seems* like Phaelim is saying these guys should of been unempowered and/or punished.

"Paladins and Neutrality"
"RE......so?"

Also, I've seen logs of wood elves pleading for their lives from some bard practicing on them (nedlessly killing) but I've never seen anyone taken to task for killing neutral mobs for basic re-equipping/ranking purposes (including myself), implying, to me anyways, that the latter is OK.

If it wasn't, Mortorn would of declared war on the Paladin's guild years ago. I don't even want to think about how many elite guards have dropped dead in the southern courtyard.

It's been ok for as long as I can remember.

Is it now wrong?

It happens a lot. If you guys want us to stop, um, ok, but half of the current pally heroes are gonna have to be unempowered.

Again, don't want to flame, just asking for clarity. Does strict RP win over playability? Are neutral mobs completely off-limits for ranking and EQ for lightwalkers?

I'm cool either way. I've done the whole, no to slaughter, yes to basic re-equipping/ranking and I love playing paladins, so if I'm ####ing up, I'll stop.

Will Taurus keep his bracers?

*organ music*

Will the butler no longer have to die for a key?

*louder organ music*

Will the elite guards survive to....stand around and do nothing for a few more centuries?

*very loud organ music*

Tune in next week........

I'm not flaming you, and in a lot of ways I agree 100% with you. Especially the part where many titled/tatted/immed players have done many if not all of the things you outline, without punishment, and presumably based on the outcomes, with reward.

This is one of those issues where my view is that of the polar extreme, and I realize that. If a particular imm tends to see things closer to my way than yours, I'm glad that I'm not standing too far out on an island all by myself

>I'm not flaming you, and in a lot of ways I agree 100% with
>you. Especially the part where many titled/tatted/immed
>players have done many if not all of the things you outline,
>without punishment, and presumably based on the outcomes, with
>reward.


Exactly. If one elite dwarf showed up at the paladin's guild in galadon, it would stop overnight.

Or better yet, if after killing the butler in the chessmaster's a little girl asked a paladin "Why did you kill my daddy?" it would *really* stop quick as hell.

Hasn't happened, though, the only time I've seen people get burned for it was when they got greedy or used them for pratice.


>This is one of those issues where my view is that of the polar
>extreme, and I realize that. If a particular imm tends to see
>things closer to my way than yours, I'm glad that I'm not
>standing too far out on an island all by myself


If we were playing D+D I'd agree fully, but I still maintain that certain allowances need to be made because this is a MUD.

Now how about that group hug?

At least as far as I'm concerned. A lightwalker should never kill a neutral sentient mob without a solid rp reason behind it, or if having done so, they should suffer great pangs of remorse.

That just means we'll have lots of upset dwarf paladins who just happened to find themselves "forced" to kill Ludan yet again for some weak reason. (Not aimed at any dwarf paladins in particular. Just Ludan is a good example of a victim of this stuff.)

Sure, if it is an accident, but in practice, most of these "accidents" would actually be intentional. I bet you'd never find a paladin doing this stuff whilst his or her patron imm is visible.

Well damn. I was looking forward to reempowering you at some point, really thought you had what it took to go the distance. You started off kind of shaky, and at one point I was thinking to myself "If this guy doesn't start to get it, I can't really make up a reason to empower him more." Then you kind of just got it, for the most part. For the neutral mob killing, I frown on any good killing a neutral mob period, but especially just to grab some spiffy gear. The dream I sent you was a warning not to do it again, and when you came to the shrine I was going to give you a little verbal beating and leave it at that. You really shocked me when you actually asked to be unempowered. I was literally just thinking "Wow, die-hard paladin." I liked it, wished you had followed through. Luck on the next and so on.

I was really confused with your religion at the start but I think I caught on after a while. The dream you sent me was really well done and you should've seen my face when it happened. I had no idea you were watching (Not that it should matter). Anyway I thought the dream was basically hinting that I wouldn't be empowered anymore, plus when you think about it, i'm supposed to protect the light, be a symbol of all that is good etc....so I shouldn't be just killing some guy because he has some good gear. I should've known better. Anyway I learned my lesson and I was ready to follow through with the consequences but the following twenty hours or so were pure torture getting my ass handed to me time and again, and having to basically flee;quaff teleportation if I wanted to live for more than twenty minutes.. I just couldn't take it anymore, the game is supposed to be fun and I didn't want to start hating the game by continuing with the character.
Thanks again and good luck.

Aww, it was fun interacting with you at the various points throughout your youth, and then into your much older times as well.
There were points where I just wanted to sit you down and really understand the ideals which drove you, but in all I thought you were pretty cool.

Good luck on your next!

I had fun with you too. You really stuck to your beliefs and I liked that. You could've wimped out after that situation but you stuck to your roleplay even if it didn't help you.
Good luck!

My favorite conversation with this character so far
was when cal and i were bsing and came up with calling
you olty, that just fit so well.

Asking for unempowerment was an awesome deed from my pov
seeking redemption would have put you at the top of the
list of cool players (again from my pov)

I was going to say something about RL intruding and such
and let you go at that, but real life was intruding with
the same stuff when hyk went down so pffft.

next time you do this (and you will each character I have
seen from you is better than the last, plus i am pretty
sure you have the cf 'bug' and can't really stop yet)
be sure to play it out until the character loses it's flavor
for you, then play a week longer. if it still sucks to play
delete. if real life intrudes (like exams) you know you have a
while before the character auto's.

oh and on eastern trust me if i had known you were that close i'd have stopped for some lay on hands or something.
i was running like mad, reverting is kind of a slow recovery thing so i had cast word before the reverting even started. Thanks for the thought though.

I had a blast during the times we ranked together. sorry about the
late shifting problem during that one fight. man that spell has a lot of lag on it. i still should have fled switched and come back in. but i really thought you had it.
(I'm pretty sure that was you that was with me then. was a while back)

Thanks for the kind words, it was kind of the same deal with Hykroln, but Hykroln was mad fun most of the time while being unempowered is just well...isn't. It was me that was with you when we I got killed by those two empires and you just barely got out. I didn't really care it was fun. I didn't pk enough with Oltrambel but I was planning on heroing before really getting into the fighting aspect. Too bad I never got that chance.
Good luck with Gli
Take care