Sun Jul 2 16:20:57 2017

At 6 o'clock AM, Day of Thunder, 10th of the Month of the Spring
on the Theran calendar Ghrimmli perished, never to return.

I thought I'd post a little something something given the attention around your issues, just to toss in my two cents and let you know how it worked out upstairs, since transparency is always a pretty good thing.

Preface: This is just my opinion and account, and shouldn't represent absolute facts, or the opinions of the other imms.


In general, I was a BIG fan of Ghrimmli. The fact that you ran a pretty popular contest really sealed the deal for me - so I pitched that minor reward for you.


But, I guess I should skip to the part that is making the biggest issue.

Kinslayer! First, Dwarves are particularly easy to get Kinslayer on compared to most of the other races. An elf killing elves tends to be evil, humans kill humans all the time, and most evil races don't particularly hold their own kin to a high standard. Dwarves, on the other hand, even specify in their helpfile ( http://www.carrionfields.net/help/race/dwarf.php) that they are viciously loyal to their kin. RP wise, dwarf kinship is a CLASSIC - so when a dwarf goes around killing dwarves, even per their own role, that puts them at odds (in my mind) in the same fashion as an elf killing goodies would.

Thus, when Ghrimmli jumped beyond fifty kin-kills, it started to get some attention. Once you started nearing a hundred, it got even more attention.

Kinslayer specifically was a title put on you to reflect this. But afterwards a few of us thought that it failed to represent the ‘totality’ of your character – your blacksmithing, herald rp, etc. And that you were more than just ‘some kinslayer’. Thus the title change. Little did we know when it happened, that the ‘kinslayer’ aspect of the title is what made kinship not work, so when we switched the title, we inadvertently made you able to use kinship again. The title, all the same, was meant to be in the kinslayer vein. We tried to shift it to better fit your role and view by making it ‘kingslayer’, but that was meant to be just as offensive to dwarves in general, thus their refusal to continue working with you on kinship related things. The fact that you didn’t think the title implied that is a bit confusing to me, but this was a good lesson for me in the future: don’t try to make it fun, try to make it blunt.

Then an option was thought of! What if we could make it so kinship can be stopped, BUT we could still customize the title? That’s when you noticed that you lost kinship ‘again’, though it should have never been returned to you in the first place. After some fun RP things, you seemed to finally be letting the dwarves be, so things were going to fall back to normal. But alas, you went for Ludan, and in the process, killed 3 dwarven flamers (none of which who are kings) along the way. That’s when, due to your betrayal of your dwarven heritage, you lost your specs: http://www.carrionfields.net/helpsearch.php?keywords=betrayer

I really enjoyed watching you RP it out somewhat afterwards, but it got a bit iffy.

Either way, I hope that clears some things up so you know what actually went down. I was otherwise a big fan of both Ghrimmli and Kaiden, and was rooting heavily for both – even digging the alternate dwarf-RP where you don’t give a heck about other dwarves.

I’m not aiming to get into an argument about it here or anything, just trying to be informative, so I doubt I’ll start a big ol’ reply chain.

Thanks for the fun

-Ish

I think some sort of warning a character that he's nearing a Betrayer status would be great (with referral to this helpfile). As we can't hold all the helpfiles in memory.

Oh didnt think it was anywhere near 100 (Can you give me the specific breakdown? Or shall I grep?) I knew I killed a bunch in the battlefield while levelling. Then outside of the Kinslayer thing maybe 2 others.

As I said else where, I am 100% ok with consequences for actions (Unfortunately that applies to you Imms, yeah yeah it was a #### up with the title change I get it, The REAL WORLD effect for Ghrimmli though was Dwarves accept he killed the kings, and thats the end of it, LIKE IT OR NOT THAT IS HOW IT PLAYED OUT! RATHER THAN RP AROUND THAT IN THIS RP GAME< YOU(Not you specifically but could be) 'fixed' THE PROBLEM, WHEN I POINTED IT OUT, IMM SHRUG, CLOSE RANKS) Jeeves shrugs, puts those areas back on the back burner, deletes his heros, leaves the game.

I'm not 100% ok with Kinslayer affect getting slapped on me twice unanounced, it just puts two dwarves in a room, one of whom would trade previously with the other, and now doesnt. That aside, I totally got it when that Imm said this how it went down upstairs, totally 100% ok with that. From Ghrimmlis perspective though, it was just dwarves hating on him that didnt hate on him yesteday, Ludan actively tried to kill Ghrimmli at multiple points in his life, you dont get a free pass on murdering, retribution is at hand. But Flamer dwarves arent Kings? Wtf, its in the Kings Stronghold, its standing between Ghrimmli and the king and it refused to give him the Key!, its a threat there are no doubts here.
Either way, punishing him like that for responding to his role, and Ludans direct attacks (Mortorn can declare was on Ghrimmli, but Ghrimmli has to eat a #### sandwich, its cool for other dwarves to straight up murder Ghrimmli? Looking at you Guildmaster? No a goodie dwarf sure maybe turn him neutral? A neutral dwarf though, you already took away Kinship, why does it need more punishment? Even forgecraft I could see to like a small degree.

So if you want to keep playing the Kinslayer card when it makes no sense to do so, I think its time Dwarves get -30 exp from killing other Dwarves not 900. Like if its equivalent to an Elf Killing goodies?!! What the #### is this ####, but sure lets go that way with our rp why not. Never mind the fact that Ghrimmli saw the dwarven kingdoms as corrupt and a waste of dwarven energies and lives etc. Its cool, because you know what ever.


Changes to Kinship that need to happen : If its cursed you can kinship it in the same way you can request it with requester edge, no IFS no BUTS. You have to lower those prices as well to next to 0 for keys and ####, sorry but if Dwarf Kinship is so strong, why ARE THEY ROBBING ME?!! PUNISHMENT FOR THEFT IS DEATH!! just saying

None of this is intended as a dig at you, the player. I liked watching Ghrimmli and I also enjoyed and/or respected your other characters.

But I don't want other people to get the idea that we're likely to utterly screw them over without warning.

I was the one who first spotted Ghrimmli killing dwarves in the Battlefield. I really loved his dwarfy role and description, with the burned-off beard, etc., so I decided to pop in and watch Ghrimmli and see if I could find an excuse to toss him some experience and maybe even start up a storyline.

Instead, I saw Ghrimmli killing a dwarf berserker. I wanted to warn him away from doing that and make sure he understood it was generally wrong for dwarves to be killing other dwarves for ranking. So I had the dwarf mobs he fought screaming, expressing outrage, and calling him a "betrayer" and "Kinslayer." It was not subtle at all - anyone any the area would have heard the five or six yells. I even had a dwarf berserker he was fighting ask, "Why are you doing this to your kin!?"

Ghrimmli's response was literally: "Aye ok pal"

And then he just kept mowing 'em down like it was nothing for a while. Once the dwarves started redirecting toward him in combat, he suggested the group should go somewhere else. But there was never any concern or discomfort on his part about the fact that he was killing kin for sport.

This was at the beginning of Ghrimmli's life -- LONG (more than 100 played hours) before he saw any actual consequences.

Ghrim had a ton of chances to make amends, change his ways, or just stop killing so many dwarves.

I totally get that Ghrim eventually had reason to be angry at Ludan or whatever. But the idea that Ghrim can kill anyone and everyone who gets in the way of his killing the good and celebrated king of his embattled people doesn't sound very dwarvish -- or even neutral-aligned, for that matter.

So, long story short, I don't see how anyone could be legitimately surprised by what ultimately happened.

Another note to add: Playing for a while without specs at hero sure would suck, and I know the idea of seeking redemption sounds like a slog. But I think if a character really goes for it, redemption/restoration is very possible (and probably much quicker/less painful than it would have been in the past if it's done well).

Good luck with your next - I think you have a ton of potential to make an amazing and well-rounded character who makes a huge impact on Thera's story, and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

None of this is intended as a dig at you, the player. I liked watching Ghrimmli and I also enjoyed and/or respected your other characters.

But I don't want other people to get the idea that we're likely to utterly screw them over without warning.

I was the one who first spotted Ghrimmli killing dwarves in the Battlefield. I really loved his dwarfy role and description, with the burned-off beard, etc., so I decided to pop in and watch Ghrimmli and see if I could find an excuse to toss him some experience and maybe even start up a storyline.

Instead, I saw Ghrimmli killing a dwarf berserker. I wanted to warn him away from doing that and make sure he understood it was generally wrong for dwarves to be killing other dwarves for ranking. So I had the dwarf mobs he fought screaming, expressing outrage, and calling him a "betrayer" and "Kinslayer." It was not subtle at all - anyone any the area would have heard the five or six yells. I even had a dwarf berserker he was fighting ask, "Why are you doing this to your kin!?"

Ghrimmli's response was literally: "Aye ok pal"

^^^^ Cool, dwarves on the Battlefield have been dead for 10,000 years, Doesnt matter what you do to them, they are still dead. Having said that, I acknowledge you guys switching into mobs and ####ing with my ranking group, fun times, thanks for the efforts. Ghrimmlis response is based on the fact its a ghost, and it gives him 900 exp (If the gods had a problem with it, they shouldnt mechanically reward it so highly, that needs fixing immediately)

Following on from this, Ghrimmli started to avoid killing dwarves, if there were other ways to achieve his goals, he would do that. He didnt avoid killing any other species or align.

Ghrim had a ton of chances to make amends, change his ways, or just stop killing so many dwarves.

^^^^ So totally did this

First Kinslayer - I literally log on one day, 40 or so hours since I last killed a dwarf, and find I am kinslayer - Out of the blue - Sphere fire - role entry - Kingslayer - do some kingslaying, get mob death from guildmaster, Avatar of Rashael turns up, consider pincering avatar of Rashael, let it live instead.

Kingslayer title is applied - I still need dwarf items etc, I kill a dwarf (singular), and then notice the most amazing thing, I am no longer kinslayer (Mechanically I get you guys ####ed up with a title). But from an RP perspective, I'm the ####ing King of the Dwarves now! Killed their kings, freed them from never ending war and oppression they love me (AN actual Player DWARF turns up at this point and I'm worried I'm gonna have to pk a dwarf, but it turns out he is inspired for the same reasons as Ghrimmli, its not just Ghrimmli now, its a CAUSE), check it This guy is giving me his lightning axe etc.

40-50 Maybe more hours pass, I log on, after doing something retarded in ST the night before (dropped about 4 con) Have to replace about 6 pieces of gear, and I measured the gear that I didnt die for (heh it took me a while to figure it out and Im still not 100% sure ) as stuff I could kinship trade for, get to some dwarf, with an item to trade, Kinslayer - Again out of the blue (this is when you guys 'fixed' the error)


Another note to add: Playing for a while without specs at hero sure would suck, and I know the idea of seeking redemption sounds like a slog. But I think if a character really goes for it, redemption/restoration is very possible (and probably much quicker/less painful than it would have been in the past if it's done well).
^^^ This wasnt an option without compromising Ghrimmlis role/Character/ethos/persona - Its not that the idea of redemption seems a slog in Ghrimmlis case me as a powergamey ####, sit around and rp/write role updates for all those juicy imm exps, and my specs back SOUNDS AWESOME BRO, WHERE DO I SIGN UP - For Ghrimmli though, gods were ####, dangerous, but ####. I 100% felt you were like oh this guy has loss etc I totally want in on that action, Ghrimmli wanting nothing to do with that, so you keep hitting him with the Loss train (CF Gods are omnipotent right?) so first its Kinship, then Rashael follower harassing me, eventually looting me of dwarf only gear (Which yay I have to kill more dwarves to get back), Its not enough though, Ghrimmli doesnt give two ####s for you religion. So next thing Ghrimmli notices his Forgecraft is gone. At that point you just killed the character, then at the same time you nuked specs neither of which really makes sense (But if its hard and fast dwarven rp has to be this way or else, cool - Please make the mechanical changes I have highlighted to facilitate that). No specs means I cant effectively be any where near anyone dangerous, so its off to silent tower to con death for me. I was also TOTALLY happy doing that, but then I made you aware of your #### up, and your answer(Immland, and repeated by you and Ish) was 'meh, it was technical error'. Retconning someones life is not cool while the person is still alive guys, COME ON< MAN UP AND ACCEPT IT

Good luck with your next - I think you have a ton of potential to make an amazing and well-rounded character who makes a huge impact on Thera's story, and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

All my characters are amazing and well-rounded and make a huge impact on thera's story, there wont be another character from me for 3-4 years, if at all.

See ya in 6 months

Gr

Which part is power gamey?

The part where you said on the other forum that you rolled Kaiden and Ghrimmli to make sure Vortalis & Co. had the best opportunity to do whatever it is you wanted them to do.

Or did you speak to him?



The part where you said on the other forum that you rolled Kaiden and Ghrimmli to make sure Vortalis & Co. had the best opportunity to do whatever it is you wanted them to do.


Or do you just mean in your opinion that this is power gamey?

But I don't want to really sidetrack your death thread.

EDIT: And no, I am not Lhydia.

thanks for your input?

You're basically saying that your character realized it was 'the past' and they weren't 'real' dwarves so it was okay and you got 900 xp so IMMs had to have been okay with it....like...you're saying in Back to the Future it would be cool and fine if Marty McFly went back to his home town with an AK-47 and just committed a mass murder at the diner and high school and dance and everything because it was in the past? lolwut

THEY ARENT REAL DWARVES YOU SEE. What?

Also did you really have 3 support characters for the same exploration groups and forge weapons to make your hell trips with other characters of yours easier? Are we at the point where our permas have perma support prep chars for pre trip ranking/gathering? yuck

You're basically saying that your character realized it was 'the past'

Right right, so characters dont know its the past? Or they do know its the past? I mean its NOT really the past because people you kill there, have no effect on the Present.

Right except if Marty Mcfly makes alterations to his universe with said AK47 there is an affect for him when he returns to the future.

But lets focus on the 900 exp - What is EXP for Characters? Like a rush of knowledge? Mechanically I am rewarded very highly for killing this Dwarf, but if my Kinship bonds are so strong, this makes no sense? I mean I should feel guilt and remorse and -30 exp with every kill.


THEY ARENT REAL DWARVES YOU SEE. What? - Well who is to say that all those dwarves didnt run off to become duergar? How long ago was the past at this point. Is it still murder if the person has been dead for 10000 years? Are they cursed? Trapped their for eternity? Here let me free them from this sorcerers magic.



Also did you really have 3 support characters for the same exploration groups and forge weapons to make your hell trips with other characters of yours easier? Are we at the point where our permas have perma support prep chars for pre trip ranking/gathering? yuck

^^^ How would that even work? Do you even Forgecraft bro? I dont know about you man, these were some comeback characters for me after years away. Looking at the playerbase, watching how you all log in and out. I'm really surprised there is still any kind of game at all. The tiers of ooc connections over AIM etc all knowing who is playing who and ####.... Oh sorry this was you being disgusted at me for just playing the game

Yes it is.

What you're doing isn't digging up some 10000-year old bones and then crunch them in a bonegrinder. You go back to a time where they were still alive, and you kill them.

You cut their life short at whatever age they were at that time, whereas otherwise they may have lived to 250 or however much the dwarves life expectancy is.

The past is not a dream-like world and it's not ghosts or virtual dwarves. Those are just as real as your character's contemporaries.

Hell, there was a dwarf PC who was born in the past. Does it mean it would be okay to murder him, too?

Saying that killing people in the past areas doesn't have an effect in the present is a poor excuse. If I kill that paladin mob with the nodrop weapon that I can't request, he reappears in 3 minutes, but does that mean it's not murder, IC?

Yes it is.

What you're doing isn't digging up some 10000-year old bones and then crunch them in a bonegrinder. You go back to a time where they were still alive, and you kill them.
^^^ But they are already dead?



You cut their life short at whatever age they were at that time, whereas otherwise they may have lived to 250 or however much the dwarves life expectancy is.
^^^ Nah all these dudes die on the battlefield today, otherwise killing them would have consequences in the future it does not.


The past is not a dream-like world and it's not ghosts or virtual dwarves. Those are just as real as your character's contemporaries.
^^^ So they can follow me out of the past?


Hell, there was a dwarf PC who was born in the past. Does it mean it would be okay to murder him, too?
^^^ I dont know, what cabal is he?



Saying that killing people in the past areas doesn't have an effect in the present is a poor excuse.
^^^ Its not an excuse its a mechanical fact


If I kill that paladin mob with the nodrop weapon that I can't request, he reappears in 3 minutes, but does that mean it's not murder, IC?
^^^ I dont know, do we ever really kill anything? Maybe you just knocked him out and robbed him? I bet you get -30 exp though if you kill him to tell you that killing him is a bad idea.


Just to be clear, because there seems to be some confusion, Ghrimmli was an arms dealer, who traded to both sides in any potential conflict, nothing personal just business, he fought in many wars, on both sides as a mercenary, nothing personal just business.

TO be clear I am 100% ok with the Kinslayer stuff, (I am questioning the state of those dwarfs in the past though), what I am not ok with was how/when each kinslayer flag was applied, how their was 0 understanding from the Imms involved that a physical change to the entire dwarven people randomly being applied twice in confrontational ways, out of the blue might cause a huge hole in the characters life, following that up with Spec loss, again I'm ok with the punishment - The line used as an echo made no sense to the context of the character.

It didnt affect Ghrimmli as far as my personal goals for the character were concerned, it meant I could no longer rp as a blacksmith, it meant I couldnt host any further tournaments without people figuring out the spec loss and mauling the #### out of me later. It meant I couldnt hang out in cities, or even the Inn. As it happened when the Immortal approached me to discuss it, I had just figured out the final piece of the puzzle for ST (probably), I heard their explanation, it made total sense to me from a player perspective I just couldnt play Ghrimmli in any other way, and still be Ghrimmli Rather than stick to the RP they themselves created by accident, they just fixed it Its cool I think everyone is much clearer on how to carrionfields now, I sure am.

>Yes it is.
>
>What you're doing isn't digging up some 10000-year old bones
>and then crunch them in a bonegrinder. You go back to a time
>where they were still alive, and you kill them.
>^^^ But they are already dead?
>
>
>
>You cut their life short at whatever age they were at that
>time, whereas otherwise they may have lived to 250 or however
>much the dwarves life expectancy is.
>^^^ Nah all these dudes die on the battlefield today,
>otherwise killing them would have consequences in the future
>it does not.
>
>
>The past is not a dream-like world and it's not ghosts or
>virtual dwarves. Those are just as real as your character's
>contemporaries.
>^^^ So they can follow me out of the past?
>
>
>Hell, there was a dwarf PC who was born in the past. Does it
>mean it would be okay to murder him, too?
>^^^ I dont know, what cabal is he?
>
>
>
>Saying that killing people in the past areas doesn't have an
>effect in the present is a poor excuse.
>^^^ Its not an excuse its a mechanical fact
>
>
>If I kill that paladin mob with the nodrop weapon that I can't
>request, he reappears in 3 minutes, but does that mean it's
>not murder, IC?
>^^^ I dont know, do we ever really kill anything? Maybe you
>just knocked him out and robbed him? I bet you get -30 exp
>though if you kill him to tell you that killing him is a bad
>idea.
>
>
>Just to be clear, because there seems to be some confusion,
>Ghrimmli was an arms dealer, who traded to both sides in any
>potential conflict, nothing personal just business, he fought
>in many wars, on both sides as a mercenary, nothing personal
>just business.
>
>TO be clear I am 100% ok with the Kinslayer stuff, (I am
>questioning the state of those dwarfs in the past though),
>what I am not ok with was how/when each kinslayer flag was
>applied, how their was 0 understanding from the Imms involved
>that a physical change to the entire dwarven people randomly
>being applied twice in confrontational ways, out of the blue
>might cause a huge hole in the characters life, following that
>up with Spec loss, again I'm ok with the punishment - The line
>used as an echo made no sense to the context of the character.
>
>
>It didnt affect Ghrimmli as far as my personal goals for the
>character were concerned, it meant I could no longer rp as a
>blacksmith, it meant I couldnt host any further tournaments
>without people figuring out the spec loss and mauling the ####
>out of me later. It meant I couldnt hang out in cities, or
>even the Inn. As it happened when the Immortal approached me
>to discuss it, I had just figured out the final piece of the
>puzzle for ST (probably), I heard their explanation, it made
>total sense to me from a player perspective I just couldnt
>play Ghrimmli in any other way, and still be Ghrimmli
>Rather than stick to the RP they themselves created by
>accident, they just fixed it Its cool I think everyone is
>much clearer on how to carrionfields now, I sure am.
>

Christ, stop being so dense.

You're killing them because they give decent XP, and your weak, after-the-fact rationalizations aren't fooling any one.

If, by some chance, an immortal had sent you an echo on each change, you still would have found something else to gripe about.

Christ, stop being so dense.
^^^ I put forward perfectly good rationale for them being killable, regardless of whether they are or arent, its irrelevant to what happened MUCH MUCH LATER.



No I made that justification prior to killing them. Also while I was killing them.

You're killing them because they give decent XP, and your weak, after-the-fact rationalizations aren't fooling any one.

^^^ Again 0 ####s were actually given about Kinslayer


If, by some chance, an immortal had sent you an echo on each change,
^^^ Well it would probably have skewed my RP in a whole different direction, and it would probably have saved about 7 dwarf lifes and my specs


What is my gripe ?

They are not dead at the moment you are killing them. And not all of them die on the battlefield. Even if they do, it's not kosher to hasten their deaths - if anything a dwarf would rather try and prevent those deaths by fighting on their side.

I agree though that dwarves should get negative xp for killing dwarves. They are really a special case where kinslaying matters almost as much as good killing good.

And do something about Dern because what sense does it make to place most coveted dwarf gear on a mob that dwarves aren't supposed to kill? Unless it's just there for duergar.

Dont forget ludans no rem/ no drop ring

Keep your blinders on and deflect as much as possible, it should really help you resolve your issues futuristically.

I quit you.

I dunno I think its as valid an argument as any - The Imms see them as dwarfs though 100% can confirm.

your guildmaster doesn't care if you are mowing down the dwarves, he's going to reward you for the challenge.

other dwarves care. pcs care. imms care. those dwarves care.

but your guildmaster doesn't.

on the other side of the coin, alignment matters because it is divine punishment that preempts guildmaster learning.

Mechanically killing dwarves is very rewarding for dwarves.

Many life stories end in misery and tragedy. It's like that.

Exactly, Deleting is a valid RP choice, Deleting and using your Gear to bribe people to murder Dwarfs in Akan and Mortorn is just the kind of thing Ghrimmli would do

>
>Ghrim had a ton of chances to make amends, change his ways, or
>just stop killing so many dwarves.
>
>^^^^ So totally did this
>
>First Kinslayer - I literally log on one day

Let me take us back to the day you were titled...
****Flashback sequence****


I spoke with the higher ups about how many dwarves you killed without remorse and we came to the conclusion that you couldn't keep doing what you were doing without a kinslayer flag. And within minutes of getting the title, you went out on a dwarf killing spree where you would have nearly doubled your current dwarf kills at the rate you were burning through them.

To clarify for all, that is not a good example of making amends.

I spoke with the higher ups about how many dwarves you killed without remorse and we came to the conclusion that you couldn't keep doing what you were doing without a kinslayer flag. And within minutes of getting the title, you went out on a dwarf killing spree where you would have nearly doubled your current dwarf kills at the rate you were burning through them.


^^^^ Please post a log of your interaction with Ghrimmli, in this instance.

To clarify for all, that is not a good example of making amends.
^^^^ Please tell me what the hours difference was between when you first interacted with Ghrimmli in regards to Kinslaying switching to mobs etc, and when Kinslayer was applied (first time).



Again zero ####s given here for kinslayer title, kind of appropriate for a neutral mercenary, arms dealer.

gr

Its you ####s that are missing the point though.

I dont know how clear I can be, I am ok with Kinslayer (so anything about killing dwarves in the past or anything like that is totally moot), first time, I am ok with Kinslayer second time.

I am not ok with the way kinslayer was applied first time, it was just well garbage (especially given the decreased volume of dwarf slaying)
My Kingslaying completely unrepentant dwarf slaying rampage, and then king slaying rampage, also ok with that, Even better I get a title thats relevant to the rp, nice one! Also, these dwarves now kinship me all of them love me, great, They see me as kin yo? After I killed their kings, thats great, so like they are down with it! All of this is great!
Second application of kinslayer, again super lame, not even a notification of it. Still kind of ok, then you attack me with out of area mob, bad king leaving the siege to have a wank? nice. Cool but then you give me betrayer flag for trying to kill a mob thats killing me? Or his soldiers what ever.

I didnt even delete then!!!!!!!!! Jesus ####ing christ, only when I learn what happened upstairs and you triple #### me over, with like 0 understanding, or RP, no apology, nothing, just ahah we made a error, but we fixed it lol!!


####ING IDIOTS

gr

?

Just kidding.

PS This whole thread is why Ghrimriddor (and Brondalorm to an extent) valued a fellow dwarf's life above all (even another goodie).

It's also why I used to bitch out all the village neutral dwarves for killing Dern lol.

Dude, I totally get that angle, and all dwarfs of all players from now on shall all follow this single doctrine, the gods have spoken.

Kinship basically exists because they needed racial request to balance out dwarves ingrained special bonds. Eventually they expanded it.

Also even if you viewed the battlefield mobs as ghosts killing dwarf ghosts would still be something a dwarf would give pause to.

I'm giving a lot of slack here, because I thought Kinship was unique to dwarfs - Kinship exists so goodie dwarves can request items from Neutral dwarves and avoid killing said mob (I believe that was the initial reasoning)


I dont know how clear I can be, and I guess its difficult because you dont really know. I am 100% ok with the consequences of my actions, I wasnt cool with logging in one day with no echoes and no real connection to anything I had done to have my title changed to Kinslayer like if you are online to make a title change, you can relate it to something that happened directly or what ever. Now I chose what I thought was an appropriate response for a neutral dwarf, Kinslayer is not a good thing right? So people calling me kinslayer are pretty much going to die. Following on from that, I had the fight with the dwarven kings etc (All of this was great), Everything in between was good, Ghrimmli made an oath that if any dwarf struck him, he would kill a dwarf for each blow. (Pretty sure even now, I still have Dwarfs left over). Following this, Ghrimmli gets the Kingslayer title - In doing so, it removed Kinslayer flag.

This meant all dwarfs then saw Ghrimmli as Kin, supporting/accepting his actions as the Kingslayer. As evidenced by so many kinship trades. (This is an unexpected benefit of the title change) Ghrimmlis role and rp grows from this, he meets some real dwarfs (players) and they are down with the kingslaying too you know because the mob has the BiS ring for dwarves but only goodies with an edge can get it.


Skip on half of silent tower, and an event with Immortals present and a shiny new edge. I log on, go to trade an item with a dwarf, and get Kinslayer message again. Same dwarves, following same kings decree? Twice in a row? Out of the blue? Like no ####ing idea where this is coming from. -I Understand you guys figured out how to kinslayer me with title. With no echos or #### like that, Ghrimmli doesnt know before hand that he is walking into a castle that hates him suddenly. Ludan tries to kill Ghrimmli


Skip forward a couple of hours, Ghrimmli and Marrin go to kill Ludan. Kill some flamers on the way in (which Ish is saying was the trigger for it) lose specs / forgecraft

Skip forward again and Imm explains said mistake, confusion, without acknowledging the jarring inconsistencies and is like suck it and see, so I said no thank you sir.

nil

Hahahahahahaha so funnny, hahahahhaahaha what a joke the whole thing is..... How dare you stand by RP in an RP game!

gr

That makes me very sad as a tribunal

Not everyone has kinship. If you felt it betrayed then you remove kinship ability. Yes you did it then returned it. That is on you. Stripping his specs makes no sense. Dwarves can align against him. That is cool. But you guys take certsin things to far. Do what you want with the angle that this dwarf is detached. Maybe he has a morale flaw from the isolation? But removing specs is too much with no good reason other than you are all too lazy to follow up with the rather chaotic dwarf. Booting someone from herald or a cabal is also not proper (not saying you did) because unless everyone in that cabal never killed a dwarf there is no real justification.

As for the sub thread about guards. Turn them neutral. That is the answer.

Seeing things escalate this far is the reason I refuse to play. Looks like y'all having a great time.

NT

But the amount you cried IC as kaer then on the forums was enough for me to think you annoying. I've played suicidal warriors but I don't find them fun with various roles every time.

And I'm sorry for killing you.

I'm glad at least one other person sees some thing.


Also on a side note with Kaiden I'm totally ok with getting kicked from Maran, if it really is one mob and you are done, I was lucky to evade detection for so long. If I had known that though, I would have deleted the instant I killed first goodie mob at like 30 hours or what ever.

I don't read forums much b/c but I will bite and see if you get it.

We are actual gods! *gasp* !? I know right?

We do not track 100% of 100% of characters. We catch things as we catch them. Which is why you had gaps in your timeline. You should have been kinslayer without pause. You were given a title because we wanted it to reflect that you were more than just a kinslayer. Side effect to that was kinslayer dropped unintentionally. When the error was found you got it back.

You lost your specs and forgecraft because that is what happens when you continuously betray/malign to the core principles of a chosen race, class, align, or ethos. That consiquence has been around for decades. If you blindly chose to ignore that possibility, thats on you. You made your bed, now have your cake too! (Wait, what?)

It was a good role and was fun, but Role is not a shield from negative effects. Another recent example of this is the paladin role that turned his back on the gods... and tried to keep communing (praying) supplications to heavens! What? Those two things don't align...

End post... I'm not going to grammar check it or review it in anyway because I am perfect!

You had more than one good kill. ...

Kaiden:
Yeah absolutely, like I said never had that issue before, like its never come up (Not sure how many goodies I killed with Dracovious), didnt realise the penalty was so fierce, but I'm 100% ok with it, like didnt even argue ic, would totally have deleted after the first one.

We do not track 100% of 100% of characters. We catch things as we catch them. Which is why you had gaps in your timeline. You should have been kinslayer without pause.
^^^ I was not though


You were given a title because we wanted it to reflect that you were more than just a kinslayer. Side effect to that was kinslayer dropped unintentionally.
^^^ Unintentionally creating rp angles for me, (I dont know why I am no longer kinslayer), also I am no longer kinslayer and I am King Slayer, seems like Its ok for me to kill Dwarf Kings.



When the error was found you got it back.
^^^ Great, this was just applied silently and I only found out about it when I went to kinship trade for avg 16 mace. Kinslayer effectively blocks off mortorn and akan without pass door. Which is the punishment it should deliver. Even attacking me with dwarven mobs is warranted.

You lost your specs and forgecraft because that is what happens when you continuously betray/malign to the core principles of a chosen race, class, align, or ethos. That consiquence has been around for decades. If you blindly chose to ignore that possibility, thats on you. You made your bed, now have your cake too! (Wait, what?)
^^^ Yeah wait what? I wasnt indiscriminately murdering dwarves, I was killing the ones I needed to kill. Neutral neutral king hating dwarf, goes to kill Dwarf king, thats trying to kill him. As far as my role is concerned, its 100% justified right? If you feel the betrayer flag was justified, thats great. I didnt make my bed though, you removed kinship and told me it was cool to kill Dwarf-Kings....you know like in my role.

I've never come across this particular issue with betrayer flag before, I think the changes I mentioned should be implemented for dwarves though - 30 exp for kills, and Dwarven Kinship buffed to request edge levels.


Overall there was a failure to link any of the kinslayer applications to anything I was doing, or had been doing, in recent times. Coupled with the fact Ghrimmli could kinship (as an unintentional reward) realistically I have to follow my role right? I mean I would have killed Ludan again regardless of being attacked or what not. Also application of betrayer flag was meh and didnt fit with Ghrimmlis rp up until that point, not sure how you could have done it differently. The point of all of my deletions was, You guys made a mistake, I rped around through the mistake for however many hours, you guys fix mistake, punish me for rping my role, double down on the punishment, removing all fun aspects from the character When I ask what? and goodguyimm explains what went down.... Like too busy being delighted you 'fixed' random issue, to give a #### about potential roleplay knock on and Funstick fall out

"We are actual gods! *gasp* !? I know right?"

No you arent, you are game administrators. CF's focus on providing continuous entertainment for staff via religions, sycophantic sucking up, in game cheerleading/antagonizing players, and this is my sandbox approach to game administration is pretty much the reason why we are where we are today.

Punish less, reward more. No matter how many of you tools are in agreement, you should never break a character to the point the only choice they have is delete/delete.

Killing other dwarves is a bad rp move, you shouldnt mechanically players for it. You want to mark him kinslayer, go for it. You want to ass #### him every login with Ludan, go for it. You want to promote/reward other dwarves for killing him over and over, go for it.

Don't ruin the character because everyone else is in agreement about it being a bad RP move.


We are all grown ups now, not respecting other peoples time and energy because its bad rp is a sure fire way of continuing to lose players.

I'll see myself out.

NT

You shouldn't be punished to severity for following your roll. This game claims RP, but doesn't allow blossoming with characters. I get there should be punishments, dwarves don't like those who betray their kin, so keep with that punishment to actively send mercenaries to kill the dwarf.

You take skills away because he kills dwarves, but last time I checked, you don't just forget something you've known and studied/practiced hard because you stabbed someone in the face. A blacksmith doesn't lose his skill at smithing because he killed another person.

Those punishments were beyond OOC unless you RP'd some way that the God's punish the folly of this dwarf for his kin betrayel that they took away his memories from him that he would be talentless with crafting weapons and knowing his guild he has spent many of years studying in.

It's your sandbox, and if you wanna throw sand in the faces of the other kids, it's your choice but just because a dwarf hates other dwarves and perhaps is a murderous type, he doesn't forget how to use the teachings that gave him the capability of doing that.

If we are all grown ups, then we shouldn't need to wear kiddie gloves and toe around the fact that actions have consequences. While the reward to punishment ratio still isn't perfect, its certainly a lot closer to it recently than it has been in years past.

Do I think the betrayer thing was a bit heavy, sure. Losing forgecraft would totally make more sense to me, as its a betrayal of his dwarven heritage blah blah. Either way I don't really think the end result would have been any different than it was here.

Trying to repent for blacksmithing is something Ghrimmli might do

Delete/Delete is the players decision. Some people have tougher skin and more determination with regards to their character than others. There are people that lose one part of their set and they delete. As if every moment up until they got that piece of equipment was a waste of their time. If everyone gets mollycoddled over their own subjective pet peeves that push them delete this game will be much less fun in an awful hurry. In this particular case I think that a mistake was made, and that was just taking kinship without an explanation or even word of mention. A quick 'Hey we just removed kinship because you weren't supposed to get it back. It was an issue with the title change, but it is fixed now. You weren't supposed to get it back." would have told the player that oh, hey, the imms don't actually think the dwarves are back on my side. It likely would have tempered many of the other complaints as well.

Still, delete delete was not the only choice. Not long ago I was thinking of playing an odd race/align hook, going outside of the normal align perameters for the race. I sent a note to the imms and waited. Someone talked to me about it and explained up front that if I did this I would get the betrayer flag and wouldn't have access to weapon specs or legacies. They also said that while possible there would be no guarantee that I ever do get them. I was very tempted to play it anyway, just because the concept was so fun. When I have a bit more experience under my belt I intend to revisit the character, even if it turns out to be an up hill climb for their entire life. There were some great characters that started out as betrayer and worked their way back to their core class powers. It was the gnome fort ranger that gave me the inspiration to go off the map in the first place. It's not as easy as just rolling up another, I'll admit, but that is the cost of being so unique.

Besides, the imms gave plenty of warning in this circumstance. It wasn't just an "Oh this guy killed some dwarves, alright lets load up the bum rape cannon", they gave many in character warnings that the dwarves that he was killing didn't think it was right that one of their kinsmen was brining death to their door.

Edit: Typo in the subject.

Imagine someone chops off your arms and legs and leaves you in a desert in a pit with carnivorous crabs with a "blow up" button that you can push with your nose.

Pushing it will be your own decision.

How about we imagine you were just giving a "blow-up" button with multiple safety switches and you chose to flip them one by one. After you flipped one of them it switched back off because of odd factors that had no relation to the bomb. So, you proceeded to flip it again and then push the button! BOOM!

After the red mists settles you find you no longer are able do what you used to. Do you go seek out a kingdom of evil duergar to help you re-learn that which the bomb had taken? Do you go into the silent tower and possibly find lost knowledge? Do you warn others of the effects of the bomb, and atone for choosing to blow yourself up? Do you commit suicide with another bomb that you push with your nose because you're no longer the star quarterback for your high school? Do blame it on society? Do you say, "Hey, there shouldn't be so few safety switching on that bomb? I'm going to demand there be 20 safety switches!"? Do you say, "Hmm, I guess that didn't work how I intended, I won't make that mistake again."? Et Cetera!

I barely reviewed my post this time before I posted it! I can't be held responsible for you not being in my head and understanding exactly what I'm thinking. Have fun!

How about we imagine you were just giving a "blow-up" button with multiple safety switches and you chose to flip them one by one. After you flipped one of them it switched back off because of odd factors that had no relation to the bomb. So, you proceeded to flip it again and then push the button! BOOM!

^^^ Except in my case, I flipped the switch and it said 'BOMB DEACTIVATED - HAVE A NICE DAY KINGSLAYER' the Bomb was then put in a cupboard for 40 years, then one day I opened the cupboard, and it started blinking 'BOMB ACTIVATED' Huh thats weird, Better deactivate it like last time!!! OH BOOOM I guess that didnt work.

After the red mists settles you find you no longer are able do what you used to.

Do you go seek out a kingdom of evil duergar to help you re-learn that which the bomb had taken?
^^^ Gonna relearn my arms and legs? What? Do you just shrug, and ignore all of the bombs effects and just continue like the bomb never affected you in the first place? Because the bomb makers are ####wits?
?
^^^ Oh wait
Do you warn others of the effects of the bomb, and atone for choosing to blow yourself up?
^^^ Pretty sure there can be no mistaking the immortals intentions here.


Do you commit suicide with another bomb that you push with your nose because you're no longer the star quarterback for your high school?
^^^ Not sure I get this reference


Do blame it on society? Do you say, "Hey, there shouldn't be so few safety switching on that bomb?
^^^ Hey there shouldnt be any safety switches on the bomb, in fact they should just blow up instantly, so when people first encounter the bomb they can just reroll at 5 hours or what ever instead of 170



I'm going to demand there be 20 safety switches!"? Do you say, "Hmm, I guess that didn't work how I intended, I won't make that mistake again."? Et Cetera!
^^^ My comments aside, can you do any of the things you mentioned with no arms and legs? No? cool

^^^ Except in my case, I flipped the switch and it said 'BOMB DEACTIVATED - HAVE A NICE DAY KINGSLAYER' the Bomb was then put in a cupboard for 40 years, then one day I opened the cupboard, and it started blinking 'BOMB ACTIVATED' Huh thats weird, Better deactivate it like last time!!! OH BOOOM I guess that didnt work.

Let me break it down - and this is completely from what I have seen.
1) Your first safety switch went off when you were leveling off of dwarfs and were talked to IC - summation was you didn't care.

2) Your second safety switch went off when you go hit with Kinslayer "40 hours later" as you said. Warning you that you are doing things against your own race and that is bad for a dwarf. You proceeded to double down and kill the dwarf kings and more (per your role entry).

3) Because Imms liked your Role/RP/PC interactions (albeit a very bad dwarf that will have consequences) want to be rewarded with a title. Your role addition talked about how you went on a killing spree of dwarves when you got kinslayer, and specifically you hunted down all the dwarven kings! So you were titled with Kingslayer. Which an equivalent example would that the Unibomber got a nifty title too, but that doesn't mean people liked what he was doing. Dwarfs still didn't like what you were doing!

The side effect to that title was kinslayer safety switch fell down and you took that to mean you were now king of dwarves. You cry that you should have had interaction that told you were still kinslayer, well, no one told you were the king either. You drew conclusions inaccurately. Example being, just because the tax man gave you a refund 100 times larger than what you should get doesn't mean it was actually your or that you deserve it. Because, oh wait, you didn't even pay taxes!

So you proceeded to kill more dwarves and do kinship - then switch was tripped (I.E. fixed). Unibomber is still mailing off his yummy packages!

You didn't open a harmless cupboard. You were murdering your own race. You continued to kill them because you IC and OOC didn't care. The dwarves still cared even if you didn't. BOOM goes the dynamite! You are a betrayer to your own race.

-----

After the red mists settles you find you no longer are able do what you used to.

Do you go seek out a kingdom of evil duergar to help you re-learn that which the bomb had taken?
^^^ Gonna relearn my arms and legs? What? Do you just shrug, and ignore all of the bombs effects and just continue like the bomb never affected you in the first place? Because the bomb makers are ####wits?
?

> You didn't lose an arms or a legs. Those flaws somewhat exist though and you weren't given them. You were not incapacitated or invalid. You could still act. You lost your specs and forgecraft. You still have lots of skills that could have allowed you do any of the options I spoke of. The bomb was brutal, but not unrecoverable.



Do you warn others of the effects of the bomb, and atone for choosing to blow yourself up?

^^^ Pretty sure there can be no mistaking the immortals intentions here.

Our intentions are that you play a game where there are consequences for actions. That has always been the case. Good or bad there are consequences. Bad choice was dwarf killing dwarf = Kinslayer. Good choice was good roleplaying as a horrible dwarf = Titled along the lines of what the bad dwarf is doing. Bad choice = still killing dwarfs = Betrayer of your race.

Now don't mistake the separation of categorizes here. You were excellently roleplaying a dwarf merc that didn't care about being a dwarf or their racial culture/history/way of life. That though, while great roleplaying, is antithetical to a dwarf. So you were dealt with according to the parameters established already in the game, I.E. kinslayer and betrayer.


Do you commit suicide with another bomb that you push with your nose because you're no longer the star quarterback for your high school?
^^^ Not sure I get this reference

>That analogy maybe too colloquial.


Do blame it on society? Do you say, "Hey, there shouldn't be so few safety switching on that bomb?

^^^ Hey there shouldnt be any safety switches on the bomb, in fact they should just blow up instantly, so when people first encounter the bomb they can just reroll at 5 hours or what ever instead of 170.

>Characters are developed over time through action and choices. We don't blow you up right away, in the same way we don't instantly make you Emperor or High Herald. I exclude Thror's good aligned dwarf Commander of Battle quest as a one off.


I'm going to demand there be 20 safety switches!"? Do you say, "Hmm, I guess that didn't work how I intended, I won't make that mistake again."? Et Cetera!
^^^ My comments aside, can you do any of the things you mentioned with no arms and legs? No? cool

> Can "one" do anything after losing spec/song/communes/spells/etc? Yes, anything their imagination can conjurer (inside the parameters of CF).

Can Imms (I.E. our programmers) make changes betrayer? That's possible too...

Let me break it down - and this is completely from what I have seen.
1) Your first safety switch went off when you were leveling off of dwarfs and were talked to IC - summation was you didn't care.
^^^^ Sure, it would be bad rp (not dwarf rp) for my role to act differently. Its a battlefield, its a war, I fight on either side. We killed considerably less dwarves than anything else that day, so as far as I can see, I'm giving them plenty of mercy. Also before I was Kinslayer, you had dwarves attacking me. Yah thats right I went ahead and switched off autoassist, and you still attacked me So those particular dwarves, should be ok with being attacked forever now right? (Also over the course of my cf I played a bunch of other dwarves, and every single one was killed by a dwarf npc, so all dwarven mobs in thera are kinslayers)



2) Your second safety switch went off when you go hit with Kinslayer "40 hours later" as you said. Warning you that you are doing things against your own race and that is bad for a dwarf. You proceeded to double down and kill the dwarf kings and more (per your role entry).
^^^ Sure I just had a random dwarf calling me kinslayer out of the blue, better get to the bottom of this, best way to do that is speak to the king Oh the king is cursed? With -25 wisdom or what ever? Well I guess his decree is cursed too, Lads the only way to save the Dwarven people is to kill these cursed kings!!! #### if only I had some role update about that.



3) Because Imms liked your Role/RP/PC interactions (albeit a very bad dwarf that will have consequences) want to be rewarded with a title. Your role addition talked about how you went on a killing spree of dwarves when you got kinslayer, and specifically you hunted down all the dwarven kings! So you were titled with Kingslayer. Which an equivalent example would that the Unibomber got a nifty title too, but that doesn't mean people liked what he was doing. Dwarfs still didn't like what you were doing!
^^^^ This is inaccurate, thats what you are missing, Then I got the title Dwarf-King Slayer, and a FULL PARDON from all DWARVES in the LAND for my courageous slaying of the cursed dwarven kings, freeing the Dwarves of Akan and Mortorn from the moronic rulers of the past.



The side effect to that title was kinslayer safety switch fell down and you took that to mean you were now king of dwarves.- No the king of the dwarves thing was a joke, although given the way it ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN GAME, I Can see how it could be assumed via the divine right of might.




So you proceeded to kill more dwarves (a couple of dwarves for items they wouldnt kinship trade) and do kinship - then switch was tripped (I.E. fixed). Unibomber is still mailing off his yummy packages!
????? but he isnt, he occasionally anthraxs ludan, (Which everyone is ok with as per prior pardon, and a couple of other dwarves here and there ???? I mean you arent going to argue with the Kingslayer are you?



You didn't open a harmless cupboard. You were murdering your own race (No, I was killing dwarves with eq I neeeded)
You continued to kill them because you IC (Needed to replace my gear and they wouldnt kinship trade) and OOC didn't care.

The dwarves still cared even if you didn't. BOOM goes the dynamite! You are a betrayer to your own race.
^^^^ OH at this point here when you remove my specs/forgecraft - its a real SURPRISE!!!!! We care moment.

You are arguing your interpretation over and over. We understand that.

You just additionally added an argument about NPCs. NPC actions apply no wisdom or judgment but you can. You (the player) have (or maybe not) the ability to realize that NPCs are going to do things that are not necessarily consistent. We have the bugboard for such errors.


We have given our side. There will now be a CBT and a 300 slide minimum quarterly training for Imms.

You are arguing your interpretation over and over. We understand that.
^^^ No, I am arguing over and over what actually physically/mechanically happened in game. You guys are the ones trying to blank that out. Because it happened unintentionally.

You just additionally added an argument about NPCs. NPC actions apply no wisdom or judgment but you can. You (the player) have (or maybe not) the ability to realize that NPCs are going to do things that are not necessarily consistent. We have the bugboard for such errors.
^^^ Imm switching to mob, and attacking me is kinslaying if I am not a kinslayer. AGAIN divorce yourself from what you see, and realise its what is happening on the fields that matters.

>You are arguing your interpretation over and over. We
>understand that.
>^^^ No, I am arguing over and over what actually
>physically/mechanically happened in game. You guys are the
>ones trying to blank that out. Because it happened
>unintentionally.
>
>You just additionally added an argument about NPCs. NPC
>actions apply no wisdom or judgment but you can. You (the
>player) have (or maybe not) the ability to realize that NPCs
>are going to do things that are not necessarily consistent. We
>have the bugboard for such errors.
>^^^ Imm switching to mob, and attacking me is kinslaying if I
>am not a kinslayer. AGAIN divorce yourself from what you see,
>and realise its what is happening on the fields that matters.
>

It's fascinating watching the mental gymnastics you use to justify your actions.

That you keep commenting.

Did I play entirely to my role in a roleplaying game? Yes
Did the Immortals wish to punish me for this? Yes
Did the Immortals punish me in a timely and effective manner? No
Did the Immortals make a mistake by changing my title? Yes
Was the mistake notified to the Player Immediately? No
At all? No
Did the immortals think the best fix was simply changing it back? Yes
Was this a mistake? Yes
On realising additional confrontation was occurring based entirely on their previous mistake did the immortals take any action to avert said path? No
Did some imm get a hardon by slapping betrayer flag on a neutral character ? Yes
Did that Make the character unfun to play? Yes
Did I still play the character ? Yes
Did the Immortals admit to their mistake after the fact? Yes
Did they apologise and promise it would never happen again? No
Did they make any effort to compensate the player involved for the loss of his time and energy due to their mistake? No


Now generally I am good align in real life, so I can forgive mistakes and ####. However I find that a little ironic, given how good aligns deal with mistakes in carrionfields


TL R Immortals made several mistakes, no amends made.

Did I play entirely to my role in a roleplaying game? Yes
>Yes -

Did the Immortals wish to punish me for this? Yes
>No - but it is obligatory that when you betray your kin/align/ethos/etc you have repercussions. Perhaps you are failing to see that?

Did the Immortals punish me in a timely and effective manner? No
>No - We are not perfect nor do we work 24/7 in CF and have the ability to see and know 100% of the actions of 100% of the characters. Also Imms don't all have the same tools available. We communicate and work as a team. Do we wish we could instantly do things, yes. Is it a realistic possibility? No.

Did the Immortals make a mistake by changing my title? Yes
>Yes - We didn't know, nor did we realize that it dropped kinslayer for a while.

Was the mistake notified to the Player Immediately? No
>No - caveat we didn't know either so you couldn't be notified ride away.

At all? No
>Yes/No - It may have seemed obvious when you got kinslayer back and might have been felt it wasn't necessary. Lessons have been learned. HR has been contacted and we're developing CBTs and quarterly training which will be required before logging into to CF.

Did the immortals think the best fix was simply changing it back? Yes
>Yes - Obviously

Was this a mistake? Yes
>Yes - More CBTs and another quarterly training briefing (100 slide power point minimum).

On realising additional confrontation was occurring based entirely on their previous mistake did the immortals take any action to avert said path? No
> I personally can't answer that.

Did some imm get a hardon by slapping betrayer flag on a neutral character ? Yes
> No.

Did that Make the character unfun to play? Yes
> Sorry.

Did I still play the character ? Yes
> I personally can't answer that. It seems truly subjective too. I only know if you logged time.

Did the Immortals admit to their mistake after the fact? Yes
> Yes.

Did they apologise and promise it would never happen again? No
> Sorry things didn't work out perfectly as we all would have liked. And there is no way to make sure mistakes won't happen in the future, but there will be another CBT and a 200 slide powerpoint on how to attempt to not make it happen again.

Did they make any effort to compensate the player involved for the loss of his time and energy due to their mistake? No

>No, but were you expecting instant compensation?


Now generally I am good align in real life, so I can forgive mistakes and ####. However I find that a little ironic, given how good aligns deal with mistakes in carrionfields

>Forgive and forget - we're human up here too despite my typos/errors on another post that said we were actually gods.


TL R Immortals made several mistakes, no amends made.

Given all of the responses to this thread, all of the petty arguments, all of you immortals together missing the point, even your wan attempts at humour in this particular post. Look at all of the energy people are putting in to attacking aspects of this on this forum and others. I played a character according to a role, it was a non cookie-cutter role from day one, it was designed to confront traditional ideas within carrionfields, due to immortal mistakes, the character actually turned out to be amazingly fun, new, different, exciting, it felt like I was playing my role, and the world was responding too it. The range and breadth of interactions and stuff I was involved with were great, generally my characters are pretty aimless cookie cutter, tick the boxes affairs, but Ghrimmli actually had a persona, I didnt just do stuff, I did what Ghrimmli would do. Pulling the, Betrayers get punishment card - Just 0'd the character, oh that wasnt an amazing rp angle, and genius gameplay, it was just a #### up, we ####ed up a few times actually, just pretend like we didnt!! (Oh like with Kaiden?)

?

Genuine accidental goodie kills by noob me.

You self admitted complacency and further stated letting others accidently lead you into guards.

Edit to add...

Don't care if you are made wanted killing evil where it is! Just realize keeping that wanted flag has second order effects which might carry onsiquences if not observed.

Also add that leadership had been forewarned and disemminated the information about the standard via notes and over CB.

We will initiate some scrying based training (SBTs) that must be completed before you can call powers, and it must be reaccomplished every 10 hours in game. You will be warned via message that you are coming due to reaccomplish it at 5 hours,
then 4 hours, then 3 hours, then 2.5 and hours, 2 hours. After 2 hours or less you will be notified everytime you use a Fortress power.

Sure, it was 4 years or so since my last character, so I'm ok with the punishment, but me killing poacher is a noob mistake. Me killing Arkham guard in one round, when he attacks a raiding party of marans with 2 items of power on them, when I am not leading, and theres actually nothing I could do to stop it (mechaniclly) (Oh other than lose my warrant which lets face it, its not like I didnt fight tribunals?). Afk killing a cityguard that tracks me from Galadon into the fortress, nothing I can do here other than logging out. Its game though you know, and even I need to have a drink of tea or take a whizz.

I dunno man if you kill something in self defence, you should feel bad, but I dont think you should be punished for it. You have other ideas and thats fine.

No one will get mercy in the Fortress when it comes to complacency, negligence, or stupidity with killing good.

FYI, you just described all three.

And the game is about fun

I personally agree that those choices aren't fun for me, and thusly I don't role-play a character that will have to face that.

I did, once, with an elf ranger who wanted to be chaotic - so I prayed to pico and he made me chaotic AND evil... The 90's were brutal!

Delete/Delete is the players decision. Some people have tougher skin and more determination with regards to their character than others.

^^^^ #### you


In this particular case I think that a mistake was made, and that was just taking kinship without an explanation or even word of mention.
^^^ Not sure if you grasp what happened, but thats 2 mistakes right there.


A quick 'Hey we just removed kinship because you weren't supposed to get it back. It was an issue with the title change, but it is fixed now.
^^^ To which I would of said oh? thats lame, thanks for letting me know.


You weren't supposed to get it back." would have told the player that oh, hey, the imms don't actually think the dwarves are back on my side. It likely would have tempered many of the other complaints as well.
^^^ Sure, still breaking role for no reason.


Still, delete delete was not the only choice. <--- From an RP perspective for Ghrimmli the dwarf redemption in that case made no sense, from a player pespective, sure man see GHrimmli was actually a chicken the whole time.. I didnt delete then, I deleted only when I found out that the Imms made a mistake (more than one) but didnt care about how that affected the entire world of carrionfields, or my character. Too busy fixing a mechanic to miss the entire point of a roleplay game, and watching them all line up here, to but their oar in, and still not get it


?????
They also said that while possible there would be no guarantee that I ever do get them. I was very tempted to play it anyway, just because the concept was so fun. When I have a bit more experience under my belt I intend to revisit the character, even if it turns out to be an up hill climb for their entire life. There were some great characters that started out as betrayer and worked their way back to their core class powers. It was the gnome fort ranger that gave me the inspiration to go off the map in the first place. It's not as easy as just rolling up another, I'll admit, but that is the cost of being so unique. ????


Besides, the imms gave plenty of warning in this circumstance.
^^ By rewarding me with Kinglslayer title and giving me Kinship?

It wasn't just an "Oh this guy killed some dwarves, alright lets load up the bum rape cannon",
^^^ Literally this


they gave many in character warnings that the dwarves that he was killing didn't think it was right that one of their kinsmen was brining death to their door.
^^^ Apart from the part where I went from Kinslayer with no kinship to Kingslayer with Kinship? Also had kinship for 150?/170 hours of the character, killed a dwarf every day..... Seems like