helpful yes, though what is not here is the obvious.

--Classes regen a lot poorer while bleeding. In drawn out raid situations, you can use this to force a withdrawal. Bleeding is one of my favorite abilities for long fights, beyond just killing someone off who flees with 15 hp left.

This is true. However in most of my fights bleeding is nothing. Right now I am forgetting his name, but such like the svirf, the justiciar of teh indigo triangle. I did use orangutan against him. Good damage, the rare times it hit. But such as when he was writhing in agony, he fled, three room chase, but he was already at perfect health from using the said items above. That was only 3 rooms away and in a second or so timeframe. Was he bleeding? yes. Did it matter? no. The bleeding lasts a short time and does small damage. Good against villagers with no ability to use those items, and unprepared people, but against the majority of lawmen who make gold out the wazoo just from sitting in their guild, or anyone that can gather decent value items, can get healing with ease. The facebite if it blinded with any regularity instead of rarely, or gave a loss to a stat such as other bleeding abilities, would be more worth using to me than just as it is.

--Orangutan is sick. It punches, which small races like gnomes and svirfs are vulnerable to. It has a nice damage attack. Additionally, it can camo, which is really useful when you don't have your cabal item. Its great as group support too. Fox doesn't even compare, in regards to what type of damage it does, they are easier to tank and have a generic attack with little in the way of damage attacks. When you have this many people telling you you're off the mark you should consider re-evaluating your stance.

Yes it does punch, taking advantage of a racial drawback of gnomes and svirf, or humans and that sized reduced. Okay. So the two attacks it gets that average mangles if and only if they hit, are instead against two races, and those two races only average ***DEMOLISHES***. Yes, they can hit for devistates, but they can also mangles against the same people. I speak of average only. More than not the case was that at least one of its only two attacs was dodged/parried/missed entirely, halving its melee damage in total. A fox, six attacks per round, and thuogh it has gotten mangles, and as low as eviscerates, it usually got dismembers/massacres.
Against all but warriors, it hit almost always, and against warriors, hit on over half its attacks. Thank you certain elf warrior of the village .

Let us say each form hits with every single attack for average damage, and let us even consider it a gnome or svirf. Two demolishes, which is about 240 damage. Six dismembers, which is sbouy 360 damage. Any questions? I mentioned the smash skill earlier in the thread. Better damage than fox, yes, it can and usually mangles on averate, most I have seen against a mob is oblit, on a person devistate, svirf. 150 damage or so I will say, but likely high. has chance to lag, about same chance to miss entirely. lag isnt long duration, etc. Fox can bite every round, average dismember. damage about 120 for 2 bites, same duration as 1 smash. no other effects. is little difference, and that little difference doesnt give weight to orangutan.

You mentioned the orangutan having chamo. Yes it does, and yes I was in a cabal with chamelion. I also had another form that could hide. Hyena can too in a desert I think? I dont know about the cobra. I have never had the form. Yeah, the orangutan camo is good to have if and only if we dont have our item, which was honestly not that often. It was mentioned in another post after yours, that its better cause it takes less mana. Uhh. Keep this in mind. You are draining your mana in shifter camo every tick. You revert your out of shifter camo. etc. if you call cham, spend the 30 mana or so it takes to do it, you can go out of form and still be camoed, you can do it in ANY form whatsoever, and out of form, and can be done in more places than shifter. Making it more versatile, and usable for healing more than just hp and moves.

you mentioned its great as group support. With its two attacks it wont be dealing a high end amount of damage comparatively to most people/forms, tanking it woudl likely do okay in a group gangbang, but since it can lag your opponent your likely ganging, yeah, it would do better than the fox, who would solely do damage. Though, any day of the week, I would rather have fox because it can see those assassins, thieves, and rangers running about. I prefer versatility with all this, over.. a possible lag attack and less damage.

PS. how are they easier to tank? *smirk*