I think you need to check some of the descriptions of the foods now. I can think of one in Hillcrest that says it's big enough to fill a giant, but it takes a gnome 2 of them to fill up on. I'm just guessing that there are more like this.

Oh and is there some way to compare the size(holding capacity of bags) if not how hard would it be to implement "to" to the compare function? EX. compare large sack to hefty sack. If this is already done, shame on me.

Anal Retentive Flix

We try to catch these as we go, but some will slip through the cracks.

Once we've gone through all the areas, I'll post here and request feedback on any items that don't seem to fall within standards, or have misleading descriptions. It would be counterproductive to do this before all areas get looked at, though.

Compare currently works with containers, returning the relative carrying capacity of one against the other.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

NT.

I thought I'd give you some statistics on food, just to give you some insight into the changes. I will caveat this with saying that pre-change statistics will be accurate in regards to what we had in the game, but also point out that there were some things that were way out of whack.

Pre Change

Average Fill Value: 17
Average Weight: 961 g
Average Cost: 145 cp

Post Change

Average Fill Value: 14
Average Weight: 672 g
Average Cost: 43 cp

More cheaper, lighter food in the game that fills you up almost as much as it did before the changes. There are still some areas that we haven't hit yet, but the above post change numbers are based on the end state. I'll post some container statistics when I get a bit more time, but it is along the same lines. Fewer uber-containers, but most all containers got tweaked to hold more weight, and are now a bit cheaper and lighter.

Just FYI, the fill values for food that were low have been tweaked upwards a bit, and are live.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

I was one of those food haters that just carried around 50 Galadon berry pies all the time and would load up every once and a while. I like the new system, makes more sense.

The container thing was my only gripe and you have addressed it.

Thx man

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

I was one of those food haters that just carried around 50 Galadon berry pies all the time and would load up every once and a while.

It wasn't the best buy-able food in the game (*), but it was up there. The thing is, if you were far from Galadon... you might be in a town where all the food was terrible for no reason. Worse, the only way you could figure out it was terrible was to buy a bunch and eat it.

The old pricing also wasn't terribly friendly to newer players. If they didn't know that Galadon Berry Pie was the food to buy, they probably wasted a lot of money figuring it out.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*): Strangely, the food that came out on top pre-revamp (as far as Kasty's rating calculations, based on weight, cost, and fill) wasn't being purchased often at all. (I wouldn't have guessed it either.) So don't laugh too hard at the newbie who didn't know about Galadon Berry Pie.

Steak and potatoes in a village in the shadow of a dark Castle.

I'd guess the mushrooms sold in galadon. 1/10th of a lb each. less than 10 to fill up most people, and cheap as all hell.

Three to fill up, 8copper? They weigh nothing. Those were my bread and butter.

Well berries but whatever

{SCION} the Archmage of Eternal Night: Say it.

Whenever I made a new char, first thing I would do is go get the saddle bag, then recall and buy as many academy breads as my char could carry. Of course, I would then see a nice shiny and not be able to pick it up and someone else would get it while I was getting bread from the bag and dropping it.

I think that for cost and wieght and fill, the soup sold inside the paladin guild was the best, but I might be wrong.

>Whenever I made a new char, first thing I would do is go get
>the saddle bag, then recall and buy as many academy breads as
>my char could carry.

Yeah, that won't work anymore.

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't know, either.

> *): Strangely, the food that came out on top pre-revamp (as
>far as Kasty's rating calculations, based on weight, cost, and
>fill) wasn't being purchased often at all. (I wouldn't have
>guessed it either.) So don't laugh too hard at the newbie who
>didn't know about Galadon Berry Pie.

Is it more convenient to get than the berry pie?

I always feel like a sitting duck being out in the open in Galadon long enough to buy a bunch of food and stuff it in a sack, especially if I'm a detects-light character.

Not to say that I haven't eaten more than my fair share of Galadon mushrooms/pies/chickens depending on what was open over the years, but the paranoia surcharge was always high.

Something like an ounce less than berry pies, same fill factor.

nt

>If it makes you feel any better, I didn't know, either.
>
>> *): Strangely, the food that came out on top pre-revamp (as
>>far as Kasty's rating calculations, based on weight, cost,
>and
>>fill) wasn't being purchased often at all. (I wouldn't have
>>guessed it either.) So don't laugh too hard at the newbie
>who
>>didn't know about Galadon Berry Pie.
>

Free and filling.

I ate nine this morning and I still wasn't full.

Unless they've been changed since my last login. Olin still rocks. =)

- Tharena

Thanks for a thoughtful and well presented post!

As Nepenthe said, this is a work in progress. The reduced fill values for foods that were recently changed will be tweaked upwards (hopefully by close of business on Sunday). Probably not to pre-standardization levels, however, but we will find a happy medium, I promise you. Please bear with us as we make the changes; this is a pretty complex and involved project, but I think it will be worth it in the long run.

On a side note, can I assume that folks are happy with the results of the container/drink container standardization that is currently in work? If you haven't noticed it, that's good...and how the food was supposed to work out.

My apologies for any inconvienience.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

This change will increase the challenge for non-rangers seeking Outlander as bartering for food is annoying and free food may taste great but it is less filling.

Their foraging cabal power they have has been bemoaned frequently, and looking at corpses most Outlanders used non-foraged food sources. I hope changes will take this cabal into account, otherwise we won't even have the two or three Outlanders who play to pick on.

An average container should be about the size that one container is enough to contain the max weight of one character or so. For example, cowhide knapsack(I hope that you haven't changed this one) was just about right size for an average container, while many containers were too small to be useful. Cowhide knapsack was big enough for uses of a human, while it was too small for the needs of a giant, who had to get a large saddle bag for his needs(a too heavy to be practical container for human needs). Also, the canteen insulated in wolfs pelt has been a drink container of right size for an average drink container.

A container should be made such, that an average person can carry all he needs in it. Most containers sold in cities were too small to begin with. If you have toned down the containers like cowhide knapsack, then I'm not satisfied with the change. But generally, standarization is a good thing, as it allows to make things sensible everywhere.

And what comes to food items, I personally prefer those items where eating one or two fills up an average character. But if you'd need more than two items to fill up, I've tended not to buy that food again. This is also why I've never tended to buy bread, as CF bread has never been filling when compared to meat. How about making it possible to compare food items to see which item is more filling? Also, I'd like it if extra heavy food items like Hamsah whole chicken would fill up a giant.

Someone mentioned having to eat eight loaves of bread in Academy to get filled. That's 3,840 kg of bread(or eight pounds), which is quite a lot to eat. Hamsah bread weighs one quarter of this, and I had to eat eleven of those when I wasn't even hungry to get my fill. Could you make it so that it would need two or three of Academy breads to fill up a normal person instead of the ridiculously high eight?

All CF weights are grossly inflated. If you're going to complain about eating eight pounds of bread, you should also complain that your human warrior can walk (let alone Dash) while carrying 300+ pounds of gear (*), all while swinging a 20-pound axe (**).

Currently, the assumption is that all weights are too heavy. It's easier to account for that than to re-weight all five-digit-number worth of our objects and then re-do all of the code that cares about weight. One solution might be to come up with a CF-specific unit of weight (one "pebble" = 5 grams) and make all the IC methods of determining weight use that.

On one hand, "pebbles" would be unfamiliar. On the other, currently we're using familiar units incorrectly. I'm not sure which is easier to grasp, just throwing that out there.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*): Firefighters in full protective gear typically carry 60 pounds of weight, and it's exhausting even without the heat factoring in. CF characters carry a ton of stuff.

(**): I Googled up a random site on logging, and got: "These are both 3-1/2 pound axes. The typical Northeastern logger used a 3-1/2 to 4 pound ax, Western loggers typically used 4 to 4-1/2 pound axes." CF weapons are very, very heavy, yet CF character swing them just fine.

Personally I always visualized all PCs being followed around everywhere by a loyal porter. This porter also bangs coconuts if needed.

>All CF weights are grossly inflated. If you're going to
>complain about eating eight pounds of bread, you should also
>complain that your human warrior can walk (let alone
>Dash) while carrying 300+ pounds of gear (*), all while
>swinging a 20-pound axe (**).

An human adventurer wielding a 20 pound battle axe seems reasonable based on many fantasy genres, including CF. When that same adventurer sits down and wolfs down eight pounds of bread it seems strange.

Regarding the weights, I think the switch to something like "pebbles" would be a bad idea for the same reason you stated. There's no point of reference.

Are the imms going for 3 full "whole chickens" to fill up a medium sized char?

Are the imms wanting it to cost 140-500 copper per meal from hungry to full? That's what I just spent with my character in trying to find a new food source.

Are the containers going to be all changed so that most can not hold more than 1-2 full meals (hungry to full) to make people choose between flight potions/recallpotions/det inv preps and food?

My character had a container with 20 det inv preps (small, weighing nearly nothing) and 5-10 other preps, and now can't fit even one full meal into the container as well.

I sure hope some of these will be tweaked back up, I can see this leading to alot more high-str races, as it is now low strength races just won't have the strength to carry the 2-4 sacks full of food needed just to go on an hour ranking trip. As it is, I think I'm not even going to TRY to go ranking until this change gets tweaked (hoping it gets tweaked for the better), as most ranking areas aren't close to decent food sources unless you are a ranger, and the idea of the whole group having to run and fill up on food again every couple of repops makes me shiver.

sigh. I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt that it won't STAY as bad as it is right now, and thank you for your somewhat more detailed explanation of what the immstaff is trying to do with this "standardization", but I'll admit, I'm sad that nomatter how it ends up, it will probably end up with most characters losing a very hefty % of their carrying capacity in terms of items able to be carried even with containers.

I will try to not let my nightmares of typing
"get return 4.sack....####...that's my flight potion sack....get return 2.girdle...####...that's my detect invis girdle....bash bash....sigh dead again"
get the better of me until the tweaks are in.

There are relatively cheap 1-or-2-for-full meals out there that aren't terribly heavy. One of them isn't far from the pies you used to eat.

I am, really, very relieved to hear this, even if I haven't found that food item yet.

But, my examples are from my own experience today, including the 3+ "whole chickens" to get full*, 2 steps away from the pies in galadon. (for 41cp a pop, although, I admit, I didn't try the jerky in the same store for 7cp a pop, figuring those would be even worse). And I wasn't exaggerating on how much space those whole chickens take up in the newer lower-capacity containers.

*I'm hoping it is only 3 to get full. When I first ate 2 and got full, it was after eating 12 mushroooms. But later, when I got the hungry echo I ate two and was not full, so it might very well be more than 3 whole chickens.


And I'm not really that concerned about the weight of the food, as much as the double hit of having to suddenly carry more food per meal at the same time as suddenly having your containers contain a noticibly smaller amount than they used to.

Like I said, I'm more than willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt that it will all work out in the end, but that doesn't stop my mind from seeing these first stages and conjuring fears of what cf would be like if the combination food/container situation remained how I saw it today. As long as it ends up that I can carry somewhere between 10-20 meals worth without devoting all of my inventory space to sacks for food without any room for extra weapons/preps, or without taking up all of my weight allowance, I'll be happy. (although there are some ranking areas, especially later in the game, where having a limit of just carrying under even 10 meals without dodging like a brick house would I think SEVERLY hamper peoples ability to rank)

Thanks for yours and Kast's replies though, they do go far to give us the ability to not let those fears run away with us.

This is still a work in progress and I think we're aware of that. Try not to panic too much just yet.

Galadon pies shouldn't be the uberfood, but neither does it make sense that you need to eat seven full pies to get full. We'll find a happy medium.

Please make something there worthy eating?

Part of this project's result will be that it really won't matter where you buy your food. Prior to Kasty's quantitative approach, you could try a store (Arial City being one) and end up screwed, paying a lot for food that doesn't do much.

We're still tweaking the constants in the equations, but you won't have to worry much about regional problems once this is done.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I think it needs a little more touching up than just a new food vendor. Almost every other area has been carved into... and I don't think there's another area (especially city!) that needs more of an overhaul.

Personal opinion, of course. =P

- Tharena

I am all for nixing food and water altogether what roleplay aspect does it encourage in umm well maybe less than one percent of chars. And those chars who do make a role that says I shall only eat meat well... nobody cares about them or even tends to notice. I mean seriously I have never seen food/water as anything more then a hassel. It adds realism but at the same time technically we should be getting 8 hours of sleep a day and ####ting once a day and pissing twice, we don't have that because well it just detracts. Why not make food an optional thing for strictly roleplay purposes. You never need to eat but you can if you want to. Along with that why not make famish a bit nastier.

at the least nobody cares about the real value of bread honestly just make food easy for everyone and you will keep more players. who wants to go #### i got full looted now I need to take twenty minutes to equip and 2 hours to get enough food that I won't have to visit a shop every ten minutes.

I am all for nixing food and water altogether what roleplay aspect does it encourage in umm well maybe less than one percent of chars. And those chars who do make a role that says I shall only eat meat well... nobody cares about them or even tends to notice. I mean seriously I have never seen food/water as anything more then a hassel. It adds realism but at the same time technically we should be getting 8 hours of sleep a day and ####ting once a day and pissing twice, we don't have that because well it just detracts. Why not make food an optional thing for strictly roleplay purposes. You never need to eat but you can if you want to. Along with that why not make famish a bit nastier.

Some good thoughts. Eating and drinking are pretty integral parts to the game right now, so I don't see us doing away with that facet of CF life. A little bit of inobtrusive realism actually adds to the RP aspects of the game, and creates opportunities for folks that want to add interesting quirks to their characters. Folks that don't can still eat taglo jerky sandwiches.

We're not interested in defication, however.

at the least nobody cares about the real value of bread honestly just make food easy for everyone and you will keep more players. who wants to go #### i got full looted now I need to take twenty minutes to equip and 2 hours to get enough food that I won't have to visit a shop every ten minutes.

Food is already easy. And most of the food objects are in the process of getting cheaper and lighter. If it takes you twenty minutes to equip and 2 hours to get food, you're playing a much different game than I am (unless you mean 2 hours of in-character time).

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

man oh man oh man... I wanted to claim some quaint one-liner like, "dood, laxman == wacksman", but... somehow I feel a bit more of a barf of a diatribe comin on...

I recently had the opportunity of playing a felar ranger- sphere gluttony who really only wanted to eat and eat and eat. I had a boatload of fun with that cat. I am an RP-retarded idiot, and this was the first time I made some headway, and it opened up a new side of the game for me. JUST by making sure that- when he was around other characters- to have the cat eat every time he was not "too full to eat more", and making sure that he always ate something really manly-tough like a steak of some sort of corpse that he killed, or (--insert whatever cool looking food he could find around--) ... or... even steaks of himself (which I loved the best), well; every character that he interacted with knew exactly what was up. He'd take food in exchange for any type of bribe or favor or trade or anything. Gluttony. Get into it.

(He even prayed to the Gods to make his stomach bigger because it looked really lousy for him to become full when he was supposed to always be a starving little bastad. Man, that would have kicked ass to be able to get a skill to be capable of him eating like thirty-two spareribs in a row. Make the fire giants gasp even. Kick ass...next time imms please, next time...).

But then I though about it for a minute...

... I can remember first time finding cf, and muds in general and AMAZED at how they could know how the f* my guy was hungry and where the hell am I gonna get some food and how the hell can I hold all that food and what the hell food am I gonna eat anyways?

Back then, money made sense (but I had none in real life), and eating made sense (though I was on ramen-- I could still eat a Griff's Roast Duck and ~almost~ be happier about my situation); I think it will all pull itself together, and I have a hunch the numbers will cruch and it will get even better.

And you can't take that away.

Nixing food is a bad idea. Hunger and thirst factor into some classes' PK schemes to say the least.

>Galadon pies shouldn't be the uberfood,

Galadon pies were the uber food because they were sold right near market square in galadon.

Yes, there are foods out there that are either/or lighter/more filling/less expensive, But players just want to play the game, not have to go on cross country treks just to get food.

Maybe, if you don't wnat everyone eating pies, make galadon have a wider range of food choices (like any city would), instead of nerfing pies with the intention of forcing people to go get food elsewhere?

Galadon pies were the uber food because they were sold right near market square in galadon.

They were the uberfood because they were lightweight, inexpensive and had a very high fill value. And because they are sold in Galadon.

Yes, there are foods out there that are either/or lighter/more filling/less expensive, But players just want to play the game, not have to go on cross country treks just to get food.

We're not interested in making players have to go on cross country treks just to get food. I can assure you, with the 600+ food items in the game, you will always be able to get quality food in or around any major city.

Maybe, if you don't wnat everyone eating pies, make galadon have a wider range of food choices (like any city would), instead of nerfing pies with the intention of forcing people to go get food elsewhere?

We don't care one way or another if folks eat pies or not. The goal of the project is to make a pie in Galadon roughy similar to a pie in Udgaard roughly similar to a pie in Arkham. Jerky in Balator similar to jerky in Hamsah similar to jerky in Voralian. And there shouldn't be a flank steak sold in Blackclaw that weighs 100 grams and has a fill value of 40 hours, while a flank steak in Akan weighs 2000 grams and has a fill value of 15 hours. A non-standard system caters heavily to folks who are 'in the know' where the out of whack items are, and inadvertantly penalizes new players who don't have that level of knowledge and have to lug around heavy, non-filling foods.

And Galadon currently has 19 different kinds of foods (that I know of) sold there, more than any other area in the game. The fact that a lot of folks don't know this is testament (to me, anyway) to the fact that berry pies were out of whack.

Rough standardization is the goal, not forcing folks to eat balanced meals or not have a plethora of food options.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

>We're not interested in making players have to go on cross
>country treks just to get food. I can assure you, with the
>600+ food items in the game, you will always be able to
>get quality food in or around any major city.
>
>Maybe, if you don't wnat everyone eating pies, make galadon
>have a wider range of food choices (like any city would),
>instead of nerfing pies with the intention of forcing people
>to go get food elsewhere?
>

>And Galadon currently has 19 different kinds of foods (that I
>know of) sold there, more than any other area in the game.
>The fact that a lot of folks don't know this is testament (to
>me, anyway) to the fact that berry pies were out of whack.
>

This may be a really ridiculous question, but why not bring other food items UP to the standard of berry pies? If people wanted to bother eating different foods, they could then buy one of the other varieties sold by the Galadon merchants. There would be no penalty (in terms of weight, fill, etc> for their RP choice, as well as no change to those who just want to buy a big stack of pies.

Now I have a genuine reason to swear by meat consumption other than roleplaying. At least, judging from those types of meat I tend to use to keep the character fed and happy.

Though I hope I will not end up dearly regretting this post in the near future for one reason or another.

Think you could also look at the carry capacity for sacks and other carry items? It seems way out of 'wack'. Endless space items that can only hold 10 steaks, ect.

Also...Just curious as to why there were changes to the amount of food it takes to fill you up? It doesnt seem to accomplish anything other than make things more annoying to the playerbase. Not even a complaint, just curious what the end goal was supposed to be....also I am assuming there are probably little tweaks that need to be worked out like with any changes.

If you eat something from a meat group, some bread, and a fresh vegatable, are we going to get bonuses for eating a well balanced diet?

Thanks Nepenthe

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

Think you could also look at the carry capacity for sacks and other carry items? It seems way out of 'wack'. Endless space items that can only hold 10 steaks, ect.

This is in progress.

Also...Just curious as to why there were changes to the amount of food it takes to fill you up? It doesnt seem to accomplish anything other than make things more annoying to the playerbase. Not even a complaint, just curious what the end goal was supposed to be....also I am assuming there are probably little tweaks that need to be worked out like with any changes.

The general reasons were posted on the announcements board. Basically, by standardizing objects (food included), we open up a wide variety of future economy-based projects that would be impossible if, say, a sword in Emerald Forest had a value that was ten times as that of an exact same sword in the Coastal Plains.

If you eat something from a meat group, some bread, and a fresh vegatable, are we going to get bonuses for eating a well balanced diet?

We're not interested in that level of detail at this point. If you want to live off a diet of taglo jerky sandwiches, that's fine. That being said, with some level of standardization, this sort of thing could potentially be introduced.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

>If you want to live off a diet of taglo jerky sandwiches,
>that's fine.

Your constipation CRAMPS you!!!

Let's not get too carried away here.

>If you eat something from a meat group, some bread, and a
>fresh vegatable, are we going to get bonuses for eating a well
>balanced diet?
>
>We're not interested in that level of detail at this point.
>If you want to live off a diet of taglo jerky sandwiches,
>that's fine. That being said, with some level of
>standardization, this sort of thing could potentially be
>introduced.


But it won't, right?

>
>>If you eat something from a meat group, some bread, and a
>>fresh vegatable, are we going to get bonuses for eating a
>well
>>balanced diet?
>>
>>We're not interested in that level of detail at this point.
>>If you want to live off a diet of taglo jerky sandwiches,
>>that's fine. That being said, with some level of
>>standardization, this sort of thing could potentially be
>>introduced.
>
>
>But it won't, right?

I wouldn't rule out some kind of bonuses for eating certain
foods. There are already 'gourmet' foods in the game which
give little bonuses (they have echoes) as it is, and this
wouldn't be too much of an extension of that.

But nobody is going to force a 'correct' diet down anyone's throat.

Qaledus

Do they hold to capacity by weight, or by number of items?

Yes, I should know this, shouldn't I. Point and laugh at your leisure.

- Tharena

valguarnera@carrionfields.com