This huge, long, silly, bloated annoying, space taking thread is all about......


-=DRUMROLL=-

*sayto*


WHAT HAVE WE COME TO PEOPLE?

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

/nt

I'm actually happy with the way it works right now. It's a pretty chaotic area all things considered and I think it sort of ruins the point if there's a perfect paint by numbers schedule tacked onto the wall. I appreciate the suggestions, and I know it's a pain having to wait for the once a month some boats come in, but they're supposed to be rare sightings and not 100% guarenteed. If you're displeased about the vague answers I gave you, it's because I think part of exploring an area isn't getting spoon-fed the answers on its secrets. Something like where the schedule is was put there for people who explore. Frankly, I think it shouldn't be common knowledge.

However, how would a person know that they could speak to a mob and have it talk back to them? Out of the entire mud, I think this is the first mob I've heard of that you can talk to first instead of vice versa. Very nice idea by the way. I think most people would assume the obvious by now though, and assume it will sit there like a brick if talked to.

>However, how would a person know that they could speak to a
>mob and have it talk back to them? Out of the entire mud, I
>think this is the first mob I've heard of that you can talk to
>first instead of vice versa.

There's probably hundreds, actually.

If the next version of the Academy ever sees the light of day I'm hoping it'll make a point of teaching this.

This was actually introduced/heavily used when Voralian City opened. There are tons of mobs in the game that use it. A lot of the things you can ask like "A sad looking paladin sits here crying." you 'sayto paladin' Why are you sad? And he probably has a response. It's definetly not Seaport TM.

This is actually really cool, and gives me something to look for now. After a certain point you just stop talking to mobs because you know they won't do anything. I will be addressing a lot of mobs in the near future. Is it always sayto?

Yup, it's triggered off keywords and only responds to sayto. It's in a lot of places to help you learn backgrounds of areas and such. Hope you have fun with it.

In some appropriate cases it might need to be whisperto instead.

I swear we put up an announcement about this like two years ago, but I've been known to be delusional.

That when it was posted there was only really one area with the mobs. Hundreds among thousdands of mobs is not a lot. Not enough to justify the extrodinary amount of effort it would take to start spamming tons of mobs with keywords to find out if they talked back. So the playerbase mostly forgot it existed outside of the loch.


personally I think a way to tell if a mob will talkback would be nifty. if only to save us from spaming every mob in the entire game with hi. Or just a list of areas that have been updated to use this feature.

I remember playing Avatar with them a time or two and going all 'Name? Job? Bye.' when Voralian first came in.

I thought Voralian was the first city as AFAIK sayto works in the Loch because say works in the loch, but I haven't completed that quest, so I could be wrong. I'm all for NPC's being more PCish, but quite frankly, I'm not going to try striking up random conversation with every NPC I happen across.* Can we agree on some sort of happy medium where only NPC's with names (proper names) like Ghoulag the orc are ones which we should try sayto on? Meaning every mob that responds to sayto is a named mob, not a wandering elf, or obscure elf binder who hold the rope I need for the quest I'm doing. I think that reasonable in that I don't waste my time, and you still get the coolness of sayto. I'm not saying every named NPC needs to respond to sayto (though it would be nice) but that mobs which are bland don't, and we shouldn't waste our time trying.

*I removed the bit that follows because it belongs in a separate post, but I'm lazy so: It's a waste of my time in a similar way to re-exploring the same areas for the obs exp is a waste of my time (It confers in game benefits... all said, I'd rather spam defenses in the old system).

It's meant to be for things about an area/pc/etc that you might be curious about. I'll give you a good example from the Seaport. There's one captain on a boat with a unique sword. If you ask him something along the lines of the name of the sword he has a response explaining it. Sayto is meant to supplement rp history and knowledge in a proper manner. I am not going to say "This guy's daughter died and he had this sword made in her memory" in my room desc or in the mob desc, because I think that's lame. Therefore, a sayto for the people who notice these things and are curious about them. I don't think you should look at it as rp'ing with mobs exactly, just more satisfying curiousity. I admit, the saytos get frustrating because they have to be triggered so specifically, but all around I think they're a good idea and I don't think they need to be changed. You can get a general idea of the areas that have gone in since Voralian, and many of them implement this.

I'll write a script then that will sayto every mob a generic question about every word in their description and anything they are wearing because I don't know which they will respond to, and there is no intelligent way to decide it. Therefor my best bet is simply complete spammification.

A dark elf stands here with an earing and a tattoo.
<wielded in mainhand> crazy looking sword

sayto dark "What is a?"
sayto dark "What is dark?"
sayto dark "What is elf?"
sayto dark "What is stands?"
.
.
.
sayto dark "What is crazy?"
sayto dark "What is sword?"

Now if it's picky enough it won't respond to something like <keyword>? Then I just plain give up, since the amount of effort to "figure it out" either myself or by scripting it is beyond the worth of the information. All I want is a way to tell which mobs will respond to something (After that I can figure out what) and which are dumb as bricks that I should simply ignore.

If a mob is like "A dark elf stands here with an earring and a tattoo" you could, if you wanted, sayto dark "Where did you get that tattoo?" And if he has a sayto key'd to him to explain the tatoo, it'll trigger it. Things that don't stick out like that, though, dont' really have saytos. And the saytos will make sense - if you ask him "Why are you crazy?" well maybe you won't get an answer, crazy people don't know they're crazy generally. But I do think you're overthinking this - it's just a handy rp tole. I think some quests might be triggered off of it as well, but for the most part that's all it is.

I wouldn't say that sayto isn't used on mobs not too far different from the one above. Lot's of mobs "stand out" to me, for instance in the Consortium area, which I recently went through and got el zilcho to me sayto requests. I may not have been phrasing it right, but then I consider, 'Tell be about that tattoo?' and 'What's up with the tattoo?' and 'What is that tattoo of?' and 'Nice tattoo, where did you get it?' to all be reasonably equivalent. I bet the code for it doesn't. Where is the helpfile explaining sayto and the types of phrases it is looking for. Does it have to be a question? How is it a handy RP tool if I spend hours walking around trying to find out info buy nothing that *I* think should respond to sayto does? Are there quests that trigger the start off of sayto? How will I know? Tell me it's all just random information that has no non-rp purpose, and I'll gladly ignore the functionality of sayto mobs forever, but the second it has a purpose other than that... Well then your AI better be at least able to recognize the phrases I said were equivalent above, because otherwise you are wasting my time. I'm not saying it isn't cool, because it is, but unless it's smart enough to deal with real people, then it's frustration I don't really need. It isn't even like mino speech blocking entrance to areas, because at least those phrases are well known, but lots and lots of sayto mobs mean that there is that much "stuff" out there for me to explore or check out but isn't apparent. It's like when you add new areas or new parts to areas and don't mention it... How do I know to check a new area segment out for stuff that might be useful to me if I don't know it went in? Re-explore every area with every character? I just want to know how much time you'd like us to waste, so I can gauge my playing accordingly. Honestly this is probably meaner than it should be, but sayto frustrates the #### out of me... I've tried in places I know it *should* work and gotten nothing, and I've come to the conclusion that, like certain quests, my thinking and the author's thinking aren't aligned enough that I'm going to think up the specific phrase I need so I might as well not bother and just ask someone else.

Ok, I'm pretty much done. RP is cool, but I need a way to tell the difference between sayto enabled NPCs and non-sayto enabled NPCs the same way I need to be able to tell whether something that looks like a really big axe with a long handle is actually an axe, or a polearm. Whether a really long dagger is actually being consider a sword. Whether a slender mahogany rod is a staff or a stave or a wand. Etc. Etc. Etc. Food vs Pill Etc. Etc.

Edit: Suggestion look or examine NPC will tell me (link it with an observation skill like improved consider (still waiting) if you want) something like A dark elf looks like he has something to say.

There I've now offered usefulness along with my flameness

Sayto is very frustrating because the player doesn't know if they're being stupid and not saying the right keywords, or if the mob doesn't talk. That ambiguity is very frustrating. Knowing if a mob talks or not would be immensely helpful, but I can't think of a very good IC way to convey that, besides giving the mobs speech progs that hint at it.

I'll be honest with you - I don't use this function much in my area writing at all. In fact I think there are 2 mobs in all of the Seaport that use it. There have also been many times as a mortal that I've been frustrated because I see "So and so is here searching for something, looking troubled" and I ask them "Why are you troubled? What are you looking for?" and get no response. So I do feel your pain.

I'll admit there are no saytos in the Consortium because the base of the area was written before the function came into the game. When I took the area, added gear and fixed up the descs and changed somethings about it, I didn't think about adding s descs. Again, like I said, I don't use it a lot unless I have a good reason.

sayto's are triggered off specific keywords. So if you ask any of those tattoo questions (for example) you should get the response if it's on the mob. No, I'm not saying it's a perfect system.

And yes, I have found the rat trap. I did not do so via sayto, ####, et al.

I'm sorry I brought this on you, but I'll be calm, I promise.

>I'll be honest with you - I don't use this function much in
>my area writing at all. In fact I think there are 2 mobs in
>all of the Seaport that use it.

If I looked at every mob in the Seaport and read their description, do you think I would know that these two are ones I would want to talk to? Don't you think that would be ideal?

>There have also been many
>times as a mortal that I've been frustrated because I see "So
>and so is here searching for something, looking troubled" and
>I ask them "Why are you troubled? What are you looking for?"
>and get no response. So I do feel your pain.

I'm glad you understand.

>I'll admit there are no saytos in the Consortium because the
>base of the area was written before the function came into the
>game. When I took the area, added gear and fixed up the descs
>and changed somethings about it, I didn't think about adding s
>descs. Again, like I said, I don't use it a lot unless I have
>a good reason.

And that's cool. Honestly I thought it was Voralian only until recently, so I've been trying it in newer areas because I thought it might be interesting. Turns out it just made me a bit frustrated and highlighted some other issues for me.

>sayto's are triggered off specific keywords. So if you ask
>any of those tattoo questions (for example) you should get the
>response if it's on the mob. No, I'm not saying it's a
>perfect system.

Keywords are good, at least if I get the word in there I have a chance.

>And yes, I have found the rat trap. I did not do so via
>sayto, ####, et al.

How long did it take? How false positives did you have before you found the right thing? Don't you think that finding the right thing should have been obvious? I'm not going to lie, I was told the answer (IC) and had I not, I never would have put it together. Random mob #7 amongst area with 435 random mobs just doesn't warrant much attention from me. Sorry.

I really should have taken this thread an sentiment elsewhere, so you knew it wasn't an attack against you or the seaport, but I did not, and for that I apologize. Hopefully despite my abrasive manner, some good might come from this.

The mob in question is pretty obviously someone you would want to pay attention to, when looking for that particular item. People kept going on and on about how hard a time they had finding it, but I never had a difficult time with it. It's admittedly not the standard way to find items like that (It might be better if said mob sold the item instead, as a shoppie would) but I've been playing for so long certain things like knowing what mobs can be spoken to for interaction is pretty much second nature.

Um, you're kind of being a jerk. The sayto mob feature is one that came out awhile ago and is used at the discretion of the area writer. It's a tool...just like extra descriptions and hidden containers in a room are a tool to writers. Want to make a script that tries to 'look XYZ' where XYZ is every word in the description?

Really, exploring would be TONS easier if all of these extra detail features came with a blinking light next to them. I wouldn't hold your breath on us implementing any features that make it so that you can find these hidden details without reading/comprehending the descriptions of the area pieces. I mean, that's kind of the definition of hidden. If we wanted to make the fact/information/object more obvious, we'd have put it in all caps in the primary description of the mob or room.

I think people enjoy different features of CF. Some people love exploring an area and really getting into the picture that the author is painting. Saytos, extra descriptions, and the occassional hidden item to reward your exploration is how we paint the details of that picture. Just because you clearly don't like that part and would like to automate finding all of these pieces, doesn't mean we agree and are going to get rid of the way those pieces work.

>Um, you're kind of being a jerk. The sayto mob feature is
>one that came out awhile ago and is used at the discretion of
>the area writer. It's a tool...just like extra descriptions
>and hidden containers in a room are a tool to writers. Want
>to make a script that tries to 'look XYZ' where XYZ is every
>word in the description?

Good idea, and easily done. How long would I be allowed to use such a system before I was denied? It wouldn't technically fall against the no-botting rules any more than invokers spambots do. So long as I sit in front of my computer. Also this is the only way to know if *this* bookshelf has something interesting when numerous other bookshelves do not. The problem I have is not that hidden stuff exists, it is that short of automation (or the near automation I currently do by hand) I'm not going to find even most of the stuff. Oh there is a chest, wait there isn't. Oh there is a wardrobe, oh it's just a description, but it include a drawer. Oh but there isn't a drawer. Look here is another room with the same description, but no wardrobe. Does that mean the other one was special? Did it hide something? I don't know! I didn't write the area! #### I just want to find a want or shield or stone skin potion, why do I have to examine every noun in every room description when 90% of them aren't even described?

>Really, exploring would be TONS easier if all of these extra
>detail features came with a blinking light next to them. I
>wouldn't hold your breath on us implementing any features that
>make it so that you can find these hidden details without
>reading/comprehending the descriptions of the area pieces. I
>mean, that's kind of the definition of hidden. If we wanted
>to make the fact/information/object more obvious, we'd have
>put it in all caps in the primary description of the mob or
>room.

It would be tons easier if it wasn't based on blind luck or near automatic (by hand or otherwise). I don't need to read or comprehend description to find stuff, all I have to do is look at everything. Reading it and comprehending it is actually hurting me since 90% of the time, there isn't anything there. If you made it all caps, sure it would be easy to spot, but I'd still have to at least LOOK, or have brief off, or something. Maybe if the descriptions made it obvious in the cases where there *was* something hidden (Like something catches your eye about some paneling (V'dramir)) instead of There are desks here, just like every other room in this goddamn tower (HToS), but one of these is unlocked. Good thing you looked at every ####ing desk in this whole tower. I'm sorry if Rayihn is taking this in any way personally since it long ago (for me) stopped being even remotely about her area, but this is an issue that I think needs to be addressed.

>I think people enjoy different features of CF. Some people
>love exploring an area and really getting into the picture
>that the author is painting. Saytos, extra descriptions, and
>the occassional hidden item to reward your exploration is how
>we paint the details of that picture. Just because you
>clearly don't like that part and would like to automate
>finding all of these pieces, doesn't mean we agree and are
>going to get rid of the way those pieces work.

I like exploring, or at least I've been enjoying it lately, but that doesn't mean it is an experience without frustration. How about we play a game, a scavenger hunt, I want you to find me a picture of a desk, a swirling orb of pinkish color, and a key. Wait, don't start yet, you have to find the EXACT ones I want, but that's all the information you get. Feel free to find and as me about hundreds of them to see if there are the right one before you find the one I want. That is what these hidden little gems are. It isn't a question of intelligence, or enjoying the picture the author is painting. What it is about is trying over and over and over 100 times to be rewarded once. That isn't fun for anyone. Again, I don't need blinking red text or all caps, but something like: Looks like he has something to say, or Appears to be the talkative sort, or This desk catches your eye as it is partially cracked open, or Magical light shines ever so lightly through the cracks around this drawer. Hey look, now if I read it and understand it, I'm rewarded, and I can learn that "This mundane looking clothes chest" probably isn't interesting, but the "Chest that seems to be emitting a faint humming sound" is. Damn, it's like I'm not even an asshole asking for them to be all caps or highlighted bright blue, but instead asking that some consistency be shown so that I don't have to examine every word in every description or sayto every mob into order to enjoy these things. #### half the time I don't read the descriptions because it's more effective to skim for nouns to examine and move on. If the text *actually* contained clues about which nouns were important, or if anything was particularly noteworthy, then it wouldn't be masturbation without the payoff.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable, all I ask is that I, a semi-intelligent human being, have a distinct advantage at finding interesting (not even necessarily useful) stuff when exploring because I can read and understand sentences vs. a script I could write in ~10 minutes which will examine every word in a room description. I don't think that is too much to ask. Area authors discretion should include not wasting peoples time by forcing them to examine 100 room nouns to find the one that actually has something without fairly obvious clues that not only is this one special, but the other 100 are not.

Yeah, but when you try for 20 minutes and fail to figure out keywords, etc, its frustrating. When there are a variety of mobs who you're just expected to figure out what they want and hand it to them, plus mobs that respond to certain phrases who won't work in the same way as the ones above, and yet others who will talk to you when you walk past them, it makes it impossible to figure out these quests without randomly typing things until you hit the magic phrase.

*snip*

And most of the time I had the right idea, but I was using the wrong container phrase or some other mechanical issue.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but I'm only being honest. I think what Tac is talking about is the lack of consistency. I think it'd be easier of things were delegated such that "sayto phrasing" was purely roleplay oriented and quest mobs were more blatant. Otherwise its not any sort of roleplay/exploration oriented challenge, but rather a challenge in figuring out what specific phrase an NPC will respond to. Its one of those things from D&D that just doesn't translate well into games. Its a problem with communication that only exists due to the limitations of programming and the frustration with it is purely mechanical/OOC. Hence, having it conceal in game benefits/rewards is frustrating.

I was just being honest. I've found a number of things, but at times it just becomes key bashing and its even more frustrating when your reward is something trivial (like say, some XP you could've gained by killing mobs in 1/10th the time it took you to figure out the quest).

I figured some constructive criticism might help as I imagine there becomes a divide when all the people testing out the quests in the game are people who have been imms for years or have some insight into how most quests work by the nature of having area writing knowledge.

As an example, you guys keep stating "this is a new feature"...eluding that we should look at this in new areas. What good does that do to a newbie, who quickly learns as a rule of thumb that mobs don't talk and has no idea which areas are new?

Should I have to know the relative age of an area to figure out a quest? Should I have to know the area's author to piece together that items in said areas are linked? Consider the painting/captain quest aspect. If I didn't know the same guy wrote both areas, I'd have no idea to look there for that item.

I don't know, sometimes I just don't think OOC game mechanics should play into quests. For ambiance sure, since that doesn't hurt anyone who can't figure it out. For quests, it means I just spend an hour doing steps 1-5 only to fail on step 6 because I didn't know X mob could be spoken to, or which mob to speak to, or what area they're in, or whatever. Not because I don't "get" the quest, but because I haven't stumbled onto the piece of programming that was altered to make this quest work.

I think what confuses me with this complaint is that the sayto mob feature *is* very lenient with phrasing. You shouldn't have to find some magic phrase to enjoy the added flavor this area tool can give you.

Now, sayto mobs, for us, is a fairly new feature. So, before it came out as a standard thing area writers could use, writers wanting something like that for the game had to request special progs written. Similarly, if it's not a simple information exchange that the mob provides but some kind of quest, it probably had to be more specifically coded. This is probably where you can run into pickier phrasing issues.

I'm not quest-queen by any means, but the ones I know about that are especially phrase picky, the previous mob gives you exact thing to say. So, if A mob says, 'Go tell B mob 'Hey, give me that sword you funky punk!'' then I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy if you blow the syntax when you talk to B mob. Similarly, I've seen quests where the 'magic phrase' was 'yes.' It might ignore you if you said, 'absolutely, I'll do it!' However, if you then said 'yes' afterwords it immediatly started working. Again, if the magic phrase is 'yes' I'm probably not going to lose sleep over that being too tricky.

Finally, we do like constructive criticism. If you find a situation in game where you are sure the mob is supposed to talk to you and you can't figure out the syntax (and that is not because you weren't paying attention when the quest started, or you're at the wrong mob, etc.) then I would recommend submitting that in the appropriate spot. If you're unsure of what that is, let us know...we have a bug board, a typo feature, email accounts, and slews of helpfiles explaining the best way to use these communication features. Most of the time I think sayto mob tricks work really well and are easy to use. This doesn't always mean one doesn't have some kind of a bug or tangled up syntax. Typos sometimes happen on our end.

I'd say if you spend more than 2 minutes trying to talk to any specific mob...something has gone awry. Most likely - the mob doesn't talk. Most mobs don't. So if you're in an area where NONE of the mobs have talked yet and you can't get one to respond to some phrases with obvious keywords...I'd say move on and save that next 19 minutes of your life.

>I think what confuses me with this complaint is that the
>sayto mob feature *is* very lenient with phrasing. You
>shouldn't have to find some magic phrase to enjoy the added
>flavor this area tool can give you.

I also shouldn't have to blindly guess at which mobs respond to sayto.

>I'd say if you spend more than 2 minutes trying to talk to any
>specific mob...something has gone awry.

What is the number of unique NPC's in CF? I'd guess well into the thousands. I'm not spending more than 2 minutes on any specific mob, or wasting my time with areas I know (or think because who knows if new content has been added) don't have sayto mobs, but there are A LOT of mobs.

>Most likely - the mob
>doesn't talk. Most mobs don't. So if you're in an area where
>NONE of the mobs have talked yet and you can't get one to
>respond to some phrases with obvious keywords...I'd say move
>on and save that next 19 minutes of your life.

By this reasoning, no one would ever find the 2ish mobs in the Seaport that have the sayto functionality because the other 50 don't, so chances of them starting with one of the two that do is pretty low... 1 in 25 by my made up numbers. If they did start with 1 of the two well then they're going to waste a lot of time finding that second one going through a lot of mobs that don't talk.

Again, what I am specifically asking for is some way to intelligently discern the difference between a mob that will talk to me, and a mob that won't. I've offered suggestions there, take them, don't, come up with your own, I don't care, but something needs to be done. Otherwise the script I wrote up last night for examining every unique word in a room description is getting the addition functionality of sayto every word in a mobs description.

There are probably several hundred named mobs in the game, and maybe thousands who have something in their description which would qualify as a 'keyword'. Its not practical to try to talk to all of them. There are some quests which span multiple areas, in fact the entire game. It gets to a point where, the plausibility of finding the correct mob to talk to and saying the correct thing is reliant on blind luck. I could probably name a few hundred mobs who look like they should respond to talking but don't, and that's the crux of the issue.

Sure, once you find said mob it makes sense, but prior to that its pretty impractical to try when you know, game-mechanics-wise, that the vast majority of the mobs in the game totally ignore everything you say to them.

Then we get into container/magic phrase issues. Consider Mortorn, and I'll use that because its not much of a secret. Change the casing of what you say and the phrase does not work. Change the punctuation and the phrase does not work. Say it as a familiar or a minotaur, phrase does not work.

As an ambiance thing, by all means. But when its part of a puzzle then it becomes tricky. If I spend more than 2 minutes and the mob doesn't talk, fine. Once you repeat that for 15 mobs, you've now spent a half hour wasting your time. That's the player perspective. And I'm not complaining about it, more pointing out that given the size of Carrion Fields, using sheer game mechanics based obscurity seems to be a frustrating way to conduct automated quests.

On a sidenote regarding emails :

I did actually email about a few quests that particularly bothered me. Turns out one has no ending by design and another couple never got finished or that side of the quest was broken.

Moral of the story? My point is that the quest/mob interaction system might need some polishing.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I'm pointy out a legitimate flaw AND offering ways to fix it that retain the intent*. What exactly is the issue here? If you don't think it is perfect the way it is, fine, but I really am going to script my exploration if that is the case.

(*) Assuming the intent is to reward intelligent explorers who read descriptions carefully and that it is not to artificially increase the effort needed to fully explore something by forcing people to examine every item in a room description.

I wonder sometimes if you're trying to come off like an ass or if it's just one of those things that happens most of the time. I really do.

This whole thread feels like an ultimatum to me: give me my way or I'll beat the system my way. Granted, I'm an obstinate kind of guy, but the main thing that approach does is get me to figure out a way that scripting your exploration ####s you in the ear.

>I wonder sometimes if you're trying to come off like an ass
>or if it's just one of those things that happens most of the
>time. I really do.

It happens a lot in text and considerably less so in person. Perhaps I just don't translate well. It also happens when I bring up a concern, and the response ignores that concern or addresses it by making up things I didn't say and then saying that is a stupid way to do it. See blinking lights etc.

>This whole thread feels like an ultimatum to me: give me my
>way or I'll beat the system my way.

It feels this way because you've wasted enough of my time that I'm not going to do it anymore.

>Granted, I'm an obstinate
>kind of guy, but the main thing that approach does is get me
>to figure out a way that scripting your exploration ####s you
>in the ear.

Feel free to, I fully expect it, however I think your energy would be far better applied to making it so my scripting is less advantageous than reading and comprehending. Of course thats what I've been suggesting all along, but no one is listening or even attempting to address that.

So long as examining every word in a description will net me greater results vs time/effort spent on my part than reading it and then trying all the ones I *think* might be special (which takes considerably longer than my script currently), my system wins. I'm not sure why this part of my argument is being ignored. I even provided examples of good (V'dramirs Cove) vs bad (HToS) so you could look and see the difference in how things are concealed.

I really and truly don't care if you change it, I wrote the script last night to recognize a room desc and then pull all the unique words into a list so I can loop through them and examine them. My point has been all along that the system is not working as intended because reading and understanding is punished by wasting an explorer's time and energy examining a lot of things that aren't important instead of reading and understanding allowing you to focus the bulk of your time and energy on those things that are important.

>Feel free to, I fully expect it, however I think your energy
>would be far better applied to making it so my scripting is
>less advantageous than reading and comprehending. Of course
>thats what I've been suggesting all along, but no one is
>listening or even attempting to address that.

Did you? See, I missed that in all the goddamn bitching.

>I really and truly don't care if you change it, I wrote the
>script last night to recognize a room desc and then pull all
>the unique words into a list so I can loop through them and
>examine them.

See, now that's not very hard for me to #### with.

>
>>Feel free to, I fully expect it, however I think your energy
>>would be far better applied to making it so my scripting is
>>less advantageous than reading and comprehending. Of course
>>thats what I've been suggesting all along, but no one is
>>listening or even attempting to address that.
>
>Did you? See, I missed that in all the goddamn
>bitching.

Yea and I missed that wand I was looking for because every room in the area has a desk so why should I continue to examine them. Sucks doesn't it.

>Yea and I missed that wand I was looking for because every
>room in the area has a desk so why should I continue to
>examine them. Sucks doesn't it.

Sure does! Except not for me, because I'm not the one who wants something.

Having a constant sentence, no matter how in character you word it, IS the same has having a blinking light. Anything with a pulse can put a quick trigger to immediatly and automatically see it without having to read anything else. ###THIS MOB CAN SAYTO#### and ###THIS ROOM HAS AN EXTRA### would be echoed on nearly every CF client.

You don't like to explore...you like getting a game advantage from the few times that finding an extra area detail actually has a toy associated with it. That's fine...but don't prance around and try to pass this off as a way to make exploration LESS automated. I hate to break it to you, but extra descriptions and mob saytos just give you more area flavor 99.9% of the time and not 'wands of badass.' As an area writer, if we ever put something in to be a blinking light to point you to the extra description or hidden object I'd never put any useful object in them then, ever.

Having taken off some time from CF, I've come back to a lot of areas I know nothing about. So, mortal side, I've recently spent a lot of time exploring them. I honestly don't understand what the big deal is. I walk into a room, I read the description and as I do my fingers are typing 'exa <noun>' on things that catch my eye. If this yields anything, I read it and explore my options further. If it doesn't...hey, less reading for me and obviously the area writer didn't have anything else to add. This just isn't a big hardship on me and I get a real flavor for the area. Plus, with observation points I get nifty exp and new skills. Yeah, I might miss the occassional extra, but I really don't think I'm missing many. I'm a mudder...I type fast...if 'exa <noun>' didn't work it's just not a big deal since my eyes were busy reading, anyway.

If this procedure is more painful to you than watching a script spam through every word in a description, where you never actually get the benefit of READING the description - painting you the picture of the area...you don't like to explore. I suggest then, that you focus on many of the other aspects CF offers. I'm also going to send Daevryn bribes to ##### with your scripts that much sooner.

Additional life tip...coming off as a complete ass never really makes people want to work with you or your ideas.

>Having a constant sentence, no matter how in character you
>word it, IS the same has having a blinking light. Anything
>with a pulse can put a quick trigger to immediatly and
>automatically see it without having to read anything else.
>###THIS MOB CAN SAYTO#### and ###THIS ROOM HAS AN EXTRA###
>would be echoed on nearly every CF client.

I never said constant sentence, and perhaps that was an oversight on my part, but since I specifically mentioned the part in V'dramirs about catching your eye vs the HToS where every room is the same regardless of whether there is actually something hidden, well I thought I conveyed that sentiment. Obviously I did not.

>You don't like to explore...you like getting a game advantage
>from the few times that finding an extra area detail actually
>has a toy associated with it. That's fine...but don't prance
>around and try to pass this off as a way to make exploration
>LESS automated. I hate to break it to you, but extra
>descriptions and mob saytos just give you more area flavor
>99.9% of the time and not 'wands of badass.' As an area
>writer, if we ever put something in to be a blinking light to
>point you to the extra description or hidden object I'd never
>put any useful object in them then, ever.

I'm glad you know what I do and do not like.

>Additional life tip...coming off as a complete ass never
>really makes people want to work with you or your ideas.

I come off like a complete ass because you people either don't read, or don't understand my points, but always assume that you do. You aren't the only one emotionally invested in CF. I state my opinion, you tell me how wrong and or stupid I am, then I say, no that's actually not what I'm asking for, and you continue to tell me how stupid the thing you think I'm suggesting is and ignoring everything else I say. If I did the same thing to you, you'd be frustrated too. #### I even suggested several *different* things you could use, why the #### would you assume I want a static sentence? #### it, I'm done with this, my script is already good enough that ####ing with it would also mean ####ing over everyone else. It's called natural language processing, and it isn't even that hard. But feel free to screw everyone instead of fixing your room descriptions where 20 rooms have the *exact* same description, but one of them has something hidden. That makes lots of sense. I'm sure Daevryn is totally willing to spend his coding time trying to #### with me instead of doing something worthwhile, especially when I'm not even breaking rules.

I come off like a complete ass because you people either don't read, or don't understand my points, but always assume that you do.

It's a cop-out to claim that everyone who thinks your idea is terrible doesn't understand it. To use an example from another thread, I understood what you wanted the time-contraction thing to do, but I seriously think it's one of the worst ideas posted in a long while, because all it does is turn combat into a button-mashing fest of who can type the fastest, coupled into ridiculously unwieldy technical issues.

What should I tell you? I think it's great but we just don't have time? We'll do it some day? It's probably best for everyone if we just say "Not going to happen.", and give a reason. You may not like the reason, and maybe someday you'll run a MUD and can try it out, but we're under no obligation to do something just because someone keeps posting the same angry rant over and over.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Let's summarize this thread:

Dalneko:  Can we get a boat schedule for the Seaport?  It
seems inordinately difficult to find out when a boat is going
to be there because of factors like knowing the boat name,
finding the NPC that knows, and knowing that's what to look
for to begin with.

 Rayihn:  It is supposed to be difficult to reward exploring.

  Jasmin:  I wasn't aware of sayto.  How do we know a NPC will
talk back? 

   Daevryn: It's been a feature for a while, and the academy
will feature it someday.

   Rayihn:  It came in with Voralian City and there are lots
of places that use it, not just the Seaport.

    Jasmin: Cool, I'll be trying that out, "After a
certain point you just stop talking to mobs because you know
they won't do anything."

     Rayihn:  Sayto with keywords, lots of background in
places.

     Daevryn: Might also be whisperto.  Was in an annoucement
~2 years go.

      Laxman: Yea, I remember this going in, but mostly forgot
about it because it was confined to a single area.  I would
like a way to tell the difference so I don't have to spam
every mob or a list of areas that use it.

       DurNominator:  Yep, Voralian uses it heavily, I
remember exploring it.

        Me:  I agree with Laxman, can we get it so only mobs
with proper names are sayto mobs?  I don't want to waste time
trying to talk to every mob.  Also, I think exploring suffers
from similar problems in that we're expected to examine
everything even though most things aren't there.

         Rayihn:  They're mostly rp stuff.  Don't sweat it. 
If you are looking for areas, try the ones that went in since
Voralian.

          Me:  (Indignant and angry) Ok, I'll script it and
try every mob and every word. --This is probably were I lost
everyone.

           Rayihn:  Seriously, don't sweat it, it's just
little rp stuff anyway, and it should make sense which will
talk and which won't.

            Me:  (Angrier)  Bitching about wasting time trying
to figure out sayto.  Requesting (again) some way to tell the
difference.  Suggesting it be linked with an observation
skill.

             Aodh: Cosign.  The ambiguity of which mobs will
respond and which won't is frustrating since you don't know if
it is you or the mob that is being stupid.

             Rayihn: (Understandably confused about my anger) 
Again, it isn't used that much, I understand the frustration
as I have experienced it myself.

              Me:  Apologizing to Rayihn.  Asking if she
thinks that I (as an example player) would know which mobs in
the seaport respond to sayto.  I didn't know you guys were
adding that stuff to other areas. Complaining about rat trap.

               Vlad:  Rat trap isn't that hard.

            Cyradia:  (From when I first got angry) Tac you
are a jerk.  Are you going to write a script to explore also? 
You just want it to be easy so you don't have to read.  Just
because you don't like to read room descriptions doesn't mean
we're changing it.

             Me:  Writing that script would be easier than
doing it by hand and I can't tell what stuff I should be
looking at by reading the room descriptions.  Example of good:
 Something catches your eye in room description Example of
bad:  The same room description used for 30 rooms where only
one room has a hidden thing.  I do enjoy reading the room
descriptions and such, but want to be rewarded for that
instead of punished by brute forcing the hidden stuff even
though I read the room description.

            Eskelian: (To Cyradia condensing all three post) I
think what we're looking for is consistency in that things
which are special appear special.  I think imms who understand
the mechanics of quests might not understand this frustration.
 I don't like having to know use the OOC knowledge of an
area's age to determine where to try sayto.

             Cyradia:  Sayto is very lenient with phrasing. 
We appreciate the critism.  Don't waste time with sayto, try a
couple phrases on a couple mobs and move on if they don't
work.

              Me: Lenient with phrasing is good, but the
difficulty in determining who speaks is not.  Even trying a
couple phrases on a couple mobs is slightly unreasonable given
the size of CF and that approach would cause you to miss stuff
in the Seaport.  Can we have a way to intelligently discern
speaking mobs from non-speaking mobs?

              Eskelian (2 combined):  There are ALOT of mobs
it isn't practical to try to talk to even a fraction of them. 
If it's RP only - fine, but if it is questy, I don't like
that.  I think the overall quest/mob interaction system needs
polishing.

            Valg: (To Cyradia) Thank you for calling Tac a
jerk (n/t)

             Me: Why are you thanking someone for calling me a
jerk?  I am bringing up something I view as a flaw and trying
to offer suggestions to fix it to work more along the lines of
the original intent instead of the brutish force method I view
it as being now.

              Daevryn: Are you an ass or does it just seem
that way?  We're not going to bow to your
fix-it-or-I'll-script-it ultimatum.  I'd just screw with your
script anyway.

               Me:  I'm not trying to be an ass.  My
understanding is that the system is to designed to reward an
intelligent (human) explorer who reads descriptions, but as
implemented currently seems to reward brute forcing more than
intelligence.  Messing with my script is not as constructive
as fixing the system so that my script is less useful.

                Daevryn:  I didn't listen because you
complained.  Your script is poorly designed.

                 Me: Having to examine everything sucks.

                  Daevryn:  You aren't getting what you want
because you didn't ask me nice enough.
            
            Cyradia: (To me after Valg)  You aren't getting
something which will make exploring trivial.  You don't like
to explore.  Spamming by hand isn't that bad.  I'm going to go
out of my way to make sure your script doesn't work.  

             Me:  I don't want it to be trivial.  I do like to
explore.  If I have to spam it might as well be done by a
script.  I don't know why you think I'm asking for exploring
to be trivial when I'm specifically asking that spamming nouns
be not as useful as reading comprehension.  Instead of wasting
time making my automated spam less useful than your spam by
hand, how about you make spam less useful.

              Valg: (combined with other subthread):  Just
because we don't like your idea doesn't mean we don't
understand it.  Exploration isn't broken, you just aren't good
at it because you lack the skill.  Areas with depth are liked
in the current system.

               Me:  The current system doesn't reward skill it
rewards spam.  People like areas with depth in the current
system because it is less spam between discoveries.  I think
it is stupid that playing like a machine is your intention.

              Eskelian:  This discussion isn't about Kteng's,
remove your emotional investment.  Most areas aren't as deep
as Kteng's.  No one is addressing the security by obscurity
design of hidden stuff.

               Daevryn:  What's your solution?

                Eskelian: (combined stuff):  Feedback on
quests.

                 Daevryn: (combined stuff):  Ok, but different
people get stuck at different places.  Sayto is entirely for
ambiance.  I didn't get stuck on the rat trap quest.  Seaport
boat schedule is easy to brute force.

                Vlad: (To Daevryn's request for solutions) 
Don't make us examine the same keyword over and over by hiding
stuff in one that looks just like all the others.  I don't
usually have a problem with quests and I don't want it handed
to me on a platter, but the current brute force/spam system
isn't very fun for me.

                 Eskelian:  I agree that the system is
tedious.

                 


Now that this is all done, Valg, I would like to say that I
can't see  where in this thread is there a immortal
acknowledgment that that my idea (making brute force less
useful than reading comprehension) is a bad idea.  

I see some that say you all don't want exploring to be
trivial.  

I see you jumping into the thread to attack me instead of my
addressing my point.  

I see Eskelian, Vlad, and Cyradia all stating (in various
ways) that brute force is the current method of choice, and
Me, Vlad, and Eskleian saying that is less than ideal.  

I see myself giving examples of what room descriptions could
read like to conceal hidden items in a way that rewards
comprehension.

I see me suggesting something similar to mobs that respond to
sayto.  

Perhaps it's reader bias, that I understand what I am trying
to say better than I can understand what you all are actually
writing, I don't know.  Please enlighten me.

CF is a roleplaying game. Just RP with the mobs like your
character would. If they respond, nice, if they don't.. no big
deal. You don't have to discover every sayto. As for scripting
your sayto's just in case some mob you don't consider
important and trying to bruteforce it out.. How good RP is
that?

However, the syntax is a different matter. The sayto syntax
should be lenient, to give room for different kinds of RP
choises. One example of this is Simon's newbie quest, where
people have to say exactly the right thing to trigger the mob
response(This can be a RP issue for giants who'd say things
like 'Blorg is here for delivery' instead of 'I'm here for the
delivery'.). Also, I think that answer to a question by
certain sphinx(which becomes more complicated in fantasy
context and to people who've heard the riddle in another
language) and the certain riddle answers in an area explore
have too rigid a syntax. Also, guessing the right wording for
getting into some ships can be a pain.

As for common mobs like guards, it would be nice if guards in
Voralian would answer to questions like "Excuse me, but
where can I find Dorothy?" and their variants. Or where
can I find food? Or such. Guard NPC's could do a lot in
helping newbies finding their way. If you create an atmosphere
where you can trust the local guard to help you in finding
your way..

I agree with you in idea, but the code doesn't really support
that.  You have to tell it to look for specific things to
respond to.  So unless we update Simon's quest to respond to
every possible variation of what someone *might* say (and
there's no way we'd get them all) you can't really make it
more flexible.  I know what you mean about those riddle
answers...Vodka?  Schnapps?  Bruske?  Heh.

[i]I agree with you in idea, but the code doesn't really
support
that.[/i]

Ok. I thought you could make it trigger like '* here *
delivery.', where * is a wildcard. With the same instruction
given, it could have helped in giving some rp flexibility. Or
maybe here + for + delivery as multiple keywords, allowing
some variation of the theme(not perfect, but better than
all-rigid)?

>I know what you mean about those riddle
>answers...Vodka?  Schnapps?  Bruske?  Heh.

All of the above being wrong, as they end in question mark.
Woe is the fool who guessed 'House.' when the real answer was
'House', typed without a dot in the end(made-up answer, of
course.). On the RP side, I wouldn't be surprised if just
saying the word somewhere in the sentence triggered it. How
would the magic know better? Dunno if this has already been
adressed, but that's how it was when I last was there.

Would the code be capable of integrating an open source
regular expression library? 

>CF is a roleplaying game. Just RP with the mobs like your
>character would. If they respond, nice, if they don't.. no big
>deal. You don't have to discover every sayto. As for scripting
>your sayto's just in case some mob you don't consider
>important and trying to bruteforce it out.. How good RP is
>that?
>
I heart this part of this post.


>However, the syntax is a different matter. The sayto syntax
>should be lenient, to give room for different kinds of RP
>choises. One example of this is Simon's newbie quest, where
>people have to say exactly the right thing to trigger the mob
>response(This can be a RP issue for giants who'd say things
>like 'Blorg is here for delivery' instead of 'I'm here for the
>delivery'.). Also, I think that answer to a question by
>certain sphin which becomes more complicated in fantasy
>context and to people who've heard the riddle in another
>language) and the certain riddle answers in an area explore
>have too rigid a syntax. Also, guessing the right wording for
>getting into some ships can be a pain.

Please read the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of this post for a little clarification between sayto mob love and earlier quests. http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=45&topic_id=123&mesg_id=150&page=

Also, I mean it where I say if you're in a quest and you find the rigid syntax especially difficult (and it's not one of the situations I describe) to tell us. We're constantly improving things, and nobody wants a quest hang-up to be about direct syntax.

>
>As for common mobs like guards, it would be nice if guards in
>Voralian would answer to questions like "Excuse me, but where
>can I find Dorothy?" and their variants. Or where can I find
>food? Or such. Guard NPC's could do a lot in helping newbies
>finding their way. If you create an atmosphere where you can
>trust the local guard to help you in finding your way..

I don't disagree with this in theory, but in practice that's a lot of mobs to add that function on. Given a common newbie quest, I can see why you've picked Dorothy and VC guards (and someone else might dig this enough to toss that in.) However, that could pretty easily become a slippery slope. I'm not prepared to write directions to every key mob in a city on every guard, and if you hook a newbie onto that as a way to get around it could disappoint them when it ended up working in only a few situations. Although I love the RP angle of a newbie walking up to a guard and being like, 'Hey, where's that baker Dorothy?' and him answering, I personally think it makes more since to sink time into developing a good helpfile system and set of cheap maps for purchase to help newbies.

>>CF is a roleplaying game. Just RP with the mobs like your
>>character would. If they respond, nice, if they don't.. no
>big
>>deal. You don't have to discover every sayto. As for
>scripting
>>your sayto's just in case some mob you don't consider
>>important and trying to bruteforce it out.. How good RP is
>>that?
>>
>I heart this part of this post.

I would tend to agree. Also, since I know (now) that sayto is mostly an rp tool, it would seem unnecessary. That doesn't change the issue I have with hidden containers, but in light of new information I think sayto is workable. It would be nice if we could please have an updated sayto helpfile that mentions some of the things we've learned in this thread. I realize that you all have very very little motivation to acquiesce to an request made by me, but I'll ask anyway.

>> I don't disagree with this in theory, but in practice that's a lot of mobs to add that function on. Given a common newbie quest, I can see why you've picked Dorothy and VC guards (and someone else might dig this enough to toss that in.) However, that could pretty easily become a slippery slope. I'm not prepared to write directions to every key mob in a city on every guard, and if you hook a newbie onto that as a way to get around it could disappoint them when it ended up working in only a few situations. Although I love the RP angle of a newbie walking up to a guard and being like, 'Hey, where's that baker Dorothy?' and him answering, I personally think it makes more since to sink time into developing a good helpfile system and set of cheap maps for purchase to help newbies.

You could make this pretty automated.

Sayto guard Where's dorothy?
guard says 'Give me a piece of paper and a pen and i'll write down the directions for you. '
give pen guard
give paper guard
Guard writes down a map marking out dorothy and a suggested path there.
guard gives you the map and your pen back

So when you ask a guard for directions, he gives you directions to the same mob that you would get if you do 'where <mobname>.. It would take a bit of coding to automatically generate maps to specific mobs in an area, but I think it's pretty doable. And not too boring a project :p

Of course you could add all sorts of twists and restrictions to this. Evil guards demanding money, good guards refusing to help evils, chaotic guards might send you to a pig pen or brothel instead...

I think Cyradia covered those points well enough. You're viewing exploration as a necessary process to be optimized. She's viewing it as an end to itself, and how a lot of players enjoy exploring a new place, and using their brains to puzzle out what does and doesn't lead somewhere. I don't see the current system as broken, therefore I don't see a need for a fix, and your attitude sure isn't convincing me to do extra work when I could be making someone else happy instead.

(As a specific example, if you ask Joe Captain about his sword and he responds, do you get 1000 gold pieces? No. Does he give you the sword? No. He tells you a little more about the sword. It's no different than an obscure 'examine' detail, and the more shadowed corners are what really draws people into an area. The vast majority of NPCs that respond to speech are in this category.)

Not everyone is good at exploration, just like not everyone is good at PK. It's about what you like and what you apply your brainpower to.

When you ask people what their favorite areas are, it nearly always includes areas with a lot of depth and hidden detail. That isn't a coincidence-- people appreciate areas where player skill is rewarded, and player skill isn't purely measured by how many NPCs you can kill.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

which is why automation is so easy. Setting up a bot to spam invoker spells isn't very hard either. Is it a measure of player skill how long it takes them to perfect spells as an invoker? How about competing effectively in PK? How easy would it be to write a pk bot? Humans are good at some thing, and computers are good at others, unfortunately you fail to make this distinction in some areas, which is why a chase trigger is effective, and why exploration can be so frustrating. BTW Player skill isn't at all measured by how many NPCs you can kill, and I'm not sure why you would suggest something that is provably false.

The reason people like areas with a lot of detail is because they are rewarded more often for being intelligent. Ktengs has ALOT of stuff to examine, and you are unlikely to run into a desk or chest or painting there that doesn't have a description. This means that you aren't wasting time examining things that aren't interesting. It means that the area has depth and story that is slowly revealed. It doesn't mean that examining every single word in every single description in the area and then ignoring all the stuff that isn't special wouldn't be as effective, but it would hardly be as rewarding. Of course I would probably still pick the latter because otherwise I'm going to miss something I would have found because my definition of what I should examine and the author's definition are highly unlikely to align perfectly. It isn't about optimizing my exploring, but rather about discovering the whole story. Who wants to read a book where half the chapters are missing and worse, you can't even be sure of that unless you examine in excruciating detail every square millimeter of the book to see if there is text there that you wouldn't normally notice?

My attitude is a reflection of just how stupid I think this is, and by association has stupid I think the collective imm position has been in not seeing that I want to be rewarded for playing like human instead of playing like a machine.

I think the issue here is that you're taking this whole thread as a stab at Kteng's, which it isn't.

Ironically if every area was written like Kteng's, this discussion probably wouldn't exist.

Rather, most areas are written like Arial City. Some are written differently. Some still, conceal quest rewards obscurely by hiding one working keyword amongst 1000 that don't.

That has nothing to do with skill. And most importantly, this has nothing to do with Kteng's. No one's really addressing my statement which is that obscurity by sticking a working keyword into 5000 that don't isn't a matter of skill.

I think this is a general overview regarding quests, which I've made similar statements before so maybe I'm beating a dead horse. It also isn't bitching, I'm just stating that they might be done in a better more consistent way which would be less punishing to players who expect consistency.

What's your solution?

Active feedback with players on which parts of the quest seemed too difficult to accomplish reasonably. Which took an extraordinary amount of time, which seemed random and illogical...etc.

There should be a certain flow to a quest, a logical series of conclusions which lead to a final result. I think the biggest issue is its hard for an imm mindset to accurately debug the difficulty of a quest to non-imm players. I think by incorporating feedback into the system and polishing it for consistency you could mitigate these issues. Additionally btw, this feedback would have to offer a level of immunity that you aren't going to siteban the guy if he's honest. If I'm like "Hey, I couldn't find the rat trap for 2 hours so I asked someone over IRC" or something, banning me would just disincentive me from giving back honest opinions.

And for ambiance, I think sayto is cool beans. I just think in an automated quest it can be too obscure.

That's my solution. Maybe push people to trying quests and then get their feedback in game, as a way to facilitate this process. Especially if the quest is extremely obscure.

>Active feedback with players on which parts of the quest
>seemed too difficult to accomplish reasonably. Which took an
>extraordinary amount of time, which seemed random and
>illogical...etc.

Hey, go nuts and e-mail those things to us.

The thing I've always struggled with a bit here, especially with respect to the Silent Tower, is that everyone struggles with like 20% of the puzzles... except it's never the same 20% for anyone.

A lot (not all!) of the feedback I have gotten I haven't found super helpful either. Like, I remember one guy who was convinced he had figured out the key phrase to make a progged piece of equipment work (he had) and had tried to invoke that phrase, say it, yell it, all manner of things and why didn't it work? It's because he wasn't wearing the item. Do you change something like that? I'd like to think the answer is no.

>And for ambiance, I think sayto is cool beans. I just think in
>an automated quest it can be too obscure.

I don't think there's currently an area other than Loch Grynmear which really offers anything but ambiance for interrogating NPCs, FYI.

(Seaport Boat schedule is arguably not ambiance, but that's also easy as hell to brute force as a new explorer... you hang around, boats show up.)

I think I'm tainted because I've completed many of these quests long ago. I will say that the runes/menhir quest is a good quest, whereas I feel like the rat trap thing is just way too obscure for the reward you get. I think this would have to be done mostly with first time quest perusers, ideally while being watched. I'm not talking about silent tower as I haven't had the chance to dig much into it.

I mean, I could write an email with my thoughts on the 30 or so quests I know and which parts specifically seem hindered by game mechanics but I'm not sure if it would be as valuable as just watching a newbie try to do said quest without cheating. I will say that the ones I'm talking about probably aren't the ones you're thinking of. And some of the quests I'm talking about aren't quests at all, but seem like they should be or could be (like that email I sent you, about that door in the goblin village) which actually aren't quests at all (the most frustrating kind).

>I will say that the runes/menhir quest is a
>good quest, whereas I feel like the rat trap thing is just way
>too obscure for the reward you get.

This is always sort of interesting to me because the first time I got to that point in the quest, I was immediately like 'where (mob that you're looking for)' and there it was, and I couldn't figure out why anyone else had problems with that.

Conversely, the mob that tells you to talk to the mob that hires you for that quest didn't used to provide you with the exact phrasing you needed, and #### if I ever got that to work right until that was changed.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

>I mean, I could write an email with my thoughts on the 30 or
>so quests I know and which parts specifically seem hindered by
>game mechanics but I'm not sure if it would be as valuable as
>just watching a newbie try to do said quest without cheating.
>I will say that the ones I'm talking about probably aren't the
>ones you're thinking of. And some of the quests I'm talking
>about aren't quests at all, but seem like they should be or
>could be (like that email I sent you, about that door in the
>goblin village) which actually aren't quests at all (the most
>frustrating kind).

Start a petition to get that quest finished up and I'll send it to the area author.

(rant)
My last two heroes bribed, cajoled, begged, and coerced three different ways into ST from various sources, all of them corroborated via other characters, and none of the obtained ways worked.

I look forward to someday seeing your masterpiece, Nep. *shakes fist impotently*
(/rant)

If I'm aware someone is looking, I generally throw them a bone one way or another.

If!

I think what would go a long way towards helping break the rut of the current easter egg type exploration is just to not have 50 of the same item in one area and only one that actually IS something. Since HTOS was used as an example in another part of the thread and thus won't give anything away if I use it, I'll do so. Why would I, when I am in an area, expect the keyword desk to work and actually be anything, when 49 out of 50 times when I type it I get "You do not see that here" or even just the same standard desk description every time but one?

I've got little enough problem figuring out exploration and keywords when there's some consistency. But if I'm in an area and looking at room descriptions (Which FYI I am generally forced to do until late in my characters life, since I always roll as a new player so I have extended use of the newbie channel to help out new players. On a side note I think thats something that should be an option. Instead of "Are you new?" being the only way to keep use of the newbie channel, maybe also add a "Would you like extended use of the newbie channel?" if you answer no to "are you new?") and the first 10 times I try to examine an item in a room desc, and every other room has the same item in it with nothing to catch my eye, why would I think it would be helpful to try and examine said item again?

I'm not saying I want things to be handed to me on a platter, because frankly that would bore the #### out of me. But I also don't think I should have to run around examining (fruitlessly in some cases) the same keyword over and over in an effort to find an easter egg. I'll give another example. There is an area (A damn good area at that) that has paintings, tapestries and statues all over the place. Walking around examining each of these items in each of the rooms they are in takes probably upwards of 2 hours (if you account also for the aggros). Not a one of them has anything special about them other than they can be looked at. If you were to suddenly slip a hidden container into one of them, why would I ever be reasonably expected to find it?

Do you see where I'm going with this? It's just not FUN walking around from room to room looking at the same keywords over and over just in an effort to be the first (or fifty first) to find some secret cool thing. Is it really a huge effort to put a tiny something in the room desc that catches the eye of the people who are actually paying attention? I get not wanting to reward people who run around with brief on, using walkthroughs and not roleplaying. But if I am actually paying attention and taking the time to read a rooms description as I explore, should I still need to look at each one and think "Okay, how many words here could possibly be keywords" and then try them all out? That doesnt sound like either fun or like roleplaying. It's just grind and process of elimination. You're not actually "figuring" anything out then, you're just grinding and grinding and ticking off of a checklist of possible keywords.

>I've got little enough problem figuring out exploration and
>keywords when there's some consistency. But if I'm in an area
>and looking at room descriptions (Which FYI I am generally
>forced to do until late in my characters life, since I always
>roll as a new player so I have extended use of the newbie
>channel to help out new players. On a side note I think thats
>I'll give another example. There is an
>area (A damn good area at that) that has paintings, tapestries
>and statues all over the place. Walking around examining each
>of these items in each of the rooms they are in takes probably
>upwards of 2 hours (if you account also for the aggros). Not a
>one of them has anything special about them other than they
>can be looked at. If you were to suddenly slip a hidden
>container into one of them, why would I ever be reasonably
>expected to find it?

The point isn't that you are expected to find it, it's that it's a little something to reward your diligent exploration. It's there to break the tedium. But I agree with you that it's tiresome to look for the same keywords over and over again. The desks, etc. should at least be somewhat different. Consider dropping link(or are there any quit rooms there?) and returning later to explore the rest the next time the area wears you out early on(knowing how hard it can be to get in, which ofter wears me down) and you still have stuff to explore.

That's fine. But I think one of my points was also that there is not even a hint of what to ask the particular mob as far as this so-called schedule goes. I don't know about you, but having my character spending 30 hours or so in-game talking to a mob that doesn't even respond to any of the questions or comments I make is not fun for such a low-level area that is not even an area explore. I'm pretty sure when I look at the desc there's no indication that he can be spoken to using sayto. Even if you go around randomly using sayto to every mob there, if you do find the right mob you won't know because unless you ask the very specific question there will be no reaction whatsoever. Maybe this would be a (one) reason why majority of people are unfamliar with this aspect of the game?

Nevermind there would be no point, imho, to figure out the schedule thing if you're just going to sit on the docks to wait for ships anyways.

EDIT: My bad if this totally blows open your area. In retrospect I should've taken this to email but I'm a loser and didn't think this through before I posted.

I think we should agree to disagree. I know it's difficult when you're writing an area because you obviously know how everything is supposed to be and it's hard to look at it with a blind eye, but I do think I left some casual hints around and someone who was used to using sayto with mobs would probably figure it out ok. I also don't think it's absolutely necessary that you know the schedule.

I have spent a fair amount of time nosing around the docks,
and noticed a few things that kinda irked me
Certain boats that sell things, have times! And that would be fine if they always showed up during sales times, but considering how rare two of the boats are in question thats really kind of a pain considering what they have to offer vs how exposed you are waiting on the boat that probly won't show up on time or will get overlapped by another more common boat.
I also feel that a few boats, hmm, need to stay a little longer, due to their rarety I can't just sling their names offhand. Just simply because by the time you figure out whats going on the boat, its gone poof, and won't be back for a ingame month.

Sorry for the rant, I like the area, and I like how its progressing!

PS the boat with the items you give to the guy should come just a smidge more often? Please? =P

The seaport is a damn nice place and I just wanted to say it is a very nice write. I love it!

Likewise to say, I think Jasmin has a very good point. It would have been better if there is a sign or the dock master may say something, so people can be triggered to know someone is speaking to him/her. Think assassins and thieves can't trigger lots of speech quests since they are always hiding.

I mean no one is asking for spoon-feeding, giving answers out or the like. It's like the Simon guy in the caverns in Academy. New players will tend to think quests are handed out like this. A small trigger might help. Eg. The dock master turns to you as you approach, or the dock master calls out, "More ships coming in. Get your entries here!"

---
It's back to re-visiting those places that I think quests exist but never figured out how to trigger them.

'Sayto' is overpowered. Sigh.