| |
|
#242, "The Watcher vs the Imperial Inners"
|
Ok, I know this particular horse has been kicked around pretty well, but I think it still needs to be brought up again. The Fortress inner guardian is just a joke, and the cabal is seriously disadvantaged.
On the one hand, we have the Empire. They already have a HUGE numbers advantage in their PC ranks. They (arguably) get their powers far easier (and earlier) since they don't need to wait for Immortal intervention to get a promotion (which in the fortress is generally much closer to hero ranks than not). They have four inner guardians, who all hit and do special maledicting attacks to people every round. These special attacks can quickly and easily drop even the most prepped person down to 3 str/dex, along with some plague, poison, and a nice healing curse to top it off. Their best defenders (Imperial healers) get insanely powerful black shroud and a beefy mana redux. They get Centurions, early warning system, extra control over a (possibly, if done corrently) HUGE area of the mud, with little cost involved. A fair deterrant to lower ranked people attempting a raid, and if applied correctly at the edge of an area, can completely immobalize an opponent.
Then we have the mighty Fortress. We have to get an imm to advance us. The powers aren't tailored to our class like the Imperial powers are (IE Shadow Sect gets the no-pink #### power, Divines get black shroud, so no powers are ever useless for them as Imperials) so we often times have powers that are utterly useless to us. (For a warrior, thief, ranger etc spiritual link would be meaningless, and altruism almost a certain death, in a crisis. Spirit sight never saved anyones life, especially when most in the Fortress have detect evil, or buy the potions anyway) We have one inner guardian, The Watcher. He hits once or twice a round. Once in a while he'll wrath, unless you're better off being hit with a flamestrike, then he does that. As far as he goes, thats it. No maledicting. No broken bones. No bleeding skin. Hell, he doesn't even hurt your feelings. The Fortresses best defender, for comparisons sake we'll say an Acolyte healer, gets normal sanc. Gets in fact no extra protection spells to use on cabal guardian of any kind. As a matter of fact, the Imperial healer gets a mana redux too. So the Imperial healer gets all of the "generous" (IE not for oneself only) protection powers the Acolyte healer gets, and still more. The Fortress healer, defender of the light, and puppies and ####, gets less protection power than an Imperial healer. Our early warning system is some jackass yelling over the cabal channel "They're here!" 30 seconds after the Maran starts yelling. We don't get fancy roadblocks. We don't get extra hard hitting mobs to help us out. Hell, we don't even get any lowbie raiding deterrant (and let me tell you, lowbie imperials are always around in numbers) to help us.
These are just the raiding difficulties. There's a whole host of other gross imbalances floating around. (IE Emperor getting as much and as many powers as he does, Captain or marshall gets a weapon inferior to many they could be otherwise using*) Imperial inductions are a gazillion times easier, they don't need leaders on to get inducted. Our leaders are CONSTANTLY M.I.A. so we're always at a serious numbers disadvantage.
Also, the conduct of the players involved is a pretty wide gulf. I've seen and heard things being done when I was an Imperial by my cabalmates that I would fully expect one of the Fortress to get smacked down for HARD by an Imm. (Over the top OOC comments over the cabal channel, blatant OOC spamming/harassment of players by Imperials) The RP standard for Imperials is much lower than it is for those in the Fortress, and yet they clearly have many more advantages than those in the Fortress get.
I mean, these problems aren't new. They've all been brought up before in one form or another. I just wanted to lay them all out like this, and hopefully get some feedback from you about just what, if anything, is being done to maybe fix some of the balance issues.
I enjoy playing my character, but when I'm the only one on from my cabal that I ever see, and I have to constantly deal with 6 or more foes from an opposing cabal, it starts to get really old after a while, and I'm not the first to bring up any one of these points so I know at least some others feel the same way I do.
*The weapons made for Maran leaders are nice, and a really nice RP touch, but certainly not nearly as useful as the full range of powers available to the Emperor. It's not even anything approaching close.
|
|
|
|
 I've said it before, and I'll say it again,
Coronado (Guest),
15-Nov-04 08:08 AM, #5
  Just so you know...,
Graatchman (Guest),
15-Nov-04 10:24 AM, #6
 By the way, from personal experience with the Watcher.....,
Straklaw,
14-Nov-04 11:53 PM, #4
  From my own personal experience...,
Shisi (Guest),
16-Nov-04 04:40 AM, #7
 Just a small note:,
Grurk Muouk,
14-Nov-04 11:14 AM, #1
 Thats alright there are 0 Fortress healers too.,
Vinulurt (Guest),
14-Nov-04 04:05 PM, #2
 RE: Thats alright there are 0 Fortress healers too.,
Straklaw,
14-Nov-04 11:46 PM, #3
| |
| |
|
#247, "I've said it before, and I'll say it again"
In response to Reply #0
|
The four imperial inners are a rp consequence from actions of mine. I was a priest of Zulghinlour, turned into a priest of Shokai. As a punishment for my betrayal, Zulgh had my ghost slay the Omegus, and was replaced with four guardians. I would suggest if you want this portion of your complaint changed, it will have to be IC.
|
|
|
|
|   | |
|
#248, "Just so you know..."
In response to Reply #5
|
That was the plan long before you existed, long before the Empire actually existed again. When Onglaurst approached me as Darmok, we had several conversations. Among them was one about the form of the Empire once it was established again. He said that each sect would have its own guardian (as it does) and that each sect would have its own inner guardian (as it does).
I don't diminish Coronado's ic importance, as he was the catalyst for the change in-game, but ooc? No. This was the plan all along. Like everything else, the imms had a plan for change and went about doing it, coding it, etc., until it was all set and they thought ready to implement. Then, they look at the playerbase and figure out an ic way to get it done. You happened to be around at the right time, so they used your action as the excuse for something they had planned for many months.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Straklaw | Sun 14-Nov-04 11:53 PM |
Member since 10th Mar 2003
1014 posts
|  |
|
#246, "By the way, from personal experience with the Watcher....."
In response to Reply #0
|
I tend to think the Watcher actually is a much better defender in mass-battles. Let's assume for example, there are five Empire and five Fortress on. From what I've dealt with from the Watcher, he tends to get a little pissy when there's lots of people raiding. That area wrath attack thing-which, by the way, you forgot to mention-seems to do more damage and of course, area attack. Compare this to the Empire. Their inners just do the same old same old, but they die faster, and compare getting half-way done with a raid on each with one strike. You do half the damage needed on the watcher....no differance. Do half the damage needed against Empire, they're down two guardians. Means you're taking less damage, less maledictions, and can beat the other two down even quicker. Anyways...yeah, the Watcher could be a bit more varied...all other inner guardians do some form of malediction, rather than pure damage, but don't go TOO far off the end that the Watcher's useless.
|
|
|
|
|   | |
|
#249, "From my own personal experience..."
In response to Reply #4
|
From what I've noticed, if there are five people raiding, the watcher will be dead in under ten rounds anyway. The prelate in particular, by having sanc, slows how long it takes to slay all four of the Imperial inners. Although from what I noticed, five on five raids will usually take place at the two sets of Centurions before they even reach the inners, and will even usually be resolved before team Fort even reaches the Vanquisher.
If team evil were to raid the Fort in numbers of five, the primary battle would have to take place at the outer, who would fall in timely fashion anyway(due to the 20 second warning if we're lucky), assuming that the Forties weren't summoned one by one to it by the Imperial Gank-Amplifying power black circle(as well as the protection from summoning that prevents THEM from being ganked). Once team Empire moves to the inner, the watcher becomes little more than a meat shield, especially if it's five on five combat. It doesn't deal significant enough damage, or have the crippling powers of say...the assassin with it's wristbreaking, ESPECIALLY the prelate with the healing curse, etc etc, to make much difference in the fight other than being a distraction.
Another small difference between the two cabals about those healers(that just don't exist right now). The way they are laid out, most Fortie healers are going to be acolytes who can't(according to the path they chose) even follow the raiding party INTO the Imperial inners to lay down some mass healing(assuming you aren't healing cursed), or to help in their own small way with those Imperials waiting for you at the inners. The Empire doesn't have this restriction at all, nor does any other cabal who can have healers for that matter, unless it is the personal choice of the healer. It's even more relevant with the current lack of Brigade members physically able(High enough level) to survive a raid into the inners with any sort of efficiency.
Of course, Empire doesn't have as much potential for Invokers/transmuters as the Fortress does, even though most mages end up Scribes/Acolytes anyway. This being because being a Maran mage gives you litte more benefit(The powers are really made to compliment fighting types)than being an Imperial mage, aside from that whole lack of respect thing.
I also won't disregard the promotion thing, and powers geared towards the sect thing, because I realize that in this department Imperials also have a small advantage. Maran powers in general are helpful for any class that relies on weapons(which is what most Maran are going to be). Given, I would say they are more helpful to Maran warriors than those given to the blade sect. The shadow powers are nice for them, and divine powers are nicer for them than they are for Maran shaman(and rare healer). Should we talk about Acolyte powers, they aren't much more useful for defending, and definately not as powerful in the protection department as Black Shroud. And of course they ALL get the magic of Centurions, which can't be rivaled in usefullness in cabal wars by any other cabal power. Of course, it isn't really the Maran way to complain IC, so that's not a viable solution.
I will make a final comment that despite these inequalities I'm still having fun with my character most of the time, as I had with my other Fortie. This is probably an issue in part becuase so often Fort attendence in hero range is not what it used to be during my play times, or what I'd like it to be, and that naturally would make it less fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grurk Muouk | Sun 14-Nov-04 11:14 AM |
Member since 15th Mar 2004
538 posts
| |
|
#243, "Just a small note:"
In response to Reply #0
|
Their best defenders (Imperial healers) get insanely powerful black shroud and a beefy mana redux.
There currently are zero (0) imperial healers.
As for your other comments, I will leave for Shokai to stab at, since it's his board.
Thanks,
Grurk
|
|
|
|
|   | |
|
#244, "Thats alright there are 0 Fortress healers too."
In response to Reply #1
|
That was a "best defender" example. Currently, the best healer the fortress has is a paladin.
|
|
|
|
|