Here's the way I see it. The Fortress is comprised of at least Marans and Acolytes, whom have totally different duties. The Acolytes purpose is to be the defenders of the Fortress, and accordingly are given the succor power. Granted, I've always thought the lag should be reduced on it.

Now, being that each does have different responsibilities, they need to uhhh...actually follow that cabal RP. I've noticed a few Acolytes do things that in my opinion are odd in accordance to cabal RP.

Having said that, the amount of support the Fortress cabal can have is what should keep their guardians the way they are.

The Fortress can have any class save a druid, a necromancer, and an anti-paladin. The classes that can get don't have to necessarily be any lesser in value than the other classes. To clarify this, Empire for example does not have an arcane influence(except in rare cases). That means their players generally won't have transmuter or invoker magic upon them and won't have a shapeshifter. The Scions will tend to not have warrior type characters. The Outlanders have similar drawbacks. The Village is similar drawbacks. The Fortress on the other hand, doesn't.

About Celebrimbor's post that inner/outer guardians should not have any relation to the current playerbase in the Fortress...I agree. However, I do think there should be correlation between what support a cabal can have and how strong their cabal inner/outer is.

If you don't believe me, believe the IMM's. The Destructor is a badass mofo. Why? Because the Destructor will never be shielded, will never have sanctuary, and well won't even be healed as well as healers(that every other cabal can have).

Hrm...it could be that they need a boost. It could be they don't, I'll look them over and chat with some of my immly peers and see what conclusions we come to. The fortress itself has been 'round for a decent while now, and even though the cabal was somewhat overhauled in terms of how Maran/Acolytes work together just a little while ago...there have been some changes here and there that are certainly worth looking at in terms of guardians.

Not saying anything will change obviously, but I'll poke around a bit. Glad you dig the cabal, thanks for the feedback, and keep enjoying yourself. Oh, for you and anyone else who sees things like this...as a whole we (the collective staff) are almost always willing to look at something at check it for over/under poweredness when asked nicely and presented facts (kinda like above) as opposed to whines, complaints, or outright venting (as was pretty abset from above, yay!). Just felt like tossing that in here, as I think there are times people are worried that we'll see 'constructive scrutinizing' as whining or complaining. For the most part we don't (there are always exceptions in situation and personalities) so, if you see something that might need a look over....present your concerns, some facts to back it up...and we'll see what we can do. The key is not to expect any change to come from the post. A lot of times we look over something and decide it's perfectly fine where it is, but there are times when we look over it and think 'wow, this needs x or y changed.'

Anyway, pardon the tangent...thanks for the note.

The maran doesn't benefit from the same nifty mantle abilities when dealing with invokers. (purposely vague) And a mid 30's assassin today was killing the watcher heh.

I only recently read this post and I to agree with him.

First up I want to start with a good thing, love the cabal and everything. Great fun!

I know its not good to compare because they are all different, but scions soften, slow, fumble, weaken etc etc inner powers. Imperials blind, healing curse, kote, kans, etc etc.

Well thats kind of my drift. I know that the Maran has an immunity or two from memory but it to, in my eyes, seems a little unhealthy compared to other outers, and when I played an imperial healer, it was really easy to kill the inner (then again black sanc does that) but the resists as well. An it isnt as if the resist needed is especially hard to get.

Just my 2 cents.

Lets compare something that happened today. I'm Captain of the Brigade. hero paladin, nice pair of virtues for killing evil things, decent all around hps, mana, hit, dam, saves blah blah. Usually I can solo the Imperial inners in just a few minutes without having to worry too much.

Now, add to the mix one level 26 healer. Before even the first inner has fallen, thanks to the healing curse, kans, kot, caltraps, sigil of pain, blindness and poison I now have on me, I have to flee or die.

Add a level 26 healer alone to defend the watcher, and all you have is a slight delaying tactic, since there's no maledictions involved.

Add a healer to the Archmage, and it's not nearly as bad either. I don't think the Watcher is necessarily weaker than most, I just think the Imperials being set up the way they are is way more powerful.

I betrayed Zulghinlour during my command of the fortress, and as a punishment after my death, the palace inners were made like that. Maybe we could attempt to beef up our own, or tone down the empire's ic? Your thoughts Shokai?

I agree with what the fortress players are saying. However, given the numbers of active fortress players, I don't think now is the time to increase the strength of their guardian.

But what about a lvl 51 paladin, lvl 51 paladin, lvl 51 paladin, lvl 51 paladin, lvl 51 shifter, lvl 51 invoker?

Saying cabal numbers should not be considered is like saying let's keep it unfair for 3 months and then reevaluate. Guardians should be, if they aren't already, based on the number of active members logged in at a given time. It would be easy enough to assign a 'value' to defenders in coordination with their strengths in defending.

Warrior = 1
Paladin = 2
Transmuter = 2
Healer = 3

etc etc...

The numbers in the Fort right now aren't what you seem to imply. They've had a lot of deletions in the last week.

its still a pain with all the healing they do.

>its still a pain with all the healing they do.

So, uh, have you been turning this response over in your head for the past two years?

First of all if someone is able to solo your inner cabal guardian is not really a reason to buff it up. I've had characters that have been able to solo the big D before ragers could get there to defend. As for pre-heroes taking down the inner, it also happens alot to other cabals. It is not a rare occurence when a rank 40 rager takes down the archmage in one shot. The common thing being no defenders there at the time.

As for maledictions and types of attacks, the role of the inner guardian has to be looked at. The watcher is not a mage or assassin. Therefore he doesn't have spells like the archmage (soften, fumble, blindness etc.) or kot kans like the imperial assassin. He does have a few holy and fire attacks based on the cabal rp.

What the fortress has is alot of powers to make up for this(Acolyte and Maran). Also the set up of the cabal is very different than other cabals to give the defenders an advantage (once they work as a team). Once you have skilled defenders there, the situation pretty much balances out itself.

>Once you have skilled defenders there, the situation pretty much balances out itself.

The inner guardians for the cabals ought to be balanced out without figuring defenders into the mix. To do it otherwise relies too heavily on certain factors that are too shifting to be reliable.

I think the Maran and Watcher SHOULD remain easy. Fortress numbers are very high right now. As one of the lone Scions, it would be unfair from my perspective to beef up the outer. I wouldn't be able to initiate a strike quick enough to kill it and GTFO without 5 Maran showing up wanting to slap me into oblivion. As it stands, Maran are more likely than any other cabal aside from perhaps Tribunal to hang ten at the Fort waiting for someone to raid. *Especially* given the fact that many, many Maran/Aco's have the ability to heal or protect them in some fashion, upping the guards is overkill imho.

The fort folk HAVE to hang out there because if they move
ANYWHERE then the maran is down and the watcher mostly dead
before anyone can get there.
I would word (lived in eryn gaelin<sp> race to the fort
and the watcher would be far more than half gone, no way
could i get to the outer in time unless it was a lowbie striking
in which case i couldn't do anything anyway.
for fort you pretty much have to be from the runied city
or sit around the fortress, well unless you don't have anyone
else's items.

Anyway we will see in a bit, fort is deleting like flies.
I was just going to work on an evil, but now goodie's will
be down again, I tend to prefer the underdog.
*grumble* But I am just plain tired of being good for the moment.

I can think of two Maran/Aco powers that allow instantaneous movement back to the Fort. Ah well. Roll that evil you little bugger.

Not so quick there, fella. Acolyte, yes, but the maran power assumes a maran is already there, and fighting the invader, which is the problem in the first place, i.e. that nobody can get back in time, so there is no one for the maran to cry to.

But I think you would agree that there *are* two modes of instantaneous transport back to the Fort. For other cabals, there are zero (not counting Galadon tribs wording back to Galadon to defend the spire).

Actually I would disagree. Only a very small percentage can send people back to the fort, namely acolytes, and only marans can cry, and only to other marans. Considering how few full marans and acolytes there are, it's almost negligible.

I'd also say that you can't just "not count" galadon tribs. They can. And for both the empire and scion, you are right next to the hamsah recall. Especially you scions. And you get that little bit of safety. As one log of Celebrimbor made obvious, getting sent back to the outer guardian is a deathtrap when the raiders are all there and you're alone.

In the end, very very few can get back to the fortress, and you can get back to the chasm just about as quickly, and it's unsafe most of the time for the person being sent back. So, I think, you're point is wrong and the fortress guardians should be toned up. My opinion.

I'm going to focus on the main point I'd like to make.

Cry and Fort recall aren't the end-all-be-all, I agree. Neither is bash. Both have times where they are very useful, and other times where they are not useful at all and are actually dangerous if you use them without thinking.

However, certain members of the Fort *do* have these powers, whereas other cabals do not. How and when you use them is up to you, but no question they are handy in certain circumstances. I've played Maran before...I can testify first hand to their advantages and drawbacks.

Kung

nt

Is that many times I come upon foes hitting the *inner* who 'have a few scratches', without shields/sanc/a/b/s. It just doesn't seem to add up.

I have to agree. It's been said that cabal guardians are not equal in strength because of the nature of the cabal. Prime example is the Village, which has strong guards because of the the limited amount of help that PCs can give, ie: no sanc, no shields, very limited healing, etc.

Not only are the two of the primary classes of the Fort big on healing and protection, but those that are Acolytes can recall right to the Outer Guard to help out in defending. I think that this more than balances out the Tara'bal being "weaker."

Never having really fought the Fortress Inner, I will reserve comment.

Any cabal with a lot of members is hard to retrieve from, you can't base the raiding/retrieving difficulty purely on the fact that it'd be rough with a lot of people. Ever try to take the head with 4 competant ragers defending? Its a lot more brutal IMHO then facing off against 4 paladins and the Maran inner unless you're a duergar. Same can be said for any cabal when they are in power.

Truth be told, if you wanted to reverse the statement when fortress isn't in power they need strong guardians more than any other cabal perhaps, mainly because theoretically they should try to defend it with more courage than any other cabal.

I have no real opinion on whether or not they should be beefed up, just stating that numbers logic is innately flawed in the changing character lineup that composes CF.

I'm not basing my opinion on numbers. I'm basing it on the classes that play the cabals. Case in point: Characters in the Fortress can give sanctuary, heal, cure X, and invoker shields. Characters in Battle can give field dressing and poultice. That's a big disparity, and accurately reflected in the relative toughness of the cabal guardians.

1. Malediction is big, at least for deterring solo raiders. After fighting the Empire inners I'd have some subset of healing curse, curse, poison, nerve, caltraps, axe kick, kotegaeshi, kansetsuwaza, vital and possibly sigil of pain. That's rough.

2. The Watcher and Tara'bal's power levels were probably set when paladins were able to grant them sanctuary.

3. Grottimgesh, a warrior vuln to the Watcher's attack type, seemed to have an easier time solo-raiding than I did as a shield paladin with combat-focused virtues. (Assuming no defenders).

and make him a paladin with dedicant skills. That should do it.

Making the Fortress Inner a two-handed spec would change how easy he is to raid instantly.

All? Two? None? That's the question....

Having the Watcher have a two-handed weapon would be neat and all... But most raiders would end up taking three demolishes/higher every two rounds after it used a templars defense move on each one, and there would be endless complaining.

Yes, the Archmage can dole out some nice damage with nova + soften. The D can hold like no other Inner, the Imperials can maladict like no other, ect, ect..

I suggest just making the Watcher a shield dedicant paladin and give him Fortitude and Hope. Thus, he simply becomes difficult to kill without becoming exceedingly deadly.. Putting him on par with the Archmage, at the very least.

It's not really the malediction, that's just annoying more than deadly. When you first walk into the empire inners, I've had a mid forties to hero invoker nearly get one rounded with 6 shields plus protection if I went in alone. Besides the theme of the inners seems to be bits of all the classes in the cabal. why not have the watcher have a little bit of several classes?

You have weaken, poison, nerve, kot, kans, caltraps, blindness, sigil of pain, healing curse, curse, vital area, all possible from the inners. (Maybe other things that escape me at the moment too)
Thats a disgusting array of maledictions to have to fight through.

>I suggest just making the Watcher a shield dedicant paladin
>and give him Fortitude and Hope. Thus, he simply becomes
>difficult to kill without becoming exceedingly deadly..
>Putting him on par with the Archmage, at the very least.

That sounds all fine and good but I think an inner guardian that is more defensive in nature would be much crazier than one that is not defensive but deals a lot of damage. You ever defend with an armadillo at your hip? It is insane how much damage you can deal out while that dillo sucks up all the hate. Not to mention a defensive inner in addition to a healer who might be there would be a whore of unmatched proportions.