In your opinion, what "game element" (*) most closely approaches the mythical state of being "overpowered"?

Clearly it doesn't quite reach that state or it would have been toned down already. I'm interested in what you think might be "on the cusp" so to speak. Should make for interesting discussion.

"game element" = skill, spell, song, commune, power, item, race, class, weapon spec, form, cabal, or any combination thereof.

Feel free to define "overpowered" however you wish, but do include your definition. Mine is: "something that's fairly likely to kill me even when I'm trying very hard not to die."

I'll throw out my candidates once a few folks respond. Or not, if there's no interest.

Okay. Figured I'd throw in my few. Most of these I don't really think need changing. Or at least, I can't think of how I would change them without making them completely unrecognizable. Like I said, these are things that tend to worry me as a player.

1. Assassinate. Yes, there is risk involved for the assassin. Yes, there are things I can do to reduce the likelihood of him succeeding. No, I don't think anybody can do these things 24/7 without being willing to severely restrict themselves and/or spend large amounts of cash.

2. The Hunt. This should rank lower on my list, but it still deserves a place. Not because the Hunt can kick my ass, which it probably can, but because it makes escape that much harder. Druid + full moon means there are multiple areas I have to treat as totally off limits.

3a. Druid + plant growth + briars + CoW + sunray + chameleon. Spam = death.

3b. Invoker + improved invis + quicksand + {insert damage spell}. Spam = death. And I can't even "whe treant".

4. Gate. Don't laugh. Geared healer w/ cabal powers vs. wounded me w/ limited number of teleport potions. Could be nasty. Never died this way, but once came close.

5. Nightguants + clever conjurers. Easy to combat for hiding classes, but severely restricts gameplay. Not easy for non-hiders.

Honorable mention:

6. Blackjack + steal. Esp. when part of a gang. This isn't overpowered per se, but it's one of the things I usually fear as a player. Not that I'll necessarily die, but being robbed blind is no fun either.

Conspicuously absent:

7. Paladins + wrath. They can't lag me (well). They (usually) can't see me. They can't gate to me from afar or send servitors at me. Scary to fight, but easy to avoid. So not scary.

>4. Gate. Don't laugh. Geared healer w/ cabal powers vs.
>wounded me w/ limited number of teleport potions. Could be
>nasty. Never died this way, but once came close.

I usually just compare it mentally to old Master tesseract, and while that's not making it easy to kill Battleragers, it's also not making it easy for bloodthirsty mages to kill random warriors and thieves.

So, sure gate isn't much fun, but you're far safer from that sort of thing now than once upon a time.

I'll post some specific answers later on, but I wanted to give my definition of "overpowered" up front. An overpowered ability does one or more of the following:

1) Rewards poor strategy. This ability is so good that you can use it poorly and still do well. Too much raw power.

1B) Excessively rewards blind luck. Low-probability, high-outcome events are cool if done carefully, but combat should not be a coin flip. This can be true even if the average outcome is far from optimal.

2) Overwhelms existing counters, if any. There is little to nothing an opponent can do to neutralize it, even if they know in advance that it is coming. Countertactics have to be evaluated on availability, potency, and the existence of counter-counter-tactics.

3) Overflows its niche. This is an ability you can try in every situation and it is a good choice. Too broad.

3B) Marginalizes alternative abilities. This is often a side effect of #3. Sometimes this is planned (higher level abilities superceding lower level ones, or narrowly available ones superceding widely available abilities), but often it is not.

3C) Makes certain combinations unplayable. This ability is common and strong enough that it discourages people from playing a certain kind of character that is otherwise viable.

4) Requires active maintainance. If we have to watch players to make sure it is used "the right way", that suggests a problem.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>1) Rewards poor strategy. This ability is so good that you can use it poorly and still do well. Too much raw power.

Wrath.

>2) Overwhelms existing counters, if any. There is little to nothing an opponent can do to neutralize it, even if they know in advance that it is coming. Countertactics have to be evaluated on availability, potency, and the existence of counter-counter-tactics.

One shield, one freakin shield, is the only item beside preps that I know of to protect against wrath. Aside from worldbind on a pally without a certain virtue.

3) Overflows its niche. This is an ability you can try in every situation and it is a good choice. Too broad.

In almost any fight vs an evil, wrath is a good option.

That said, I've only ever died once to a paladin solo, and that was 1.5 years ago. IMHO, the lag on it should be increased by another round, and perhaps the damage should get toned down because of its utility in cursing the victim with tracker of the wicked or whatever that other skill is called.

Romanul.

s

Thats an expensive proposition when your taking an === OBLIT === for every wrath.

Either you shouldn't be taking that for every wrath, or every should really mean "the one that will happen before I kill him"...

nt

--SIG
Two wrongs dont make a right, but three rights make a left

I get the idea that counters don't have to be items.

> > 2) Overwhelms existing counters, if any. There is little to nothing an opponent can do to neutralize it, even if they know in advance that it is coming. Countertactics have to be evaluated on availability, potency, and the existence of counter-counter-tactics.

>I get the idea that counters don't have to be items.
>
>>> 2) Overwhelms existing counters, if any. There is little to nothing an opponent can do to neutralize it, even if they know in advance that it is coming. Countertactics have to be evaluated on availability, potency, and the existence of counter-counter-tactics.


I believe 'counter' was meant in strategy and class abilities as well as item use. For example, fly can counter trip, but ground control can counter flight. So, strategically many things can be nullified, ignored, or even used against you. If flight always made sure you'd never be affected by trip, earthquake, quicksand, and so on, it could be considered overpowered. It isn't a guarantee, so it's not.

Personally I've never understood why druids don't have an exp penalty. Maybe that's because I've never played one, but to me, the class should have one.

I find them deadlier in the wilds than a ranger, and a ranger has a penalty. I find them MUCH deadlier outside of the wilds than a ranger.

I might be speaking from non-druid ignorance here when I say that saying a druid is vulnerable for two minutes when he does plant growth doesn't mean a lot if he grows all his plants at a time when sylvans outnumber everyone else, and are protecting him.

What about the times of day/month/year that a druid's power fluctuates?

A ranger's abilities, or lack thereof, in certain places are fairly constant. Druids are more... cyclic.

It hardly seems worth it to toss a 100xp penalty on them just for game balance, when they seem fairly balanced in that regard as it is. You're also not taking into account that they are an empowerment class, rangers aren't. I think it's like trying to compare apples and oranges... or at the very least, cherries and loganberries.

*shrug*

I don't think empowered characters should be stronger than unempowered characters. Getting empowered isn't that hard to the subset of people who are going to make a class look overpowered anyway.

As far as exp penalty goes, I was thinking more alone the lines of 300xp.

Also, while druids are cyclic, they do, as far as I can tell, have something extremely powerful no matter what the cycle.

To me, the thing that makes druids seem a little power-heavy is that they can lag, do big damage, and have good damage resistance all at the same time. Paladins, for example, can't do the lagging all that well. Also, the combination of druid abilities just meshes a little too well for my liking. For example, when caught in briars (providing the lag) you could use a wand to recall, perhaps. Except that sunray will blind you while doing huge damage too.

It isn't much comfort to know that the druid is going to be fireseeding me during a new moon instead of sunraying me. Actually it is, but even fireseeds is quite horrific if you are stuck in some briars.

I actually have the phase of the moon in my prompt even though I don't play druids, just so that I know when they are ubernasty instead of just extranasty. Admittedly I also have indoors/outdoors and wilderness/civilised in my prompt too to cope with other classes, but still.

I'd also add that my view isn't colored by dying to druids. I think the only druid to ever have killed me was Amora (who did it twice) before the bug in her herbs got fixed and also Airael (which was intentional on my part). I have this view both because of what some druid players have said themselves, and because of what I've seen them do to other people. I have killed a few druids, but only because I've timed the attack for when they are badly hurt and/or distracted in the first place, and that will kill any class.

It sucks to fight druids, especially as a non-warrior type. If they're flying, good luck trying to lag them. Of course I've heard... catch them while they're going for herbs! But uh... let's be realistic...
They have communes that do insane damage, get damage reduc, and they get healing communes. Then they shake you once they're hurt, teleport with a potion, and go treeform somewhere so you can find em. I really think druids are a tad bit overpowered than any other class. All other classes I see setbacks, but with druids I just dont see it. If it's the lack lagging that will balance out all other aspects of the class, then maybe bash should lag for 5 rounds, so that I can deal out the same amount of damage as those 15 someodd fireseeds coming my way.

Oh yea... on a sidenote... I think you should be able to scan/look and see briars. I definately feel I'd notice a big ass growth of plants popping up down the road, or a snowstorm, now that I think about it.

--SIG
Two wrongs dont make a right, but three rights make a left