.

{SCION} the Archmage of Eternal Night: Say it.

I've played a few paladins and always thought they were retardedly overpowered with virtues.

Its not defiance thats ####. What balances out paladins is they're not supposed to be gear whores. Or at least, sure seems like they shouldn't be.

Course, power gamers don't give a crap about that.

Paladins + virtues are ####. I should know, I've played them, heh.

Faith for example isn't bs, unless you are a shaman trying to kill a paladin. Noone should be complaining virtues like spiritual hammer or fast are grossly overpowered. I think counterstrike & champion's stand could be looked at to see if they are out of line power-wise, esp. compared to the other virtues, and it is more the combination of certain virtues.

I'd be hard pressed to name 3 deadly paladins in the past 5 years, and in that same period there has probably been more deathful transmuters or evil conjurers than there has been deathful paladins.

Faith has a power thats good against any spellcaster. Temperance is ridiculous. Retribution, likewise. Depends on what you call deadly. I hit off 70 or so PKs with a sphere honor paladin who didn't give a crap about gear. I guarantee you if I was happy ganging people down with warriors I could've gotten many more than that. I stood for like 50 rounds in combat with 4 blades, one of which was the warmaster, thanks to temperance. They also couldn't lag me at all. Healers and shamans I could dispel and worldbind. Against other mages I still had the saves bonus.

I don't know. A serious PK'er with a paladin will do well. I'm honestly waiting for a paladin with 150 pks. If you're a gear whore and you gang there's no reason why thats an unviable number.

I get a laugh out of people calling paladins ridiculous. Lariya was a monster of a paladin, and she had 90 pk wins. That many pk wins on a warrior with that many hours would be "not terrible". Blitzenturt was a warrior, and he had 395 pk wins. Paladins can be strong, sure, but even when they win they can rarely close the kill. Plus they are burdened by additional roleplay restrictions that other characters don't have to worry about. Lariya had three virtues to get where she was; hardly anyone gets that many. Now you're talking about the potential for a paladin to land 150 pks if they're "a gear whore and you gang". Other classes hit 150 pk wins on a regular basis, without anything special.

Aarn

Tell me why in gods name a paladin, a class with a lot of really good supplications and significant communing power also needs to be able to hit like a nuclear bomb. Please. Every other class in the game is balanced in this aspect.

Warriors with the heavy weapon legacy hitting for obliterates on every hit? Invokers with so much damage redux that they take injures from deathblows? Some of the warrior flurries following cry of thunder? Basically any log with Dakizar? A necromancer one rounding an unhurt person with their army? #### happens! Suck it up and learn how to beat it, because believe it or not, some people shrug a defiance off and beat the #### out of the paladin.

A-P and sometimes orc throw physical dam better than anyone in my opinion. I've seen plenty of ranger fights (even at hero) that result in deaths without the victim ever getting a command. A paladin comes ahead of all the classes that don't have third attack in throwing physical damage, but behind any of the other classes with third in my opinion. That'd not to say you can't find examples of paladins beating warriors in pure melee combat, but it isn't generally the rule.

I was thinking about it on the drive home tonight, and you know? I agree that in a lot of situations a paladin seems heart-sickeningly powerful, even the best possible character for a lot of things. But that being said, I tried and tried to think of the last time I've gotten killed by a paladin, even a massive gang including a paladin, and I'm coming up blank. I'm sure it happened somewhere along the line, but I'm also sure that pretty much everything else is kicking my ass a whole lot more.

Nobody says that paladins are the best killers.
But the game is not only about number of kills.

If a paladin comes to my cabal, slays all guardians, beats me, takes my item,
even if he didn't land a killing blow I would not be the happiest person anyway.
I didn't die, right, but still I may be demoted, for example, for laziness
and a lack of ability to defend by clueless elders.

P.S. Perhaps you will laugh, but my last PK death with Nabburak was to a paladin using lagging strikes ( and gang ).

I would say that Dwoggurd was stronger character than any paladin I've ever played. I can honestly say this, because I fought Dwoggurd.

On to your argument. As for being able to kill inners, drive off defenders, etc etc etc. Was Aiekooso overpowered? That guy almost could not be stopped, no matter how many were defending. There was a scion conjurer not long ago, a female that I can't remember the name of, that would kill every maran on IN THE PROCESS of raiding. Not take them out one at a time, but while she also killed the inner. Blitzenturt could raid solo, and kill a whole slew of people in the process. There was an ex-tribunal cloud warrior that went to war with the village, and could kill several villagers while killing the destructor. I'm sorry man, but basically making it sound like only paladins can do that, is just wrong.

I would say that Dwoggurd was stronger character than any paladin I've ever played.

Obviously. Because he's Dwoggurd. Now put Dwoggurd behind the wheels of a 2h spec Paladin. I guarantee you he's going to lay waste to everything in sight if he gangs, plays cautiously and outfits himself with the best gear in the game.

The difference though, between a Dwoggurd Pally and a Dwoggurd is that Dwoggurd Pally has dam redux, tanks like a mongoose, hits like a truck, is great for fighting NPCs and doesn't really have any weaknesses.

Sure, he doesn't have bash, but warriors in his cabal might and that's good enough.

I still don't see how this makes them overpowered. I would rather have a paladin beat me up and make me flee then be one of the 400 people that died to Amora. Or Blitz. Or any number of other characters that aren't paladins. And quite frankly, most paladins CAN'T do what you're describing, even with two virtues.

Hey, stinky, just admit that paladins are overpowered
Don't lure me into playing a paladin or you will never restore
evil/good balance in this game which is seriously broken for months.
*threat*

Seriosly, many people cry that paladins, invokers and rager berserkers ( at certain levels ) are overpowered.
Only a few people cry about shifters, mace/polearm specs, orcs or evil conjurers being overpowered.

There are two posibilities why that can happen.
1) Those people are stupid vocal losers who know nothing about actual game balance.
2) Those people actually have a point.
Think for a moment, can 100 flies be wrong?

P.S. Blitz was a puss

I guess we'll see you in the paladins guildhall!

Aarn

Before he rolls one up, we should set the standards. Since the average Dwoggurd char "only" racks up around 100 PKs and dies under 10 times, maybe his paladin has to get to 200-300 and die under 5?

If he or Eskelian did that, I'd be buying what they're selling, myself.


(Edited to put quotes around "only" - meant to denote sarcasm, not some kind of flame.)

When I first started getting the hang of things, Jasmin got ahold of defiance, and she couldn't keep a hold of the damn thing. She got it two or three times and just got creamed every time. My paladins since haven't had defiance, and are ten times more deadly, because I know what the hell I'm doing. Defiance is powerful, just like several other items in the game, but it's not going to make a clueless person deathful. Here's the problem though, these people are never going to believe it's not eq, no matter what argument you make. You could post lists of gear to compare good and evil. You could give several examples of players that do fine without "uber gear". If they want to believe it is bullcrap, and unfair, they will believe it no matter what argument you make.

I found when I went out of my way to get good gear I was more or less unstoppable. Warriors couldn't do #### to me because I outtanked them with temperance. Priests couldn't cast on me. Directed spell casters like necros and transmuters couldn't do much to me thanks to saves, maran powers and champs stand. Invokers I didn't tend to beat, but likewise they didn't tend to beat me either.

I did fine without uber gear, but you're sorta missing the point. You give someone lagging attacks plus sanc plus protection plus mongoose dodge plus immune vs lag plus perma-divine saves against spells plus auto-attack necros plus an 85 damroll on an avg 31 nodisarm weapon and they should kick some serious ass. If they don't, well, that person wasn't going to kick ass with any other class either.

So what you're really saying is: A paladin with mongoose dodge (where the hell does a paladin get mongoose dodge?), one of the best weapons in the game, an 85 damage roll (I don't recall ever seeing a paladin with a damage roll that high), perma-divine saves (from what, all that plus-damage gear they're wearing?), lag immunity (where do you get immunity from pincher, cranial, misdirect, trip and lash... and even bash if someone cleaves your shield, provided you're not a two-hander?), and full Maran cabal powers... will kick ass.

Okay, I'll agree with that. They still wont close many kills though.

Aarn

Evils will generally have a much higher kill ratio. Or actually any non-paladin can have a much higher kill number, because, they have many many more targets to draw from. A good paladin is going to have a much smaller target area to draw from. So any paladin kill numbers you might have to take times three, to accomodate for neutral and evil kills they wouldn't have.

and maybe faith virtues also. I do tend to agree with Temperance. I've had it, and it's just badass.

I had an easy time hitting 70 pks as a sphere honor paladin. 150 wins isn't a common occurrence except for maybe necros. Some warriors have done it, its not mediocre or common place.

The thing is, most people don't play paladins to land a lot of PKs.

If someone did play a paladin to land a lot of pks, they could do it easily.

I might give it a shot one of these days, just permalag people with templars defenses + a warrior cabalmate or something. It wouldn't be hard because paladins are ridiculously overpowered.

I've played them and I think that, so you can't exactly give me the 'try one out and see how you get raped' routine, because I have.

The only thing that sucks about being a paladin is being a goodie, but these days, being a goodie is like being a neutral so its not that big of a deal.

I had an easy time hitting 70 pks as a sphere honor paladin. 150 wins isn't a common occurrence except for maybe necros. Some warriors have done it, its not mediocre or common place.

I'm not aware of any paladins with 100 victories. I can rattle off several dozen examples from other classes, however.

If someone did play a paladin to land a lot of pks, they could do it easily.

And yet, noone ever has. Call it coincidence if you want.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It is hard enough to get in the first place.

Unbalanced I say.

Maybe if the # of hero good guys is a certain % of the hero range, maybe then have it be unique.

Right now I see no reason to try and fight them.

{SCION} the Archmage of Eternal Night: Say it.

>Right now I see no reason to try and fight them.

I mean, to be fair, you sure talk a lot of #### about your enemies when they log off or don't show up for fights they'll almost certainly lose. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't be the thing you hate.

Anyway, there's a lot I'd limit if I kicked that one down. The part of the Defiance prog that people bitch the most about is cut/pasted directly, with different echoes, from another non-unique item that any alignment/class can use, and one that I think is generally better (if not in every respect).

For any other fight I usually can plan for survival with the preps I know about, fighting a bash guy? Reduce or enlarge as needed. Cheapshot? Fly. A class I'm going to take a lot of hits and/or damage I have haste and stoneskin and Protection from align. Neuro? now I can cover that as well.

However now you have a class (already powered nicely, and sometimes over powered) with a lot of command denial. I already take massacres - mangles through stoneskin and protection from align from a low lag / low level commune. I've already tangled with defiance and barely came out alive fully prepared. Now why would I bother to defend or retrieve against two of them + virtues?

I mean let us face it, Maran + Battle have very few enemies and it has been that way for awhile now. I really think this is something that should be looked at.

"I mean, to be fair, you sure talk a lot of #### about your enemies when they log off or don't show up for fights they'll almost cetainly lose."

Now to be fair, most of the time I am talking about groups of Maran

{SCION} the Archmage of Eternal Night: Say it.

>However now you have a class (already powered nicely, and
>sometimes over powered) with a lot of command denial.

I don't know how you could call that a lot of command denial. For example, linkdead healer with the eagle staff is actually significantly more command denial.

>I
>already take massacres - mangles through stoneskin and
>protection from align from a low lag / low level commune.
>I've already tangled with defiance and barely came out alive
>fully prepared. Now why would I bother to defend or retrieve
>against two of them + virtues?

I swear I've seen logs of Granaak whipping Firunsheim and Wungar when they had it. Was I hallucinating?

>I mean let us face it, Maran + Battle have very few enemies
>and it has been that way for awhile now.

Empire's still bigger than both of those cabals put together. There was about a 1-2 week period there where Scion, a cabal that's supposed to be small and elite, was bigger than Fort.

>I don't know how you could call that a lot of command denial. For >example, linkdead healer with the eagle staff is actually >significantly more command denial.

Could be perception because that link dead healer is not going to kill you in two - four rounds.

>I swear I've seen logs of Granaak whipping Firunsheim and Wungar
>when they had it. Was I hallucinating?

I checked my logs real quick, I do not think I ever fought Firunsheim. As for Wungar, that I am not sure about, I do not recall ever really whipping Wungar. (Retributiona and Faith) even with basic preps he would still severly outdamage me, wrath spam for OBLIT's and more.

>Empire's still bigger than both of those cabals put together. There >was about a 1-2 week period there where Scion, a cabal that's >supposed to be small and elite, was bigger than Fort.

1 - 2 weeks? Wow. =) Throughout Granaak's life and then Israhiaz, Maran's were stacked. Sure I can believe empire might be bigger, but if you look at which cabal's have the items, it's not going to be Empire or Scion.

I'll save my thoughts on battle/fortress for when my battle guy autodeletes (the first guy I'll have that dies off before hero, so sad)

Anyway, just wanted to bring up the issue with defiance(s).

ps Just to make it clear I am not one of those people who is going to "quit cf because of the imm's" I like the IMM's and I like the game. I do not like most of the playerbase (hence I enjoy pk'ing)

{SCION} the Archmage of Eternal Night: Say it.

>Could be perception because that link dead healer is not going
>to kill you in two - four rounds.

No, that's true. Staff warrior or transmuter definitely can, though. I know I've died that way a lot more than I've died to Defiance, and I play evil a lot more than I play good.

(Yes, I frequently curse at myself over gear/skills/spells I've put in the game when I run up against enemies using them. At least you missed the era of knight paladins with hasting tattooes and force duel dual wielding Defiance/HumanSunder.)

Are in my mind the closest good equivalent to a lich. It is pretty rare (in the history of CF, I've no idea of the moment) that you have to face two at once.

And of course the other question is would you want to go up against those same two paladins if one had defiance and the other was wielding spirit breaker or humansunder? I don't see how getting rid of one defiance makes that big a difference in the grander scheme of things.

>And of course the other question is would you want to go up
>against those same two paladins if one had defiance and the
>other was wielding spirit breaker or humansunder? I don't see
>how getting rid of one defiance makes that big a difference in
>the grander scheme of things.

Yeah, I've always come to a similar conclusion when I've thought about making Defiance or Heartseeker unique. I'd like to just for the style of it, but the gear in the game just still skews so much more towards evil in my opinion. Good has a few great things that it's hard for neutral or evil to match, but overall their situation is still significantly worse. For example, there's really little good-aligned equivalent of something as non-flashy but unquestionably all-around solid as the set of darkened armor.

The other thing you have to factor in, and maybe there's a good solution to this that I haven't yet seen, is good characters that aren't really interested in PK but still soak up a metric ton of top gear. I'm not going to mention any names because I can't think of a good example off the top of my head that aren't still current characters, but you know the kind of thing I mean. This is a conundrum for me because, really you should be able to play a good-aligned character who's froofy or just plain not all about PK. (Or is useless in PK.) That's not a role type we should discourage. We shouldn't be trying to force that kind of character to only wear unlimited gear, because there's more to the game than PK. At the same time, it really sucks if you're Iramath and could desperately use a pair of hummingbird pendants to fight Granaak, and Jezerael is hogging them. If you're evil and another evil (or anyone) is sitting on gear you want, you have options. If you're good, you really don't have many good options that are in keeping with the way you should RP.

>I'd like
>to just for the style of it, but the gear in the game just
>still skews so much more towards evil in my opinion. Good has
>a few great things that it's hard for neutral or evil to
>match, but overall their situation is still significantly
>worse.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

coughcoughcoughwheeze

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Neppy, you still got it baby!

If you want to prove it to yourself, as an exercise, take a good character (let's say dwarf or storm axe or mace) and an equivalent evil character (duergar or fire axe or mace). Build an ideal set of gear for each, but to control for the great unique or unique-ish items both sides have, don't use anything that there aren't at least, say, three of.

(Warrior's easy; if you get into mage gear, it gets a lot worse for good. If you dip into uniqueish mage gear, it's downright ugly. Add in Hell and it's like not even playing the same game.)

Dual heartseekers, hummingbird pendents, couple spare necklaces of prayer beads, headdress of *CENSORED AREA EXPLORE ITEM*, toss in some *CENSORED AREA EXPLORE ITEM,* ooh and while I'm at it head to Kua-Toa (aka Goodie Equipment Hydroponic Lab), or the goodie village in *CENSORED AREA EXPLORE NAME* (aka Goodie Munitions Cache Station V) and request to my heart's content. Let's see, to round that off, I'd go to the Basilica (aka Goodie Equipment Hydroponics Backup Station B) and request pretty nice spares of everything. But I'm a dwarf, so I think rather than a hummingbird pendant or prayer bead, I'll free up a spot for *CENSORED AREA EXPLORE ITEM* to sanc myself in combat. Crap, I'm a paladin and need two-handed weapons. Guess I'll go to a certain area wintery area (aka Goodie Frozen Gear Storage Facility MK4) and grab a second set of spares until my inventory is maxxed.

I'd say you have a point, if Hell's rather sensitive author hadn't closed it down save for the odd visit every 365 days or so. Sure the axe of Mel'Kartha kicks ass, but you need a time machine to get it.

Bottom line is I'm not conviced there really is this huge disparity between good/evil gear. Add in the fact that goodies have pretty much free access to multiple large eq caches, and I'm not buyin what you're sellin!

I'm not saying that it's hell on earth as a baddie gear-wise, but I dispute evils have the cakewalk you make it out as. Next time your drow gets hit with twin heartseekers and twin prayer beads with a HoG as backup, lemme know if you're thinking about how Hell balances things out as you're typing 'outfit equip' in guild.

If you're going to do this, then do it right. Add up the accumulated hit/dam/saves/hp/mana/str.. whatever for your set.

And then compare it to an evil set.

What you posted is completely worthless except to demonstrate that you haven't thought this comparison through. At least, not beyond "Goodies have it easy because Heartseekers are in the game and they can request crap gear."

For extra fun, exclude armor that has a red aura (for goodies without access to Paladins).

Considering it's all completely hypothetical, especially with Hell as 'invite only.'

Compare the ease obtaining of your ideal goodie set with ease of obtaining the equivalent baddie set. Consider playing an uncaballed goodie warrior vs. uncaballed baddie warrior with that set and what your lifespan will be.

>At least, not beyond "Goodies have it easy because Heartseekers are in the game and they can request crap gear."

I'll leave spending hours creating the best gear compiled from years of data mining and picking the brains of the 'elites' of the game to those with more interest in the topic than me, as I don't know half the crap in the game nowadays anyway. If you say the bestest evil suit, not including gear from that certain sensitive area written by that certain sensitive author, completely owns the best goodie suit, I say you're wrong.

***EDITED TO INCLUDE:

PS: I think I've had it out with you & others on this same argument before. Let's agree to disagree so as not to waste more time.

If you say the bestest evil suit, not including gear from that certain sensitive area written by that certain sensitive author, completely owns the best goodie suit, I say you're wrong.

The bestest good suit is going to be on a paladin. The bestest evil suit is going to be on a lich. Hell, the fact that there are lichs (or even a-ps who can beef up to kill people quick fast and in a hurry like nothing else) outweighs a few items of gear, but anyways. The gear itself is nice, but it won't decide a fight. I've fought paladins with defiance before and beat them senseless. And then watched them go to get the sword and die again for that awesome sword that did so much for them. If there's any complaints about eq, complain about neutrals getting the shaft, at least you can get some agreement on that.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

Although I do quite like the mace of balance.

I don't know how often paladins like Leika or Llyria die,
but I don't think they die more often than evil anti-paladins or liches.

Also I don't buy that evil set is much better than goodly.
At least for a warrior the best set mostly consists of items that both aligments can use.
Darkened eq is good but not that good.

No one just doesn't die. Generally it seems the most skilled players die to themselves, usually by means of overconfidence.

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." - Jimi Hendrix

I think evils have an easier time getting a quick mediocre set because they can kill anything they want, good aligns have an easier time getting a decent set than evils because of request and areas like the basilica, northern wastes, and kuo-toa lair (but it takes longer due to request lag), and a decked evil is going to have a better set than a decked good. But like I said, I'm not going to go through the exercise of compiling all the stats so everything is just a combination of gut feel and my own ability to get gear.

>Considering it's all completely hypothetical, especially with
>Hell as 'invite only.'

With Hell in play, the question isn't even interesting. It's like having the NBA Dream Team play a basketball tournament with a pack of quadrapalegic platapus. Everything I'm saying assumes it's not.

>Compare the ease obtaining of your ideal goodie set with ease
>of obtaining the equivalent baddie set. Consider playing an
>uncaballed goodie warrior vs. uncaballed baddie warrior with
>that set and what your lifespan will be.

It's much lower for the uncaballed evil warrior, but it's mostly because an Empire Fire A-P will be bashing you and taking it.

>If
>you say the bestest evil suit, not including gear from that
>certain sensitive area written by that certain sensitive
>author, completely owns the best goodie suit, I say you're
>wrong.

I'm not making exactly the argument you think I am; I can't say if Balrahd is or not.

Best vs. best, with Hell out of play I think the two alignments are comparable. I personally give a small edge to evil, but it's not "completely owns"; without enumerating it all, both sides have some really good things that there isn't any equal to on the other side. It's a pretty close race.

It's further down the food chain that I think gets harder. You can build great good-align sets for let's say (I haven't crunched the actual numbers on this and don't plan to) three goods at a time, but maybe you can do the same, without gear overlap, for ten evils. Much further down the food chain, if I'm good, I tend to still be wearing academy or truly awful gear to a much higher level than I will playing evil. If I go out and PK five characters with each, I'm going to end up with a much better set of stuff I can use just by taking a couple pieces from each kill with the evil.

~

I am a lazy bastard.

Add in Hell and it's like not even playing the same game.





Damn Nep... i can't believe you used that line. Bringing hell into this thread is just low.. I don't quite complain about eq difference between evils and goods. Its nothin major, specially considering that a lot of evil classes are more pk oriented. But please consider the chances of a paladin getting defiance vs say an ap getting Melkartha...
Could you even tell me how many total times a mortal has actually wielded a weapon like that? EQ that cant be obtained no matter how insanely overpowered shouldnt be brought into the equation.

Just my two cents.
I still love your nerdish ass though


P

Roll up a neutral assassin, rank to hero, and go to town on them. Whenever they get it, pop them and sac their set. Rinse and repeat. Put in a role entry about how your character perceived that a paladin was responsible for his parents death by not saving them and so he blames them for his parents death. Also kill stacked evils every now and again. Bam, instant paladin killer. Hell, if you keep a low-enough profile you won't even have to worry about the role entry since you most likely won't get turned evil anyways.

Rom.

The ranges are still utterly worthless.

So I guess I'll have to have to modify that role slightly, "A village berserker thirsted for blood and mortally injured my mother, then a paladin came along and dropped his sword on accident, my mother trying to secure his healing attempted to pick up the blade and hand it back to him, she blew up."

{SCION} the Archmage of Eternal Night: Say it.

We pay attention to roles, but we're not stupid. If you're a neutral character whose role says 'I am evil', that won't necessarily save you.

Odds are, if you know how to write that role properly, you won't get turned evil. I know I've done it before with a few thieves and know others who have done it with various assassinator assassins. That said, playing a truly evil assassin is much more enjoyable (as was my own), but it makes stalking paladins with the right virtue a real pain, and makes it almost impossible to nail them if they are played by a skilled player.

My beef with paladins is this: Player PK skills should make a class deadly, not player RP skill. The only exception are communers which require at least some minimal roleplay to gain empowerement. Virtues are just really gay, strictly imho. If the player is good, they should be deadly without them.

Rom.

And there's no neutral/evil equivalent outside of Hell to my knowledge. I always thought Defiance was lame to tell the truth; having it nonunique just doubles the lameness.