Dear Valg, Immstaff and players.

For those of you who cannot read backwards, Rutsah = Hastur.

Yes I've been playing cf for many many years, these days nowhere near as much as I once used to. I still take great interest in every game that is still running that I once played. Dropping in now and again always keeps my perspective keen whilst working on pc/console games IRL. I warned a good 7 years ago that cf was walking a bad path and got mocked by the players and told to shutup. 4 years ago whilst continuing to warn about changes for the worse I had a few supporters, and the regular people telling me to piss off and find another game to play. www.qhcf.net Is always a source of "hot" debate, many thinking it is more the hub for the cf community than the official site. It was and to a certain extent still is, however now it to is picking up the Cf gameplan and treating many of its users similarly. Indeed amusing.

Your comments Valg below are what I wanted to comment on, Id be interested to ask for more detail explaining why. That is if This post remains up on the boards long enough to be replied to. I hope to not directly insult you , or the staff who put thier free time into the game.

Quote:

"Ultimately, the rage-deleter, PK-focused, boy-am-I-angry-today crew tends to think the game should be "fun" for them, meaning that they always win, and everyone else always loses. They tend to talk the most #### on the forums, only fight the weakest people they can find, taunt the defeated, and they're the first ones to complain when the unfair advantages (permagroups, overpowered tactics, etc.) they (partially) rely on are removed or toned down. They usually roleplay just enough to not get busted."


Comment:

I have been told by many that im one of these "whiners" , that I talk #### on the forums etc. Yet I think on what you say about fighting the weakest people and taunting the defeated. How we roleplay just enogh to not get busted. Have the immstaff ever stoped to think why this happens ? Have you ever thought on how you could alter the game to allow for these players, but not the extremists that you portray. **NB -shall be continued.

Quote:

"There's another crowd that is also focused on PK, but they're the people who go after challenges, not victories. They'll play odd combinations, go after the other top players, and take the occasional loss with some element of sportsmanship and humility. You rarely see these people tooting their own horn on forums (other people vouch for them as needed, but not more), and they're usually happy when something that is too strong is toned down, or new countertactics become available. They're usually consistent roleplayers, even when their role means making a decision that makes PK harder in some fashion."

Comment:

Few to none of the player base ever identify the fact that I might make a character, that I will spam prac the crap out of a warrior all for one, two or perhaps even three pks that the character might have where I would win as the underdog. I've done it time and time again, and I will most likely continue to do it time and time again. Rarely see these people tooting their own horn on forums, Hmm odd. Consistant roleplayers, making pk harder in some fashion or another Wow. **NB - shall be continued.

Quote:

"Guess which crowd we're going to fight to keep?
As you said, CF is a game, and games are about fun. However, from our angle, the goal is for everyone to have fun, not just the top of the killing heap.
Losing gracefully is part of that, and rage-deleting is the antithesis of losing gracefully. (Bonus non-points for ranting at the person who beat you first, however.)"

Comment:

Double standards perhaps, overlapping views. I am honestly confused here by your comments. You say one line under the comment of "Guess which crowd we're going to fight to keep?" that the goal is for everyone to have fun, not just the top of the killing heap. The fact that probably less than 1% of all characters rolled age die should be a massive warning light flashing on the immortal's warning panel. The fact that people rage delete should be another massive warning light flashing on the immortals warning panel.




10 years in the games industry, tens of thousands of hours breaking down mechanics and structures of games, breaking down games that I play(including CF) in similar fashion and yet I notice cf seems to have this black hole theory. Worse still is this theory is the foundation, the base of what you are trying to build the game on.

Using your comments: How can there be a killing heap, someone at the top if there isnt someone at the bottom. How can you gain achievement if there is nothing to achieve, no one better than you to beat or no reward. The whole concept of games is fun. A major aspect of fun in multiplayer games is compitition against other players. For this to work there has to be a player that is better and a player that is worse.


Time and time again I see major flaws with the game that the staff turn outwardly to the players saying: It's not our fault, you should try it this way, your not the player we want. You ask for players input but reject almost instantly anything which anyone says. If they dare to even put up a valid argument the most common responce is deletion of the post to make the problem go away. *chuckle*


I wish to respond to your comments whilst using the last character that I bothered putting a large ammount of effort into. I shall start with valg's expectations, the staff's expectations of players as I see it:

You must play the game nicely with all other players.
You must roleplay to the standard and the perspective view of the immortal staff.
You must not use any game "features" to gain the upper hand.
You must not complain about obvious inbalances within the game.
You must accept all punishment regardless of the injustice of said punishment.
You must learn from all your mistakes.
You must not make mistakes repeatidly.
You must understand all code of cf without having viewed it.
You must understand all hidden bonuses and functions without knowing they exist.
You must.... Well you get the picture.

If you have not allready guessed I am #### stirring, Yes I am trying to raise the ire of some of the readers. I am an Aussie, it is humourous to do so.

Now that I have done that, what are you thinking on right now. Some will be furious with anger, others will be chuckling to themselves and the majority will probably be saying.. What a ####ing wanker. Just another one of his whining posts.

How many people actually stoped to think WHY I am doing this, What point am I trying to get across?

The point I make is simple, I am different to everyone else. I might be similar to many other aussies, but I will never be similar to Say clan Diku, Or the russians. My way of expressing myself will always be different to them.

Shock horror!!!! - yes this is leading somewhere.

Carrionfields is exactly like real life.

I see a necromancer, I see a character that I could roleplay and I think, I like this type of angle - it could be fun to play that type of angle. But then along comes some random player in the game, who A) Expects me to be a sadist mass pking necromancer(insert Ahelun, Jez, many others), B) Expects me to fall into their percieved RPing of a necromancer. If I do anything which is out of their view on what a necromancer should or shouldnt do, I suddenly suck.

Here is where cf, based on its black hole foundation consumes itself.

Immortals, who preach 12938123 of Do's and Do not's, apply themselves along the same lines. You should create a rp angle and stick to it. You should not mass pk and taunt the fallen, You should not abuse occ information, You should learn everything for yourself. If you do as we say you will have fun, you will be pleased with yourself and your character will be a success.

Now I bring in Kimberly, a human female necromancer I decided that I would give a whirl. She was built to be the peak of pking. She achieved what I wanted and more. However in all aspects regarding what I should and should not do. What would happen and should not happen according to the immortals She was a outright failure.

Target pking:

I wanted to hunt down the perfect set. piece by piece. Take down those top pkers, those who had the elite equipment. I wanted to be feared for being near unkillable, or renound for being lucky in escaping from group after group after group. I achieved this with kimberly to my liking, under the views of other players, nothing. Immortals views... nothing.

Roleplay:
I wanted to build a whole new structure for scion. Try and build something positive in the game, open up a avenue that the immortals could do something with the players not only during the process but from there onwards. I wanted to play a necromancer who was "nice" as long as it benifited her current needs. If she wanted information she was glad to trade it. She was glad to NOT kill someone who would have been extremly easy to kill, as long as she gained something in return - even a simple IOU from one of the targets groupies.


Immortal intereaction:

The first 120 odd hours I stuck to that rp role, that pk ethic like flies on ####. I didnt ####up once. Yet what did I recieve, next to nothing. A few brief things that I did recieve were infact negative. Insisting that I was ####ing up.
Everything that the staff preaches is full of ####. I had a rp angle, yet I got punished for not being "EVIL" enough.
I was wasting time talking to a goodie(who I was trying to siphon some information out of) when I should be hunting them.
After 120 hours of nothing I decide Hell why not flip all my playing times to prime time. Boom! instant responce. All of a sudden The occasional thing starts to happen. **NB:- continuation pt1, treat all players equally, fun to all players etc etc. yet here cf displays instantly that it is 100% bias to all non peaktime players. Immstaff intentional fault, no. Have they addressed the issue, no.

Lets look at some immortal comments:

Fri Jan 21 11:13:15 2005 by 'Eshval' at level 40 (160 hrs):
Came up with a viable plan for enlarging the Chasm. Pretty nice work.

- Pretty nice work, Yeah 120 hours of roleplaying it had built itself into a near finished product. All that was needed was a go ahead. Dont get me wrong eshval I was eager to please, I was itching for any responce.

Thu Jan 27 22:31:02 2005 by 'Eshval' at level 42 (175 hrs):
In being kind, I would say she does not fail to perform in an average manner.

- In being kind, I didnt want to be just another mass pker. I was trying to raise myself above that, noticed by others, no. Muuloc noticed me as a lowbie building a nice set, and noticed that I had it for ages building it piece by piece. Did I gain any respect for this fact, no. Infact if I remember correctly This hindered me more than anything in my seeking to join the chasm.

Fri Jan 28 23:39:30 2005 by 'Eshval' at level 42 (178 hrs):
Spends a good deal of time not ranking into the hero-ranks and spamming where <a certain thief>. Pity, she does nice written work, and I would like to see her grow.

- A good deal of time not ranking, This was mainly because I was the ONLY scion on. My whole range was all enemies. The spamming of where "thief" was to try and help with a huge inbalance in the game(which im surprised has not been abused more) of being trussed. Unable to do ANYTHING whilst trussed and gaged excluding calling cabal powers I think is just bad design.(however this post isnt about truss). I do nice written work. I know so. I had done about 6 different things for different people and was fast losing interest. No responce, no feedback nothing. I was starting to think it wasnt appreciated & that no one was interested. I had to get to 47 as a human to hit the hero ranks, 42 isnt a "hiding" rank for human necros.

Sat Jan 29 22:42:37 2005 by 'Eshval' at level 42 (182 hrs):
She attempted a retrieve...they Fortress has pet villagers to help defend. Nice try.

- pet villagers were common, or rather I should say constant, yet nothing was done about it. healing sancing ragers yet nothing was done about it **NB(1): note this aspect for later comment.


Sat Feb 5 16:10:58 2005 by 'Eshval' at level 47 (212 hrs):
Kimberly: Worry not about the sceptre for now. There are a few lightwalkers and villagers on whom would take it swiftly were we to regain it. - Meaning I don't wish to defend.

- Meaning I dont want to fight ragers who are sanced and being healed by fortresses 1 vs 6. Why, cause nothing was done in the first place. I LEARNED from my mistake in trying 10 to 20 times to retrieve and finding it near impossible solo(without hasted zombie army - another game inbalance, out of pk people summoning the zombies as soon as I managed to animate them, which in itself was incredibly rare).

Thu Feb 10 22:07:54 2005 by 'Qaledus' at level 47 (232 hrs):
Stop talking about defending and defend. And be evil!

- Many times when I was actually able to viably defend I defended. I will say however there is very very little that a necromancer can do in defense. A few simple tricks and tactics I did emplore, but it never really made much of a difference. (Lack of resist wands, problem 1. Unable to hold onto army, problem 2. Unable to do much to a fighting person and their five backups, problem 3)


Thu Feb 10 23:35:46 2005 by 'Valguarnera' at level 47 (232 hrs):
Example from earlier today: Unthurok (uncaballed warrior) raids Scion solo. Kimberly stands around asking questions until Unthurok finishes killing the Archmage, resting twice for hp in between. Sad.

- Valg, what is sad is that you didnt say or do anything during that time, You made assumptions about everything that you would have done and nothing about what I was currently doing. Was I nakid, did I have resist wands, did I have mana, did I have moves. I actually remember fighting this warrior. At the time I was on the other side of the map, in a no recall zone and was in the process of gathing simple preps, fly, reduce, aura, shield, stone. Hell Sad is that you would say I sucked more if I ran in unpreped and he 1 rounded me. If I recall correctly I later killed Unthurok after convincing a fence sitter to help me. A real scion thing to do , so you constantly say. Rewarded for doing so? No.


Fri Feb 11 21:06:52 2005 by 'Innis' at level 47 (232 hrs):
Would be more efficient if she didn't stand at the pit spamming to get items - got her killed...seldom uses the 'where' command.

- I had allready died prior to the pit spamming (bad recall into maran fiery eyes- died in recall lag), I had nothing to lose and I knew what was going to be arriving in the pit any second.


Fri Feb 11 21:10:22 2005 by 'Innis' at level 47 (232 hrs):
Cudos for attacking Cyver at the pit, when he demanded his items. Kimberly> You say 'Oh come now, surely you dont take me for a fool'

- As you saw, I looted the pieces I wanted, then killed him when he rubed kimberly's rp up the wrong way, Rewarded or commented on in game , no.




A Overview:

I play by all your suggestions rules and regulations, I get punished for doing it your way, and 99% ignored for not playing prime time. I play prime time and still get no feedback, no responce, attitude and more punishment. I played consistantly against immense odds and coped #### for not defending and retrieve against ####ing 10+ enemies who you knew and commented on helping each other. A person bashes their head against the wall and discovers it results in no gain, yet you expect me to continue to beat my head against the wall. You the staff continue to preach what to do and what not to do and then fail 90% of the time to back it up.

Cf needs to have some major changes made to it before it totaly roles over and dies. A lot of work has gone into the game over the years and it would be a shame to see it fall apart because of a few refusing to allow change to take place.

Reward every player, or reward no players.
Treat all players harshly, or let them all get away with blue murder.
Respond to all players Rp, or expect little Rp.
Let players be individuals, or force everyone to adhear to a strict guideline.

Carrionfields needs to open itself up to the players. All hidden secrets in skills/spells need to be revealed. Number crunching isnt the devils work. It is what keeps games playable. Keep the players informed, and they will respond in kind. Dont turn away or insult players with smoke and mirrors. With information and fact disclosed openly players are more likely to take you seriously - being told that you need to learn more is a excuse that has worn thin. Even after years of playing warriors and probably more than any other cf'er has I still have not worked out all the intricate aspects of the skills.

You the immortal staff control this aspect, Make the right decision. Whats the worse that could happen... Not like your current path over the past 5 years has been a booming success.

People still play cards, still play chess, still play courtyard school games. Dont make excuses as to why cf's playerbase is dwindling.

Why havent the aussies revoked your citizenship yet? Ever think about moving to a country without internet access? I would suggest you give it some thought.


Acidic Parv

However, I can still remember Sammie posting on Dio's about how everyone was pathetic for not fighting alone, on the same day that Sammie didn't engage Baendra alone, and waited for Arrazn to come and help. Then when Arrozn chased me into Hamsah and died, Sammie just called me "lame" for summoning her in Hamsah, yet chose not to attack.

In summary, you chose, twice, not to attack me alone, then posted a complaint about people not fighting alone.

Your description of Kimberly's life seems to be following the same lines, as in you are intentionally ignoring certain things that you did or didn't do.

I completely sympathise with having no one to rank with, and the village / fortress affair, etc. However, that explains some of the behavior of Kimberly, not all.

I doubt any of the staff are going to take the time to do a point by point response to this, so I'll take a stab. Honestly I hope they don't, since their time is better spent doing more productive things.

Summary of Point #1: "I don't really play anymore, but I'm such a magnanimous guy that I take time out of my busy schedule to come here and give my helpful advice. Aren't I a great guy?"

Bull. Right or wrong, your rants have been almost categorically rejected by staff and players. It's clear that essays like the one I'm responding to do little to alter staff opinion. They understand your position, they just disagree. So if you're just doing this out of the kindness of your heart, please, don't bother.

Summary of Point #2: "I've been saying the game was going down the toilet for 7 years now. Clearly I'm a visionary thinker and am finally being vindicated."

Sorry, but no. If you continually predict the doom of a finite entity and are eventually right, that doesn't make you a visionary; it makes you Chicken Little. If anybody can make claims of having predicted anything it's Jhyrbian, since his "the sky is falling" post was much more recent.

Summary of Point #3: "Valguarnera wants there to be no 'top of the killing heap', but there has to be one for the game to remain fun. I know this because of my vast experience in the game industry. Aren't I smart?"

He didn't say that. He said he wants people at the bottom of the heap to still be able to have fun. That means they get a fair shake and have a reasonable expectation of eventually getting better. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does, i.e. that everybody is the same and there's no competition.

Summary of Point #4: "Valguarnera expects players to play nice with everybody, not use regular game features to their advantage, not complain about anything, accept all punishment, not make repeated mistakes, and possess magical knowledge of the code."

No on every account.

a. Players are not required to "play nice". That's why it's still possible to full loot someone and sac all their stuff. That's why it's still possible to gang. That's why it's still possible to ask someone to group and then betray them. Players are expected not to cheat.

b. Players are not expected to ignore game features. If you're a necro and sleep someone, and know a room in that area you can summon them to that they can't exit from, by all means go ahead. Players are expected not to abuse bugs. If something seems way out of whack balance wise, don't think to yourself, "I better use this as much as possible before it gets changed." Think, "Maybe this is a bug I should alert the staff to?"

c. Players are not expected to refrain from complaining about anything. I complain about stuff all the time, the most recent being that city fires last too long. Players are expected to make their complaints in a calm and mature manner.

d. Players are not expected to accept all punishment. If you get slain for doing something wrong in game, then by all means feel free to delete. If you prefer not to delete, and feel the acting immortal was out of line, email the implementors. If it's an in-game cabal-related punishment, feel free to take it up with your cabal immortals. Players are expected not to throw childish fits when they're punished for something.

e. Players are not necessarily expected not to make repeated mistakes. I'm not even sure where you're coming from on this one. I've killed the same person twice, and both times it was because they did the same thing wrong. Were they smited for it? Of course not. Why would they be? If a player is punished by an immortal for something, or given a warning, then he is expected to heed that punishment or warning.

f. Players are not expected to have magical knowledge of the code. In fact it's the exact opposite. The stated position of the staff is that they'd prefer players number crunch less than they currently do. Players are expected to do some small amount of experimentation to determine nuanced game-play properties that aren't laid out in the helpfiles.

Summary of Point #5: "My necromancer had a great role that was misunderstood and I suffered for it. I did everything right and got screwed."

Uh. From what you've said in this post, your role seems to have been, "I want to kill lots of people, not die, and assemble the perfect set." That's not a role. That's an acceptable goal from the player's point of view, but it doesn't sound like a particularly well developed philosophy or background for a character. Why is your char so covetous? Why is she so bent on perfection? Why is she willing, or even eager, to kill so many people to achieve her ends? Etc. And how did you really get screwed? No positive immteraction? Wah wah. Did you ever think maybe this was due to the limited scope of your role, or role-play? You may have stuck to your role, such as it was, perfectly, but if it isn't interesting to me, as an immortal, what's my motivation for interacting with you?

Summary of Point #6: "I was discriminated against because of my awesome gear while trying to get into Scion."

Puh-lease. I've been inducted into Scion before, by Eshval, when I had nice gear. It wasn't a problem. If something was hindering you, it wasn't the gear per se. They may have seen you as a lowbie level-sitter, which probably would work against you.

Summary of Point #7: "I shouldn't be punished for not wanting to defend against bad odds."

Sorry, those are the breaks. If you don't want to occasionally have to defend against stupid odds then don't join a cabal.

Summary of Point #8: "I shouldn't be punished for not wanting to defend against even odds when I don't have flight, reduce, aura, shield and stone skin."

Necro against solo uncaballed warrior? Dude. C'mon. The imm comment didn't fault you for not killing him, it faulted you for doing absolutely nothing. This while the warrior had enough time to sleep for hp twice. Seems like you could have at least slapped power word decay on him. Again, if you don't want to be forced into dangerous and inconvenient situations, don't join a cabal.

Based on the contents of this post and what I remember from when Kimberly was alive, she had minimal rp, permagrouped, then failed to fulfill her duties to the cabal. Because of this she got no positive immteraction and may eventually have been kicked out of Scion -- I don't remember. That's hardly seems like sufficient fodder for your martyr complex.

If you have not allready guessed I am #### stirring, Yes I am trying to raise the ire of some of the readers. I am an Aussie, it is humourous to do so.

That's really all I got out of your post. That and a lot of self-advertising about what a neat guy you are.

I don't share your assessment of your own characters, having watched them a fair bit. From what I've read in your previous attempts to create big arguments, the majority of the playerbase doesn't either.

I don't see us going down the all-number-crunching trail either.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com