I was mulling over the orc thread from Gnarugk's graveyard post with a couple esteemed colleagues of mine, and came to the following conclusion about orcs and why they are 'weak.'

Orcs receive zero damage skills, with the exception of savage feeding, which is primarily linked to bash, although a couple other orc skills can trigger it in certain situations. And from lvls 1-31 they receive none at all, with perhaps the exception of the new skill 'pin,' which requires the sacrifice of dual wielding.

As an assault-based class, Orcs lack means to generate damage aside from automatic melee attacks. After thinking about this for a bit, it seems to me that trying to 'fix' orcs is like one of those times when you're trying to find your pen only to discover you're holding it. Orcs can't out-warrior warriors, they can't out-thief thieves, and although the new skills are neat and helpful outside of combat, they don't compensate for the lack of melee-based options.

To rectify this in the short term, I would propose something along the lines of the recent flail/whip attack additions (these are just suggestions)

War Paint (automatic extra strikes):

By applying a mixture of crude dyes, mud, guano, or whatever else may be on hand, orcs can gain new levels of ferocity. After applying the paint, orcs are known to strike at times with near-unstoppable force.

Beastial Strike:

Much akin to the notorious manoever Savage Feeding, less skilled orcs can lash out, biting and slashing, possibly transmitting disease.

Maybe something else that is weapon-based. Bloodsteep sounds cool, but again, it isn't something that is going to win a pk.

I do not think adding more skills to the Orc class will improve it, already they get have a skill every rank, more won't make them any better.

Each title an Orc gets 2 pracs, to practice a skill the Orc needs 3 pracs. I must convert trains to pracs that my con' needs to keep it maxed. This is fustrating.

Also practicing some skills as an Orcs is near impossible. Has anyone perfected grapple yet? Even the newly deleted chief only had it at 88%. I cannot get it over 80 using it while ranking.

To improve Orcs, make spinebreaker easier to perfect also add a -dex, -str modifier to it. I believe they need a slight utility side to the class, all the negative morale stuff is great with war shout and demoralize but it'd like to see more.

I love berserk! Fury of the Clan! I could not live without this.

Cheers.

Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation.

>Each title an Orc gets 2 pracs, to practice a skill the Orc
>needs 3 pracs. I must convert trains to pracs that my con'
>needs to keep it maxed. This is fustrating.
>

I found orc skills worked fine whether perfected or not. Orc bash worked lots even below 75%.

>Also practicing some skills as an Orcs is near impossible. Has
>anyone perfected grapple yet? Even the newly deleted chief
>only had it at 88%. I cannot get it over 80 using it while
>ranking.
>

Is perfection needed?

>To improve Orcs, make spinebreaker easier to perfect also add
>a -dex, -str modifier to it. I believe they need a slight
>utility side to the class, all the negative morale stuff is
>great with war shout and demoralize but it'd like to see
>more.
>

I believe spinebreaker already gives a penalty to dex. Again, why is perfection needed?

Personally I found my orc skills pretty reliable even at low percentages, provided my hitroll was half decent. That doesn't mean I should use spinebreak when I need to flee though.


>I love berserk! Fury of the Clan! I could not live without
>this.
>
>Cheers.

I haven't ever had it used on me. Seems that with morale being nerfed, it would have to be huge to be useful.

I only used two practices on most skills, and I perfected pretty much all the basic orc combat skills. Crushing assault, grapple weapon, spinebreaker, cheap shot, etc. No spamming, just using them.

Each title an Orc gets 2 pracs, to practice a skill the Orc needs 3 pracs. I must convert trains to pracs that my con' needs to keep it maxed. This is fustrating.

Also practicing some skills as an Orcs is near impossible. Has anyone perfected grapple yet? Even the newly deleted chief only had it at 88%. I cannot get it over 80 using it while ranking.

Well, of course. Orcs are among the dumbest PC race choices. Slow skill development is one of the prices you pay for the hearty physical perks orcs get.

This is equivalent to claiming that we should give elves tons of extra hit points, because it's frustrating that you have adjust your to gear for them, even as a fighting class.

Ultimately, and this goes for a lot of the threads on specific races, the staff bias is going to be away from making all of the races more like humans. If we make orcs smarter, giants quicker, and elves beefier, why even have races?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Here's my solution to the Orc problem. The staff routinely says
that they want the classes to be distinct from one another (ie.
warriors have specializations, while invokers must master spells,
while bards get all the same songs but have repetoires, while
yadda yadda). This is all in line with it. My changes:

1) Orcs shouldn't be very strong. They should stay at the same
state as they are now, or less. They shouldn't be designed to
"match up" with the other classes.
2) Orcs should rank insanely fast, I personally would make them
gain three times as much xp as they already do, counting the Orc
group bonus.
3) Maybe make them lose con faster like every 2 deaths.
4) Orcs should get some more at-home advantage type abilities
for fighting on their own turf (ie. since they're so damned rare,
kinda like since Scarabs were so damned rare they had Revanants)
and perhaps also allow them some sort of cave system that connects
their village to other places.

As the current system is set up there isn't a large enough
playerbase to have many Orcs plus all the other cabals. Part of
the reason you don't see high level Orcs is the same reason that
many Anathema's or "Exile of Scion"'s or whatnot delete, they
don't have a real set goal. My system says screw goals, Orcs
are so quick-in quick-out that they're just fun, faceless
creatures (unless they want to RP otherwise).

Also, having invested less time in killing those wandering elves,
dryads, orphans, elite storm giant soldiers, and other stuff
which, although a staple of this mud, and having its own use in
some way, is still boring and monotonous, they would be more
willing to make sacrifices (ie. act evil - has an Orc -EVER-
used steal against the only other one they can steal from -
another Orc?)

Anyways, this is my take on a "different" approach to Orcs.

- Kazadan

Orcs should kind of suck at lowbie levels. However, they should be able to sickly power to hero, where they can continue to suck, unless they stick around the orc village, where maybe some mobs can mess people up for them.

I just don't see how this makes for a more attractive race/class.

Pretty much, except that Orcs do not suck that much. When
they do suck is in fightinglarge numbers of diverse enemies that
have backup healers (ie. Fortress), very strong cabal
powers (ie. Deathblow), large numbers (ie. Empire and
Fortress, sorta), characters with exceptional ability
against Orcs (ie. Paladins, People Protected from Bash).
In these situations, you bring a horde. My solution will
make having hordes easier, and would offer a different
feel to the race/class.

My cents,
- Kazadan

So how about some kind of 'bitch slap' skill before 32 and 'fourth attack' on 50th rank?
Would this make guys happy?

Personally I think orc is too powerful around rank 15 (compared to other classes) and totally unable to compete on 42+.
So near-hero orcs are nearly as rare as liches. Well, almost.
But this is just my perception.

Something in fashion of giving orcs fourth attack at level 47. I might have ranked to hero as Murgh if there had been some skill there that I would have found specifically appealing. Warriors have legacies and second specialization, a rather strong incentive to rank for them, don't you think? I don't really think that just dash is quite enough a reason to rank so high, as other classes tend to get more(especially due to the fact that I). I don't really know, but Imms and former or current Hero orcs, do give your comments about this idea.

>I was mulling over the orc thread from Gnarugk's graveyard
>post with a couple esteemed colleagues of mine, and came to
>the following conclusion about orcs and why they are 'weak.'
>
>Orcs receive zero damage skills, with the exception of savage
>feeding, which is primarily linked to bash, although a couple
>other orc skills can trigger it in certain situations. And
>from lvls 1-31 they receive none at all,

Kick! Kick! With orcs, Kick has found a home!

>with perhaps the exception of the new skill 'pin,' which
>requires the sacrifice of dual wielding.

Pin really isn't the kind of skill you're describing. If you're
wielding the right weapon, you would kick yourself for not
having Pin, but it's not like Jab for example.

>As an assault-based class, Orcs lack means to generate damage
>aside from automatic melee attacks. After thinking about this
>for a bit, it seems to me that trying to 'fix' orcs is like
>one of those times when you're trying to find your pen only to
>discover you're holding it.

Monorail! Monorail! What's it called?! Monorail!

>Orcs can't out-warrior warriors, they can't out-thief thieves,
>and although the new skills are neat and helpful outside of
>combat, they don't compensate for the lack of melee-based options.

Those specific skills really weren't supposed to, but I do think
they have hit their intended mark. Back to this..

>To rectify this in the short term, I would propose something
>along the lines of the recent flail/whip attack additions
> these are just suggestions)
>
>War Paint (automatic extra strikes):
>
>By applying a mixture of crude dyes, mud, guano, or whatever
>else may be on hand, orcs can gain new levels of ferocity.
>After applying the paint, orcs are known to strike at times
>with near-unstoppable force.
>
>Beastial Strike:
>
>Much akin to the notorious manoever Savage Feeding, less
>skilled orcs can lash out, biting and slashing, possibly
>transmitting disease.
>
>Maybe something else that is weapon-based. Bloodsteep sounds
>cool, but again, it isn't something that is going to win a
>pk.

Doesn't sound unreasonable that they could get something like
a sting or jab or backhand or whatever. Something to do if
they fail to recognize the beauty of Kick.

I loved fighting orcs with my warriors. Now, after trying an orc, I know why it was so much fun

>Pin really isn't the kind of skill you're describing. If you're
wielding the right weapon, you would kick yourself for not
having Pin, but it's not like Jab for example.

Yes, I assume that you mean 'long' weapons. However, I would counter with that if I am wielding the 'right' weapon to use Pin, I'd be kicking myself for not dual wielding two axes to get those extra, harder to block attacks. If you want to add another skill of some sort that gives orcs more incentive to give that up, I'd say Pin would be attractive. It would have to be one helluva damage move to make me feel it was worth it.

Crushing assault is a damage skill. You use it. You do more damage.

And there's a very likely chance that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits, noninclusive of damage upon failing. Throw in a locked wimpy, and that's not fun.

It reduces the parrying of the enemy, thereby increasing your damage. Just because it doesn't do damage in the orthodox way does not mean it isn't a damage skill.

Basically it is good against classes with good defense and not great hp, and that's purely because you can soak up the damage and they can't.

I don't see how you can deny it is a damage skill though when the use of the skill increases the damage you do.

Does ALOT more than reduce parrying for one round. It is a damage skill. It reduces dex, on the tune of 10+ at hero, and increases the amount of damage the target takes, to the tune of soften like numbers. It also greatly reduces a target's ability to flee. Crushing assault is one of the many misunderstood abilities that orcs get. Orcs are not nearly as weak as you people seem to think, and if I had the time/desire + any sort of prepping ability, I'd be tempted to show everyone how it is done, but short of that, I will have to pass on the knowledge I do have, and correct common misconceptions.

Laearrist

p.s. While I'm at it, pin is cheap shot(ish).
p.p.s. With a chance of savage feeding on crushing assault, it's as good a damage skill as nearly anyone gets.
p.p.p.s. Crushing assault means my orcs would rather beat down arial swords specs than mess with dwarf axe specs any day of the weak. Don't beleive me, try it out and see.

>Crushing assault is a damage skill. You use it. You do more
>damage.

I think he was looking for a straight-up whittle-em-down
damage dealing kind of skill. I saw CA there, but was pretty
sure it didn't fit the bill for the kind of skill that Enbuergo
is hungering for.

Absent Kick as the savior of orcs, might I suggest they verse
themselves in certain exotic weapons pending future tweaking.

I've seen quite effective use of using spinebreaker as a damage technique. Though yes, against people with bash protection, orc damage output tends to drop significantly due to no savage feeding. Though, many of these people are the sort that one or two good lagging attacks of any sort, and they'll eat up enough damage to keel over dead. However, not to belittle kick, but it *IS* probably one of the blandest skills out there, and a little spice is always a good thing. Hence, my suggestion for a damage skill would probably be themed around crippling the opponent. Generally similar to savage feeding, but obviously less damage, less effective (since you can just USE it, not have to tack on to a bash), where the orc attacks the enemy in whatever manner they can reach them, trying to break bones, shred muscles, etc. Or, now that the brain's chugging a little, maybe something that works similar to crushing assault as well, but damage-dealing instead of parry-block. Orc dashes in close, biting and clawing however he can. Better damage than the other theme, but as you're forgoing any reasonable semblance of defense, you're going to get beat on too. The orc's generally just assuming they can deal out more of a beating than they can take.

PS: Dash is awesome. How dare you deny the effectiveness of dash!? Now, overrun...that's a skill I've never figured out. Imms have said it's working as designed, then...give us a frickin' hint what the hell it's supposed to do? I've used it in fights, and seen logs of those fights from the other side, and STILL don't have a clue.

Not with the idea. I like the idea.

What I disagree with is a locked wimpy in conjunction with skills that cause massive damage when they fail (as in your second idea). I know on one hand it sounds good that orcs should be 'forced' to be cowards. However, orc-type close-quarter skills that make this forced cowardice kick in put the orc at a severe disadvantage. It looks nice on paper, but is very hard to deal with in practice.

Maybe, as Shokai would say, this is what Roleplay is for. Considering that the orcs players play for the most part can be considered the extremely rare 'heroes' of orcs that rise far above the common drudge scum, perhaps these are the orcs that have overcome their cowardice. Or not. As you the player decide.

Considering that the orcs players play for the most part can be considered the extremely rare 'heroes' of orcs that rise far above the common drudge scum, perhaps these are the orcs that have overcome their cowardice. Or not. As you the player decide.

People floated this argument about morale as well, as "Why can't I decide how happy my character feels?" The underlying issue is that the vast majority of players would powergame and ignore the excessive cowardice unless it was a hard-wired limitation of orc-dom.

This is tangentially related to my running argument against characters who want to roleplay atypical alignments for their race. Joe Orc isn't going to wake up one day and find great reserves of courage any more than he's going to wake up one day and decide that he really enjoys sacrficing himself to help other people. We want orcs to be different from evil humans in a fairly radical way, and mechanical devices like enforced wimpy serve as a constant reminder of 'orc-ness'.

As for overall power level, orcs as a whole:
1) Whip a lot of ass up to around level 35.
2) Don't level above 35 much.

This tells me that the playerbase thinks orcs don't do well over 35. It also tells me that the playerbase thinks orcs are plenty effective below that threshold, which is backed up by the fact that a large number of orcs are seeing PK success there. Whether or not orcs actually are relatively weak above 35 is more of an open topic, but I'm definitely not convinced lower-level orcs need much of anything.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Joe Orc isn't going to wake up one day and find great reserves of courage any more than he's going to wake up one day and decide that he really enjoys sacrficing himself to help other people.

Very true. But Joe orc is one of the inbred punks in the Warrens, not a lvl 35+ orc. I realize that you have changed the orc wimpy, so I will have to wait a bit to see how that works out before commenting further. I will say, however, that I believe that perhaps at lvl 45 and up, orcs should be able to set their own wimpies, as they are what I would consider 'orc elite' and far above the common rabble orcs you describe.

>This tells me that the playerbase thinks orcs don't do well over 35.

Personally, I think you put too little faith in the playerbase. Some pretty good players have tried orcs, and pretty much everyone has reported they are weak at these levels. My leaning is to say 'the playerbase is probably right.'

Also, it would be neat if the player orc chief got Bolg's bodyguards while in the village