OK. Here's an idea I was kicking around for a new Evil Outlander Power.

Basically, it's a twist on subvert that works slightly like Nightwalker. When the evil outlander subverts a guard, the guard turns into an NPC that follows the outlander around (not a controllable merc, but an independent NPC like Nightwalkers/conjurer summons/etc.). The guard maintains whatever powers the original guard had and subvert is expanded to include any cityguards. So if you are high enough level to subvert a gate guard (for example) a mob that can weaponbreak/dent/whatever will be following you. The timer would probably have to be longer than regular subvert, as well.

So, to sum it up:

1. Evil Outlander Power.
2. Twist on subvert.
3. Lengthen the recharge time.
4. Can subvert any guard-type mob.
5. Once subverted, the guard-type mob follows the Evil Outlander and aids him like a Nightwalker would.
6. Guard-type mob retains its special attacks that it had as a guard (bash/weaponbreak/et al).

1. I think guard type mobs include the executioner (in Galadon)? A druid, for example, can safely attempt subversion again and again, breaking off it if fails (the same with the specced guards). Yet once they've got this mob, it seems kind of unbalanced. Seriously, just imagine what you'd say if special guards were specced.

2. I just have this image of 4 evil outlanders being followed by four guards. That starts to feel kind of like outlander having their own guard.

I would far sooner just see the subverted special guards track.

Hey, Daurwyn, thanks for the reply. I owe you one. Here's what I meant:

As an initial note, I thought this power was appropriate for an Evil Outlander because they're fomenting rebellion and sowing the seeds of chaos.

>1. I think guard type mobs include the executioner (in
>Galadon)?

(Ans.) Of course, there would be limitations. (FN1). It's not like the Orc's skill "enslave" can make a merc out of Tremblefist. I was thinking of use in the protected cities, Balator, Imperial Lands, and Tribunal/Empire cabal HQ's (obviously, some guard-type mobs would have to be added in some cases; and some cities would not be appropriate for this (e.g. Voralian)).

>A druid, for example, can safely attempt subversion
>again and again, breaking off it if fails (the same with the
>specced guards).


(Ans.) Which was why I suggested the longer recharge time in between uses. FYI, it's already around 7 hours - longer than it takes Magistrates to recall guards, so making the time even longer would be substantial.


>Yet once they've got this mob, it seems kind
>of unbalanced. Seriously, just imagine what you'd say if
>special guards were specced.
>

(Ans. 1) You cannot compare spec'd Magistrate special guards to what I am suggesting. If you want to know why, look at (FN2)

(Ans. 2) OK. Imagine if these subverts I'm talking about could just poison you, make you bleed, and unleash a pugil for an OBLIT. Still overpowered? Well.. I just described a Nightwalker. Still sound overpowered?

(Ans. 3) I wasn't thinking of anything extremely powerful, I was trying to think of a fun new "utility" power for Evil Outlanders to put them on par with the other alignments (who get, for example, Beast Call). I imagined that the Imms could draw up a bunch of utility-type mobs and plant them around the cities - that would do different things, and the Evil Outlander could have the choice of which guy he wanted to subvert. Like, some of these dudes could use ignite.

(Ans. 4) Considering I'm one of the few that fought multiple sets of revenants in the Scarab Temple on a consistent basis, which were FAR FAR more powerful than what I'm suggesting, I'd probably just bitch and try to figure out a way to win anyway. I've played an Evil Outlander, I have a good idea of their powers, I have a good idea of other cabals' powers - I don't think this is more powerful.

>2. I just have this image of 4 evil outlanders being followed
>by four guards.


(Ans. 1) Not guards. Not even "traitorous guards" (a name which I dislike). I'm talking REBELS! Bloodthirsty, pissed off rebels that are bent on unleashing their anger.

(Ans. 2) So the "Rebels" stop following them at the border of the civilized area, and either disappear or stay a couple of hours to wander and spread fires.

(Ans. 3) OK. I admit, it's been maybe a year since I played an evil Outlander (Malkhar). But. Have there *EVER* been four high level Evil Outlanders? Where is this mental image you have coming from?


>That starts to feel kind of like outlander
>having their own guard.
>


(Ans.) Not guards.. REBELS. Rebels hellbent on spreading chaos and rebellion.


>I would far sooner just see the subverted special guards
>track.

(Ans.) I'm not sure what you mean, here. I'm talking about giving Evil Outlanders something "extra". Are you saying they have enough?


***

(FN1): Limitations including but not limited to Executioner, Blood Tribunal Captain, Blood Tribunal Executioner, Vanquisher, or any other badass mobs outside the pale that you can think of.

(FN2): Every Magistrate can call special guards with an extremely short timer --> Only Evil Outlanders can subvert guards in this manner. Every Magistrate has full control over their guards, including but not limited to rescuing and looting --> Evil Outlanders would not have this control. Magistrate special guards can affect everyone, in and out of PK --> Evil Outlander subverts would only affect people in PK. Magistrates outnumber Evil Outlanders 10-to-1 (and I think that's a conservative estimate).

I would sooner see subverted guards given the ability to track.

As it is, they turn on a trib, but then just stand around when the trib moves off (as far as I can see).

If they were made to track the trib they turned on, that would be an increase in outlander power.

However, you have stretched some of your arguments a little far. Special guards can only affect those people that are wanted, outside of pk.

Also, people out of pk can subvert trib guards. The trib doesn't have the option of holding a status that gives him immunity to them. So when a trib is on duty, two heros can come along, subvert trib guards, whilst the lowbie attacks the trib.

Not saying that I don't think outlanders could use a little extra. Just saying that I think you are perhaps overstating the strength of special guards.

If anything, it is the short term sequester ability of manacles I'd be more worried about.

>I would sooner see subverted guards given the ability to
>track.
>
>As it is, they turn on a trib, but then just stand around when
>the trib moves off (as far as I can see).
>
Subverted guards track like normal mobs, i.e. they move two rooms every hour. That was what I experienced with Drahke anyway. Subvert is a good skill, but as I have already argued I think it should be retained even without the fetish.

>However, you have stretched some of your arguments a little
>far. Special guards can only affect those people that are
>wanted, outside of pk.
>
>Also, people out of pk can subvert trib guards. The trib
>doesn't have the option of holding a status that gives him
>immunity to them. So when a trib is on duty, two heros can
>come along, subvert trib guards, whilst the lowbie attacks the
>trib.

True, but the tribunal has the option not to call guards, if they are out of range.

>If anything, it is the short term sequester ability of
>manacles I'd be more worried about.

I agree completely. I once stated that sequester was fine, in so far it is the major deterrent for messing with tribunals. However, when you are more or less forced to deal with it (when retrieving for instance) it is extremely bothersome. I sometimes tried to find a lowlevel tribunal to manacle me, so that the higher ones in range could not sequester me for several hours.

In response to Balrahd's suggestion. I would love to have a rebel (nightwalker) with me! But I think that the way the subverted guards already work makes more sense from a RP point of view. After rebelling or whatever, the former guards should be out wrecking havoc, not following around the outlander like a dog in tow.

I could swear my guards never tracked me.