I know this thread isn't gonna shake anybodies boat, or get any constructive responses (CFers are notoriously set in their ways).. But none-the-less, I gotta get this off my chest.


In my opinion, I am investing too much time into my character to have it lose tons of con against asinine deathtraps.

I have no idea why there are so many deathtraps on CF. I get the feeling that everybodies first few characters kill themselves on all of the various DT's. That's lame, CF is dangerous enough without so many time-hogging DTs.

My biggest complaint, is that the most obvious deathtrap warnings do not label deathtraps. They label hidden area's, shrines, and passageways.

I'm not a fan of deathtraps, I never have been. I can live with deathtraps that are well implemented. When I die to a deathtrap on CF, I usually scroll back and get extremally frustrated with the lack of description in the rooms prior.

-nuff said

I know you mention that room descriptions don't hold enough warning, but did you know of the look command?

If you look east and the description is big sharp pointy teeth grin at you beckoning you to step forward, my bet is that you really shouldn't step forward.

Although I can vouch for killing many many people that way that dared to let me lead in a group.

Also let me ask you this, have you ever had a character con or age die? If your answer is no then who cares about one death, learning from that spot will let you know the area more.

My character is 30 hps less then he could be,
because of DT's.

Probably would of lived through a few pdeaths
if he had those 30 hps. I can't say for sure.

Mostly it's just the waste of time that gets me.

Enlightened Thinker, you mean.

You didn't even answer any of his questions. You just picked up your whine where you left off.

Listen. DT's are annoying, sure, but if you use just the LOOK command you can avoid dying.

I can't point out one spot where there was *NO* indication that maybe BAD STUFF was coming. I *CAN* point out dozens of times over the years where I've walked into a room, gotten confident, kept going, saw a part of the description change, continued walking and bam, died. If I would have stopped to read I wouldn't have gone further, but that's the name of the game.

It isn't unfair... and remember, you're the one who went exploring in the first place. Be a real explorer and be observant, then.

In conclusion, I would agree with you if there wasn't an abundance of proof otherwise... which there is.

Advice, if you choose to heed it, instead of replying just because you like typing, is this: Use the LOOK command. In fact, if you're exploring and NOT using it, you could be missing out on a lot of things. Sometimes things are hidden WITHIN objects in rooms, etc.

Bleh.

I share Nivek's and Zepachu's sentiment about your past history and so forth. Claiming you never get constructive responses is... well, the evidence doesn't support your claim, despite your best efforts to engineer flamewars.

I'm not aware of a single deathtrap in an area that isn't strongly hinted at in previous rooms. (incognito- please email me your one counterexample and I'll see what we can do.) You're much more likely to die because you aren't keeping an eye for hostile PCs or NPCs. However, we don't want to reward exploration by mashing of buttons, and as other posters have pointed out, if you're observant you don't hit them.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

What do deathtraps do for the terminally curious like me? They kill us of course. I died to one particular deathtrap around 20th level, but even though the executing blow seemed to be from a mob named 'certain death', I foolishly thought that maybe if I returned with a near hero (48/49 or so) I just might be able to live. Wrong.

The strange thing with this death trap is that although the room descriptions as you get closer tell you you're about to die, if you do the old look and scan ahead thing at one point you see what looks like a treasure chest. So, this one is to punish the observant yet greedy? I tried it a second time from simple curiosity, and ended up just waiting for my things to return to the pit so I could keep my con up for the last few levels. What happens while I wait at the pit? Someone below 10th level takes a handful of my limited items before I can.

What a nice reward for curiosity.

---Quislet

PS. No, I'm not bitter, this was a while back. I'm just trying to use biting sarcasm.

If you sit at the pit, everyone knows you are waiting for gear.

If you just pass by periodically, they don't, so you probably won't check it.

>If you sit at the pit, everyone knows you are waiting for gear.
>
>If you just pass by periodically, they don't, so you probably won't check it.

Excellent point and good strategy. At the time I hadn't had to wait for my equipment in so long that I didn't remember how long it takes, so I waited to make sure I at least got some of it. A risk, but at the time necessary.

I still want to know why there seems to be a chest somewhere that's sure to kill anyone instantly. I didn't see the chest in the room as I died, so if there is one it's not an obvious item. Maybe I should've risked the con and went back for my things and a look around, but there's always the point that some things kill ghosts too.

Which brings up the question: Do any/all deathtraps also kill ghosts? Are all the actual deathtraps non-lethal to ghosts? I seem to recall getting killed by falling onto sharp rocks as a ghost once.

In fact, I still think it might have been my note that got the ghost message changed to say that ghosts aren't invulnerable, or whatever it now says.

I suspect that some deathtraps can be avoided if you work out how.

Deathtraps seem to be geared towards killing the curious explorers.

In the end, is the benefit worth the cost? I explore to find
preps. That's rewarding, sure. It's not very efficient or good
for my character.. I can get the same information by using the
biggest resource on the mud: other players.

For all that I make friends on the mud, and ask IC about preps..
I imagine (god forbid.. right?) that there are just as many IM
conversations raging about the same content.

What does the first guy to find the prep get? Squat? Conloss?

Soon as the information circulates IC or OOC... His or Her
effort means nothing.


I think we should stop tricking ourselves into thinking that prep
locations are sacred, and that the only way to compete with the
dissemination of knowledge is to hide preps better, add more DT's
and make area's more dangerous. This practice only hurts one kind
of person.. the kind of person who we should be supporting for their
patience and curiousity.

The general consensus is that exploring is deadly pre-30 or hero.
That sounds like a bad thing.

I think we should stop tricking ourselves into thinking that prep
locations are sacred, and that the only way to compete with the
dissemination of knowledge is to hide preps better, add more DT's
and make area's more dangerous. This practice only hurts one kind
of person.. the kind of person who we should be supporting for their
patience and curiousity.

In other words, make exploring so challenge-free that no one ever dies doing it. This isn't going to happen. Right now, there's reward, and there's risk. Just like PK, gaining levels, etc.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

True.. True.. I don't know what the ultimate answer is,
but I feel that the risk in exploring is too great when
it's so easy just to ask other people.

It's easier and safer to ask somebody you trust how
to do an area. I think that's what I'll do from now
on. (ICly of course) =)

If finding stuff was as easy as asking, everyone would just ask.

Fact is, you have to form a solid basis before people are going to share much out, not just ask. That takes as much effort as exploring.

Beyond that, I all my best stuff I find by exploring on my own. People don't tell you of their best preps. Lots of people don't know about the stuff. There are at least two pieces of gear that I know other people must have yet I've never seen anyone besides me wear, and no way am I going to tell someone where to get them.

I can't think of many (any?) preps that require you to take a risk of walking into a deathtrap. And my preps include a lot of things:

- haste, slow, fly, spiderhands, stoneskin, barrier, shield, aura, stoneskin, major ward, sanc, tenacity, rage, clarity, endurance, cures for deafen, plague, poison, blindness, pills of refresh, heal, detect invis, enlarge, faerie fog, potions of enlarge, reduce, resist elements, resist mental, remove curse, pass door, recall, gear of resist almost anything apart from holy etc. I'm sure if I thought about it more there are other preps I've had.

All that I got without once walking into a deathtrap except in cases where I wasn't using the look, exa/read, scan and tell commands properly.

Your claim that you can't explore without deathtrap problems is pretty baseless from the evidence presented. To lose 30 hp you must have walked into 9 deathtraps, or some of that con loss was accrued by other deaths. Agreed, reduced hp leads to further deaths in pk (although in most cases it should lead more to fewer wins rather than more losses if you are pk'ing well). However, when this character dies you will still retain the benefits of exploring, without the drawbacks of the con loss.

>Deathtraps seem to be geared towards killing the curious explorers.

If you have any caution (which I typically don't), but sufficient curiosity to look at everything, the death traps won't kill you. Apparently you need either more caution or more curiosity.

By the way, I've died far more often to aggresive mobs than to actual deathtraps.

>In the end, is the benefit worth the cost? I explore to find preps.

I've only explored for one prep source in years, and I eventually found it, the detect invis prep so many people love. I asked IC for hints, and tracked it down in person.

No, people don't tell me where they are, typically I don't give a #### about preps. They're not part of how I like to play. I explore for the same reason I once wandered around a water purifying plant after closing: I like to see things most people never/rarely do.

>What does the first guy to find the prep get? Squat? Conloss?

If they keep it a secret, they get a prep. Big whoop. If they tell others, they could make deals to exchange information, or make friends, or all sorts of things interesting to play out.

If (like the IRC OOC squads) they keep the information to their little circle so tons of people know but nobody outside their group knows: That's what I think annoys the IMMs. It's like what happened to me my first time playing Warcraft 2 against someone else. He knew the cheat codes, I didn't. So I lost. The preps aren't as unbalancing as that Warcraft example, but there's a similarity there.


>I think we should stop tricking ourselves into thinking that prep
>locations are sacred, and that the only way to compete with the
>dissemination of knowledge is to hide preps better, add more DT's
>and make area's more dangerous.

Quit thinking preps are sacred. They're not. Preps are just stuff. There's plenty of stuff going around. Also I know of NO cases where deathtraps were added to make it harder to acquire the 'sacred preps'.

>This practice only hurts one kind of person.. the kind of person who
>we should be supporting for their patience and curiousity.

Why should patience and curiosity be supported? If those traits are used properly, they are their own reward.

>The general consensus is that exploring is deadly pre-30 or
>hero. That sounds like a bad thing.

Not true. My best exploring days were back when you could get into huge xp holes through mob deaths. I was in the mid twenties, getting bored because I'd piled up too many mob deaths at one level, so I went around exploring alone. I did pretty well actually, but many areas I'd checked out have changed since then, so I should get more exploring done again.

I share Nivek's sentiment about your past history and so forth.

At any rate, Death traps are really not that big of a problem. If you use the LOOK and EX commands you can generally see from the description, or if you look in a direction, what's up with it. If LOOKING is telling you that the path is getting "more and more trecherous"... step back if you don't want to take the risk.

The general CF attitude is for exploration, though. It's just a fact of life. Most people would rather go on when seeing that message, because they might find something "really, really cool."

Let's face it. The Immortals here are sick. That's why I like this place so much. The area designers will hide nifty things in tree stumps, rewarding the observant. They'll also put in a death trap, punishing the unobservant.

To me it's that simple.

>I know this thread isn't gonna shake anybodies boat, or get
>any constructive responses (CFers are notoriously set in their
>ways).. But none-the-less, I gotta get this off my chest.

Constructive responses are the result of reasonable discussion. Having a past history of disparaging, denying and completely shooting down posts that offer you said constructive criticism is not going to endear you to anyone whether they are "set in their ways" or not. Supporting your own arguments with different forum IDs doesn't help either.

>In my opinion, I am investing too much time into my character
>to have it lose tons of con against asinine deathtraps.
>
>I have no idea why there are so many deathtraps on CF. I get
>the feeling that everybodies first few characters kill
>themselves on all of the various DT's. That's lame, CF is
>dangerous enough without so many time-hogging DTs.

As someone else mentioned, losing 1/3 of a CON while retaining your gear is not that big of a penalty when you consider the benefits you reap when you find something useful in the area. As an example, there could be a dozen useful/cool/interesting rooms/items in an area as opposed to one deathtrap, if any.

>My biggest complaint, is that the most obvious deathtrap
>warnings do not label deathtraps. They label hidden area's,
>shrines, and passageways.

While I agree that there are no signs in big bold letters that say, "DO NOT GO WEST OR YOU WILL DIE!" there are usually some hints that would make you consider not taking that extra step. In an environment like CF, where anything and everything can be dangerous, the hints provided are appropriate.

>I'm not a fan of deathtraps, I never have been. I can live
>with deathtraps that are well implemented. When I die to a
>deathtrap on CF, I usually scroll back and get extremally
>frustrated with the lack of description in the rooms prior.

Yeah, deathtraps can totally suck. The worst is when you lead your group into one. The overall benefits, however, usually outweigh the detriments. And besides, maybe you found something to use to your tactical advantage in a PK.

>-nuff said

Nivek

Look is your friend. I don't know of one Deathtrap that you can't look in the direction and see.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

But I think Death-traps are good. Here's why:

There aren't enough to seriously hurt a characters con. If the same character walks into 6 deathtraps he loses 2 con. If he's intelligent no one is going to manage to loot his gear as a result.
6 deathtraps for one character is a hell of a lot to walk into. You have to be a slow learner for that.

Death traps add risk, which is necessary to justify rewards. The helpfile Josiah talks about mentions a "leap of faith". Where would the leap of faith be if you could tell that this wasn't a deathtrap and other deathtraps were deathtraps? It is pretty damn obvious if you ask me that this one is different if you look at room descriptions nearby.

Deathtraps that lead to other areas? I assume you mean things like the whirlpool? I don't see anything wrong with one whirlpool leading to an area while another you get stuck in. There is a command called "tell" that let's you ask people you know about whether a particular thing is dangerous.

Nastiest deathtrap I ever saw was a pond that if you drink from it kills you. But I still think that was really cool.

How any character can lose more than 2 con to deathtraps and find it a problem is beyond me. If they are an exploration character (which they'd need to be to find so many deathtraps) then they don't need con much. If they are not an exploration character, they won't encounter so many deathtraps.

Sorry I didn't reply individually to these, but a bunch of people emailed me on the topic, and I'm somewhat wary about giving away what to look or not look for on each individual case. I looked over the DTs in question, and I think only one of them doesn't have a clear warning in the immediate area. (There may be one elsewhere in the area, or something I didn't think of.) I'll talk to the area author next time I see them to see what the intent was, but I haven't found them online since I found time to check these.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com