When I was Yuyuya the scions would take the head and give it to the orc village to hold. But there was nothing to take from the orcs.

Having implemented the idea that orcs can take and hold cabal items, shouldn't there be something to take from the orc village, the absence of which has consequences for all orcs of that village?

>Having implemented the idea that orcs can take and hold cabal
>items, shouldn't there be something to take from the orc
>village, the absence of which has consequences for all orcs of
>that village?

Consider it another part of their unique place in the game.

Providing that orcs get some more loving and they get some nice clan power, which they would lose when the item is taken. I would not weaken the current orcs. BTW, you do know that orcs tank like soft bricks, do you?

Yes, orcs have nothing to be taken... but at the same time they aren't given any cabelesque powers. So in affect orcs are permantly without a cabal item. I don't think of orcs taking cabal items as involvement in cabal politics. I think of it more as orcish thievery choosing an easy/weak target, or as a direct order from Thrak.

Besides that, how hard is it to retrieve from the orcs? It usually involves killing an outer, which just about any class over 25th level can do if there is no opposition.

That's just a bad idea.

If orcs can take an item, keep it, and deprive another group of their powers, why should they be immune to the same? They shouldn't. If they want to play the cabal game and join the fights, that's great, but they need to have something to lose to make it balanced.

The real question is what should the affects be of the orc item's absence from the orc village. Perhaps the ability to use the shaman for healing? To hide? To go on the forced march? I don't know orcs that well, so please feel free to suggest in this regard.

Nice reasoning you gave though, I do need to bow to the logic of your long, well constructed argument.

but I completely disagree that orcs should have an item that can be taken. The idea was to give orcs an in route into involvement in cabal wars since they're not allowed to be in cabals themselves. There are very few orcs as it is, which is a real shame, and making it such that the huge hordes of caballed characters could take their item would do nothing but further stunt their growth. Back when we were discussing orcs taking items the belief was that they'd probably only ever do it if there was little danger involved. There's what, one orc over 35 right now? They're almost a non-factor, why would you want to kick them in the junk while they're down?

You and the others (I'll respond to the post above here together) are not thinking straight on this, you're thinking too narrow and not conceptually. You are looking at it like the people who look at cabal wars look at it with a snapshot and, when there are too many of one cabal, yell "Overpowered!"

Think if there were 50 orcs, and they routinely had the cabal items. You would need to go into their village - with all the various autoattack mobs and hiding orcs, etc. - and try to take back your item against the defenders. You'd kick and scream about it here. You know you would.

The issue is to make things balanced. The poster above mentioned that orcs are not a cabal and so they are always in the state of being without an item. But any character has what it has because the structure's been created to give it those skills or powers. Orcs are the same. I'm all for giving incentives to more people for participating in cabal wars. That makes it fun. But every party needs to have something to gain and something to lose. There's no fun if one side can always take from you, but you can do nothing back. I'd think it would be the same from the other side. I would be bored knowing I can take their item but they can do nothing to me.

Which is why I suggested things which are both specific to orcs, and to the orc village which is central to their life. Taking some sort of orc relic and putting it in your cabal having some affect on those orcs - like depriving the shaman of being able to heal level 15 or 20+ orcs (I think it should still be able to heal newbies and lowbie characters), or being able to hide in the village, or some other orc-only skill - would mean the orcs would have something to think about when they did it. And, even better, they wouldn't just be flunkies for anyone who wanted to use them. A player of an orc could actually have choices to make. Doesn't that also make the game better?

It's a stupid idea from a game balance perspective AND a role perspective. From a game balance perspective they'd never have this orcish relic. They have two built-in enemy cabals (Fortress and Outlander) and one that would take their item just because they can (Empire). The only other cabal that has this kind of aggression aimed at them from a number of sides is Empire and they thrive on numbers. I know of ONE orc above 35 and that's the Chieftain. You said yourself you don't know anything about orcs. I suggest you try and play one before you start speaking about them because it's not an easy life. Try and kill the maran tara'bal as an orc. It's not a pleasant experience. The Watcher is even worse. I know because I had to keep Gnarugk alive against the Watcher and it was a pain in the ass.

Being an orc is hard enough which should be apparent from their low numbers in spite of the loving they've received. Taking away skills essentially forever is not the way to make them better. Besides that, they're orcs. They're stupid, lazy, and cowardly. If I'm an orc and somebody takes my relic I adapt to life without it, rather than going after the damn thing.

Your whole argument is really the perfect testament to why orcs shouldn't be able to hold cabal items. They wouldn't care in the first place, as you say.

But they can. Having made that decision, they should then also be subject to the same thing.

And your point about the hard life of an orc is really not valid. It's no less hard for the lone scion, the lone villager, the lone scarab, whatever. That's a numbers game. The theory though is that orcs (by game standards) now have an interest in cabal items, and depriving others of their powers. They should then be subject to reprisal of similar kind.

As for the person who posted that orcs need more loving, they have received more upgrades and new skills and abilities than any other class in a long time. All good. That has nothing to do with the notion that once you inject orcs into this facet of the game, as has been done, it should be full-on, not half-ass.

Lastly, they do get a few cabal powers. They have a cabal channel, which is arguably the best cabal power of all. They have their own healer, and a cabal home (their village) in which they can hide, and have aggro mobs to protect them. Beef up Tremblefist if you want to make their inner harder, and so harder to take their item.

But the theory, and the point, still stands. Now that they can hold items, and play in the cabal game, they should get not just the benefits but also the drawbacks.

I'd think you'd like it, that way dealings with orcs takes on a bit more strategy, not just "hey, let's give the orcs the items!" for kicks.

There will probably never be a time when a large group of orcs goes into a cabal and takes their item. They're always going to have non-orc help. I gave the orb to Gnarugk once (and Tremblefist was a bitch and didn't put it in the chest) because I was the only Imperial on and we could get to Tremblefist a lot faster than we could to the Palace. Gnarugk could not have taken the orb by himself. He probably could not have taken it with two other rank 50 orcs without substantial periods of rest/skin drinking. It's almost a non-factor because the item will be given to Tremblefist so rarely that you can continue on making an educated guess and having the outer nearly dead before your inner is actually killed.

The idea behind orcs taking items, and you can find the thread where the imms say this themselves, is that they're essentially being orcs and pillaging an already weak cabal (because they'd never be successful with any kind of defense). If I ever play a hero orc it will be less about getting the item (because I know the item is better guarded by others) than it will be about looting pits.

I'll leave it at this. If it happens I'll be surprised. If it happens I won't play orcs because as disillusioned as I am with the cabal system and happy-fun-time logins/offs I like orcs being available in such a way that I can be involved without being involved.

They are a bizatch to keep alive.

Your arrogant assumption that, we aren't conceptualizing smacks of a college freshman with a new word that makes him feel wordly.

Orcs are the only Characters I've been able to get into the 40's they are insanely hard to play.

They have it much harder than a Lone <Insert>


Go away.

Orcs do not need to be part of the cabal game. But they are. Having done that, they need an item of their own to be taken, and which has consequences for them when it's downed in another cabal. None of this has anything to do with how easy or hard it is to play an orc. Frankly, an orc is far more powerful than, say, a villager without the head. Further, the idea of what those consequences should be, when the orc item is taken, are up for grabs. But there should be some.

If you need me to spell it out in small, monosyllabic words, do let me know.

You say orcs are superior to Ragers with out the head. That’s saying orcs are superior to all warriors. This is patently false.

You may have had an orc, or been dealt with by an orc, but orcs are in no way superior to a warrior, even an uncabaled warrior. While I have destroyed warriors with my orcs, usualy a newbie, but I’ve never been beaten by an orc with my warriors. They can not defend themselves for crap, they are impossible to keep in a fight after a certain point, they only way to stay in is to per-a-lag ones self. They could not stand up to a raid that mustered the talents of multiple classes.

You say because one thing (Orcs being able to raid) is true, then another thing (They need to suffer for not raiding) must also be true.

Orcs Suffer already.

What you forgot to say in your post, is that you offered an opinion. And it seems rather ill thought and unqualified.

You say orcs are superior to Ragers with out the head. That’s saying orcs are superior to all warriors. This is patently false.

No, he's saying orcs are superior to warriors who cannot:
- Use items marked (Magical)
- Use potions
- Use pills
- Use healers in towns
- Group with magi
- Ask to be summoned out of dangerous places
Etc.

What you forgot to say in your post, is that you offered an opinion. And it seems rather ill thought and unqualified.

Not on the point you went after.

That said, I have zero interest in allowing orcs to be penalized for losing a cabal item. I like their current niche.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Orcs do not need to be part of the cabal game. But they are. Having done that, they need an item of their own to be taken, and which has consequences for them when it's downed in another cabal.

That's a non sequitur. Consider them a mercenary group. They don't benefit from holding their own item. I don't see why they need to lose powers for not doing so, nor do I see any OOC reason to invent such a need. Orcs are hardly a dominating presence.

If you need me to spell it out in small, monosyllabic words, do let me know.

Valg come back for what you ask: "No."

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Life is harder for a lone orc than a lone scion. Trust me. I've been both. The orc class's combination of low stealth and poor defense makes it very difficult to continually deal with threats, leaving mobility as the only reliable defense. Other classes are much better able to evade trouble or cause trouble than the orc. And I did have a decent ratio with my orcs, even the one that was wanted for over 100 hours until he finally ran out of gold, elf-blood, and potions that were needed to deal with the bands of citizens that tribs sent after him all over Thera. There are just several glaring weaknesses to the class though. That's not to say they are not good decent, but they do benefit more from allies than other classes, imho. The biggest weakness I can think off is that they have to live in the orc village. Honestly, that has allowed me to kill more orcs than anything else I know of.

I'm a fan orcs having no cabal item, i think orcs should get additional powers when they down an item. Each cabal item giving the orcs an extra power to use while they keep it locked down. Possibly something along the lines of if they have the head, the orcs get some orc variant of resist. If they have the scepter, they get some sort of dark ritual. Other items, i dunno.. maybe other people have ideas.

This could come out as rambling, i'm high.

Cheers.
Jhyrb.

Was thinking along that line too. Each cabal item the orcs hold give various powers.