This is going to be long. It's going to cover several topics.

I have logged maybe 1 hour of actually playing CF over the last month. I have put many more hours
into other CF related crap, like this post, because instead of being able to spend the time I
set aside to play CF in October, the opportunity I expected to be there was not (shifter forms).

1) How did the orc part of Orctober go? I obviously haven't logged enough hours to know, first hand,
but I suspect it was a flop, as is usual from my experience. If you are interested in suggestions
about how this could be improved for the future, feel free to reach out to me. I'm reaching out to
you, all you have to do is reach back. Doing so via these forums is not likely to be successful,
which I'll go into below.

2) You cannot have honest dialog so long as you care more about control/power than you do about
actually communicating with your players. Your unofficial forums and unofficial discord are both
much more active than your official (and only) channel of communication. Both are also available
to you to use. Both have much more lax standards for moderation/censorship. These are related.
As I stated in the ROTD, http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?3,1110812,1110812#msg-1110812 if you
shut down conversations and delete posts, the message is clear. We (staff) don't want to talk to
you. We (staff) don't value your opinions. We (staff) don't value you as players. The forums
are not marketing material.

You need look no further than Scrarab releasing posts sympathetic to him re: Hell closing and not
releasing those that are critical to see that you value controlling the conversation more than
an open dialog. The end result is simply you have no dialog.

3) The love it or leave it attitude is, and has always been, harmful to the game. The opposite of
love is not hate. The opposite of hate is not love. The opposite of both is apathy. I do not hate
CF. I hate parts of the experience. I also love CF, or I wouldn't put effort into any part of it.
Apathetic players stop posting. They stop playing. If your goal is to have more people enjoying
you game, this should be the thing you fear, not someone complaining on the forums, but the silent
ones who simply grow apathetic and leave entirely.

4) "Any player can have input on these changes", "Take the time and sink the effort into becoming a
member of the staff." This feels really disingenuous, especially to me, since I tried to do exactly
that and wasn't even afforded the opportunity to fail the HeroImm process. I suspect Murphy feels
similarly. I was honest and forthright in every part of my application. I do not believe I was
dealt with in kind.

Ishuli suggested player ideas could be implemented. By whom? Every idea that requires coder work
is dead on arrival if you've got no one to actually code it. This is a serious problem that you are
unwilling to address in a timely fashion.

5) Finally, a case study in a game that is very much within the genre of CF. It may be graphical,
but it is certainly "low" graphics, instead of "no" graphics.

From Wikipedia articale on Runescape:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneScape
"RuneScape, sometimes referred to as RuneScape 3, is a fantasy MMORPG developed and published by
Jagex, first released in January 2001."

So a game released 5 years after CF. Clearly retro and from the same general genre, if not
specifically a MUD.

From Wikipedia article on "Old School Runescape":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_School_RuneScape

"Old School RuneScape (OSRS) is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) developed and
published by Jagex. The game was first released on 22 February 2013 in response to the declining
playerbase and negative update reception of the original and then-current version of RuneScape. OSRS
was originally an exact copy of RuneScape as it was in August 2007, but has since received engine
improvements, new content, and quality of life patches. Proposed gameplay updates to the game are
voted on by players, and are only implemented if 75% of paying players accept them. Despite having a
smaller staff and a slower relative update schedule, OSRS had more than twice the active players that
RuneScape had by 2017. A mobile version of the game for Android and iOS was released on 30 October 2018."

Finally a graph of the active playerbase of both the mainline (yellow line labeled EOC) and the OSRS, or
"Old School RuneScape" since OSRS's release in 2013.

http://www.misplaceditems.com/rs_tools/graph/?display=avg&interval=qtr_yr&total=1

I am not suggesting this exact plan would work for CF, but the genre CF occupies, if expanded even a tiny
bit beyond the MUD box is far from dying. A game from 2001 can enjoy 60,000 simultaneous users. From
my very brief investigation on this thing I literally stumbled upon, that number seems likely to grow due
to the recent release of Android and iOS clients.

If CF dies, it isn't because the player's weren't playing right. Blaming the playerbase make no sense,
as we are not a collective group acting collectively, and we do not have collective power. If CF dies it
is because the people running the game let it die. That doesn't make you bad people, but blame is much
more squarely placed here than blaming the "playerbase" for "getting" Hell closed, or any other number
of things you want to place blame upon a bunch of individuals acting individually for.

Finally, a video on different types of players I think is worth watching for anyone who runs a game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQsJSqn71Fw

A couple quotes I like, for the lazy.

"It's not a problem if someone doesn't play the way you wish they did... It's not a problem if no one
cared about that NPC you spent all that time on, for instance... If they're having fun... And if they're
not having fun... Sometimes there's nothing you can do. You have to give yourself permission to say:
Okay. Maybe it wasn't meant to be."

"Thomas Aquinas said that when you look at a painting, you don't see the painting, you see a version of
it that you built in your head. And that version in your head is missing deatils the artist painted.
And you may see things they didn't paint, make connections or see context they didn't intend. Aquinas
said that the viewers act of creation is just as valid as the one the painter experienced. It's not the
artist's job to say "No, you got it wrong". The work has to speak for itself."

You need look no further than Scrarab releasing posts sympathetic to him re: Hell closing and not releasing those that are critical to see that you value controlling the conversation more than an open dialog.

This is unnecessarily (and ignorantly) adversarial. There were a number of both positive and negative replies to the announcement that did not get posted. I didn't think your reply added anything helpful and I have no interest in turning an announcement into an argument between the two player groups involved. If you want to argue about who has the better opinion, do it here in Gameplay. But operate on what you actually know and not what you simply suspect.

nt

Apparently the Book of Life has no pages...

About they took #metoo tome

cat /dev/random | pray

edit: code golf:

pray < /dev/random

I'm not sure what the persecution title is supposed to mean, but as
to the content of your post, I believe there is value in the open
and honest dissenting opinion being voiced. If you don't want that
on the announcements board, and I think you are 100% within reason
to not want that, then the obvious choice, in my opinion is to not
release any posts there, and simply move all responses to gameplay.

That may not be possible or easy with the forum software, but to
release, for instance, Rob's post, which I believe misrepresents the
discussion on Discord, feels like you are agreeing with his opinion
(which you probably do) while silencing other viewpoints.

He answered some responses, some of which a lot of other people were asking/thinking. That's not a discussion. It's an announcement, which is the name of that board. If you want a discussion, it's probably better to take it to the board that is DEDICATED to discussions. Like the gameplay board.

I was simply voicing my dissenting opinion on the merits of the decision. Sort of like I was announcing I thought the behavior of both the person who posted logs and of Scarab for closing Hell was child-ish. Equally so? Probably not, but that neither side handled the entire situation well.

A lot of other people might have been thinking what I was thinking? I mean I don't know what other people think.

For fuks sake dude.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but it seems like you are saying that I can't look at the actions of two people and say, this person behaved badly, that person's response to that was also not good. Both people could have behaved better.

So that you better understand my position, I'll outline it here, not that anyone should care, but it is worth my time to state.

Hell was cool. Like as a work of art it was clearly made with a lot of love and attention to detail. It was fun to explore the few times I was able to. I am not a person who generally enjoys the kinds of puzzles CF has to offer. They don't feel fun to me in the same way I don't find most crosswords enjoyable. I don't mind spoiling such things for myself, because the alternative is a lot of time spent doing something I don't enjoy. That said, I also think, from a gameplay perspective, I am glad that Hell is closed.

I may be miss-attributing things to Scarab that he didn't have a hand in, but my opinion is that Scarab is not generally the best at designing well-balanced things. I have no idea how much Scarab plays, or doesn't, but some of the gear from Hell was brokenly good. Free flurries from gear just aren't balanced and probably never were.

All that said, I think Scarab's decision to close Hell because logs were posted publicly is silly and somewhat childish. I know Hell info was shared OOC. Anyone who believes otherwise I think is being willfully ignorant of the realities of CF and info-sharing. Publicly shared Hell logs are, in my opinion, more fair than privately shared OOC info (which was already reality) because at least with something publicly distributed, everyone is on equal footing, instead of some people having access to Hell info (via private OOC sharing) and others not.

In this particular case, you have a player who was clearly invested to a point where they had a very emotional reaction to some bits of armor on their fantasy character in a text game getting removed. I think this is the other edge of the "investment" sword. Player's who are invested in their character will react emotionally to things that are bad for said character.

Did the player handle it well? #### no. Did the staff handle his tantrum well? I don't know, I wasn't present. Certainly from his perspective (and he's, in my opinion, a little crazy) it wasn't. He wanted an explanation and wasn't satisfied, so he threw a giant hissy fit and posted information against the author's wishes.

And now we come to now. I'm not trying to be "overly negative". I firmly believe the game is less rich, but more balanced for Hell being closed. I simply believe the reasoning behind it is silly and a bit childish, especially because this sharing of information was already happening.

Scarab doesn't need to defend his decision, and we aren't likely to agree on this particular point of philosophy as he has a fundamentally different opinion on art than I do. All I wanted to do was state my dissenting opinion, which I did.

Is Scarab not an adult? Can he not handle criticism? Is his ego so fragile we must all defend his every decision and though it is right and proper? I think not. I give him more credit than that.

You say you give him more credit but you sure don't act like it.

Have you considered that someone posting cheat sheets on Dio's is less
likely to be the reason it closed and actually just the straw that broke
the camel's back? For as long as I can remember 90% or more of hell
trips have been exclusively OOC permas to begin with, someone posting
the logs on Dio's means a bunch of people saw it before it was taken off
and copies were already passing around the likely suspects, or at least
those of them that didn't already have it, which at this point anyone
who would of have abused the logs probably already has done so before.


Why does it even upset you that it was closed? You admit in your own
post that everything about Hell was broken and ruins game balance.
I can guarantee you nobody would even care if it didn't have all the
OP goodies, it wouldn't even be worth the effort.

Sent from my Iphone

I wouldn't take everything he says super serious. He sometimes makes really good points, but once in a while he's a very negative drone. Nobody is perfect.

I'm glad you spoke up here though. Really.

what are your thoughts on leaving Inferno open but making all the gear Illusionary?

i myself haven't been past the 2nd circle in 10 years and don't see myself exploring it anytime soon, but, were the opportunity to present itself i'd love to

(or enable goodies some sort of option to go there too)

https://youtu.be/dwgvIFM37k0?t=18

Maybe with a surprise cameo of Beront at 3:08.

Sad to see only Ish (again!) took the time to respond...

If me responding somehow ends up being a negative, I will be severely disappointed in the results of my own efforts . Should I just not respond so this doesn't become a complaint too? No! So shame on you .

-Ish

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but I'm pretty sure he meant that as a compliment to you while expressing his disappointed that more IMMs haven't weighed in.

Somewhat playful, somewhat serious. I actually dislike that me being heavy on communication somehow still results in disappointment about communication. Being a bit optimistic/positive (particularly given some of these post trends) is a benefit!

Complimenting me is cool and all, but I can still only do this because of the team effort involved on imm-staff. People contribute in various ways, and I wouldn't even have time to do posts like this if other folks weren't kicking butt in their own ways !

-Ish

Please be reasonable with your expectations for replies to things like this. This was posted yesterday. On a Friday. The day before a weekend. It's also like 1,100 words long with a bunch of links. That's not even to mention that the author has written a bunch of stuff very much like this on these forums recently, to which many of us have responded.

Kudos to Ish for replying. Several of us have been trying to make "customer service" and communication a priority, but please remind yourself that none of us are getting paid to be on the clock, and a lot of us have stuff to do.

I've written a few thousand words this month, myself, and then clarified them a couple of times to push back against mischaracterization. But certain people are still taking what I've said completely out of context, and that's frustrating.

I'm happy to have a dialog with anyone, but it has to be in good faith. The vast majority of the people here are capable of that kind of dialog. A few aren't.

So here's the best answer you'll get out of me today:

1) Orctober went okay. Not too many people rolled orcs, despite some plans that I had for the orcs who never showed up. We had a big, running quest with a major, pre-planned and scheduled development every week -- including one that was orc-centric.

2) I'm sorry you feel this way. I've never tried to do anything to make you feel this way.

3) I'm sorry you feel this way. I've never tried to do anything to make you feel this way.

4) I'm sorry your heroimm application was apparently rejected. I have no idea who you are so I can't offer any insight. Sorry. I'm also sorry we don't have enough coders right now.

5) I'm sorry I don't have time to read this right now.

If anyone wants to have a private and earnest dialog with me, feel free to email immrahsael@gmail.com. Be warned: Replies may take 2-3 business days.

I defenitely should have kept this to "Totally agree" and skipped the "Sad to see only Ish (again!) took the time to respond..." for a simple NT.

But I had so many bad experiences communicating with some old Immortals that I still sometimes just lash out.

Yes I know I should grow up. Eventually I hope to be able to forgive/forget total lack of courtesy... I'm just not there yet. So for now I just want to apologies for unecessary lash out response.

>>From Wikipedia articale on Runescape:
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneScape
>>RuneScape, sometimes referred to as RuneScape 3, is a fantasy MMORPG developed and published by
Jagex, first released in January 2001."

>>So a game released 5 years after CF. Clearly retro and from the same general genre, if not
specifically a MUD.

>>From Wikipedia article on "Old School Runescape":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_School_RuneScape


I like the idea of this. I'm one of the guys who also felt like the game might have really benefited from the technological progress felt by other games that overtook the MUD landscape like Everquest, WoW and any number of mobile games with MMORPG themes today.

CF hasn't really evolved much since the mid-90's. It has expanded or focused on its strengths such as world-building, but if somebody had taken control and decided to try to expand into a more graphical type of game we would likely be in a very different place now. The problem is, CF doesn't belong to the imps. It is a million different parts created by a thousand different authors. It is a collective work of art, and even the everyday players play a part in its evolution and the story it tells.

So if the game becomes commercially successful on another platform, who owns the rights? Who is due a cut of the profits? It would be nearly impossible to track down every contributor to pay out royalties or give credit. We don't know many people's true names, and everybody wanting credit where it is due would definitely be an issue.

I think CF will live a long time still, as long as we can find server space and bandwidth for it on the cheap. I don't think it is possible for it to ever become more than it is though, since we would have had to have planned for future possibilities and jumped through legal hoops around the world to account for all the copyrights and disclaimers we needed to make it fair to everybody who contributes.

That's one of the reasons CF doesn't charge, no cost, no payment, and that's never going to change.

It's a work of volunteer love!

-Ish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DikuMUD#EverQuest_controversy

I read that EverQuest allegedly was based on diku mud. Sort of made me happy.

Whats next, soccer allegedly based on mayan mythology?

NT

D&D is a social event. CF was at its best when it was social. IRC. Immortals posting on QHCF or Glimos before that. ICQ. Auctions at market square. A playerbase turning one log into a thread of 200 responses.

Somewhere along the way they decided to make CF more professional. Valguarnera. In some ways, having a defined process for various things was really good. It helped cut down on some bad actors like Andaren/Sebeok and their cheating. Code review. Logging. Formalities. But it also began to distance, and then put a wedge, between players and IMMs. Official forums. No more QHCF posts.

Great, a divide. One that hasn't ever been readily acknowledged to even try to be bridged.

Then certain IMPS, for whatever reason valid or not, held the strings of power. Less communication. More black boxes. Less visibility. People feel unheard, underappreciated, unknown.

Powergamers grew in influence. Less risk, less fun, more WINNING. PAY 2 PLAY where the currency is l33t info and TIME. Ain't nobody got time for that. It's a game. Or a shell of a game. Used to be a hell of a game.

Hey IMMs, why don't y'all come back?

CF isn't a professional game and any attempt at professional services has failed.

Make CF great again. Come to the table, join the party.

CF CON. Wear clothes. I mean, I'm not attending. But hang out in discord. QHCF. Real-time fun.

Give me a reason to not log in, walk away, and void out because there's no one in range.

Give me a reason to risk it all in a raid and die three times. IMMEXP is a lie.

We don't have to give our best but let's give more of some things. Or something.

Peace.


*Edit for hang out

And I'd really like to see a CF where social play is more encouraged, especially at lower levels. I don't want the ability to solo rank to go away, exactly, but I believe the benefits of solo ranking should be far outstripped by those gained by interacting with another PC.

A few ideas off the top of my head:

Low level quests should be group solvable, including the kill X things in a way that doesn't make it impossible to complete any/all you want.

Practicing skills vs. another PC should be clearly better than mashing on mobs for long periods of time. This may require putting something like Parynthian boxing gloves (that's a wayback reference) back into the game, but in a way that doesn't allow PC vs NPC to work.

Some way to offset skill learning rates in a group vs. solo. Maybe you can learn defenses by watching a groupmate defend? I don't know exactly. Or invokers can learn shields if a groupmate is getting hit and has shields on them. Things along that vein.

Something that allows more audience members (see video) to participate in CF without feeling totally overshadowed by the "players" or isolated from everyone because they want to enjoy
the game more passively (by being the "third") instead of being Rambo.

Just some random thoughts.

First, thank you for this. Even if I disagreed with every point you made (and I don't), it shows you love the game and are putting in some effort to understand the issues and speak up with some unpopular feedback.

To the people who will say to stop whining and you're beating a dead horse, I say simply do not read the post if it annoys you so much. People who care enough about CF to "bitch and whine" are not the enemy. As Tac rightly pointed out, the enemy of CF is apathy, not passion.

When it comes to the IMM/Player dynamics, a lot of the feedback he gave is his perception based on things that have happened. No one but the IMM knows his/her commitment, motives and feeling about the playerbase. More than a few players have similar perceptions. Do they match reality? If so, that's a problem. If they do not, the perception still exists and that is a problem.

I love me some Ishuli, but you cannot dismiss his feedback about an honest dialog after the way Halloween forms were cancelled and the resulting forum discussion. The initial IMM response was just the type of thing that caused the perception of disconnect/disdain in the first place, then the thread was locked. I give you credit for the damage control and starting another thread about it. I thought it was handled very well by Rahsael.

I'll stop, but I do have an honest question for the IMMs that is going to sound conspiratorial. I am just having trouble wrapping my head around something. First, I assume that you all know everyone of my characters if you have the ability to snoop from my prompt alone.

Shortly after the blow up on the forum over my Halloween form thread and it was locked, I was one of about 5 characters on late at night and there was a reboot coming. Then I see "A Gruesome Otyugh has restored you." Still sore from the forms being canceled and having played a 400+ hour Otyugh character from last Halloween, I felt like some one was rubbing it in. It probably wasn't personal. But, with so many disappointed players, the curt forum posts and the thread lock, why would anyone do a global restore as a Halloween form? That's how percaptions are made.

I didn’t dismiss his feedback. I thought the massive reply was a hint at that. Should I have aimed for a 5 page response instead to be clear? Heehee.

As to the Halloween thread, that’s why we aimed to remedy it and start up a conversation again. How often has that happened recently? Compared to prior? How much more dialogue is not only being welcomed, but responded to? It’s not a dismissal for me to ask why the changing effort on our part isn’t recognized, when one could simply say “I didn’t like this ONE thing!” but instead talks about a trend and continuing problem, when the problem in question has actually diminished substantially to prior comparison. That’s my only issue with that. It’s not saying we’re perfect, it’s saying “The problem trend you’re stating doesn’t actually exist”. Sort of like how someone might feel like crime is rising, when statistically it’s on the down. Rahs’s post was great .

As to your questions, I’m fine answering them.
The vast majority of imms do not know every one of your characters and do not have the ability to snoop from your prompt alone. Not all imms can snoop. The majority of imms can’t see who you have played, what you’re playing, etc. Me included. I have no idea who your characters are, in the least, and if you asked me how many characters I can guess the player of, I’d be right 1/1000 times. But I also don’t try to figure that out, it doesn’t interest me.

So as to the conspiracy idea, I didn’t do those echoes, but I can bet you that wasn’t the intent at all. I doubt the person knew you were on, what your past forms were, or meant to rub it in. BUT I don’t know who did the echo, or the intent behind it. Sometimes it’s as simple as an imm thinking they’re doing something funny/cute and it ends up not being received the way it was intended. Sometimes we just mess up. If you want a confessional, this one time early on I was trying to run a retrieval quest for someone. He happened to tell another character, who went and retrieved it on his own (which I kinda freaked out at since I didn’t plan for that at all, and now the object I was using for the other char was gone!). So I stole it from the player (bad move, me) which resulted in him being pretty justifiably pissed. I fully admit I messed up there, but it was a result of inexperience and bad planning. Stuff happens, we’re people to, but we try! So I hope you do too!



-Ish

You're right, it is improving.

The example where you stole the item sounds very familiar. I must have either read about it or been around when it happened.

I don't disagree with all that you're saying, but I have some input on some of it.

It's true, better dialogue could probably solve a lot of issues. It can be a lot better, but I do think Ishuli is correct that it's trending better over the long run. The Jormyr incident was a thing, but the blip is not evidence of a downward trend.

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,1120405,1120459#msg-1120459

You've shown self-awareness in saying that you can't truly know Scarab's motives in closing hell. But I don't think it serves you well to assume so much ill-will. It makes me very angry that in the Discord, Tac and others compared Scarab's actions to Gulrom's, not in childishness (I basically agree with that because I think his expectation was ultimately unrealistic in the first place), but in MALICE, this makes me feel silly about the way I went after Jormyr so caustically for calling people entitled, he's being proven right about some of the most vocal... IF you don't think Scarab is doing this to punish, and you still think he's malicious for closing Hell, you ARE self-entitled.

And while you are here saying you want better communication, it occurs to me that, in the passion of the moment, I don't think you've actually taken the time to read and consider Scarab's follow-up posts on announcements before writing what you did on QHCF.

What do you think that kind of thing does to the Staff's perception of the playerbase? Practice what you preach maybe.

Because if you read what he actually said, the guy had a clear vision for what he wants Hell to be, and it's ruined for him when walkthroughs of it are openly disseminated. He could leave it open, but it clearly bothers him deeply. Is your fun more important than his?

And why are you assuming it's a punishment in the first place? When has Scarab ever been malicious, or even rude? If you want better communication, and better perceptions, maybe read what the guy actually wrote and take it for what it says, instead of assuming he has some malicious ulterior motive? Quit substituting targets for whatever grievances you have.

I like Scarabaeus. Every interaction I've had with him or seen him have with others has been top notch. You're right that I did not know about his explanation on the officials when I responded in DIOs. Had I, my post would have been much different. So, I'll own that. I did not mean to imply that Scarabaeus was acting with Malice. I thought he was trying to stop this kind of behavior by closing Hell. So, I was actually assuming that he had a good (not malicious) motive for his action. I was just pointing out that if that was his goal, closing Hell would not be an effective way to achieve it and would likely make it worse.

Assuming Scarabaeus may read this post, I'd like to point something out.

From your post: "When I designed the area, my intent was to create something that challenged the players who enjoyed exploration and the excitement of the unexpected. Unfortunately, there have always been players who have wanted to negate that purpose and this one has accomplished that goal."

The posting of Hell log on Dio does not subvert your goal in the least. The players who enjoy "exploration and the excitement of the unexpected" would be the last people in the world to open that log and use it to descend. That post will not affect them at all.

I have always considered OOC sharing of area explore information against the rules. That means it's against the rules to pass a Hell log to someone. It also means that it's against the rules to accept and use a Hell log that someone has provided.

To say that the posting of that log will have a big enough impact on how players will experience Hell to warrant closing the coolest area in CF, you have to be assuming that a large portion of the player base will cheat by using it. That's a pretty rough assumption at a time when we're trying to mend the schism between the player base and Imms.

Speaking for myself, I will not cheat using Hell info posted on Dios. I suspect many others would be willing to make the same pledge.

I have to confess that the presupposition that staff members are generally acting out of malice or ill-will has become so tiresome for me that I don't see the point in engaging with that attitude any longer. So I do very much appreciate this type of feedback.

Regarding the type of player that would use a walkthrough: this is a fair point and I can take it into consideration. However, I am still left with the suspicion that what I wanted to accomplish with Inferno had a better fit with an earlier (now passed) context. That area set represents a lot of personal investment and I really don't want it to be an awkward round peg in a square hole simply because I haven't had time to bring it up to date with the changing times. I suppose there is a selfishness there that is related to a kind of perfectionism, but I'm going to have a hard time apologizing for that.

It's always been a aspiration of mine to lead or organize a non-imperial hell trip. I've been through there maybe 4-5 times over the years. Never to the final circle, though. Had some Hell gear. My favorites being the censer and bronze belt.

After years playing CF, my interests have waned from PKing and cabal wars. I'd turned my focus to ST and Hell. I go to the first circle a lot checking for coveted items things there. When I take relative newbs to get their sleek rod from the Dark Woods, I always show them the path that leads to Hell and enjoy their reactions.

With ST and Hell closed, I'm having trouble finding motivation. I think the question is: Even as imperfect a fit you may think Hell is in today's CF, is CF better or worse off without Hell? I think CF is much, much better with Hell.

But there you go. We are.

Not that I like them or anything but this sounds like just a random hilarious screw-up.

>First, thank you for this. Even if I disagreed with every
>point you made (and I don't), it shows you love the game and
>are putting in some effort to understand the issues and speak
>up with some unpopular feedback.


>To the people who will say to stop whining and you're beating
>a dead horse, I say simply do not read the post if it annoys
>you so much. People who care enough about CF to "bitch and
>whine" are not the enemy. As Tac rightly pointed out, the
>enemy of CF is apathy, not passion.

Partial agreement. If people want to simple bitch and whine, then yes, they are part of the problem. As so many places I've worked at have started to use - bring up an idea to solve the problem as well. I do think Tac's post falls into the second category more than the first, so all well and good.

>When it comes to the IMM/Player dynamics, a lot of the
>feedback he gave is his perception based on things that have
>happened. No one but the IMM knows his/her commitment, motives
>and feeling about the playerbase. More than a few players have
>similar perceptions. Do they match reality? If so, that's a
>problem. If they do not, the perception still exists and that
>is a problem.

Given the involvement to progress past Heroimm and number of people who flunk trying to do so should comment towards an Immortal's involvement in CF. I failed Heroimming twice. I was straight up told that if I didn't succeed this time, it's really not worth trying again. I can't comment for another Immortal's perception of the playerbase, but as for myself, I think the vast majority of the playerbase are great and I enjoy doing what I can to add the their enjoyment by providing interaction and engagement. However, I also spent a decade working in a bar and am currently working to become a HS teacher. I am also very aware of the lengths and surprising speed in which some people think the rules don't apply to them, or that everything should cater to them (You want to see how someone really is, watch 'em after a few drinks. It's also insane to see kids cheat on ungraded homework).

>I love me some Ishuli, but you cannot dismiss his feedback
>about an honest dialog after the way Halloween forms were
>cancelled and the resulting forum discussion. The initial IMM
>response was just the type of thing that caused the perception
>of disconnect/disdain in the first place, then the thread was
>locked. I give you credit for the damage control and starting
>another thread about it. I thought it was handled very well by
>Rahsael.

I can't help but assume some of this references me. In all honesty, I was aggravated. Actually, I just had Ishuli pull it back up for me. My first post was simply trying to provide answers, even if they were unpleasant. Both the responses to that post I felt were accusatory, but many of the Immortal decision are democratic in nature, accepted the result. Given I didn't have anything to do with making that specific decision, was against it, and felt as though I was being blamed for that decision, I didn't response particularly civilly. Combine that with working 60-80 hours a week unpaid with little sleep and a toddler, I haven't been great on patience the last three months. The thread was removed before I had a more rational moment to read it, and while I don't think I was the only one harming the conversation, I shouldn't be part of the problem at all, and I apologize for my abrasiveness.

>I'll stop, but I do have an honest question for the IMMs that
>is going to sound conspiratorial. I am just having trouble
>wrapping my head around something. First, I assume that you
>all know everyone of my characters if you have the ability to
>snoop from my prompt alone.

Hah. Most Immortals have no interest, and no desire to figure out who plays what. Generally, if it is known, it's because of RIDICULOUSLY obvious tells. I can barely remember who played what when I can search the graveyard for who claimed a character. You would likely have to write me a note every other week that I can constantly reference saying who your player is for me to know.

>Shortly after the blow up on the forum over my Halloween form
>thread and it was locked, I was one of about 5 characters on
>late at night and there was a reboot coming. Then I see "A
>Gruesome Otyugh has restored you." Still sore from the forms
>being canceled and having played a 400+ hour Otyugh character
>from last Halloween, I felt like some one was rubbing it in.
>It probably wasn't personal. But, with so many disappointed
>players, the curt forum posts and the thread lock, why would
>anyone do a global restore as a Halloween form? That's how
>percaptions are made.

I'd agree with Ishuli. Someone probably simply thought they'd be nice and throw out a global restore, and thought "What would be a fun thing to restore as. I know, it's Halloween. Let's use an otyugh. That's pretty themic for the season."

You just earned +20 leeway points! I have a 6 year old.

I logged somewhere between 200-300 hours over the last month. Get on my level .

1) Not so great. I was the one aiming to run orc stuff, pretty much single-handedly, and I got no orcs. I managed to interact with the 1 or 2 orcs a few times, but that was about it. As of now there is still only one orc over 35. Nobody really rolled up for the month, and you can’t have an Orctober without orcs. I don’t understand what the second half of your post has anything to do with Orctober?

2) Feel free to look and see the attempted communications as of late. So again, I don’t really know what you’re talking about. I don’t expect official forums to be as active as unofficial ones. My private game chats tend to be a lot more active than any game’s official forums, but that’s just my experience, since folks are talkative in chatroom format more-so than forums. We haven’t shut down conversations or deleted posts much lately at all. The trend is, if anything, towards the opposite. So again I don’t really get what you’re talking about (maybe it’s because you haven’t been paying attention I guess? But it sure makes it feel like any efforts I have towards that end are lost. Either way, I’ll keep going).

3) I don’t view it as a love it or leave it thing. But I’m also not willing to sacrifice the game to try and please everyone. I don’t expect to make everyone happy, so I just focus on playing the game and trying to make it fun .

4) Any player can have input on changes. I go out of my way to read every single post made. Anyone can also kick ass and apply to become part of staff. I’ve done it, and I’ve seen a number of others do it. If you’ve got a history of denies or something similar that makes it tough, then roll a series of serious characters that shows your behavior has changed. Dedication (my sphere!) is worth a lot. As per applications, we bother to look through each and every one pretty seriously (at least since I have been around). I know saying “Trust me!” isn’t something I expect you to buy, but I haven’t seen anyone not get a serious look when applying. Player ideas can be implemented. Not all player ideas are mechanical. Someone saying “There should be an event like X!” – and I can potentially run said event, and said event seems fun? I’ll do it. Not all suggestions are equal. Someone saying “CF should have guns!” has a different input value and potential success than someone saying “There should be a monthly X event!”. Not everything in CF revolves around changing code, and I learned that pretty quickly when I joined the staff. I think it’s a big loss if you can only focus on that. But code stuff CAN change. How likely? I can’t even tell you that, I imagine it’s about how appealing the idea is to the codey folks. But I can tell you that’s not my focus at all when it comes to the game. But hey! Recently we updated the website, helpfiles, and some other fun jazzy stuff. So there is always progress .

5) I’m not really sure what the Runescape stuff is about, but I’m probably just a dummy who is missing the point or something. But I’m always game to get more players. One of the big incentives is people playing. So if you’re willing to make that change with me, log in and let’s have some fun!



As to Hell, I don’t personally blame the playerbase at large or anything like that. The area was closed as per the reasons Scarab outlined in his post. That is why, no other reason. He was up front about him, so give him credit for that.

I’m happy when people enjoy the npcs I spent time on, and I’m happy when they don’t. I enjoy interacting with players and, ideally, playing the game together. It’s good stuff.

(Edited to cut some of my Aquinas #### since I ended up rambling)
As to Aquinas, he never said anything like that which I’m aware of. I’m familiar that in Summa he talks about the nature of ideas in relation to divine wisdom, in his commentary on Aristotle’s ‘On Memory’ he talks about the nature of relation between images and depictions, and in the third question of ‘Ideas’ in Veritate that he definitely talks about the relationship between an artist and the product (“Now, what imitates a form by chance is not said to be formed according to that form, because according to seems to imply direction to an end”). The whole purpose being to argue about the three meanings of form (that from which a thing gets its form, that by which a thing is informed, that according to which a thing is informed).

If Aquinas did say that somewhere though, please link!


All in all, I’m not really sure where you’re coming from given the current state of things. Orctober didn’t go great, dialogue has been ongoing, people can stay or leave as they want (and enjoy the aspects of the game that they do enjoy), everyone can have input, and if you want to improve the game – then play the game. At least I think that’s a decent short summary of the insane amount of crap I wrote above?

Thanks for the post!

-Ish

>I logged somewhere between 200-300 hours over the last month.
>Get on my level .

Imm hours are considerably different from mortal hours. The amount
of attention required just to stay alive as a mortal requires that
time to be much more dedicated. Maybe all 200-300 hours were just
as active as if you were playing a mortal, in which case... holy
####, but I suspect if you are honest, they weren't.

>1) Not so great. I was the one aiming to run orc stuff, pretty
>much single-handedly, and I got no orcs. I managed to interact
>with the 1 or 2 orcs a few times, but that was about it. As of
>now there is still only one orc over 35. Nobody really rolled
>up for the month, and you can’t have an Orctober without
>orcs. I don’t understand what the second half of your post
>has anything to do with Orctober?

I'm closing out my Orctober and getting things off my chest.

>2) Feel free to look and see the attempted communications as
>of late. So again, I don’t really know what you’re talking
>about. I don’t expect official forums to be as active as
>unofficial ones. My private game chats tend to be a lot more
>active than any game’s official forums, but that’s just my
>experience, since folks are talkative in chatroom format
>more-so than forums. We haven’t shut down conversations or
>deleted posts much lately at all. The trend is, if anything,
>towards the opposite. So again I don’t really get what
>you’re talking about (maybe it’s because you haven’t
>been paying attention I guess? But it sure makes it feel like
>any efforts I have towards that end are lost. Either way,
>I’ll keep going).

You are clearly trying. Keep up the good work, honestly. I believe
the staff would be well served by participating in game chats with
players. The community is small enough to support it.

>3) I don’t view it as a love it or leave it thing. But I’m
>also not willing to sacrifice the game to try and please
>everyone. I don’t expect to make everyone happy, so I just
>focus on playing the game and trying to make it fun .

I'm not expecting a sacrifice, but something like Halloween forms
was little/no sacrifice, but instead a different decision was made.

>4) Any player can have input on changes. I go out of my way
>to read every single post made. Anyone can also kick ass and
>apply to become part of staff. I’ve done it, and I’ve seen
>a number of others do it. If you’ve got a history of denies
>or something similar that makes it tough, then roll a series
>of serious characters that shows your behavior has changed.
>Dedication (my sphere!) is worth a lot. As per applications,
>we bother to look through each and every one pretty seriously
> at least since I have been around). I know saying “Trust
>me!” isn’t something I expect you to buy, but I haven’t
>seen anyone not get a serious look when applying. Player ideas
>can be implemented. Not all player ideas are mechanical.
>Someone saying “There should be an event like X!” – and
>I can potentially run said event, and said event seems fun?
>I’ll do it. Not all suggestions are equal. Someone saying
>“CF should have guns!” has a different input value and
>potential success than someone saying “There should be a
>monthly X event!”. Not everything in CF revolves around
>changing code, and I learned that pretty quickly when I joined
>the staff. I think it’s a big loss if you can only focus on
>that. But code stuff CAN change. How likely? I can’t even
>tell you that, I imagine it’s about how appealing the idea
>is to the codey folks. But I can tell you that’s not my
>focus at all when it comes to the game. But hey! Recently we
>updated the website, helpfiles, and some other fun jazzy
>stuff. So there is always progress .

I'm not sure this addresses my issue, but I'm content to have
stated it. I doubt I would try and Imm again in the future,
and I doubt I'd be any more welcome then than before, probably
less so.

>5) I’m not really sure what the Runescape stuff is about,
>but I’m probably just a dummy who is missing the point or
>something. But I’m always game to get more players. One of
>the big incentives is people playing. So if you’re willing
>to make that change with me, log in and let’s have some
>fun!

It's about a different game's different approach and success.
I get tired of the MUD genre is dying so of course numbers are
down argument. I found this fascinating because A) it's a
game similar enough to CF to be worth comparing, on a lot of
scales, and B) They have a ton of people, and C) They have more
people playing an old version than their "current: one.

>As to Hell, I don’t personally blame the playerbase at large
>or anything like that. The area was closed as per the reasons
>Scarab outlined in his post. That is why, no other reason. He
>was up front about him, so give him credit for that.
>
>I’m happy when people enjoy the npcs I spent time on, and
>I’m happy when they don’t. I enjoy interacting with
>players and, ideally, playing the game together. It’s good
>stuff.
>
> Edited to cut some of my Aquinas #### since I ended up
>rambling)
>As to Aquinas, he never said anything like that which I’m
>aware of. I’m familiar that in Summa he talks about the
>nature of ideas in relation to divine wisdom, in his
>commentary on Aristotle’s ‘On Memory’ he talks about the
>nature of relation between images and depictions, and in the
>third question of ‘Ideas’ in Veritate that he definitely
>talks about the relationship between an artist and the product
> “Now, what imitates a form by chance is not said to be
>formed according to that form, because according to seems to
>imply direction to an end”). The whole purpose being to
>argue about the three meanings of form (that from which a
>thing gets its form, that by which a thing is informed, that
>according to which a thing is informed).
>
>If Aquinas did say that somewhere though, please link!

I have no idea if Aquinas stated it. Matt Colville stated it,
and I like the quote. It makes very little difference to me
whether someone else also said it... Or whether he is misquoting
or quoting someone else.

>All in all, I’m not really sure where you’re coming from
>given the current state of things. Orctober didn’t go great,
>dialogue has been ongoing, people can stay or leave as they
>want (and enjoy the aspects of the game that they do enjoy),
>everyone can have input, and if you want to improve the game
>– then play the game. At least I think that’s a decent
>short summary of the insane amount of crap I wrote above?
>
>Thanks for the post!
>
>-Ish

I'm coming from a place of disappointment, that I didn't play
CF in Orctober, which I planned to do. I'm coming from a place
where stating my disappointment and frustrations will allow me
to get to a better state of being me.

Depends on the time. As an imm the activity level can quickly go from a 1 out of 10 to a 10/10 in terms of demands, typically when dealing with a lot of things simultaneously that would NEVER happen to me on a mortal. So I would definitely have a hard time comparing them, but it was more aimed to be a cute line tempting you to play more !

As to other game/runescape approaches, I’m impressed they manage to kick so much butt. I don’t know how to make CF pull in as many people. But I can at least say my general opinion, which is that I’m not willing to sacrifice the game to make it popular (not saying that’s what you’re suggesting, but just stating my general approach/outlook).

If you haven’t, you should read Aquinas. A lot of people stay away from Summa Theologica because of its size, but you can hit certain topics/questions in a bite-sized approach that makes it charming in more ways than one, particularly since he aims to cite and present things in a question/answer/response format (you’ll get bored of seeing how often Augustine is cited though, I promise). I’m picky about what philosophers think/say, I mean, Ergush and I even had a 30 minute discussion about the potential intents behind certain statements in one of Plato’s dialogues.

Well, I’m glad you were able to vent and hope you feel better for it. I appreciate the fun info you gave, and that you care enough to share ideas/criticism. All I can say beyond that is – I hope you play. There’s a lot more to the game than halloweenie forms, and the more the merrier .


-Ish

If the game isn't what you enjoy anymore that's fine, stuff happens, people change. Plenty of people, myself included still really enjoy CF and would rather it not change drastically. Contrary to belief in some circles, the staff isn't what you say it is and ultimately enjoys the playerbase for the most part. Cool things are being worked on that will add to CF and I think it will improve continually forward.

I see these posts and I feel genuinely bad because it seems clear that many people miss being able to do what they used to do in CF and for whatever reason (less time, less patience etc.) they cannot do it anymore. So they scream for change. Some change can of course be very good but I don't think changing the fabric of what CF is is the answer.

Lastly, the staff don't 'blame' the players, there isn't this huge disconnect as has been ranted on before. As the new kid I was kinda shocked at how down to earth and fair the imms were. Some of them go to extraordinary lengths to be fair. Are any of us perfect? No, we all make mistakes but this is a good staff who cares about players by and large.

less edges

FWIW I think edges are in a fairly good place now. Before OBS/EXPL were reinstated it was too little without a doubt, but now we've hit that goldilocks zone I think. Maybe a touch more could be available but all in all its not that bad. If you write a role, explore some, rp, you shouldn't have problems.

Personally I totally agree with this statement.

Writing roles for some mortals - is not good.
Sponsoring, covering and boosting the powers of some mortals which literally cuts the fun of all other people - is not good as well.

Everybody supposed to have equal conditions and opportunities in game. Please stick to this way instead. And edges are in a fairly good place now.

NT

I sucked at PK for a long time, I practiced and got better. So can people with role writing. I've seen ESL people make immense strides in their role chapters as characters have progressed and I don't think rewarding role writing is in anyway a detriment to people who may not be the best writers.

You can always write point-form roles, several smaller entries etc. You will get to 1400 in a reasonable time frame. This in no way favors strong writers only and honestly, many times a lengthy, rambling role can become dull and a burden.

In fact I am certain some recent RC winners were ESL people who worked at it and constructed a good view of their characters over time. I 100% agree with you that Equality of Opportunity is extremely important.

Honestly, I intentionally avoided Daphedee's roles like the plague. Just too much going on and I wasn't invested enough to spend that much time.

I'm quite happy finding that player that just gives a basic run-down.

Fire giant from Kiadana-Rah. Not a great thinker, so when he took a vacation to Arkham and got told join the Empire, he did. Likes that they tell him what to do, and he gets to smash things. Sphere love because deep down he just wants his parents to love him and wants to impress his dad by being the best Imperial Blade ever.

Follows Jormyr because....well, why wouldn't you?


Jormyr has added 20,000 role xp and tattoo'd you!

I might have exaggerated at the end, but if you can give me a paragraph that covers enough of the character as to why he's align/ethos he is (if not default by the race), sphere, cabal choice, and any quirks I should look for....that's the point of roles. It gives Immortals a way to interact with a character.

Maybe you shouldn't write a book when you can't even read.

oops was meant as a reply to the OP

Dio's is dead. Cut out Frosty/Kstat/Rhyaldrin and the occasional log
dump and you're left with maybe three posts per day.

Sent from my Iphone