Hi Twist,

I would like to hear your feedback about throw and ground control. In the logs I have seen (and as you have posted) it was basically your go to. My interactions with you in the game, both on your side, and directly against you, it was also your go to, from low to mid level all the way to hero.

I would like to re-touch this discussion regarding Throw and how specifically it maledicts with Ground Control with a maledict that automatic which is stronger than most command driven maledicts (-9 dex,-9 str stackable). Furthermore makes it easier to throw an individual, and get a ground control, on further attempts, due to the maledicts, all while lagging and causing substantial damage. Also add in the ability to perma-lag.

I am still having trouble understanding why this set of skills exist, especially on assassins already awesome skill set. As no other class has anything close to what this skill set does.

Your honest thoughts are appreciated.

Especially to a guy who can see who you are?

Thanks, Twist for the great response anyhow.

Mostly to the masses but also that I have faith that Twist isn't going to around and look up the users. I appreciate the feedback from him and that some discussion is happening regarding throw.

The model of any skill that lags is that it also doesn't assist in changing the fight (maledicts). It is the risk/reward of using lagging techniques versus maledicting skills. Throw plus Ground Control completely changes that premise. I would be more likely to say throw and ground control is fine if it was one of the prime skills of the class, but its not. Plus let us not even talk about throw plus trance. I personally feel, but this is for another discussion, trance needs to be thrown away completely. Or to force assassins to choose assassin path or trance path, but not both. Anyway.

As an example, with one or two throws plus ground controls, you have constructively boneshattered your opponent (-9 str/-9 dex). 3 or more throws you are almost guaranteed this. Boneshatter requires an active action, yet for some reason you get it for free passively while holding your enemy in place.

I do not know of any lagging technique that also substantially maledicts the opponent automatically. From my experience, size does not matter in throw, only that they are within 1 size. I have experienced this first hand with Enhal and permalagging despite being 1 size bigger. And again, those maledicts do affect throw. As it increases the likelihood of throw itself with dex comparison. It also makes tanking for your target worse, changing the way the fight goes. Plus makes it so evade is less likely also due to the maledict.

Furthermore, assassins are not hurting for maledictions and are arguably the best in the game at it. -9/-9 kot with wrist break. -11 -11 kan with slow effect. caltrops which is -5 dex I believe for -1 hours (while fighting), nerve (-2 to -3 stats), axe kick which is -7 -7. Ground control -9 str and -9 dex per one. Why with so much do you throw on top of that, no pun intended, an additional free set of maledicts.

The argument that throw is not good in situations where throw is unable to be done doesn't hold water. Since those same situations, other lagging techniques are also similarly limited. And on top of that those skills don't do maledicts. In those situations regardless, kicks are easily done.

I'm trying to analyze Throw and Ground Control in comparison to other skills on the merits of where it stands. While I understand the age of the skill is quite substantial, that doesn't change this. There are many skills and edges that have been in the game for a decade that are suddenly changed due to a player really figuring it out.

The ground control from owaza does -str. Always maybe, but I've searched my logs extensively and am about 99% sure that GC via throw doesn't drop str. I've also never seen someone drop weapon due to GC on throw.

>Hi Twist,
>
>I would like to hear your feedback about throw and ground
>control. In the logs I have seen (and as you have posted) it
>was basically your go to. My interactions with you in the
>game, both on your side, and directly against you, it was also
>your go to, from low to mid level all the way to hero.

Throw was a go-to against people who knew to run as soon as I landed a kotegaeshi or kansetsuwaza. Basically people who I could out-maledict.

Throw was a spectactular way to die against a lot of other classes (which you'll see in some of my other logs when I have the time to post them).

>I would like to re-touch this discussion regarding Throw and
>how specifically it maledicts with Ground Control with a
>maledict that automatic which is stronger than most command
>driven maledicts (-9 dex,-9 str stackable). Furthermore makes
>it easier to throw an individual, and get a ground control, on
>further attempts, due to the maledicts, all while lagging and
>causing substantial damage. Also add in the ability to
>perma-lag.

Throw/GC perma-lagging was pretty rare for me. A few times I got lucky with it. But buying a merc that could possibly cheapshot on a throw also helped.

I'm not sure you're correct on the maledicts helping make it easier to throw someone next time. I'm pretty sure throw's success is skill % (and possibly size) based. I didn't have any easier time throwing maledicted foes vs. non-maledicted as far as I could tell. I could be wrong on this, though.

>I am still having trouble understanding why this set of skills
>exist, especially on assassins already awesome skill set. As
>no other class has anything close to what this skill set
>does.

Throw has been a part of the assassin class since way back when it was the Ninja class. Ground control since it was switched to assassin. For a long time, throw was the ugly stepchild of the assassin skillset - you might get mocked on the forums if you had practiced it, because why wouldn't you just use kicks?

At that time I always wondered why - throw does trip-lag with solid damage. Not as solid as assassin kicks, but still. Add in the chance at getting a ground control and it seemed well worth it to me. But the belief seemed to be that throw (and nerve, but that's another post) were wastes of practices.

Nothing has really changed with the base throw/ground control skills since then.

Except edges.

I did feel while playing that the Master of Nage Waza edge was too powerful. A few weeks ago I finally had a chance to sit down and discuss it with Umiron. Once he looked at how that edge had been coded (everything that it did)...in short the edge did too much. It had already been toned down before (the GC affects only land once for each type, now) but I felt it still needed toning down, as I was playing it. We may tone it down even further - even with what was taken away, I feel like it will still be the most obvious choice for the "Master of" edges.

In addition, the "ground fighter" edge makes ground control better. We may need to look at that edge too, though I don't feel that it is as extreme as the MoNW edge was.

There are many ways to avoid being thrown. A lot of assassin pkwin logs are going to make throw look very sexy - because it totally is against the right matchups. Watch an assassin try to go toe-to-toe with a paladin, a shaman, STSF warrior who can last more than 4 rounds, a shapeshifter...all of a sudden throw doesn't look so awesome.

Look closely in your logs I'm sure it happened to you as much as it does to me and Boris.

when you DO LISTEN beront.

Now, please, make more steps and

1) Fix the bat skill.

2) Fix the lag bug.

I almost beated my face to the bloody mess with the facepalms in Korsgaard thread about how its not exists.

No lag pincer? No lag trip? On non thristing, no legacy chars?

And since I'm in a good mood, I'll give you a hint, review your code once again, maybe you broke something with your new great anti-gank code?

Nt

I'd second this too.

At least, as a high powered ap, I usually was writing or convulsing through protections by the time I could get away from a batting Paladin. Probably a small sample size but it was lagging me like nothing else I can think of.

Also worth noting for the sake of balance that I get to writhing or convulsing fast against a staff wielder.

I always thought it odd that they made a spammable combat skill with quasi-zero self-lag (though of course spamming may get you killed, if the other guy starts lagging you while outdamaging you). So I think bat would make much more sense as a 1 rnd skill similar to jab/serpent strike, but doing somewhat less damage than them though with a chance of malediction or 1 rnd lag to the opponent.

I, too, seem to remember the bat skill as a pretty ridiculous when fighting paladins as an evil shaman.