Spear and staff become one skill? If you know how to use one, you know how to use the other.

(Consider wielding a rapier is an entirely different ballgame from wielding two-handed sword, probably more different IRL than spears and staves.)

No it's nowhere near one skill, thank you.

Since some classes know appear and not staff, and vice versa.

If an ap knew staff as well as appear, that's a few potential ap killer combos gone.

When your shifter hits level 35 and only has their final forms left to gain...make them visible. Then you can delete if they are bad or continue if they are good. This saves you the time it takes to rank up to 42-49 and then hero if you can get enough edge points to spin or roll.

After all, if you'll delete at 35 over your forms, you'll delete at 42-49 over them. It just saves you about 50 hours of time because you don't know yet. And, since you have to get to 35 to see them, you're likely to take a decent (not crappy) form rather than delete.

Plenty of people delete over bad forms. It's a thing. Some may never do that. This would not affect them at all.

Use a mercenary. Rank near a healer on things that have equipment you can heal with. Aim for 300-500 xp per kill. Joining groups for 1300-2000xp per kill just gets you killed when they inevitably #### up and you spammed bite while watching netflix because you don't care about your character since it's a throw away shifter but at some point i switched from trying to make a point to trying to write as long as a sentence i could without a sentence break of any kind so im sorry about poking fun at you not caring about yourshifter since im sure you actually care it was just a way to write more sentence and don't forget to enjoy the game bye.

But an edge could be added for that if Imms find it reasonable
Prerequirements could be something like 35lvl, 15k observation exp and decent Int. Cost let it be, say, 2 EP. Would it do that much for you?

Reminds me of countless software designs that I've seen mangled beyond recognition in the implementation phase.

Putting requirements like 15K obs and EP cost defeats the purpose of a change that is meant to reduce wasted time spent on a character that you are going to delete.

Just allows people to move on to a character they want to play and invest time in. There's no reason to keep them in the dark about forms that are already decided unless you're just a masochist.

Reminds me of a character I played that spent a couple hundred hours trying to contact an IMM with prayers, shrine visits, a note and never got a response. After I deleted, I see in the PBF IMM comments that the IMM had decided I wasn't a good fit as a follower very early on and just never felt the need to let me in on the secret. There is just no reason to not do something like this and many reasons to do it. Not just for the player, but other players and the game.

I've been ranking with shifters and they hit ~L44 and get their final form. Remove all, drop all, delete;delete. Why would you want them to rank to 44 when you could have let them know at 35 or sooner? This is not an IC concept. It's a completely OOC burden for no reason. Rant off.

As a serial shifter player these days, I *really* like this idea.

That said, I suspect the imm response would be that it isn't too difficult to get enough EPs to spin/roll by the time you get a tier 1 form, and in so doing encourages low level RP (I'll let y'all know if I ever get immexp after 2am EST) and effort to be put into a character, rather than encouraging deleting at 35 or 44.

I'd rather give every shifter a free spin OR roll. I have no issue blowing EPs on those, but I also know that you're losing the opportunity to take one of the few other decent shifter edges right out of the gate. (I also tend to think it punishes newbies by not letting them take a form for a try-out before deciding if they want to keep it, but that's a whole other issue.)

And while we're on the subject of shifters, how about the getting rid of the variable levels for gaining forms? An extra two levels in the forties before getting a tier 1 is just agonizing.

The Guildmaster of Shapeshifters stops you on your way out of the guild.
The Guildmaster of Shapeshifters tells you 'You haven't chosen a major SHAPEFOCUS yet. You might want to give that some thought.'

civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 1800tnl (50.00%) 3 PM> n
The Guildmaster of Shapeshifters stops you on your way out of the guild.
The Guildmaster of Shapeshifters tells you 'You haven't chosen a minor SHAPEFOCUS yet. You could postpone that, but you could take care of that now.'

civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 1800tnl (50.00%) 3 PM> shapefocus major water
You have chosen your major focus.

civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 1800tnl (50.00%) 3 PM> shapefocus minor defense
You have chosen your minor focus.

civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 1800tnl (50.00%) 3 PM> n
The Guildmaster of Shapeshifters stops you on your way out of the guild.
The Guildmaster of Shapeshifters tells you 'You haven't chosen a major top tier form yet. You could postpone that, but you could take care of that now.'

civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 1800tnl (50.00%) 3 PM> shapefocus major form electric eel
You have chosen your major top tier form.

civilized <100%hp 100%m 100%mv 1800tnl (50.00%) 3 PM> n
The Chamber of Civilizations


All around, a massive mural depicts the various societies of Thera.

civilized <100%hp 100%m 98%mv 1800tnl (50.00%) 3 PM>

Only the fact it is rare stops its imbalance being a problem.

I can imagine issues with other combos of people could effectively pick them.

There are some combos I'd like to try, but certainly nothing game breaking. I've never been an eel, just used that as an example. Some forms could be boosted, others maybe nerfed. But, if they were really balanced, then it wouldn't matter what form you got. But, I'm not sure they are. Some can seem pretty useless.

For instance jag and dire wolf seem underpowered relative to other offense forms but that tiny bit of extra dodge they have makes a big difference against people with charmies. Dillo is mostly useless solo but in a group fight it’s the ####, so on and so forth.

What works best is not just a function of what a form/class/cabal/legacy does but also the pairing of those strengths against the types of builds other people play at the time. Hell I had a vulture/wolverine and thought I hit the jackpot and suddenly my range was consistently 2 wights a mummy and a lich... that did not turn out so great.

Because many shifters delete over forms.

I mean absent actually picking your forms like every other class in the game has the ability to choose their path (except IMMs pick shaman stuff, but even then, role can influence it and the IMM you pick narrows it down.

The argument against this I've heard is that everyone would choose the same form(s). At least there's be a lot of eagles, electric eels, etc. But, this seems like an admission that the forms are not balanced. And that argument would apply equally to legacies and weapon specs, yet warriors get to choose/customize.

The fact is that, yes, many shifter's delete over forms because they think that certain forms will make their character more enjoyable. Which means they will play more and invest in the char. What's the downside to that?

Shifters are a gamble. They're meant to be. Other than that - sure no downsides for shifters

I wouldn't say that the "idea for the class" is the randomness of forms. Yes, it was designed and coded that way, but if it was changed, they would still be shapeshifters. The randomness is a way to assign forms. That's all. It does not define the class and if there's a better way that would benefit the game (and there is) it should be changed. Having said that, I realize that there is 0% chance it will happen.

Being random is like 50% of what defines shapeshifters. I'm pretty sure Umiron has stated exactly that a number of times.

Everything that has been changed in CF since the code was originally written makes it different than it was originally intended.

If we're just debating changes in the game based on what was important to the person who originally designed something (like randomness being defining to the shapeshifter class concept), then I'll just stop debating or suggesting changes. Because, that is not only a ridiculous basis on which to make changes, it's impossible to know without speaking to the person who designed shapeshifters.

I suggest changes based on what I think would make CF more enjoyable for people who play CF, thus making them play more and not quit. And I firmly believe that it is the only basis for which changes should be made.

It might be enjoyable for the shapeshifter but if I fight shapeshifters and suddenly I'm facing only best forms, that'd kinda suck.

Fighting roving permas of eaglelions would blow.

That the forms are not balanced. When I play a shifter I hate trying to fight STSF whip specs, but they don't make legacies random.

Imagine if legacies WERE random. Would you still like to play warriors knowing that you'll end up deleting 5 characters for every one you actually get invested in? That's what shifters are like.

Form balance is the WHOLE issue here. If they were balanced, there would not be a need to delete when you got crappy ones. If they were balanced, and you could choose your forms, everyone would NOT pick the same form.

The fact that roving bands of eagles/lions would likely happen just demonstrates that other forms and combos suck in comparison.

If I'm an offense/air shifter, would I delete an eagle/lion? No. A giant wasp/ram? What do you think?

Nt

>Imagine if legacies WERE random. Would you still like to play warriors knowing that you'll end up deleting 5 characters for every one you actually get invested in?

Warriors are a pretty weak class compared to shapeshifters, so it's the latter that gets randomness as a dampening factor.

But more or less I'm already doing that. I try a build, see it doesn't work, I try another build, etc, until I find one that works. At that point, yes, I can (in theory) roll the same build over and over, except I don't actually do that.

Presumably, if shifters were ever allowed to pick their forms, form strength would be adjusted such that there's no single form everyone prefers.

There would probably be some forms you'd see more often than others, though, just as we see some warrior specializations more often than others, some thief specializations more often than others, etc.

If we think that a form is performing considerably above/below its tier, what would be the best place to provide that kind of feedback?

And make sure to actually provide useful info, not just say stuff like "I think ram sucks cause its not lion."

Something I would love to see happen but don't see it as terribly viable is instead of picking the exact form that you do get for your final form, you could instead select a single form that you do not want.

If literally every single person who played Offense choose the jaguar as a form they refuse to take, it would be easier to select a single form at a time to try and adjust as needed.

One way to improve feedback would be to make 'spin the wheel' and 'roll the bones' cost 0 or 1 EP. Then everyone could reject a form they don't like without having to decide whether it's worth trying to hero without their final major form and accumulating the rest of the EP needed to take another swing at a form.

Then you'd have the stats on every shifter who rejected a form (not just the one's who had the EPs currently needed) and you could look at how many shifters delete soon after using their major (after they switched). Because they might get another form they hate.

Essentially, lowering the cost of these edges would be similar to allowing people to pick a form they don't want but without any coding beyond changing a constant.

Your idea involves "wasting time" of leveling all the way to a final form. The actual cost of the edge doesn't change the end result in that someone deletes if they get a form they don't want to play.

Reducing the cost of the edge will just further promote the idea of a throwaway shifter because you will literally need to do nothing beyond power level. At least if we went down the road of exemption yourself from a single form you could go in treating the character as a serious one from the gate.

Do you know what I do when I get forms I like? I play that char to 450+ hours. When I don't? I roll another char.

Reducing the cost of the edge just gives the player a chance to get a form they want without having to rank from L42-44 (when they get their final major form) to L51 without using their major final form (meaning they are not a big help to the group) in order to get the edge points to spin the wheel.

Also, you assume that I (or someone else) would be happy with any form that is not their last pick, which is not true.

You can call a char a throwaway char if you'd like. But, the fact is that, like I said, I get forms I want that fit my play style, I'll play that char to old age and have every time. If not, I'll delete. So, if you don't like 'throwaway' chars, then maybe let us know at L35 (or earlier) what our final forms will be so we can move on to the char we're going to be invested in.

And BTW, it has little to do with PK. I like to explore and help people. I haven't played an offensive form since I can remember. My favorite forms are probably not what they would be for someone else with different goals.

If you want to roll a melee character that you can customize, that character is a warrior.

It's not a shifter. Shifters are a dice roll. At their best, they're better then most warriors even naked. At their worst, they suck.

Classes are supposed to be differentiated, and this is the shifter niche. They are a dice rolling melee class with ABS instead of superior parry and the choice to choose special abilities. (Legacies.)

If you're asking for shifters to choose their forms you're basically asking for warrriots to choose their legacies and then have ABS.

Plenty of people have taken subpar shifter rolls and done something with them. The fact that you're choosing not to is not a fault in the system. You're advocating to reroll until you get a shifter with great forms (a form of CF easy mode) and complaining that you can't have easy mode on command.

It's ridiculous. The core design of shifters is a dice roll. You win, you lose, or you come out even. Neutering the best forms and just letting people pick is pathetic, because the warrior class already exists. CF is better with different options in how you play and hope to win.

Lots of people delete when they get, in their opinion, bad forms. What I'd proposed initially wasn't to choose your forms, it was just to let people see their final forms at level 35 so they can then decide if they want to re-roll, try to get enough EPs to switch, or keep them as is.

Saying how things "are" could be used to shut down any discussion on any proposal ever made. I have yet to hear a valid reason why knowing your forms at 35 would be a problem. It's still random. It still tosses a good chunk of time away of you decide to re-roll.

As far as easy mode goes, that depends on what you do with your char more than the char itself in most cases. I don't fight people who don't know what they are doing and who aren't already giving others grief for the most part. Acra only fought people trying to kill Acra which is why all her PKs were hero ragers if I'm not mistaken. If I'd wanted easy mide, I might have joined a cabal or attacked people who could not give a hell of a fight.

...if you don't want to put in the effort of getting those 44-51 ranks, you have the option of putting some effort at midranks and exploring just enough to get some edgepoints.

Since the last edge change, you still don't get many edges overall, but the ones you do get are gettable throughout the level grind.

I really like your exemption idea. I think there are several forms that people just generally do not enjoy because of some preconceived stigma about them or real life experience. Having been a person who has played many, I think you'd have to compensate your data much less using this method because more people would pick the one they really dislike rather than one that doesn't fit their build, or RP, etc. On the other hand, I can't count the number of times that I spun/rolled on one form just to get one of the others that I really don't like though (So maybe a double exemption?). Anyway, as much as I'd like to go into that, I don't want to hijack the thread.

As a separate suggestion, I think maybe doing a poll for each set of top tier forms for popularity may also give you a similar result.

One thing I never understood about the two shifter edges is why you have to have never used the form you want to change. If I ever find the time to actually play a shifter, I would want to play around with the form first to see how it is and if I could make it fit my style. And if not, then spin/roll. Even if I liked it, to have an option to check out another form later on might be a nice way to breathe new life into an old character.

The way it's implemented makes it impossible to make an informed decision unless you've actually had that form with a previous character. Unless "informed decision" means someone else's opinion on the forum. But, how many shifters do you think you'd have to play before you got to play every form in a single foci?

That's another reason I think switching should be cheap. I've had three shifters get a certain top tier form and it's very frustrating if you're trying to experience something new in a certain foci.

But, the funniest part is that you get the highlighted notice that "You are no longer able to change forms!" RIGHT AFTER you shift into your final form.

I mean, either:
A) They already know this so the message is not needed, or
B) They did not know, and you've decided to wait until the knowledge is no longer useful to point it out.

Rejecting a form is based on prior experience with the form and feedback from others who've played the form. So, if any forms have been tweeked, the PB has to be told or else any future feedback is based on faulty data. I've had a giant wasp before. I'm not going to play one every couple of months to see if they have been tweaked. So, unless I know they have and how, I'll always reject that form.