1. Is it okay for me to use triggers to kill people?

I've always believed no, but there are players who have used them for years to amass a lot of PKs, and of course everyone's favorite villain is using them to sleep people. He's certainly not alone. I always thought it was just a tough thing for immortals to spot, not seeing from the player side, but that if it were spotted said character would be denied. Obviously, this isn't the case or we wouldn't have Shaapa and Marcus wrecking face with triggers over the years. It doesn't even seem to be frowned upon, really, as these characters still get titles and tattoos and leader spots and so forth.

Please give a clear answer on this. Because either I want to make my own triggers to chase and hit on entry etc., or I want the people who do use them denied so I don't have to compete on an un-level playing field.

2. Is it okay to log off if there's no one for me to kill?

I like my Kp/h to be high, but I stick to what I thought the rule was that a log in should be 45 minutes minimum. So often I log in and kill nothing but time for 45 minutes and it really hurts my K/ph. I always thought there was some leeway given because stuff happens, but that if you were doing this every couple days you'd be in trouble. Again, seems not be the case as characters who routinely do this seem to do alright in terms of rewards and recognition, and so I guess then certainly aren't punished.

Please give a clear answer on this. I either want to do this myself or have my competition be denied or otherwise demerited so we have a level playing field.

3. Is it okay for me to log off and log back to break grid lock?

Let's say I run all my opposing PKs out of Forbidden Forest. They are hiding in guilds and cabals and shrines. Is it okay for me to log out in the inn in the settlement to let things "reset" back to normal and maybe have them return to ranking. Then I can log back in and we can have more PK fun together. Or, let's say I take items and no one is retrieving. Can I log out for 20 minutes to see if something sort of shakes loose so we can get back to killing each other?

Please give a clear answer on this. Everyone's favorite villain uses this strategy a good bit, and it seemed like one immortal said it wasn't okay, but then nothing happened to that player except maybe a talking-to. He still has a title, tattoo, leader spot and didn't lose the weapon he built off the back of that strategy so I'm a little confused as to the rule here. Maybe there wasn't a consensus among the rest of the staff as to whether that's a violation? Again, I'd just like to have violators punished or someone to say it's fine so I can do it too and compete on a level playing field.

4. What's the policy on Discord and other VoIP options?

I know this is tough to police, so it seems like we shouldn't bother. Is it alright if we start making OOC groups or clans or whatever you call them (similar to like WoW and Eve and other games) and then coordinate over VoIP so that we can take advantage of knowledge and scouting amongst a wider range of people. If only one group who likes to push the boundaries of rules does this and everyone else shies away for want of being rule-followers it kind of creates a disparity in in-game capability.

Please give a clear answer on this? Either let's police it and punish, or let's make it clear it's allowed so we are all on a level playing field.

I know I don't speak for everyone, but it seems like a fair number of us are confused on what behavior is acceptable. Maybe it's 2 tours in Iraq and 1 tour in Afghanistan making me a little weird, and I fully admit that could be the case. But I'm used to clear rules of engagement. So, I'm humbly asking whoever is in charge to lay down the SOPs and ROEs regarding the above and enforce them in a way that is clear and fair to everyone.

>1. Is it okay for me to use triggers to kill people?
>
>I've always believed no, but there are players who have used
>them for years to amass a lot of PKs, and of course everyone's
>favorite villain is using them to sleep people. He's certainly
>not alone. I always thought it was just a tough thing for
>immortals to spot, not seeing from the player side, but that
>if it were spotted said character would be denied. Obviously,
>this isn't the case or we wouldn't have Shaapa and Marcus
>wrecking face with triggers over the years. It doesn't even
>seem to be frowned upon, really, as these characters still get
>titles and tattoos and leader spots and so forth.
>
>Please give a clear answer on this. Because either I want to
>make my own triggers to chase and hit on entry etc., or I want
>the people who do use them denied so I don't have to compete
>on an un-level playing field.


Sorry, but the best you're going to get out of me is from HELP TRIGGERS: "Using triggers is up to you, however using groups of triggers to automate all or a part of your character is called botting, and can be against the rules" with the addendum of we never punish first time offenders for this without a warning.

This is one of those things that, in our opinion, is most fair when it's left to our judgement.

Generally speaking if we see a pattern of someone using triggers and we feel confident there's enough automation that the character isn't really playing the game anymore then we intervene.


>2. Is it okay to log off if there's no one for me to kill?
>
>I like my Kp/h to be high, but I stick to what I thought the
>rule was that a log in should be 45 minutes minimum. So often
>I log in and kill nothing but time for 45 minutes and it
>really hurts my K/ph. I always thought there was some leeway
>given because stuff happens, but that if you were doing this
>every couple days you'd be in trouble. Again, seems not be the
>case as characters who routinely do this seem to do alright in
>terms of rewards and recognition, and so I guess then
>certainly aren't punished.
>
>Please give a clear answer on this. I either want to do this
>myself or have my competition be denied or otherwise demerited
>so we have a level playing field.

We've given guidelines before, but again, we're reserving the right to rely on our good judgement for this. A huge factor in this whether the player is immediately switching characters, at which point we're taking into consideration things like scouting, fair-weather playing, etc.

Again, AFAIK nobody has ever been punished for this without at least one, and typically multiple warnings.

>3. Is it okay for me to log off and log back to break grid
>lock?
>
>Let's say I run all my opposing PKs out of Forbidden Forest.
>They are hiding in guilds and cabals and shrines. Is it okay
>for me to log out in the inn in the settlement to let things
>"reset" back to normal and maybe have them return to ranking.
>Then I can log back in and we can have more PK fun together.
>Or, let's say I take items and no one is retrieving. Can I log
>out for 20 minutes to see if something sort of shakes loose so
>we can get back to killing each other?
>
>Please give a clear answer on this. Everyone's favorite
>villain uses this strategy a good bit, and it seemed like one
>immortal said it wasn't okay, but then nothing happened to
>that player except maybe a talking-to. He still has a title,
>tattoo, leader spot and didn't lose the weapon he built off
>the back of that strategy so I'm a little confused as to the
>rule here. Maybe there wasn't a consensus among the rest of
>the staff as to whether that's a violation? Again, I'd just
>like to have violators punished or someone to say it's fine so
>I can do it too and compete on a level playing field.

I would probably drop the hammer on someone doing this if/when I thought there was a pattern of deliberate behavior. Twenty minutes is probably a long enough break, though.

>4. What's the policy on Discord and other VoIP options?
>
>I know this is tough to police, so it seems like we shouldn't
>bother. Is it alright if we start making OOC groups or clans
>or whatever you call them (similar to like WoW and Eve and
>other games) and then coordinate over VoIP so that we can take
>advantage of knowledge and scouting amongst a wider range of
>people. If only one group who likes to push the boundaries of
>rules does this and everyone else shies away for want of being
>rule-followers it kind of creates a disparity in in-game
>capability.
>
>Please give a clear answer on this? Either let's police it and
>punish, or let's make it clear it's allowed so we are all on a
>level playing field.

There is more than one rule that covers perma-grouping, abusing OOC relationships, etc. If we're confident that's what's going on, we'll respond.

>I know I don't speak for everyone, but it seems like a fair
>number of us are confused on what behavior is acceptable.
>Maybe it's 2 tours in Iraq and 1 tour in Afghanistan making me
>a little weird, and I fully admit that could be the case. But
>I'm used to clear rules of engagement. So, I'm humbly asking
>whoever is in charge to lay down the SOPs and ROEs regarding
>the above and enforce them in a way that is clear and fair to
>everyone.

The thing players need to realize is this:

1. If we make the rules incredibly specific with hard cutoffs and thresholds then the people you're upset with now are just going to tow the line, abuse the letter of the law, and frustrate you almost if not equally as much and there would be nothing we could do.

2. Almost every player with decent PK chops would have gotten denied by now if we came down on every character just because a different player accused them of cheating. Pro alone has staked his life that every single one of you was using a trace-buster-buster to Heartbleed the SCSI port to lag him out and kill him. It takes a lot of time to actually catch people doing some of this stuff and feel confident enough about it to punish them. And then there's that whole we're humans with feelings too and some immortals are more lenient or trusting than others, sometimes to a fault.

I realize you didn't get your military code book level answers, but this is how it is. Not because that's how it's always been but because the admins genuinely believe this is the most fair, effective method for policing the things that unavoidably have some gray area.

Hey there, thanks for the fast and thorough response. Please, let me make sure I'm hearing you correctly.

>>1. Is it okay for me to use triggers to kill people?
>>
>>I've always believed no, but there are players who have used
>>them for years to amass a lot of PKs, and of course
>everyone's
>>favorite villain is using them to sleep people. He's
>certainly
>>not alone. I always thought it was just a tough thing for
>>immortals to spot, not seeing from the player side, but that
>>if it were spotted said character would be denied.
>Obviously,
>>this isn't the case or we wouldn't have Shaapa and Marcus
>>wrecking face with triggers over the years. It doesn't even
>>seem to be frowned upon, really, as these characters still
>get
>>titles and tattoos and leader spots and so forth.
>>
>>Please give a clear answer on this. Because either I want to
>>make my own triggers to chase and hit on entry etc., or I
>want
>>the people who do use them denied so I don't have to compete
>>on an un-level playing field.
>
>
>Sorry, but the best you're going to get out of me is from HELP
>TRIGGERS: "Using triggers is up to you, however using groups
>of triggers to automate all or a part of your character is
>called botting, and can be against the rules" with the
>addendum of we never punish first time offenders for this
>without a warning.
>
>This is one of those things that, in our opinion, is most fair
>when it's left to our judgement.
>
>Generally speaking if we see a pattern of someone using
>triggers and we feel confident there's enough automation that
>the character isn't really playing the game anymore then we
>intervene.
>
>

I hear: It's okay to use triggers that do the chasing, killing etc. faster than you could type as long as you aren't automating the character and are present. As long as you're looking on and playing the character the triggers are just providing an advantage similar to any alias or targeting system and therefore are completely acceptable in the eyes of the immortals.

The key thing is your present and in control.


>>2. Is it okay to log off if there's no one for me to kill?
>>
>>I like my Kp/h to be high, but I stick to what I thought the
>>rule was that a log in should be 45 minutes minimum. So
>often
>>I log in and kill nothing but time for 45 minutes and it
>>really hurts my K/ph. I always thought there was some leeway
>>given because stuff happens, but that if you were doing this
>>every couple days you'd be in trouble. Again, seems not be
>the
>>case as characters who routinely do this seem to do alright
>in
>>terms of rewards and recognition, and so I guess then
>>certainly aren't punished.
>>
>>Please give a clear answer on this. I either want to do this
>>myself or have my competition be denied or otherwise
>demerited
>>so we have a level playing field.
>
>We've given guidelines before, but again, we're reserving the
>right to rely on our good judgement for this. A huge factor
>in this whether the player is immediately switching
>characters, at which point we're taking into consideration
>things like scouting, fair-weather playing, etc.
>
>Again, AFAIK nobody has ever been punished for this without at
>least one, and typically multiple warnings.


I take this as it's okay for me to log my one character on, look around, say screw it and go clean my garage. It is not okay for me to log character A on, look around, say screw it and log character B on.

(My wife would prefer option A anyhow.)



>
>>3. Is it okay for me to log off and log back to break grid
>>lock?
>>
>>Let's say I run all my opposing PKs out of Forbidden Forest.
>>They are hiding in guilds and cabals and shrines. Is it okay
>>for me to log out in the inn in the settlement to let things
>>"reset" back to normal and maybe have them return to
>ranking.
>>Then I can log back in and we can have more PK fun together.
>>Or, let's say I take items and no one is retrieving. Can I
>log
>>out for 20 minutes to see if something sort of shakes loose
>so
>>we can get back to killing each other?
>>
>>Please give a clear answer on this. Everyone's favorite
>>villain uses this strategy a good bit, and it seemed like
>one
>>immortal said it wasn't okay, but then nothing happened to
>>that player except maybe a talking-to. He still has a title,
>>tattoo, leader spot and didn't lose the weapon he built off
>>the back of that strategy so I'm a little confused as to the
>>rule here. Maybe there wasn't a consensus among the rest of
>>the staff as to whether that's a violation? Again, I'd just
>>like to have violators punished or someone to say it's fine
>so
>>I can do it too and compete on a level playing field.
>
>I would probably drop the hammer on someone doing this if/when
>I thought there was a pattern of deliberate behavior. Twenty
>minutes is probably a long enough break, though.
>

Twenty minutes is a clear guide line. Thanks. I will quit and tell Siri to set a timer for twenty minutes.


>>4. What's the policy on Discord and other VoIP options?
>>
>>I know this is tough to police, so it seems like we
>shouldn't
>>bother. Is it alright if we start making OOC groups or clans
>>or whatever you call them (similar to like WoW and Eve and
>>other games) and then coordinate over VoIP so that we can
>take
>>advantage of knowledge and scouting amongst a wider range of
>>people. If only one group who likes to push the boundaries
>of
>>rules does this and everyone else shies away for want of
>being
>>rule-followers it kind of creates a disparity in in-game
>>capability.
>>
>>Please give a clear answer on this? Either let's police it
>and
>>punish, or let's make it clear it's allowed so we are all on
>a
>>level playing field.
>
>There is more than one rule that covers perma-grouping,
>abusing OOC relationships, etc. If we're confident that's
>what's going on, we'll respond.


This one confuses me. If I'm on FB chat with my buddy Ron and Ron sees my enemy sleeping at the entrance to the Pine Forest and he tells me and I go kill the guy how could you ever in a million years prove that I didn't just decide it was time to go check that area for something? I mean, unless Ron rats me out, that asshole, but he won't because we're comrades from way back.

I don't think you can ever prove it, so this creates a rule that people who will break rules will break, but people who follow rules will not break. That's an un-level playing field. It seems like this rule has outlived its efficacy because it cannot be tracked and enforced with any kind of consistency due to today's technology.

>
>>I know I don't speak for everyone, but it seems like a fair
>>number of us are confused on what behavior is acceptable.
>>Maybe it's 2 tours in Iraq and 1 tour in Afghanistan making
>me
>>a little weird, and I fully admit that could be the case.
>But
>>I'm used to clear rules of engagement. So, I'm humbly asking
>>whoever is in charge to lay down the SOPs and ROEs regarding
>>the above and enforce them in a way that is clear and fair
>to
>>everyone.
>
>The thing players need to realize is this:
>
>1. If we make the rules incredibly specific with hard cutoffs
>and thresholds then the people you're upset with now are just
>going to tow the line, abuse the letter of the law, and
>frustrate you almost if not equally as much and there would be
>nothing we could do.
>
>2. Almost every player with decent PK chops would have gotten
>denied by now if we came down on every character just because
>a different player accused them of cheating. Pro alone has
>staked his life that every single one of you was using a
>trace-buster-buster to Heartbleed the SCSI port to lag him out
>and kill him. It takes a lot of time to actually catch people
>doing some of this stuff and feel confident enough about it to
>punish them. And then there's that whole we're humans with
>feelings too and some immortals are more lenient or trusting
>than others, sometimes to a fault.
>
>I realize you didn't get your military code book level
>answers, but this is how it is. Not because that's how it's
>always been but because the admins genuinely believe this is
>the most fair, effective method for policing the things that
>unavoidably have some gray area.

Keeping going with that analogy, I agree. In the field we had rules about who we could kill and under what circumstances. There's a term (I think) everyone knows called, "the fog of war." This is the gray are you're talking about. Were there people I killed in the heat of a life-or-death moment maybe I shouldn't have? Yes. Is my conscience clear? Yes. Because although there was some ambiguity to my ROEs they were defined enough that I can feel confident in the judgment calls I made. I would respectfully say that in the case of the above examples you are too vague and have too much gray area. Things need not be black and white, but I think could benefit from a little more contrast in the gray.

Don't take this as me complaining about Bak, which I think is how it came off. Take this as me seeing, through Bak, that he and I are playing with different rules or different assumptions about the rules.

This is me trying to get a clear understanding of what the rules are, precisely so I am NOT shouting, "He's cheating!" And so I can go forward competing on a level playing field.

You are totally complaining along with half the playerbase just because you, like them, think you see the opportunity to get some guy you don't like get his character screwed by the administration by participating with the mob in this trendy pretend outrage.

What you should do instead is: git gud

Also using the same breath you bitched in to say you're not a bitch makes you a double-bitch. Impressive.

I'm not under any illusion that posting something on the forums gets someone in trouble in the game. What? They are going to be like, "Wait, someone is cheating?! We better watch!" Again, I want to know what is and isn't okay for ME. Because I have been making wrong assumptions about the rules and their enforcement all this time I've been playing at a disadvantage. No big deal, I've already adapted my play style to emulate Bak.

I'm all for clearly defined and consistently enforced policy, and call me cynical, but that's not what this is about at all. There's a reason we're having this sudden, public dumpster-fire episode now and not in a slow and steady way earlier.

You guys are about as opaque with your intentions as a child, so I really shouldn't be surprised you rationalize your behavior to yourself like a child too.

I actually have a lot of personal enmity for the player in question here, but watching a bunch of bitch boys mob together and try to drag him through the mud just so mommy will stop him from playing since he's winning too much is just so nauseating I can't help but call it out. I'd tell you to at least just man up and say what you really want here, but then you wouldn't get it, and you obviously realize this too.

You know, we were friends years ago? We used to talk on AIM or ICQ all the time. My screen name was Katana or something similar. That's why I'm bothering to reply.

Anywho, I don't understand why everyone on CF has to troll in every post now. Like calling me a bitch, a cunt and a child. WTF? But, I guess that goes hand-in-hand with this idea that I'm somehow saying one thing but really trying to troll.

Let me reiterate: I want to know what -I- can do. I don't care what Bak does. As I said, Bak does things I thought, prior to this post, were against the rules. The fact that he wasn't punished didn't cause me to rant and cry about conspiracies. It caused me to question -my- understanding of rules. So I asked about the specific things I saw him do that I didn't think were allowed for my own clarity on the rules. Again, I reiterate, I don't for half a second think this is somehow going to get him in trouble.

Let me put it another way. If you could wave a magic wand and say, "Relio, you've got two choices. One, we can sacrifice Bak's weapon as punishment for douchery. Or two, from now on you can use triggers, log out if you don't like the way your range looks and quit out after you raid to let opposition reclaim their item so twenty minutes later you can log on and take their item again and kill a bunch of them in the process." I would take option two. Every. Single. Time.

I don't think you fully appreciate how much this helps me kill more people on CF. That's so much more important to me than dragging a douche canoe "through the mud" who's already hated by 90% of CF players. Further, I don't think he's really winning, as you put it. If I wanted to focus on nothing but PK 10 hours a day and not ever see the sun, earn a paycheck or touch a woman I'm sure I could produce the same results. Alas, I like sunshine, money and sex so... I guess I'm the one winning.

Don't be like the trolls, Robdarken. You're better than them. You're enormously creative and witty, man. Stick with that.

I don't recognize that handle, sorry. I've talked to very few CFers ever, unless you were that Seelederqualeri (sp?) guy I don't think I knew you.

I've said enough already about the rest.

My favourite part was where you call OTHER people trolls.

You really don’t understand do you. You called Bak a douche and a guy who never sees sunlight, pay checks or gets sex. You also downplay his skill saying that your could easily achieve such heights if your forgo these things. You’re the douche mate. Keep winning!

For each of your conclusions.

I haven't played in several years, so take that for what it's worth.

Case by case basis works fine.

You hear wrong. If you're using a trigger that does 'c sleep dildo' when they enter the room, that's not okay and you're going to get imm-slain for it soon enough.

A fringe thing would be say, the kinds of triggers that throw the commands you want to respond with into your input field on your client but don't send them until you press enter. This is particularly advantageous for dash triggers on a flee since you don't have to figure out which way they went. ####ty but some people have done this and that's hard to catch. In the case of our Russians it's kind of whatever because they have at least 200ms ping anyway, between that and human reaction time it probably doesn't matter. Also a-ps don't have dash.

Siri is spying on you. And also cheating on you.

I think it's reasonably well established at this point that nearly everyone is communicating with somebody, -especially- the ones who claim not to be. But probably not in voice chat, and not as diligently or with as many people at once as you think. You have to adapt to it, yes, but as a reasonably good pker, you don't need your own network to compensate as long as you're paranoid about everyone.

If you're a regular kinda guy maybe you'll get some free pks out of having a tattler network. But I am under the impression that a-p man plays like I do and is constantly hunting, checking, and rechecking every location in the game without pause to pk people. It really wouldn't change anything for him if that's what you're worried about.

I don't communicate with anyone from this game OOC. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But you're communicating with me right now!

#GOTTEM

I did say nearly everyone, not everyone. (Also, I believe you.)

And communicating, but not coordinating or colluding. It's a really small subset that does that. And you don't really have to worry about them unless you're someone like Bakr.

Basically unless you're Bakr stop wasting effort thinking about people gankstalking you in discord, and certainly don't use that belief as justification to do that to someone. That was my point.

Especially considering the amount of time that is required to police these instances, also considering that running the game is a job that is voluntary.

I have definitely encountered chase triggers, but even as a player it can be quite hard to tell if the person is either much quicker than I or if it’s a genuine trigger.

Log in/outs have been recently addressed to what I consider a reasonable level, above stipulations considered.

Re iscord. In the general Discord channel there has been no real voice communication, instead being more of a chat room. Yes, ooc collaboration is made easier with such a medium, but not to a greater degree than AIM has been used in the past. Everyone is welcome from what I have seen, so if you suspect the general group is being abused feel free to drop in and either dispel or confirm your suspicions. Though, the last few days has just been Bakrmarr complaints, much like the last few days here and on qhcf.

The person that I suspect runs the character has been a strong and positive player over several characters, so I am not on the crucifixion bandwagon. Honestly the problem in this instance is the class reliance on building a weapon from pks and also not dying yourself. If there was a way to retain some viability after losing your weapon I don’t think that the ratio of full sacs wouldn’t be anywhere close to what we are seeing. All of this other stuff is kind of a witch hunt vs that player. Perhaps the anger is justified, but none of these things were such a hot topic before said player decided to not give people the chance to wreck their character. If we want to change anything to remedy the situation we should look to small simple adjustments that could be made to the mechanics behind AP weapons. Complete overhauls are tons of work and there is a lot going on codewise already, so I think that tweaks that balance what we already have are preferable to tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Just my take.

Thanks for the response, Umi.

ny

It's pretty clear you are frustrated and that is exactly what this is all about. It is fine to be butt hurt and pked into oblivion by someone breaking rules and to bring attention to it though. I just don't see why you need to try and say that's not what this is.

In Umiron's you can clearly see he is *not* cheating. His behavior is perfectly in the bounds of the rules.

In mine I already address your comment.

I am definitely gonna start using sleep/blackjack/etc triggers when I come back based on his post. As long as I am at my computer watching they are okay. This is a change from how things used to be. It doesn't seem like a big deal to someone who doesn't play morts or actively pk and I get that, but they are game changers.

Especially for the things you mentioned like sleep, blackjack, PWK, wither etc.

Plus triggers are huge for classes that can't permalag. A windwalking shaman with energy drain chase triggers would be absolutely brutal.

I don't know if it's a change, or just that we've been under a misconception for a long time - but I'm definitely doing this.

"Part of being "in control" of your character means that if I send you a couple test echoes to trigger your triggers your client isn't going to respond like you're mid-PK when you aren't. For example."

I would be careful with the above if I were you. If they send the echo "Bob has arrived." and you immediately enter "blackjack bob" that probably won't go down well.

Depending on your client you can either do it with a button/hotkey/alias. But the reality is that there are a subset of players who have specifically claimed to use those systems and it doesn't lead to much if any enforcement.

True back in the day they cracked down on Marcus and he stopped using the chase triggers but that hasn't been the policy for years even if a significant chunk of the player base has thought it was. I mean some(maybe just a) imms playing morts had triggers to set targets so they could rapidly leverage dash aliases to chase players. So it's understandable that the admin position has changed.


Personally I think using attack/chase/disarm triggers should be met with a deny and a month long ban on the player. It's hard to police so the punishment for being caught should be proportional to how hard it is to detect. I think all of those fundamentally remove the human aspect of the game. Especially disarm triggers, that neutralizes so many tactics and while yes they can be self detrimental it's clearly not significant enough from a user standpoint that they aren't fairly common.

A better solution of course would be adjusting game mechanics to make triggers less effective but that's likely a hell of a lot of work and honestly there are like a million other things that would be way cooler for our coders to spend their time on.

I also know there are players who feel about aliases the way I feel about triggers. To me the difference is that a button/alias simply reduces keystrokes whereas a trigger eliminates the need to process a decision.

Like if I used a targeting system and alias to help chase.

E.g. control + numpad 6 = dash e trip target

I assume you mean using a trigger based on "XXX has fled west" to fill in the direction to the dash alias.

That would be more automation than I would like to see but still you need to cognizantly using your alias/hotkey to execute the command. So I would accept it as a gray area.

For me the defining line is if the player is inputting a command vs the client inputting them. I would argue any command not entered through the keyboard/mouse is botting.

I have four aliases on my numpad. If I press 8,2,6,4 I go north, south, east, west (this is how I assume most players navigate).

However I hold control and press the same keys I "dash <direction pressed> trip <target>"

Essentially when I see someone flee west, I have to hit control+west to dash that direction.

for asking if this was ok in RotD

Expect some punishment

NT

I think this is why he was vague. Because clearly you're using his responses as license to do exactly what you suspect about another player.

Pretty clear that if I'm out of line I'll get plenty of warnings first.

Firstly my post was a response to Umi’s post and a bit of my own opinion on the relevant topics, not just about that character. Secondly it’s not possible to derail the thread away from a topic that you yourself referenced several times in the original post. The only difference is that I put a name to the character rather than just refer to them as “Everyone’a favorite villan.”. If that wasn’t the character that you were referencing then I do apologize, but the specific information that you added to describe EFV’s tactics/actions did not leave much room for speculation.

Part of being "in control" of your character means that if I send you a couple test echoes to trigger your triggers your client isn't going to respond like you're mid-PK when you aren't. For example.

We can't force people to refrain from using sleep/chase triggers, nor can we always prove it beyond a shadow of doubt when it happens even when a pattern may develop. It's subjective to a degree. Deal with it.

At the end of the day it boils down to: use triggers at your own risk.

We reserve the right to punish people for them if we feel like they've taken them too far, like we always have. Likewise, our rules give the staff the latitude to do so regardless of whether you have this post bookmarked like some "I know my rights, man!" cop-trolling asshole.

Now, that's enough of that crap for a while. Cheerio.

I took the time to thoughtfully and politely post what I feel are legitimate questions about rules because, primarily, I want to obey the rules you guys lay down. If I see another player and I think he's doing it differently I don't want to whine and moan and cast aspersions and accusations. I just politely asked for clarity on the rules. You replied. Then I took the time to write another thoughtful, respectful post to make sure I was properly understanding your answers.

You respond to this without answering all my questions and give me "deal with it" and "that's enough of that crap?" I don't know what to say...I guess that's internet anonymity for you.

>You respond to this without answering all my questions and give me "deal with it" and "that's enough of that crap?" I don't know what to say...I guess that's internet anonymity for you.

You had a Response AND an Addendum: I never got any answer from Umiron.

Obviously he's too busy with real life, or coding CF, or doesn't like to be cornered, or having to justify the lack of logic of some CF Immortals decisions.

For some reason, it's very hard to have a real discussion with some CF Imms...

P

You’re an absolute cunt.

I just think if he played the game and enjoyed it instead of just coding for it his decisions and views would start making more sense.

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And his passive aggressive, holier than thou BS.

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What can you do? You have to deal with little keyboard commandos like Umiron and Bemused. Just laugh and shake your head.

I also find it funny how everyone thinks you're talking about Umiron while it's obviously Relio

There are not clear cut rules that define what does and does not constitute excess automation. Or more accurately the behavior you were asking about falls into a gray area where decisions are made on a case by case basis.


I totally sympathize and share your frustrations but the admin team uses admin consensus to set policy and there are enough differences of opinion on that team that result in the gray area response to your specific questions.

I appreciate that umiron was willing to be open and direct on these issues as well as many others in the past. Especially knowing that being the messenger comes with a substantial amount of overhead for his troubles.

I am sure if a new admin consensus is reached it will be communicated and enforced but this is the current state. I also think discussions on the forums have the potential to be constructive. You laid out your thoughts well, now you just need to sit back and let the conversation continue or bring new angles to it.