I know Sebeok is making minor adjustments here and there with
thieves, but I wanted to make a suggestion that probably goes
a little beyond the scope of the changes so far:

Give all thieves Circle.

Kick is just.. grand.. but if all thieves had circle you could
devote your time to rebalancing all the little ins and outs of
the paths without having to hear that some thieves have really
nothing to do in combat.

So please consider adding circle to all thieves and just taking
the points unspent by the paths that had it before and raising
the cost of the skills below circle by that amount.

Pretty please? I've tried wuss thieves twice. It's horrible.

Still think thieves should see the path-skill points so as to better plan their paths, especially for those who path-cross.

>Still think thieves should see the path-skill points so as to
>better plan their paths, especially for those who path-cross.

I'm not inclined to play favor to the min/max guys.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Hopefully somethings can be considered :
1. Emetic should have more uses like putting it on weapons.
2. Knock-out poison should not use up a whole vial. Maybe 2-3 uses per vial. Thieves with blackjack have no limited uses, and they can keep whacking without much cost involved. Poison thief have it tuff.
3. Have a small air-tight container to contain 4-5 potions, which allows the duration of the vials inside to last longer.
4. Examining a vial will give some duration descriptions like - concentrated (just mixed), normal, diluted, after which the vial evaporates.
5. Looking at a poison weapon should disclose the sticky substance upon it, ie still poisoned.
6. Suggest should work with eat/drink. This will make eat-drink poisons more useful.
7. Concoct antidote should nullify other kinds of poison like spells and prayers.

So far, I believe the thief revamp has been really well thought out and a thief is more like a thief now.

Suggestions for Sebeok and other Imms involved in thief project.
Honorable mention – Cyradia who started it.

While reading below please bear in mind - These are my observations on subject how could we improve poison thieves. Nothing more, nothing less.

Just for a reference

List of Poison thief skills (taken from Dio):

Level 12:
Food Poison
Concoct Poison
Emetic Poison
Apply
Level 14:
Drink Poison
Antidote
Level 17:
Inhaled Poison
Level 19:
Knock-out
Level 23:
Weapon Poison
Neurological Poison
Level 28:
Grease Weapon
Level 30:
Fear Poison
Level 33:
Contact Poison
Level 35:
Weapon Nick
Level 36:
Mind Control
Level 40:
Grenade


a) Slightly change names of the skills
I read that help files on poisons three times before I understood the concept.
It is really confusing.

Could you change skill names a bit to distinguish type from method (same thing with trap names)?
Like:
Food poisoning
Drink poisoning
Inhaled poisoning
Weapon poisoning
Contact poisoning

Type:
Emetic poison type
Knock-out poison type
Neuro poison type
Mind control poison type

b) Add extra poison
'Poison' poison type - deals damage (applied by all methods)

Not really my idea. It was mentioned below. But it fits perfectly.
I would think this would be a first poison thieves should be able to learn.

c) Change antidote a bit
Antidote - it is drink container right now.
What are you suppose to do with 'knock-out antidote' drink container anyway?

Change it to 'antidote' item type. So thief has to 'apply' it to cure himself or others.
Something like 'apply <antidote> <self/person>'

d) Get rid of 'Grease weapon' completely for following reasons:
-It never worked for me or any poison thieves (I mean it never made weapon slip from somebody's hand)
-It mimics invoker's spell 'grease' too much
-It does not fit poison path. I would give it to binder instead. With bonus to 'sleeping disarm' perhaps.

e) Lower level on 'Weapon nick'
In my mind it comes a little too late.
Most classes have their most potent abilities learned already.
Say level 28 instead of grease_weapon.

f) Weapons with poison on them
Poison thief should be able to notice poison crystals on the blade as he examines it.
Could you please modify 'examine' command to reflect it?

g) 'Clean weapon' command
Opposite version of 'weapon poison'.
I would like to be able to carefully wipe poison from my blade with rag and reapply different kind.
At this moment I am forced to wait ~100 hours for poison to dry out or use another weapon.

h) Allow 'suggest wield/hold/wear' and 'suggest drink/eat'
This will give some interesting options to poison thief. And it perfectly fits into suggest idea.

i) Split Grenade into two.
One for poison thieves and one for trappers.

It does not make sense to me as dedicated poisoner to suddenly learn how to handle 'trap ingredients' and make explosives out of them without any prior experience.

>b) Add extra poison
>'Poison' poison type - deals damage (applied by all methods)

That would rule. It was shameful when a groupmate would get
poisoned by another PC or NPC and I couldn't make an antidote.
I know you guys shun the overlap, but if anyone should know
your regular poisons, it's the poisoners.

>c) Change antidote a bit
>Something like 'apply <antidote> <self/person>'
>g) 'Clean weapon' command
>Opposite version of 'weapon poison'.

If you add 'item' to the antidote apply list you suggest,
that lets you 'clean weapon/armor' or weapon poison and
contact poison. Would it work on regular poison-progged
weapons? Might be too much of a pain.

>f) Weapons with poison on them
>Poison thief should be able to notice poison crystals on the
>blade as he examines it.
>Could you please modify 'examine' command to reflect it?

Totally agree. While my lazy brain should be able to keep track
of things like this I never could keep straight which poison was
on which weapon. Or if I thought, or did, miss the wear-off I
would have to concoct a poison to try and apply to see if the
weapon was poisoned or not. It would also be nice if you could
see if, as a poisoner thief, someone was trying to trade you a
contact poisoned item. *wink*

>h) Allow 'suggest wield/hold/wear' and 'suggest drink/eat'
>This will give some interesting options to poison thief. And
>it perfectly fits into suggest idea.

My guess, I couldn't cope with getting that far, would be that
those commands could be combined with not-so-innocent items to
kill someone outright.

>d) Get rid of 'Grease weapon' completely for following
>e) Lower level on 'Weapon nick'
>Say level 28 instead of grease_weapon.

Totally agree. If the 'poison' poison, adding poison to examine,
and a way to de-poison a blade were somehow implemented, the path
would be far more user-friendly and I'd try it again without the
seemingly useless skill grease_weapon.

>i) Split Grenade into two.

I just want to make the holy hand grenade of Antioch.

Anyway, kudos to Cyradia and Sebeok and whoever else (Zulg?) for
not only getting such an interesting revamp in, and following
it up with bug-fixes and adjustments to help make the various
paths playable.

>Suggestions for Sebeok and other Imms involved in thief
>project. Honorable mention – Cyradia who started it.

Cyradia, Bria, Astein, Mynawk, Sebeok and myself (I think I got everyone)

>f) Weapons with poison on them
>Poison thief should be able to notice poison crystals on the
>blade as he examines it.
>Could you please modify 'examine' command to reflect it?

Reasonable...added next crash/reboot.

>g) 'Clean weapon' command
>Opposite version of 'weapon poison'.
>I would like to be able to carefully wipe poison from my blade
>with rag and reapply different kind.
>At this moment I am forced to wait ~100 hours for poison to
>dry out or use another weapon.

Again, reasonable...added next crash/reboot.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I agree with getting rid of grease and grenade for poison thieves. I must have greased a dozen weapons, and they never dropped them once. Give them a damaging poison type instead of grenade, something that lasts a long time and can be used in ranking! Or doesn't last long but doesn't require ingredients. Also nick should definately be lowered or the amount a poisoned weapon acutally poisons raised. I remember rarely hitting with my poisoned weapons.

If they tweaked poison thieves just abit more to make them more player friendly, I'd try them again.

Down with grease and grenade!
Up with damaging poison!

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I have a poisoner in the mid-20's and having grouped with thieves from other paths, I can say I felt underpowered compared to them when not tanking. Circle should make up that difference.

However, since we're on the subject of thieves, other things about this path left me with a number of questions. I may discover the why's later on so pardon me if I'm jumping the gun here.

1. No emetic weapon poison? That seemed really odd to me. Here my character is devoting his life to the study of poisons, but if he wants a poisoned weapon that does damage rather than maledictions, he'll have to go hunt up one that's pre-poisoned.

2. Maybe it's just me, put pre-poisoned weapons seem to discharge much more frequently than his applied poisons. I though it strange that a warrior weilding a pre-poisoned weapon with no education in the art would have a better chance of poisoning than my character.

3. Why bother to give inhaled poisons at 17 when emetic can't be inhaled and you can't learn knock-out till lvl 19. My opinion ,(for what little it's worth) give both at the same time.

Sorry if I've dug up some old complaints here. Just my observations.

Note: Regarding the recent area chages from a poisoner's perspective: Thank You! I'm very pleased that I now do not have to subject my character to "random" lightning strikes, ambushes and various other creepy-crawlies while trying to gather ingredients. I like my cobblestones very much.

>1. No emetic weapon poison? That seemed really odd to me.
>Here my character is devoting his life to the study of
>poisons, but if he wants a poisoned weapon that does damage
>rather than maledictions, he'll have to go hunt up one that's
>pre-poisoned.

That really is kind of weird. It would be nice to have at
least one poison that helps during ranking, and if it were
emetic the countryside would be littered in vomit. You can
never have enough vomit in the countryside. Maybe just a
simple 'envenom' or something that doesn't require ingredients
because noone wants to go through and redo a stack of those.

>2. Maybe it's just me, put pre-poisoned weapons seem to
>discharge much more frequently than his applied poisons. I
>though it strange that a warrior weilding a pre-poisoned
>weapon with no education in the art would have a better chance
>of poisoning than my character.

You can poison a pre-poisoned blade. For example, a fear poison
on a poisoned dagger can both 'normal' poison them and give
them the big freak out.

>3. Why bother to give inhaled poisons at 17 when emetic can't
>be inhaled and you can't learn knock-out till lvl 19. My
>opinion ,(for what little it's worth) give both at the same
>time.

Really good point. I'd prefer the option of inhaled as a
method on emetic, but either way an adjustment there makes
sense. Of course between 1 & 2 you're talking about emetic
having all the delivery methods and that's probably not the
best idea.

What I'd really like are some pre-20 poisons available in
the Tar Valon and Eryn Galen Guilds (Hillcrest rules!).

On the flip side of things, 'Charge Weapon' could have a chance
to strip off 'Contact Poison' or 'Weapon Poison'. And 'Pillar of
Lightning' could have a chance to 1) strip the poison off the
blades of the person hit or 2) burn the poisons out of the
bloodstream of the person hit.

>That really is kind of weird. It would be nice to have at
>least one poison that helps during ranking, and if it were
>emetic the countryside would be littered in vomit. You can
>never have enough vomit in the countryside. Maybe just a
>simple 'envenom' or something that doesn't require
>ingredients
>because noone wants to go through and redo a stack of those.

I'd rather make my own that way I can determine the strength of it. I'm not going to waste my strongest, most expensive ingredients on some skinny arse elf. Either way, it seems pretty silly that an assassin can create a dagger with damaging poison but a poison thief can't.

>
>You can poison a pre-poisoned blade. For example, a fear
>poison
>on a poisoned dagger can both 'normal' poison them and give
>them the big freak out.

You may have missed my point. From my experience, a drow whip will poison sooner and more often than my dagger with neurologic on it.

>
>Really good point. I'd prefer the option of inhaled as a
>method on emetic, but either way an adjustment there makes
>sense. Of course between 1 & 2 you're talking about emetic
>having all the delivery methods and that's probably not the
>best idea.

Don't want inhaled emetic. Since it would no dobut be impossible to do in combat and could only be used to initiate combat, it would negate backstab. I'd much rather drive my dagger between their shoulder blades and watch them heave lunch all over eastern road.

>What I'd really like are some pre-20 poisons available in
>the Tar Valon and Eryn Galen Guilds (Hillcrest rules!).

There are ingredients available for sale at lvl 15 other than hillcrest, it's just a matter of looking for them. Dropped ingredients have recently become accessable to lower levels (Thanks Amaranthe). Both are fortunate since some thieves can't even get to Eryn Galen at lower levels.

Another thing that would seem to make sence is some sort of resist poison. I think it would be the ultimate embarrasment for a poison thief to die from a pre-poisoned weapon.

We were kicking around some ideas like this, and finally agreed upon and implemented one. As seen on the announcements board:


All thieves now have circle stab, which has been modified. Thieves who were previously required to learn circle stab, will now have to learn precision strike. See HELP PRECISION STRIKE.

The points any thief had spent on circle have been refunded.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Any chance that you could coolify shadow dissapear such that you could pick a direction to dissapear into, or the same room. So if you just typed in shadowdissapear, its in the same room, or you could do shadowdissapear e/w etc. I think this could be a neat and not overpowered change because lets face it, its a nice skill, but not as nice as fleeing in most situations.

Cheers,
Romanul.

Say Thank you first!!!!


THANKS IMMS! Poison thieves are slowly getting close to tolerable and the other ones are much better!

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Is not vanish.

All you basically do is hide int he same room that the combat
took place in. And it is almost always better than fleeing and
it is much better than retreat.

-Cassman-

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Seriously. It fits the class, makes the less
used thief paths more playable, is perfect from
a roleplay standpoint, and is not really as
overpowered as you might think. Just give it
to them at level 40 or something. It'd be
perfect.

>Seriously. It fits the class, makes the less
>used thief paths more playable, is perfect from
>a roleplay standpoint, and is not really as
>overpowered as you might think. Just give it
>to them at level 40 or something. It'd be
>perfect.

But whatever.

Acrobatics are so close to be overpowered it is sad, so no all thieves should not get it.

n/t

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Agree totally, I was stumped that thief lost circle. Thieves don't dish out damage while in a group unless with backstab/knife. Circle helps them be useful in the group. Please consider and let them have it back. It's the only <20 skill that is effective in group fighting.

Hope this circle goes in.

And some thieves don't even get knife. My poisoner thief was the most boring in combat character of all time.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

I have to admit though, without plant it wouldn't have nearly the appeal.

Trapper skill disengage was decent for ranking. Can get you the extra attacks of autoassist every other round if you set your group up right.

Kick is just really really ...blah.