Just curious with Jakhu going 156 and 0 in pks is the combination too op? Perhaps outlander muters should lose duo like asns lose hide?

Stats can be inflated if you follow a strict code of engagement like that character did. He would not engage anyone who remotely understood how to fight transmuters or was close to his own level despite his great gear.

Dark elven transmuters have a much harder time through the ranks and at hero he wouldn't be nearly as scary as he was mid ranks (and he knew that hence 41 )

NT

Muters are still strong at hero, but they ARE even stronger in 36-40 ranks as a human.

The only downside is how glass-cannon all lowbies are to an extent due to low HP.

THe dude never attacked anyone with svp. And several people I know were wearing svp sets specifically because of him.

Which is why outlander is in play. The ability to pick fights with very nearly 100% impunity even if people know you are there is what is OP. Why engage someone geared to fight you? Just look at them, see their gear, and then move along.

Camo and hide both protect classes with them in similar ways, but even assassin hide has more restrictions than duo *and* if someone can see you, they can strike. Duo stops even that. Unless there is some hidden hard counter to duo (enemy muter?) that I'm not aware of, the issue with muters is really an issue with duo being too good, or the combo of duo + chamo being too good, not because you can be both at the same time, but because you can switch between when the situation warrants, giving you zero? enemies who can both see you and do something about it directly.

Not the OP part.

if you can't pick literally every fight. Even the ranger and assassin builds that could do similar numbers *could* have an anti-build made specifically to counter them. Building an anti-muter build by wearing svs vs para doesn't work if they can simply choose not to fight you. Which they can.

Air/Offense HAD similar "benefits" with the aspect of "Choosing your fights" which stealth allows.

Yes thieves and rangers also have high amounts of stealth, but in the case of thieves they play SOOOO different due to paths/points...and rangers have never really been "strong" outside of the wilderness, and therefore, can't join the assassin/muter top tier.

That being said, the stealth sets those classes apart from classes like necro/invoker/warrior so I don't know what to do. You want differentiation between your classes...

Or whatever that would not only be able to see them, but exploit their weaknesses (4 rounds of lag coming out of duo + probably being slowed) in a way that puts them on the defensive.

Does aoe bring them out no?

And got a command off, which is generally not where muter shines.

I don't believe AOE brings them out in the general case, but I haven't played a muter myself. I know when I had the warrior legacy that lets you target by number I could see muters, but couldn't do anything to actually engage them in combat while they were duo, including wingsweep.

Unless I misremember

I don't believe overall AoE did, but I could be wrong.

Honestly, I've been in a general agreement that SOMEWHERE in the stealth/cherry-picking/escape factors of transmuters there's a little much. I don't think it's in straight "power", though, just their ability to select what they've involved in vs. now. I know there are others that disagree with me, too. Part of why I keep intending to remove transmuter from the list of classes I haven't played (Just them, shaman, bard, and healer left).

In the case of this discussion, I'm not certain if everyone's aware, but I believe there was a slight tweak that a transmuter can no longer be both chameleon'd and duo'd at the same time. It's only a *SLIGHT* detriment, but at least there's a small window of being visible (in particular on who), as opposed to being able to be concealed from 99% of the mud for hours on end.

Give duo a cooldown, so that it can only be used 1 out of every 2 hours (or whatever). I mean conjies are sooo easy to play they have to have giant cooldowns, so why not muters? It would have the added benefit of making duo be used either offensively or defensively, since you couldn't both get the jump on people with it, and escape with it in the same fight.

Allow people with detect invis to see a muter X% of the time, and allow them to attack and bring them out of duo.

Chamo and duo being mutually incompatible makes very little IC sense, and is really a matter of 2-4 rounds of "visibility" over pretty long periods of time...

I don't know if muter can eat/drink while duo, but there is probably something like with assassins where manipulating stuff causes you to come out.

I should also probably play a muter, but I'm not sure what I'd learn other than I'm not patient enough to cherry pick this many kills... Mostly because it is boring as ####.

Once you leave duo, you have 1 tick cooldown to jump back. This would solve SO many things about muters w/o nerfing them to oblivion.

At some point muters gained the ability to do a 'where' while duo. I know it doesn't always work, but you just spam it until it does. Last time I played a serious muter, you could not do a 'where' at all while duo. I'm not sure why the change was made, but it allows them to hunt and never risk coming vis. If they lost that one perk, it would be a very different ballgame. Like the days of old, if you wanted to see if your victim was in an area, vis....lag....where, c duo.

Invokers can set stuff like conglaciation and pit which I think brings muters out of duo if they take damage (I could be mistaken).

Also, pretty sure there are at least 2 air forms that can see duo'd muters.

Also seeing a muter is considerably different from being able to do something about it. I don't know about you, but generally speaking I don't tend to open fights with faerie fog if I intend to actually kill the other person, which is what an air form would be doing.

Invoker just sits in one spot, waiting for a muter to be dumb/unlucky, which isn't the same as being on the offensive.

For other classes, super hard.

It is what it is.

To whit, http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=62981&mesg_id=63010&page= and http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=19865&mesg_id=19881&page=

Also Wtf happened in the temple of divine lol

Vhergruhl never actually killed Llorenz. Just sayin'.

2) He never killed me either (well...think he got me once in a 3 on 1 but yeah)

3) He went 200-10. And basically said I was the only warrior who made him run. To me, that affords me a bit of "street cred" when I am talking about fighting transmuters.

You specifically said that, for some classes, killing transmuters is easy, then gave your experience with Llorenz as an example. I just pointed out that you never actually killed him, so maybe it's not as easy as you make it out to be.

If you'd said, "It's easy to survive transmuter fights with some classes and to make them run 9 times out of 10" then I wouldn't have said anything.

I'm pretty sure I could do a better one now.

NT

I think his gear insta killed me once (iOun stone mental thing). I was a village ace spec and he was easy to beat until he got the no disarm staff from silent tower (maybe that was what did the pyscic assault). Even after it was always draws, and only because he had despoil, which isn't a thing anymore.

Hot tip, if you disarm a muter as anyone with dual wield and at least third attack they go down fast.

So, the most important thing you can possibly do to kill a muter is get his ####ing staff out of his ####ing hands.

Like all mages, even hasted and you slow, he'll die like a bitch without a weapon.

So any strong maledicting class combos are going to be hella dangerous for a muter, especially classes like Warrior (dagger spec)/ Druid/Shaman/Necro/AP who can drain their mana/regen.

That being said, classes like ranger/thief/orc (assuming noremove staff)/bard*/paladin/shifter/invoker (assuming no needle mals + immolation)/conjurer*/healer** are pretty much meat for a transmuter who knows what they are doing.

*Edited to add: These opponents play slightly different in PK, in that with conjurers you often go ALL DAMAGE and with bards you can use spells that drop their charisma and potentially prevent them from singing.

**Second edit: Healer is meat because YOU have so many tools to drain his mana. And a healer without mana is a dead ####ing healer. Paladin is SLIGHTLY similar if you find yourself unable to match them in melee. As is any insanely geared invoker/shifter. FWIW Healer is the one class I'd keep a nice exotic (or poisonous dagger) on hand for because of options with maledicting wands.

It is about *hunting* a muter. Which you can't do in any reasonable capacity that I'm aware of. I believe I had an archer cave ranger briefly during Jahku's time that could see him in caves and see him in chamo, so in theory he could be hunted, but in practice even that character didn't see Jahku 90+% of the time and couldn't track him reasonably because duo works everywhere... Also I couldn't attack him directly even when I could see him... Just eat violet roots and hope.

You can't always hunt people in the traditional sense.

You gotta out think him. Make him think he's hunting you, but you're actually drawing him in close to put himself in a situation where you can take away some of his advantages.

but nothing hunts muters. They are immune, as far as I can tell, from PK's that aren't 100% their choice to engage in (or a mistake).

Nerf the lag on transmuters like you nerfed the lag on assassins, fire giant warriors at level 15 etc. Aka, no permalag till level 51 - problem solved.

But no, we have other things to #### with.

PS: No, I've never died to Jakhu or his incarnations. If you are smart enough to wear -paralize eq - you'll be ok and he'll never face you after that.

gr

But certain classes are pistols (yeah you can still kill people) and other classes are AKs (you can kill LOTS of people).

1 or 2 classes is an RPG by the way. Transmuter is one of them.

It ain't so hard. Hiya!

You can do it with both, but the long knee socks give you more options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--YUTnA05ZU

Explaining your whatever

A ####ING PENCIL.

BABAYAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

nt

nt

It's about transmuter

They already can't duo and camo at the same time.

nt

Nt

Gr