To keep things more balanced could you please do the following:

For transmuters: move neuro from level 37 to 42

For assassins: move ground control from 24 to 42

To keep everyone happy:

For all: give edge points back for reaching certain levels so it can't be exploited.

If it was based on hours played/obs/exp etc. it could be exploited by some for example. Basing it on levels keeps it fair for everyone no matter how many hours they can play the game.

Twist if I can be so cheeky, you were the one to initially tell everyone how the edge point system worked. Perhaps you could initiate some solution to the ongoing edge point discussion.

My criterion is simple. Every build shapa managest to play naked and actually kill a lot of people is broken.

Currently I think this includes nagewaza assassin and azure monk.

Two separate posts in one evening asking for my opinion on the edge changes. I've held my tongue long enough.

First, your other stuff.

>To keep things more balanced could you please do the
>following:
>
>For transmuters: move neuro from level 37 to 42

Meh. I don't know of any level 37 transmuters that are tearing up the pk ranks. Yes, there are scary ones that show up now and then. But the game doesn't begin at hero.

>For assassins: move ground control from 24 to 42

Meh. See the thing above. Honestly, I don't see what all the fuss about ground control is, lately. You had a very powerful character (that took mine to school, FWIW) that got complete command denial on some characters a few times. I've had bash-spec-warriors that have achieved that a ton of times. I think the particular edge might need tweaking - anytime one edge out of a batch of mutually-exclusive ones is the automatic go-to for every character, I think something needs to be looked at. But I don't really think it's a huge deal.


Now, to your edge stuff:

>To keep everyone happy:
>
>For all: give edge points back for reaching certain levels so
>it can't be exploited.

As far as I know, any edgepoints awarded for reaching certain levels is still there. But I think it was only hero (or 47 for necros and 50 for orcs). Not sure what you're thinking of, here.

>If it was based on hours played/obs/exp etc. it could be
>exploited by some for example. Basing it on levels keeps it
>fair for everyone no matter how many hours they can play the
>game.

We already see people race to hero, though, and that isn't the overall goal of what we do, so...why would we give out edgepoints for reaching a certain level? Leveling is something everyone does, by default, and already has its own rewards (access to new class abilities, more hp/mana/mv, etc.)

>Twist if I can be so cheeky, you were the one to initially
>tell everyone how the edge point system worked. Perhaps you
>could initiate some solution to the ongoing edge point
>discussion.

Ok, so Rhyaldrin/Athioles asked me on the death thread for my most recent character what I think of the "new edge system" now that I've had a few leaders under it. I've been reticent to chime in. But what the hell.

First, I'm honestly fine with the edgepoints-for-pkwins going away. I mean, I'm like many others in that "More edgepoints=more better" but edgepoints-for-pkwins seems a bit like "The Rich get Richer" syndrome.

As to the loss of edgepoints for observation/exploration - I don't care for it. I understand the reasoning behind it all, but I don't care for it. I feel like observation and exploration are things that one can do with a character on CF when there's not much else to do. And yes, one can still observe and explore, sure. But if it isn't truly benefiting the character in any way, why bother?

When you've got a relatively long-lived character, and your skills are all perfected, and you log in with no enemies in PK, few people to RP with...you see to your "cabal duties" (raiding for enemy items, etc.), gather preps, and then what? Previously, for me, I'd go see about gaining some edge points via observation and exploration. I'd go to dangerous areas, solo, where I really had no business being, and seeing if I could luck through it.

One of my favorite things used to be to see just how low-level I could make it through the Tower of Trothon. I had a character that reached the 5th Circle of Hell at level 23 after finding a big bag of Obuluses (Obuli?) that someone had left in the Jade Mountains (nice full girdle of endless space, full of all kinds of preps).

That sort of thing is fun for me. However, others will use an OOC friend with a hero-level character that would have fine RP-reasons to help his lowbie, and the hero will tank his way through Trothon, so that the lowbie guy can get a bunch of edgepoints. Here we have the rule of "We can't have nice things because someone finds a way to ruin it."

So - how can we meet in the middle, here? How can we make observation/exploration still relevant to gaining edgepoints, WITHOUT making it so that having an OOC buddy run me through Trothon at level 25 makes my duergar warrior a tricked-out pking machine?

Well, I came up with a way. Split edgepoints into regular edgepoints and obs/exp edgepoints (hereafter called OEP). Regular edgepoints work just like they do now. OEP are gained from observation/exploration.

"Ok, but what does that do?"

Well, I also went through every single edge that is out there, and split them. Anything that aids PK directly (like pretty much every necro edge, for instance) is a regular edge. Edges like "seasoned traveler" and "Comprehend Animals" and "Leader" are obs/exp edges, and can only be taken by using OEP.

Yes, one can argue that almost any edge can affect PK (seasoned traveler, for instance, makes you able to hunt for pk a lot better, and perhaps escape it better) but I focused on "Does this edge help you in combat with PCs?" and if it was an obvious yes, left it as a normal edge. Some were judgment calls. Ones like "Smoke and Mirrors", for instance, where it doesn't affect in-combat but it sure makes it easier to sneak up on someone, were left as normal edges. In general I tried to err on the side of keeping it normal.

I ended up with 65 edges that would be available via OEP.

However, I don't know if it will ever get coded. I don't want to go into a lot of detail, but I will say that Scarabaeus is not the roadblock on it ever going forward. It is not really his cup of coding-tea.

So, there. You wanted to hear my thoughts, there's my thoughts. I did all of this contriving/sorting/etc. about 2 months ago. We'll see if we're ever able to get it coded.

For what it's worth, however, Natesthal had several edges, due to the following:
1. Obsessive bartering (for preps, etc.) and selling things. Pretty sure I maxed out on commercexp edgepoints.
2. Heroing.
3. Being tattooed.
4. Leadering.
5. Various immxp for RP such as the debate about booze with Malchazzar at the Inn.
6. Rolexp

That being said, there were plenty of edges I'd still have wanted to take. Making the change I've laid out would have allowed me to take a few of them.

And to be fair, saying "Edges are fine because a Twist-run-char had plenty of edges." doesn't hold water for me.

I'll reiterate my suggestion for observation/exploration:

Give points for each, but only up to a relatively low threshold. Maybe 15k for each.

Only make the points available as a character both ranks up and ages.

What this does:

1. If you haven't reached the 15k/15k thresholds, then there's some benefit to exploring and observing.

2. Those thresholds are low enough that I can be reasonably sure I'll hit them eventually without having to farm.

3. Gating the release of EP from observation/exploration based on level *and* hours played prevents someone from farming them all at alow rank and buffing out a low-ranking character *or* powering to hero in 25 hours, farming them, and having a bunch of nice edges on a 25-hour old character.

I'd do something similar with PK. Give EP, but with a very low cap. Maybe 10 PKs. Or 5 if you restrict it to solo kills.

I gotta ask, you guys have fun "exploring" the MUD with every char? Most of the guys I talked to had it scripted, is this what you want for CF? That's what will happen again.

It is a challenge for me to do it by myself. I never go after obs/explore by sitting on the Hamsah docks and waiting for boats to come in, or going through kobold's at level 1, or anything that would be scriptable.

I do things like go to Octagonal by myself because there isn't anything else to do, and see how much stuff I can look at (and maybe kill) without dying.

Unfortunately, you're right, the scripting would come right back. That's part of why I'd want to switch it so - ok, if you really are that lame that you do that, fine you get "wise recovery" or "vagabond" cheaper than other people. But you aren't getting Master of Nage Waza or Balanced Percussionist any easier than it currently sits.

In my opinion, the commonly scripted ones that don't have an element of danger (ie, Hamsah docks) shouldn't give edge points.

Limit to areas that are actually dangerous for that level and you can't really script it anyways (at least not without risk). I don't like the idea of limiting it to only certain types of edges, just because that adds another element of confusion to the playerbase (what do I have to do to get this edge?!?) that isn't really necessary.


But either way, is scripting really that big of a deal? Every invoker has at least had a set of triggers going for their spell practice. A good chunk of the playerbase spams defenses mindlessly. They're still policed somewhat, and if there isn't a real life player answering to prompts, off to ROTD they go.

Why should exploring be any different? I think this was a drastic fix to something that wasn't even a problem.

>In my opinion, the commonly scripted ones that don't have an
>element of danger (ie, Hamsah docks) shouldn't give edge
>points.

I'd be cool with that, though it's probably a fair amount of work.

>Limit to areas that are actually dangerous for that level and
>you can't really script it anyways (at least not without
>risk). I don't like the idea of limiting it to only certain
>types of edges, just because that adds another element of
>confusion to the playerbase (what do I have to do to get this
>edge?!?) that isn't really necessary.

I don't think it would be that confusing. We'd write a helpfile that would list all the edges that are obtainable via OEP. Guildmasters would list them separately when you discussed.

>But either way, is scripting really that big of a deal? Every
>invoker has at least had a set of triggers going for their
>spell practice. A good chunk of the playerbase spams defenses
>mindlessly. They're still policed somewhat, and if there isn't
>a real life player answering to prompts, off to ROTD they go.

Scripting isn't a big deal to me, no. As long as a player is actively there, "running the show" as it were, I have no issues with it at all.

>Why should exploring be any different? I think this was a
>drastic fix to something that wasn't even a problem.

I don't disagree.

Scripting isn't a big deal, but at that point there why not just give edge pts freely to everyone? There's no benefit for the game to reward people for scripting or looking at room desc's they've looked at thousands of times before.

I remember when edges were first pitched as "slight' advantages that you wouldn't otherwise have, unfortunately that's just not how edges played out because they can make or break builds.

I typically go for utilitarian edges anyway. I'm not a huge PvP kinda guy.

I would like to see orcs and Goblins get some sort of edge points for being in the grinning skulls. Not sure how though. They just lack any way to get them aside from level and roles and barter.

AFAIK goblins/orcs only lack edgepoint-gaining-paths that uncaballed/heralds lack - retrieval. Which, since they never lose any cabal powers that retrieval would restore...

Which means, basically, one decent edge in their lives.

I do it with all my characters, more than pk or rp. My guess is your friend's are an echo chamber. That and a lot of players left seem to be the ones addicted to pk only.

So maybe we have a difference in how we approach this, I've been playing CF on and off for 20+ years. I can usually only stomach exploring areas once... then I know the area.. then I'm *forced* to rehash that exploration with each subsequent character to game edge points so I can remain competitive. That's #### design and not how it should work.

That is, there are edges that currently nobody in their right mind would take for PK purposes (Keys to Success, for instance).

Trying to make edges like that available to people who *want* to do the exploration is what I was after.

Also, don't you feel like a lot of what you are "forced" to do with each character to remain competitive is like this? Skill perfection, for instance?

I find that if there's something I don't want to do (again) with a character, I just don't do it. I simply won't sit and work on skills as a fire giant, for instance, outside of doing it while leveling up. Yet if I miss a flurry in PK and die during the next 3 rounds, that's the choice I made, right?

For instance I'd go for maxing exp/obs again, and would get those niche edges noone takes because wow taking them doesn't actually diminish my ability to take direct combat-related edges.

>That is, there are edges that currently nobody in their right
>mind would take for PK purposes (Keys to Success, for
>instance).
>
>Trying to make edges like that available to people who *want*
>to do the exploration is what I was after.
>
>Also, don't you feel like a lot of what you are "forced" to do
>with each character to remain competitive is like this? Skill
>perfection, for instance?
>
>I find that if there's something I don't want to do (again)
>with a character, I just don't do it. I simply won't sit and
>work on skills as a fire giant, for instance, outside of doing
>it while leveling up. Yet if I miss a flurry in PK and die
>during the next 3 rounds, that's the choice I made, right?


Your suggestion would definitely help with that, if exploration/observation XP was used for the basic quality of life edges, I'd be down with that.

I think the problem with the skill gain comparison is that's always been there, Explore/OBSV XP were tacked on way after the fact which to me only added extra grind to the game.

I was already #### about mastering skills to begin with this just made things worse. THEN I found out people had lists of XP values for rooms given to them by imm contacts, so I got over that system pretty quickly.

But I do wholeheartedly like your idea.

Each type of exp should be tied to specific edge list. Commerce for stuff with trading and such. Exploration for survival. Observation for anti blindness, handle keys. Pk exp(win/loss) for pk related edges. Age for Stat related ages. Retrieval/defend/promotion for cabal exp. Immexp/roleexp for anything.

Many have given ideas, myself included, on game play how pk win/lose exp could be balanced.

Any improvement would be nice for taking lesser edges that would be a waste to take atm. I also like edges being able to be taken by explorers like myself who don't pk or cabal much.

>I can usually only stomach exploring areas once... then I know the area..

OR you AIM me to ask how to get to the red dragon from market square <3

drugs are a helluva drug

I played a conjurer once and now I am forced to play one again if I want to use elementals. That's ####! I used bash to kill someone once and now I have to do it again even though I experienced it once because this dude is flying, ####!

Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean others don't as well. Remember there are all types who enjoy all things so smashing other peoples fun stick just because you don't like it is kinda silly. You don't HAVE to explore just like I don't HAVE to PK people. You enjoy PK more, I enjoy it less. I enjoy exploring more, you enjoy it less. Why not just keep both and both be happy with what we got?

I get it man, you like reading doom descs.

This game would be so boring without them. I probably spent a good 60 hours or more exploring every nook and cranny of ktengs and loved it. Such a cool story there. I'm sure I am not alone in enjoying room descriptions or else we'd just have empty rooms in one area for death match style play... Pretty boring and lifeless if you ask me. The reason CF appeals to so many, I think, is the challenge and depth it brings to all three categorization of players. Role playing, player killing, and exploration. It has a really good mix of them all and it would lose something if you removed any one of them.

I get that it's enjoyable the first time. How about the 2nd? 3rd? 10th?

That's what you end up doing under a system that continues to reward observation/exploration past some base level. You end up looking at mobs and room items but not actually reading the text just because you've already done it before and you just want "credit" on your current character.

But I want to kill people, therefore I spam skills.

Same goes here. I don't want to farm obs/exp, but I want edges, therefore I farm obs/exp.

You're comparing apples and oranges, your skill gains reset each character, your area knowledge does not.

My knowledge of skill spamming doesn't reset either. But my obs/exp reset each character.

I get that skilling up on wraiths is enjoyable, but how about the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 10th time? You guys are seriously nuts if you are so damned one-dimensional in thought! I'm not saying that I well just explore every place piece by piece over and over, but I don't mind going back through from time to time as I forget things or sometimes find something I missed previously. Being rewarded for it is a nice benefit, especially for risky places. You don't HAVE to grind explore exp just like you don't HAVE to pk a lot, and just like you don't HAVE to perfect skills. You say the exploration part sucks but the others are ok when they are basically the same thing? Just play the game the way you want and let others play it the way they want and you'll have a lot more variety and interesting people playing. I say again that trying to enforce only YOUR play-style in the game will just make the game smaller and boring.

No, I don't enjoy doing rote exploration. That's the whole gist of what I proposed: make it so I don't feel like I stand to gain anything by rote exploration.

Low "caps" on the amount of EP you can extract from observation/observation remove the perverse incentive to bot it or do boring walk-throughs. Because I know I'm going to hit the cap anyway just from doing what I normally do without any special effort.

Someone who has less area knowledge and/or is less adventurous than I am, though, might need to make an effort to go out and actually explore. (Not to say I'm especially knowledgeable and/or adventurous).

"Releasing" the EP from observation/exploration based on game hours and rank remove the incentive to hit the cap as soon as possible so you can get all your observation/exploration related EP "up front" and take a lot of edges at a low rank.

You could get all 15k/15k at level 1 if you wanted, but you wouldn't get the full benefit from it until you hit, say, level 51 with 100 hours played.

I'd be down to make it where every 100 hours you get some edge points, incentivizing longer lived characters is something that would help the game.

I'm not sure I want to give any out "for free" purely based on aging unless it's at the far reaches of age. Here's how I might do it:

* 1 EP/1000xp for first 15k observation xp. (*)
* 1 EP/1000xp for first 15k exploration xp. (*)
* 2 EP/PK for first 10 solo PKs. (*)
* 1 EP/200xp for first 2k role xp.
* 5 EP for leader.
* 1 EP/50hr for hours played above 150, starting at 200.
* 1 EP/200xp for imm xp with no limit.
* 0 EP for tatoo, since getting it involves earning imm xp.

Scale the totals accordingly so that characters don't end up with too much EP. Optionally scale up/down individual EP rates to shift the importance of various sources.

(*) EP from these sources are only awarded once a character passes certain rank/hours milestones. The minimum milestone (rank vs. hours) is used. Milestones as follows:

Ranks (observation/exploration):
20: 5 EP
25: 7 EP
30: 9 EP
35: 11 EP
40: 13 EP
45: 15 EP

Hours (observation/exploration):
25: 5 EP
50: 7 EP
75: 9 EP
100: 11 EP
125: 13 EP
150: 15 EP

A character that farmed 15k/15k observation/exploration at level 1 then powered to hero in 30 hours would only have 5 EP (each) from observation/exploration. However, as he aged, the rest would eventually become available. Likewise, a character that ranked up to level 25 and level sat for 150 hours would only have 5 EP from each source. As he ranked up the rest would become available.

Ranks (PK):
20: 5 EP
25: 8 EP
30: 11 EP
35: 14 EP
40: 17 EP
45: 20 EP

Hours (PK):
25: 5 EP
50: 8 EP
75: 11 EP
100: 14 EP
125: 17 EP
150: 20 EP

A character that solo killed 10 people at level 15 derive any benefit from it until he was rank 25 with 25 hours played. If he level sat at rank 25 then he wouldn't derive any more benefit from his 10 solo kills until he started to rank again. Likewise, if he powered to hero in 30 hours he wouldn't get the full benefit from his PK-related EP until he had 150 hours.

It really just encourages playing the damn game!!!

I think it will make people sit at a sweet spot for their build to get those 10 solo kills and then go on playing the game. Doesnt matter that they dont get all the points right there and then, they will over time even if they cant land more solo kills later on which can make it worth it, especially if you play something that isnt great at landing kills.

Sure, you might think 10 solo kills is something anyone gets just playing the game. I can prove that is not true. I had a char who only landed 9 solo kills after age dying at 561 hours, spending 95% of that time caballed and participating in cabal wars.
Now, only 9 solo kills after 561 hours might be quite extreme, but it shows it has happened. I still believe that giving edge points for pk will just encourage chars like mine to do that bit of pk just to get the points, even if it wouldnt suit the chars rp.

The reality is that any mmorpg/mud design will be "exploitable" in so much as players will find ways to play that designers didn't originally intend or imagine. Generally, good designers tend to be ok with this - who cares if someone level sits for 10 pks, the point is that 10 isn't so much as to encourage long term sitting through mechanical advantages bestowed while still rewarding normal game play.

I really like that entire scheme, isildur!

First, that's a lot of effort when you aren't sure it'll even pan out. Secondly, I think this overall idea is a good one. I know many of my past characters that really enjoyed non-combat edges, some of them way more than some of the combat edge perks because they add to the character's versatility. I could certainly get behind this idea.

I've thought lately that a lot of useful edges now go unpicked almost always because there are limited EPs and more important, PK-useful edges to pick.

I have also wondered if there could be other ways to earn some of those edges, like seasoned traveler. I mean if you are a long lived character who has run the length of Thera a billion times, I'd say that qualifies you as a seasoned traveler. But even though its cheap its tough to spend the EPs on.

This is a good idea on how to accomplish that.

Just knowing that you hear the people and can see past all the #### to be able to acknowledge when there is a real issue/unbalance/whatever that should be, and more importantly COULD be addressed. That's freaking awesome you actually went through the edges like that. I hope this goes somewhere, because it's a really good idea. Thanks again.

-cheers

and is thus sort of irrelevant in terms of impact.

The main problem of course being that the game feels broken
without access to edges in the way (fun and not tedium) we were
used to for years. I have yet to see any proposal on how to fix that.

Look at Isildur's schemes (hilariously more complicated than yours)
that are a complete waste of time in terms of fixing what really matters.

Those edges you've deemed PK-related, are the ones that make
creative build-crafting possible, let the playerbase fix perceived
imbalances in how the classes are designed and in many cases make
entire builds possible to play (in terms of making them more streamlined/fun
and reducing tedium). Yet all these possibilities have been placed
behind a lock in the interests of what? I've yet to read an argument that
makes sense from the IMM side. You have repeated "the rich get
richer" so many times you may actually believe it now.

It's funny how these things go yet you can't argue with numbers.

There is currently access to edges.

You just can't get ALL of them anymore. Which is what they are trying to tell us is how the system was intended to be. You get to pick a few and that's it. That's why they are edges. If everyone of the same build had all the same ones they might as well just be part of the build. Now there is some selectivity to the whole thing that makes each character unique. Took me awhile to see that and get used to it.

The nice thing about Twist's idea is that there is a whole pile of edges that no one will ever take in the current system because of the opportunity cost of selecting other better, more relevant PK-orientated edges. His idea lets you get some of those as well.

Listen -flso, I had no problem with the system as it was. Having characters with 20+ edges was fun for me, and I didn't mind that others could as well.

Other Imms disagree(d). They took/take my viewpoint (on this particular topic) as that of a powergame-y player. And they have a fair point, as many of my (more memorable) chars are generally power builds of some kind (sword giant, elf STSF, scion mummy, etc.)

So while yes, my IDEAL would be "put edges back the way they were when they first went in" you're simply not going to see that.

And there are a ton of edges that, like TJHuron above me says, simply won't ever get taken in today's edge schema.

My "solution" looks to address that. If I can't have things the way I want them, maybe I can make it so most all edges are at least worthy of consideration. Currently things are not that way.