I'll be short. For years there were tension and sometimes total misunderstanding between imms and players who have left because of the changes. You were constantly shifting game into the way of "imms controlling everything, players decide nothing". The human factor here, for years, played a bad role. We had (and have, don't even try to deny it) favoritism, and only players who are "good" now have a chance to build their characters (edgewise). CF became a tiny masturbation sandbox for immortals and their pets.

I offer a cardinal solution (you love such solutions). Stop playing immortals. Remove ANY immexp and other imm rewards that directly affects gameplay and characters power. Limit your interference with only decorative rewards, such as lastnames, titles and tattoos. Punish any immortal that keeps sticking his nose into characters lives. Make everything else (canal leader poisons) automated and based on the game mechanics only, without appointing leaders by someone who thinks too much of themselves.

I assure you, this would change CF a lot. Fair play, fair game for everyone, fair chances for everyone. It's what CF is totally lacking and the main reason why most of players have left. Stop shooting into your own legs, and just let us play.

I wrote this as a reply to Isildur, but after finishing, I decided to write it into a separate subthread.

Earlier, there were more players and it weren't so noticeable when imms were interfering. Yes, Cador slew new too, couple if times, and I didn't mean it - actually, it was kinda cool and real godlike. Shokai have cut tongue of my character and made a necklace of it (and made him mute), and it was funny too. I don't mind that kind of imm interference.

But then many sad things have happened, imms got caught on cheating, on boosting their ooc friends, on favoritism, and a lot of players have left. Not you, but I know at least six or seven good players who left because of it.

Later, immexp and edges were introduced as a legalization of the character boosting, and also been abused, especially by raybaer. more players were leaving because they felt that they are playing not only vs players, but also vs imms behind those players. Some stayed, they've put a lid on roles and rp and went CS mode (Alex for instance), because they knew that no matter how hard they are trying, their enemies would be still overboosted.

Would Alex RP if he would know that he, guaranteed, would get a reward similar to everyone else? 100%. If there would be the solid, written down rules about rp rewards, he definitely would. Why he doesn't RP? Because he believed that it is futile. And he is correct: currently, he would earn about zero immexp even if he would try hard. While players who plays at the same time with imms and knows how to reach them would keep earn thousands of immexp (yes, I've checked recent PBFs).

Yes, for some players the current reward system worksv very well. They can't complain and would support it here, and keep disseminate me and my posts for the sake of the current reward system that they are abusing. They are active in game and on the forum, and they will keep playing and earning rewards. But everyone else, besides this tiny core, won't. So, CF is a game for the few people. Again, I am sure it is exactly because of the current reward system that is totally unfair to the mass (i.e. casual and regular players of the medium RP skills, newbies, foreigners).

Some says "try harder", but for many players it's usually impossible. And not everyone want to play pure mudsex game. There are a lot of different player types (see Bartle's types), such as achievers, killers, explorers, socializers, and recently more players were classified, such as grinders and etc). But CF reward system is aimed ONLY on socializers now.

And here is the problem: MUDs are the type of game for hardcore players, usually old-school players. Usually, socializers prefers to play the different kind of games (casual games mostly). So, aiming rewards on the smallest group of players in MUDs were the critical mistake that drove most of the other player types away. Yes, there ARE exceptions, or combination of preferences, and yes, and they are curly playing CF. But others simply can't.

Other types of played won't enjoy the game that is made not for them, where they will be always behind: they won't get rewards for activity they like the most (PK, nite explore, achievements, quests) AND their enemies will over and over gain rewards for activities they like (rp). Again, the current reward system in CF PENALIZES all other playertypes and rewards the smallest part of MUDs playertypes

This is why I insist on writing solid, transparent rules about roles and RP, limiting rewards for those activities (such as cap on EP for roles) and reviving rewards for other activities, for EVERY playertype.

Part of your argument is that people aren't even *trying* in the first place because they have convinced themselves its useless. To me, and many other people I am sure, that certainly does result in a response of "You get what you give."

I keep circling back to the fact that you keep talking about big rewards as if its really a thing anymore. Its really not. Some of the most recent "big rewards" that I can think of:

Tanzer getting a quest form

Kycue being given the hippo (tier 2 water) as an Air/Defense shifter

Muuksube was given a custom exotic leader weapon with detect chaos

Congee was given the Balance of the Sisters legacy


I am sure there might be a couple more that happened but Im pretty sure thats the extent of rewards that went beyond the scope of a cabal edge or a RC win within the last few years.

No, no, I am taking not only about big rewards. I'm talking about everything: immexp, edge points, and lack of obvious system that world motivate players to play, instead of demotivate them. See how many writes, "I've got no immexp in 400 hours". The current system is disappointing expectations, that is what I'm talking about.

Take a look:

"The most volatile group of people is that of the socialisers. Not only is it highly sensitive to the number of killers, but it has both positive and negative feedback on itself, which amplifies any changes. An increase in the number of socialisers will lead to yet more socialisers, but it will also increase the number of killers; this, in turn, will reduce the number of socialisers drastically, which will feed back into a yet greater reduction. It is possible for new socialisers to arrive in large enough quantities for a downward spiral in numbers not to be inevitable, but it is unlikely that such a system could remain viable in over a long period of time."

This is exactly what happened to CF. It was written down by Bartle back in 1996 and, should staff (of that time) educate themselves instead of thinking they are Gods in real life, probably things would go differently now.

It's a good read and you can find it here: http://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

This somewhat sums my post, why the game is designed for the small group and why it won't grow until it's fixed (and it's not hard to fix and requires not that much coding).

You're saying all current players are socializers, but then cite the example where all socializers have left the game because of excessive amount of killers. If that was the case with CF, then the "last players remaining" would be anyone BUT socializers.

I'd say, CF is one of the rare muds that actually has all four groups in close influence, and killer/achiever archetypes are closely mixed because in CF, "points" and bragging rights are tied primarily to PK success.

Bartle is talking about spirals. Killers are killing socializers, they complain and leave, Jules gets less meat and leave. Admins tuning the game in favor of complaining mass, and some of them come back. Killers have fresh meat, rinse, repeat. With the each circle situation gets worse and worse. At the end, only most hardcore and addicted players stays, or those who can abuse the current system (favoritism). Killers and other types can't play because of the current mechanics, and socializers see the low online and going to the other games.

About the second post of your comment. Let's judge by the current result. MUDs that are designed for all Bartle's groups are on the top at topmudsites, and their online is x100.

In my opinion, CF is the best MUD by it's atmosphere and mechanics, but at the moment it can't compete with other MUDs because of its reward system.

A handful of those "top muds" are pay to win or pay to play type muds. They are also ones that are owned and operated by gaming companies as well as doing things like requiring registration and other assorted hurdles and headaches. Any game that has tiers of membership is going to have a built in "favoritism". If your argument to that is that anyone can choose to buy the diamond pass or whatever, then my counter point is that anyone can choose to invest heavily into a character here.

I'm not dismissing your statement about there being lots of folks online with those other muds, but online # doesn't always mean that there are more *active* people. It could be that they allow multi-charing or that PC's even when they "quit" don't disappear from the count or some other artificial inflation of count.

I've played some of those MUDs and can't say there are "bots online". Even if there are 10% of bots, they still have a way, WAY more players. If you'll check their forums, mostly you'll see healthy and positive community. Compare it with CF community: extremely toxic, angry, hateful, unsatisfied. I also believe it's so pityful because if injustice, conspiracy theories and envy, mostly.

I'm not sure, but perhaps you require too much from players. Plank is too high, and casual players can't survive in such environment.

NT

Let me preface this by saying I think it would probably be a terrible idea, but:

What if CF required registration, mandated one character per player, and charged a flat fee of $5/year for unlimited use.

Or, possibly, let unregistered players play, but make it so they can't pick up any limited gear and/or join a cabal.

This is technically "pay to play", but the "pay" is so small that anyone should be able to afford it and you can't "juice" your character further by paying more.

At this point, I suspect having to pay would be the last straw for some folks. Just wondering what the net effect would have been if this policy had been instituted way back when.

Three are such MUDs, with 1-3k online with exactly such system, from what I gathered.

B - balance.

IMO, over time CF has skewed toward having more "killers" and fewer "socializers". But that's just my perception; could be wrong.

Oldfag's commitment to the notion that some players just can't get a fair shake seems pretty impenetrable. Because he (and others) believe this, they don't bother doing the things they'd need to do to get rewarded. So (shocker) they don't get rewarded.

Maybe every once in a while one of the "tries" and doesn't get rewarded, which they then take as evidence of the conspiracy against them. This ignores the fact that plenty of other people not in their set of supposedly-blacklisted players also "try" and aren't rewarded. Because that's just the new reality with fewer edge points and fewer staff to hand out imm exp.

Look at the numbers. They are the best prove and indicator of the situation. You may have any theory in the world, but the current playerbase shows something else.

Please elaborate. I don't see anything in "the numbers" to support your claim that the staff plays favorites and that that's the cause of a smaller player base.

This fag says he knows 6 people besides himself who would come back if we had a time machine to go back 15 years.

So if we assume he's thinking of 3 people and doubling the number to (in his head) make the argument sound better, and take into account two out of three of THOSE people actually stopped playing due to RL or finding other games, then his suggested changes net us two (count em, TWO!) people who would play again.

Then all we have to do is come up with a foolproof way to kill the loved ones of the people who would leave if his changes were put in place, and inform the player base of the consequences.

Boom.

+2 players. CF returns to a golden age.

It's really basic science and logic if you think about it.

I've elaborated it above, just re-read and try to understand.

The game is designed for the group of players that won't play until there are tons of players online and who would leave if there are hardcore PK events in the game (and CF IS hardcore PK game). So the game mechanics itself is working against online.

And vice versa, groups that CAN play the current mechanics and would enjoy it are being penalized and threatened as the lower cast of players. They have no rewards fire their efforts and even if they PK too much they would be frowned upon (and get their enemies overboosted). Maybe it's not happening now, but it's what happened earlier.

Really I don't understand how it's possible to not see and understand such obvious things and argue with that. It's same as ignoring fact that the playerbase is tiny now and that the current mechanics can't and won't increase it until they are fixed.

You were constantly shifting game into the way of "imms controlling everything, players decide nothing".

We had (and have, don't even try to deny it) favoritism, and only players who are "good" now have a chance to build their characters (edgewise).

...the main reason why most of players have left

gr

While you came off in a rather rude way that is anything but constructive or productive I'll go ahead and give my thoughts since a tiny bit of what you said resonates with me.

I've always dreamed that religion in CF would flow better if Immortals had High Priests that could do partial empowerment to lower levels with the Imms doing final empowerment.

I'd also like Leaders or other various well established chars to be able to get certain amounts of exp they can give to other players they had memorable encounters with that would be like player granted immexp. Imagine an awesome fight you had with the drillmaster that ended with you dying, but he gives you some playerexp for a fun fight or that renowned explorer giving you some playerexp for helping him figure out a puzzle in the game. Would be a lot of fun though perhaps possibly abusable? Maybe you can only give the playerexp once to each unique player ever or so often or something.

There are other aspects I would love to see more in the hands of players so I don't completely disagree with what you tried to relay in your post but you did it in such a way that it is hard to see past the attacks. Further, I really do enjoy immteraction and the prospects of rewards from immortals. I would prefer it if religions actually had even more depth and possibilities than less as you suggested.

Yes, let's give the players powers that they would use to boost their Skype friends. I'm sure players like Beront our Jalim would be happy.

What you offer is exactly what I am against and what I call "unfair system" that causes cheating and favoritism, while screwing other players and drives them away.

This is why we don't want to talk to you. Someone actually sucked up your #### & answered with a different OPINION than yours. Which you immediately attack. Now if this wasn't an OPINION based thread which you started, but a fact based one. You might skate through with that. But ffs if you want ppl to listen you also need to. Also drink a little more bleach pl

By your logic we should get rid of ap charges and even looting I guess since Skype buddies can abuse that. Just have everyone start with 500hp and 20hit and dam and let them fight without any loot or leveling... Then it would be fair enough for you and no possibility of unfair play? Oh, but then people could still group so still unfair... Guess the game needs to go to match maker battles? Sorry but your fair doesn't sound fun to me. It's funny because, as I said, I do partially agree with you to some degree and even mentioned your concern about possible abuse, but you seem so bent on being disagreeable and closedminded that whatever points you have are being lost.

Don't twist my words. I said limit/cap imm rewards to remove the very possibility of favoritism and unfair gameplay. Don't take it to the extreme.

Real impactful mechanical rewards simply have not existed in years. No extra virtues or legacies, I can't recall the last quest form, and only one current character has quest skills and they are on a high RP explore type and are just an element resist and malison tgat their class can't naturally exploit. Oh and there is an elf Druid that's mostly a pacifist.

The issue of imm tilting is pretty much extinct.

While there are such possibility, I really have no desire to play (and currently I'm in another country where I cannot play physically). That may happen at any moment, and for some reason that always happened to my enemies when I played. Probably to balance powers, but I always felt that were to piss me off.

So it would be yet another disappointment to have 600 hours character with zero immexp while there world be other players with 200 hours, quest spells, 5-6k of immexp and so on.

By the way this is not just my feelings and expectations, but I'm rather talking for those who have left because of the current reward system.

gr

I've been around a long time and I can assure you that toxic players have run far more people off than Imms.

I also say this as someone who has never had any significant Imm rewards and very rarely gets any Imm xp on my characters. I've never had a problem with any Imm because I realize I get out of my characters what I put into them, and I'm fine with that.

You remind me of the saying that the only common denominator in all your failed relationships is you.

Is this Warren trying to poison the well and make another substantial Imm react poorly and leave?

I actually very much enjoy the current set of imms. They've been very kind and willing to discuss issues.

Agreed, just simply listening to our opinions and ideas for adjustment to make the game more fun for the people that plays is huge. Whether or not anything gets changed, just being open to consider it makes it worth while. Being dismissed without a second thought though seems to have it's place, it apparently kept every random bum from trolling the forums.

Though what better way to bitch then create an account, and write in semi-broken English to make people think you are some pissed off former player from Russia or some other country.

I can see no better use of time then to create alt forum accounts to bitch about Imms ruining CF in a semi-coherent fashion.

Do you not see the words in front of you? literally EVERYONE is against you on this. No one feels the same way you do and I am sorry that you're so misguided that you think your going to force some sort of "revolution" by acting like a nut job.

The current IMMs are doing their best to run a game... A GAME, that they enjoyed playing so much that they volunteered their time to try and help make it better. They have no obligation to continue to do this. No pay, no shiney rewards, just assholes like you bitching at them CONSTANTLY in a tone of "drunken child" about how horrible they are for trying to improve something so that YOU can have some fun! You selfish prick.


Imms. I apologize for language and truly hope assholes like this don't get you down.

>literally EVERYONE is against you on this.

I've skipped everything past those words. Who are those "everyone"? Favorits who feel comfortable to play the current meta? Newbies who have no idea what is going on? Or impotents who can't do #### and bitching against PK rewards? Who the hell are you talking about? Wake up, everyone has LEFT, the sea is the pond now. Nobody supports this idea because they had enough long ago.

You rail against CF Imms involvement (which has consistently been a part of CF since inception) as if you aren't among the impotent little people who can't do ####.

You make a choice to invest your time into CF. If you don't like it, don't play it. If you do, you're accepting the terms on which it is run. Imms volunteer their time just like you do, and the sooner you and others like you strip this illusion that they somehow work for you or the players the better off you'll be. Imms try to steer CF in the best way they can, but they don't owe you, me or any other player or contributor to CF a thing. Your time is no more valuable than their own.

If you actually want to speak constructively about improving CF, try to do so in a manner where people could actually take it moderately seriously.

If you want to play CF, play CF.

Otherwise, just leave CF to the Imms and their pets as you see it.
You and they will be happier for it.

>If you don't like it, don't play it. If you do, you're accepting the terms on which it is run.

Read what did you write. Read what did you write! There are sheeps, plankton, and this is their mentality. That's your choice to be that, but not mine.

I care about CF and I want it to become the better place for the mass, not just for 50 people. Some prefers to be the big fishes in a small pond, I prefer to be the small fish in a giant sea.

I wrote why a lot of players has left. It's the same reason why some players like Alex never bothered to RP our write the role - because it's futile for vast majority of the players.

CF turned into the dumb mudsex chat for procrastinators with some 3leet arpeers who gets all the cream, while other players are nothing but decorations for those kewl guys. And that's ####ing wrong. Everyone skulls have their chances and fair rewards for TONNS OF THE HOURS they contribute. This it's possible only in the objective game. And game won't ever be objective while there are "Gods" who decide who are good and deserves rewards and who are not.

You know what they say about glass houses?


Stay the ffffffffffffff7ck outta the kitchen

Go away. Don't come back.

There's nothing else I can really say to someone who says they care so much about something so trivial as CF, but at the same time is so utterly incapable of seeing the very flaws in everything they say or even understanding what CF actually is.

People like you love to claim you're for the good of CF, but what you're really for is wanting the game changed to favor how you think it should be played, with the added maturity of slinging insults and nonsense at any one who disagrees.

That sort of mentality in a person is something I just pity.

Lucky for me, I can walk away and not give this a second thought. But I have no doubt you'll keep posting, either to me or elsewhere. I hope it gives you whatever it is you're looking for.

As much as it's difficult to determine where to draw the line on the amount of name-calling that's going on in this thread, I've deleted a section that was little more than name-calling on both sides.

Given how obnoxious this forum software is to deal with, I'm as likely to be tempted to just lock and/or nuke the entire thread if I have to deal with it further.

(I almost nuked it trying just to delete this portion, so it's more likely I'll nuke it accidentally anyways)

If we're going to have the discussion, let's at least do what we can to have constructive comments & replies.

From my side, I'll try to ignore deconstructive posts.

To help shape the game towards his own vision like other imms have. I'm currently considering the goal of imming and help with coding eventually because I decided instead of complaining I should put forth something useful. As they have said in the past, you want to make a change then apply to imm and work towards it. It looks like several people are currently taking those steps recently so could be some good stuff coming down the next couple years.

Read the posts. All of them from anyone save yourself. I don't have to argue with you, the truth is there.


You have been led to the water, it is not my fault if you refuse to drink it.

If you hate what CF is this much, why are you here either playing or spending this much time creating drama on the forums? What this excessive posting (essentially spamming) is doing is probably having the exact opposite affect of what you are trying to accomplish if you are genuinely trying to be helpful.

I would also suggest that if you are really trying to be helpful that you open up the hearing the idea of others instead of just covering your ears and replying Lick more butt when someone disagrees with you.

Not every idea is a good one, and not every idea is a bad one. If its impossible to have a legitimate back and forth discussion with someone then suddenly no matter how much potential merit their ideas have, you are almost forced to write them off as bad.

If I would hate CF I wouldn't post and wouldn't care about the situation.

But I always loved CF and I still dream that CF will become what it once were, before some smartass came to destroy what Valg and others were creating for years. And no, I'm not fanboy of Valg, I didn't like him as a person, but his contribution is amazing.

So calm down, stop bitching and try to see the picture from someone else point of view, instead of covering your ears. You've killed playerbase, now it's a good time to admit it, until it's too late.

Douche.

No doubt that's the world record, hurry up and apply to the Guinness. Pity you've missed 150 online before.

This is a perfect example of you being the problem, not part of the solution. I am attempting to engage you in a discussion, you are not engaging in a discussion. If you *actually* want to try and help you should act like an adult and have a discussion about it, including being open to the reality that your own ideas aren't the best ones.

But what could I rely to you when all that you have said is "dude, how dare you to have opinion different from mine"?

I've explained why the current system isn't working. You have the FACTS that players have left and PB have decreased to the minimum. Yet you shrug those facts off and telling me to be opened, turning discussion from its origin to my humbly persona.

I really don't want to fight and I really want a constructive discussion. I have no goal to offend you or offend the staff. But what I wrote is a very uncomfortable thing and automatically made me the bad guy.

Come on, think about the initial post. All that I'm saying is to remove imms rewards that ARE subjective and destructive to the playerbase and community. Those rewards ARE bringing favoritism, it DOES exist in CF. It gives birth to envy and negative relations between players and community. It brings disappointments and when someone wrote 20 chapters of role and after 400 hours got 400 immexp, it DOES drive players away when they read PBF of players like Gaspare. Yes, he was cool, and should be rewarded, but gap between such players and everyone else is just too huge. And this also drives players away.

So just remove it. Make transparent rules how to get rewards (edge points, leaders, etc), same for everyone. Make the game fair and goals possible to everyone, like in any successful game. That's all I'm asking for.

See, the fundamental issue is you present your case like you are right and anyone who isnt you is an idiot. You even resort to calling literally every single person who responds to disagree with you an imm pet or asking them to lick butt for titles.

You say there are FACTS that players have left and PB has decreased. Other players pointed out FACTS that players are returning and the PB is increasing. Both are factual statements and you only are willing to acknowledge your own as a reality, that isn't productive in of a discussion.

At no point in these posts responding to you have I even attempted to dismiss your claims that the system can be improved. What I have tried to do is point out how bad your current method for trying to help is. To which your near constant response is to just throw up your arms at complain that I am not telling you that you are right. Thats also not productive for a discussion.

I will even go as far as to say the simple fact that you are arguing with every single person who replies to you makes it super difficult to think that you are actually even trying to help and are instead just looking for a way to pass the time.

What is funny is that he is largely arguing (or throwing a fit) for the same points that most everyone else has been discussing in these recent posts.

Aside from the removal of RC rewards, which have already been mostly nerfed from what I can tell (a couple average edges for a win).

Player driven character development in PK edge points is exactly what he wants.

Funny.

Why are you switching discussion on me? I see order facts. "PB is increasing" is a seasonal effect because of the NY holidays. I'll be glad if I'm wrong, we'll see. Maybe it's a result of Umiron's departure (quite possible, he drove many players away).

But again, let's get back to the initial post. I said something that hurts current staff and community who are comfortable in the current meta, because everyone else has left already.

I wrote about unfairness due to the subjectiveness (not because imms are bad but because imms are people too). And you totally skipped it as well. Because admitting that world hurt your ego (no offense, I have nothing against ego, it's part of each of us).

I'm saying that the game reward system must be fair to everyone, and you have skipped that too. Do you not agree that the good, balanced game should threat everyone the same? Do you believe that a game may be successful when there are foggy rewards given by humans for unknown reasons without any rules, in different amounts? Can you imagine LoL, WoW, Hearthstone or any other good and balanced game having such system?

Lastly, why are you fighting against the fairness? We had 150 people online earlier, when there were almost no rewards (cabal leaders and that's it). And the more imms were interfering players, the lower became online. It is the long-term fact and I dare you just to presume such possibility and think "what if that annoying asshole right?".

And please don't switch on me again. I accept everything you said about me, and it doesn't really matters in this thread.

I also haven't acknowledged it because so far, you aren't worth engaging in a discussion. But I will address your points here so that I am doing my part:

1- You claim unfairness due to imms being people. At the end of the day, everyone is being judged by the same collective of imms. So the same people are involved for everyone, I don't know how to make it more fair.

2- The reward system is very fair. You put in more quality effort and you are rewarded for it. I cannot think of many (if any) examples of a character that was universally liked that was not reward. Just because a player believes they deserve more rewards than they got doesn't mean they were treated unfairly.

3- I think you are over simplifying the reduction in players and trying to skew it in favor of what you believe is the problem. Imms have always been involved in lots of things. They were involved when there were 150 people online. They were involved when they were less. One of the biggest differences between then and now is the abundance of other games. I also think you have a horrible inaccurate perception of just how "fair" things used to be back when there were all the players online.

4- One of the main reasons I mention your approach is because it does matter in this thread. Your approach is a big part of why pretty much everyone has been dismissing your posts. If you can manage to shift that a bit then it would go a long way in adding credibility to your idea/opinion.

That's better, many thanks.

>1- You claim unfairness due to imms being people. At the end
>of the day, everyone is being judged by the same collective of
>imms. So the same people are involved for everyone, I don't
>know how to make it more fair.

Humans are limited and having their preferences, subconscious, mood and a lot of other factors that makes this ideal vacuum system flawed. It involves luck, time coincidence and if some imm had sex tonight, or he got fired today. This system is absolutely not transparent, rules differs for everyone which turns it unfair. Some players may offend you on the forum and should you recognize their pattern in game, you (our other imms) may screw them subconsciously, not because they are bad guys. Such system cannot be fair by definition.

>2- The reward system is very fair. You put in more quality
>effort and you are rewarded for it. I cannot think of many
> if any) examples of a character that was universally liked
>that was not reward. Just because a player believes they
>deserve more rewards than they got doesn't mean they were
>treated unfairly.

So you believe, but what is measure of quality? Subjective opinion. As long it is something from the part 1, it cannot be fair. Fair is when you formulate standards and rules, and players knows them and they can be measured and achieved. So instead of trying to fix it, just remove it and make it not affecting gameplay. Reward with immexp, titles, lastnames, tattoos, but make them just decorative, not boosting players stats and powers. They will be still valuable and desired, but not unfair. Is it that bad that you wouldn't be able to boost some players that you think are better than others? You still may run quests, events and etc, with programmed, transparent rewards.

>
>3- I think you are over simplifying the reduction in players
>and trying to skew it in favor of what you believe is the
>problem. Imms have always been involved in lots of things.
>They were involved when there were 150 people online. They
>were involved when they were less. One of the biggest
>differences between then and now is the abundance of other
>games. I also think you have a horrible inaccurate perception
>of just how "fair" things used to be back when there were all
>the players online.

Yes, they were involved. When they began chances toward more affecting players, and game became unfair, players began to leave. I remember that time, I've experienced it. The more foggy CF were becoming, the more players were leaving. Yes, there were involvements (I've got the "charge weapon" spell fist in the game), but they weren't affecting parts that much as now.

I suppose the disconnect is you want "fair" to be transparent so its possible to min/max the aspects of it. I want "fair" to be consistent, which it is.

The measure of quality does have variance, the standards for a good align char are different than the standards of an evil. A good dwarf is held to a different standard as a neutral dwarf. There is no one size fits all quality standard that can be applied beyond successfully playing a role that impacts the game in a positive way. A positive impact can be measured in a few different ways, but even then its pretty easy to know what that is for anyone who is concerned about the overall quality of the game.

One of the biggest draws for the majority of the players has been the fact that their character CAN get special rewards from the imms. I think removing this feature, even though it does have an impact on the "fairness" of the game, would be an even bigger detriment than the removal of EP for PK. That being said, the number of "big ticket" rewards that have been handed out in the last handful of years is pretty slim, I would daresay there have been less than 5 characters who got a reward that made much difference.

You fear that the players would leave if they would lose immlove. And probably you are right, the current playerbase is playing partially because of this. At least core of it is playing for that reason, no doubt. Assassin with sftsf? Sure, why not.

But you have no idea how many played has left because of that ####. Once I've left for a couple of years after Baerinka and few others boosted my enemies to such extreme that it was just not fun to fight them. It was simply unfair and ugly.

But I'm not saying you should remove immlove, I'm saying make it decorative. Strip ability to boost your favorites. You did great with limit to the role exp - make it the same, add a limit to immexp edgewise. Make lastname appears automatically and write down rules what shall players do to achieve it. Let the players decide whom they want to be leaders of the cabals by voting (it works well in Empire, it can work anywhere else), and give them ability to downvote inactive or flawed leaders, and this would be fair system.

Again, I'm for the solid rules if play that exclude subjectiveness which brings a lot if negative things (way more than positive), not against imm presence. And also you world have more time to develop the game, instead of playing the almighty Olympic gods (they didn't end well too, it's also a good historical example why that system won't work)

We the staff are pretty GD awful right now in terms of even acknowledging players, let alone giving them rewards. You seem to have an opinion rooted in the past instead of the current dynamic. It does not discredit your opinion, but it does reveal that you are a bit out of touch with how things are going.

Based on a bunch of your commentary in the threads, I assume you played Quinsa. If that is the case, then this whole thing takes a slight turn. If you did not play Quinsa, then its not relevant to detail the rest of the line of thinking.

Back in the days of 20+ active IMMs if you were getting ignored it sucked balls.

But when there are like 3-6 IMMs who have 1-3 hrs to play a day, yeah, #### falls through the cracks.

Why I always "liked" RayBaer, because #### what you heard, she was there, interacting, for like 12 hrs a day.

Your are right, I'm not playing for some years. And no, I'm not Qinsa but this is a good example of what non-transparent, human based system can do. If mechanics would be automated, he wouldn't have that disappointment and meltdown, and a good player wouldn't leave the game. But he (or she) got nuked by the humans, and that felt unfair to him, and he got offended.

The line of thinking I was going with is that Quinsa was a character who was not rewarded, but was also a powerful/successful in pk character. The problem is that the character was a detriment to the mud as a whole, including being their own worst enemy in terms of what led to their meltdown.

The player was playing their character, and doing it pretty well. The issue was that the way said character was played was pretty horrid as a Tribunal, which is what led to their subsequent removal from the Spire. The player then opted to utterly destroy the very small bit of RP that they were using to have an epic level whine fest over being "treated unfairly" despite being given way more wiggle room than they should have in terms of breaching cabal dogma and the sort.

It is very possible to play a character and their role well and still be "punished" for other facets of said character. No matter how good of a role it is or how well someone is playing it, you still need to abide by cabal dogma when youre in a cabal or you run the risk of being booted. Sadly most of our players are quick to cry foul even when their punishment is completely RP driven.

I totally agree here, but he wouldn't have the whinefest if not the "bad imms kicked him out and ruined his life", but if that would be made by the system. He broke laws, system caught it and he got punished. If he would know what not to do, and he would know that the system works and how it works, there wouldn't be problem at all.

I mean, in first case he made imms bad and whined. In second case he would have no one to blame but himself, and he wouldn't leave.

Also one of the most frequent whine on pbf is "why I didn't get immexp as a leader with 400 hours and solid RP, while <name here> got tonns of immlove and extra legacy in 100 hours?".

I agree with Destuvius in that, the chance of being rewarded by an Imm for a good job roleplaying, or maybe snagging a good PK in an uphill battle, or rolecontests and the like, is a big draw for me.

You keep saying you want balance on the field for everyone, and while Imm judging is going to be subjective (every character is different, it's just a fact of life), It's still nice to be rewarded. And yes, most rewards these days have been small and just for flavor, mostly.

The whole making the playing field even/fair, that's part of where this whole great EP debate is coming from. What some people prefer, or think is more fair, etc..

You think you have some good idea, okay, let's hear them. Try and put them to use in the current big debates we are already having. You just might have the solution we've been waiting for, who knows.

>And yes, most rewards these days have been small and just for flavor, mostly.

Okay, if so, let's legalize it! I'm not playing because I'll know that I won't ever get same rewards as some of the favorite players. So why would I waste time if their builds would be stronger? Yes, I would still defeat most of them (I daresay I'm one of the top PKllers in CF), but I would still have a bad taste. I had such experience many years ago, when I've destroyed cabal full if boosted players and became imms most hated character. Rewarded with the dirty titles, while they got tons of power ups and quest spells/third virtues/legacies just to fight me. And I don't want such experience again.

If everyone would be on the same ground, that wouldn't ever happened. Few years ago some players tried to fight favorites, but at the end most of them left (your can't really fight imms who can do whatever they want).

I really think that rules must be for everyone, imms included, and rewards must be regulated and limited. You says they are just for the flavor now - great, let's put a cap on it and they would remain flavour. And other rewards can all be automated, with the solid guide how to achieve them.

For instance, lastname can be given after reaching some milestones, such as combo of age, explore exp and cabal experience (not exactly those requirements, it's just an example). Same may be done with the title - add requirements, and when they are met, immortals may grant them.

Cabal leaders may be chosen by the system and other players may be post of it (as I've wrote to Dest above). Everything may be regulated and automated, but it doesn't exclude immlove.

If by subjective you mean(in general) well rp'd solid pk role players? Then you're absolutely correct. If seeing others with more shinies & loot than you have makes you frustrated it's your competitive side coming through. Normally this makes you try harder. Not beg for a participation trophy. Hello kitty Happy fun land is behind you homie. Go find something else.

>I wrote about unfairness due to the subjectiveness (not because imms are bad but because imms are people too). And you totally skipped it as well. Because admitting that world hurt your ego (no offense, I have nothing against ego, it's part of each of us). <

You really didn't. You basically said "#### the IMMs they are cheaters". Any actual point you had was lost in the message.

>I'm saying that the game reward system must be fair to everyone, and you have skipped that too. Do you not agree that the good, balanced game should threat everyone the same? Do you believe that a game may be successful when there are foggy rewards given by humans for unknown reasons without any rules, in different amounts? Can you imagine LoL, WoW, Hearthstone or any other good and balanced game having such system?<

All those games don't treat players equal, you realize that right? Players who join guilds/play a ton/etc all get more benefits in the game than someone who plays 2 hrs a week.

>Lastly, why are you fighting against the fairness? We had 150 people online earlier, when there were almost no rewards (cabal leaders and that's it). And the more imms were interfering players, the lower became online. It is the long-term fact and I dare you just to presume such possibility and think "what if that annoying asshole right?".<

You do realize that in the 150 player days, IMMs would slay you because they didn't like your RP (Cador). IMMs would hook up their friends morts, IMMs would cheat and get denied, IMMs would give insane rewards with no transparency. I feel like we're having a Billy Madison situation here. "We are all stupider..." et al.

Seriously, I rolled up a character specifically to interact with him.

Nt

Seconded

>I'll be short. For years there were tension and sometimes
>total misunderstanding between imms and players who have left
>because of the changes.

Over half the active Immstaff weren't even Immortals three years
ago. So, really it's up to you whether to hold that grudge.

>You were constantly shifting game into the way of "imms
>controlling everything, players decide nothing". The human factor
>here, for years, played a bad role. We had (and have, don't even
>try to deny it) favoritism, and only players who are "good" now
>have a chance to build their characters (edgewise). CF became a
>tiny masturbation sandbox for immortals and their pets.

Again, hardly relevant to now, but as far as "having" favoritism,
for the most part I can't be bothered to pay attention to who's
playing what, much less favor anyone. What I do favor, are
characters that I feel are worth rewarding.

>I offer a cardinal solution (you love such solutions). Stop
>playing immortals.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not happening.

>Remove ANY immexp and other imm rewards that directly affects
>gameplay and characters power. Limit your interference with only
>decorative rewards, such as lastnames, titles and tattoos.

Technically, both lastnames and tattoos provide a direct reward of
EP as well, not to mention any cool powers the tattoo might have
(which have definitely increased over the years).

>Punish any immortal that keeps sticking his nose into characters
>lives. Make everything else (canal leader poisons) automated and
>based on the game mechanics only, without appointing leaders by
>someone who thinks too much of themselves.

Yeah, pretty sure that's just not going to happen. You don't want
Imms getting involved? Hrm, there goes Entropy. At that point,
why not ditch religions as well? There goes your tattoos, and
hell, virtues and paths also.

You're also getting rid of Immortals actually doing the never-
liked task of cracking down on people. Corrupt Tribunals? Sure.
Imperials that don't follow Empire Law? Why not. Ragers ganking
down everyone? Go for it!

>I assure you, this would change CF a lot. Fair play, fair game
>for everyone, fair chances for everyone. It's what CF is
>totally lacking and the main reason why most of players have
>left. Stop shooting into your own legs, and just let us play.

On this, we agree. CF would change a lot. I just don't think for
the better. CF would just become POSmud. In all honestly, from
the tone of your posts, I feel like you've got a grudge you
haven't let go of.

As a point of reference, out of the top 10 current PK characters,
the top two have *ZERO* Immortal rewards besides role experience.
Of the other eight, the only two that have over 1k Immxp are both
characters that are over a year old (which is probably the major
factor in their PK count, rather than any uber rewards they've
gotten out of that EP). The other six combine for a total of
850immxp, averaging barely 150 immxp each. Pretty sure we're not
breaking your game at this point. In fact, most players are
complaining we're *not* handing out enough Immxp (which given the
current state, I somewhat agree with).

Ultimately, I believe that players *enjoy* Immteraction, and that
it provides an element in CF that you can't get in Diablo III, or
WoW. I enjoy it as well, so I'm going to continue to Immteract,
and reward/punish as appropriate. To me, this is one of the
unique selling points of the game, and part of what makes it
alive.

Is it perfect? No. Are we trying to improve CF as a whole, and
work towards that balance between automation and interaction?
Sure. So, that's about the gist of the CF landscape, and for as
much as you're complaining about favoritism, I'm honestly looking
and thinking we're not doing enough. So, play the game, or don't.
At this point, I'm rather certain there's nothing that can be
said, or done, that will change your opinion.

I had a grudge on Baer, Nep and Umiron. Now, when they are gone, I have no grudges at all.

You took my post as something "imms, get lost". No, I have never meant it.It's my fault, I should say more clear.

I meant that imms should become an objective, fair judges, without interfering into pfiles and player avatars. It is where imms should be. Not at position of chess players, who are boosting their favorite pawns and screwing others, as you do nite (no, don't even try to deny it, we had enough of those stories).

Also I do not buy "look, those two guys managed! With no edges!". Two managed but two hundred failed and left. And nite those two who adapted to the current world are of course would support you and back your delusion.

About "we are not Diablo III" - maybe it is why you have 20 players online while they have 20k. Imagine some fu**ers would being playing Gods in Diablo, or wow, or LoL, boosting some characters and nuking others? They would have your online now.

Every other your point about corrupt tribs and imperials breaking law can be easily automated. And ascending to the leader positions also may be totally automated.

What I see in your post between lines is "I am the God! How dare you, pesky mortal, challenge my authority?!" I think that your immortalship creeped into your real life and you are a bit too much thinking of your role in this life (and in the life of CF). Give it a try, free CF from your dictature and you'll have it revived.

Pity that won't ever happen, though :p

I think you're a delusional ####face and a semi-successful troll.

And you should be, too. It's going nowhere.

It's where insults and bitching should stay, and keep it from officials.

I can't help but agree with him to some extent. You come across like you have this perfect answer and yet so many items you claim could be automated... simply cannot. Over the past decade, players left to their own accord tend to metagame... while that does still happen, the immteraction and RP elements is the key that allows those out of the box character concepts. (I only wish that some flaws you can take could have actually lended themselves to more successful "outside the box" characters... ie, necromancers with the flaw to lose animate dead and golem spells, conjurers losing the ability to bind, etc... Sadly my necromancer was not allowed to join Outlander those few years back )

Point is, for me personally, it is exactly that RP element and potential interaction with an RP'd deity that keeps me around even if I lack the time to play as much as I used to. I'd prefer to code these days... But this is the absolute reason I never got hooked into WoW and so many other RPG games. About the only thing anyone could find in agreement with your arguments is that we all desire an improved system that still proves fair and still can reward stand-out characters.

The key is along the lines that the IMMs have mentioned above: characters that contribute to the game positively. This idea really needs to be meditated on by those players who lose their cool when they die and completely go ooc. Chances are they're the ones that missed a perfect opportunity to turn a ####ty situation into one that might have yielded immxp

Are you even playing the same game? Immexp is at an all time low for EVERYONE. There is no favoritism going on. Hell, I made captain and I've had like, zero hero presence in the 10 years I've been playing. I don't understand what the hell you're complaining about.

Calm down and just play the game, or don't and stop posting.

I don't think the Imm Staff has killed the game, and I'm not the conspiratorial type so I'm not sure I buy into Imm pets and torrents of supposed favoritism. I was around when (wrong imm) can't remember his darn name. (cloud giant entropy) was racing to hero before the first age big purge. I watched Copraphagous (spellcheck) accidentally commit suicide in the battlefields attacking one of my Shadow rangers bears. (There were three more bears that assisted.) I was then, and in many ways, still am a total newb. There have always been players/characters who made me look and feel hopeless by comparison.

So you have to ask yourself, why do you play? Do you embrace the steep learning curve and try to be a contender? Or do you opt to enjoy the game for what it is and invest as much as you expect to get out of it, remembering that in the beginning, middle and end, it's a game. You should be having fun, if not, you're doing something wrong.

I got dragged back in by logs of a dwarf eating deaths but being gungho throughout. Damn you dwarf maran! But, despite it being so different I feel like a complete newb again, I'm having fun.

You should try it. Good luck man!

And sorry I replied under the wrong post! See! Total newb!

Thanks for the input. Why do I play? I'm playing only competitive games with a high challenges, such as LoL (with striving to get to platinum league). I love balance and fair rules, where everyone have the same chances no matter of who they are and if admins likes them or dislikes. CF may be such a game, but way more interesting, if human factor rewards would be removed or, at least, seriously nerfed. Until this happens, CF will remain the game for the chosen, while everyone else well-defined be the cannon fodder for them.

And my penis!

Just kidding.

Glad you liked the logs

GTFOH

...of favoritism in CF. The more you lick here, the more you get there, my little immpet.

Way to lose all credibility.

n/t

..getting his jollies stirring people up here trying to see how far he can take it and how much he can stir up before being denied access.