Immxp seems even rarer than it was before the changes. Would you consider upping the points that comes from getting imm xp from an imm who you've never received it from before? I don't think anyone is getting over 1k to even really benefit from it.

Also would you consider adding a moderate amount of xp for cabal induction? As it stands now most of my characters can't take an ideal edge even with 1400 role xp and some commerce. 10 retrievals can take a long time depending on the cabal and hoping for a last name/leadership/tattoo seems cruel and unusual punishment.

I understand the desire to reign in edges but from my experience across multiple characters this may be going too far.

Just bring back obs/exp. Please please please please! We love the absence of grinding, but we love edges so much more!

Make it so that as you grow older(hour wise), you "unlock" your explore/obs edge points. Reduces some of the grind, so most characters will naturally accrue them, and the ones that grind won't be "ahead". They'll have to wait to access those edge points.

I literally just thought of this, so don't me because it's not fleshed out.

But still a solid neat idea to my mind.

gr

We still love you Jalim.

>We still love you Jalim.

I'm a nobody. Curse you meddling kids and that mog.

Quantum ad me attinet, disceptamus novum exemplar.

Bravo, as always.

A quick request? Though I imagine you may develop other form/forms of edge point reward, but if you do re-enact obs/exp edge points would it be too hard to award the points per exp already gained to existing character created after the removal?

As always, thanks either way.

I know we all want a system that is fair and doesn't require too much grinding. I can agree with that. But for now, while it gets worked out, I know many of us would like some of the lost edge points back. Customization is AWESOME, and we lost alot of that.

You're awesome.

I am happy to hear that you are listening to players like me, even if I can be a bit overbearing with my opinion.

IMMs lately seem to actually be reading roles like they used to before all the edge drama started. After all the Umiron stuff went down IMM XP and role exp basically stopped completely. It is way different than waiting 2-3 weeks for initial xp. I'm glad at least you guys are actively pursuing one of those methods of patting players on the back who actually use roles and update regularly.

That might be a good place to add edge opportunity if you're looking.

I guess technically it's still farmable, but when you have a character that starts with a fleshed out role and personality, extra role updates come naturally at big changes in that character's life. So people who do that, and the ones that just want to farm it, both benefit from it.

NT

I was playing since 1999. I've left after edge points for PK were removed, like A *** LOT of other CF veterans. Please bring them back and I, as well as at least six more players that I know personally, will be back.

CF is a PK MUD, PK *is* the core gameplay and should be rewarded (if you disagree, go play IRC RP chats). Maybe not so much as before, and definitely without "kill dozens of newbies before level 20", but it must be rewarded. Retrospectively, you may see players started to leave exactly after that castration.

I'll be honest - I'm a PK first, RP next kinda guy (notice my religion tends to lean towards chaos and destruction), but even I don't like this idea.

Edges aren't just customization - most of them mechanically increase a character's power to some degree as well. This leads to a rich become richer situation, where it's even harder for the bottom to catch up. At one point, edges were used to encourage types of actions (exploring, RP, etc). PK is an area that's never needed encouragement. Like you say - it's the core of why you play...So why not continue to do it? Because you aren't getting AS rewarded? Pretty certain gear, the "I won", records, have all been encouragement enough for plenty.

Pk first, rp next?

No kidding. You abandoned those guys rping with you in your shrine to bash down my poor helpless ap.

Checking my pkwins, the only person I've killed since I Imm'd who wasn't another Imm is Rokhwar.

That, and I don't recall bashing that much. I like the exotic stuff. Punt, batter, fun stuff like that.

He bashed Tsal into the ground with savage feeding for striking down some flimsy unshifted shifter in his shrine.

Although, I was pretty sure the kill was accidental (you cast hold person on me, which caused me to auto-attack). I think you had just meant to hold me in place either way, Jormyr's RP allowed for it.

If some of the edge points do get brought back, give players the option to choose "a few edge points from exploring" OR " a few edge points for PKing." That way everyone gets to have and eat their cake. You can't do both. And don't make the PK goals level based. Just make it like retrievals. 5, 10, 15, boom done. That way you won't have veterans holding certain low/mid PK ranges hostage for extended periods of time, although it would still be expected to some extent because of certain builds shining at those ranges. People who are good at one but not the other, which I think would cover a large portion of the playerbase, would love this. Too crazy? What do you think? Thanks for chiming in here.

Big thanks to Scar for dropping us a line and letting the players know he's listening and considering. That little bit of text goes a long long way.

-cheers

Just glance at averages for PK across the board and set that as the max edge points you get (doesn't have to be a whole bunch).

Same with observation.

The point is to not max out via grind, but offer enough to give SOME customization.

And honestly, PK is as much a part of the game as everything else, and we want players to participate...

So instead of total PK wins awarding edge points (10 points for every 10 pk wins up to 50 total)

Would you guys consider awarding edge points for pk participation?

10 points for every 10 pk completions? (win or loss)

Get 50 PK wins you get 50 edge points*
Get 50 PK loses you get 50 edge points
Get any combination of the two 25 wins and 25 losses you get 50 edge points

This would encourage pk and award participation in that great aspect of the game without re-enforcing the rich get richer worry.

This is of course scale-able, small edge point amounts awarded as it adds up, just like commerce.

*just using 50 edge points as an example, we don't know what's worth what

I think I'd be speaking for the majority if I said:
I don't mind if everyone else gets many edges, as long as I get them.

I am one of the people that used to play long-lived characters, heroes, cabal leaders, a lot of them were rewarded, 0 complaints from the playerbase as far as I know in terms of driving away ppl and so on, and I focused first and foremost on PK.

I stopped playing when the edge changes happened, specifically when PK no longer contributed to them as did many others that I personally know, and used to play the game with (either as adversaries or allies).

The core issue is that many skills in the game are broken without specific edges. You can interpret broken in subjective ways, but a few of the interpretations that most often come up for me are: entirely useless in PK, tedium and more tedium and not fun. By taking away edge points from PK, you are making me and the others who *enjoy* PKing _jump through tedium hoops_ to make these skills usable. We can argue back and forth about the skills, but the fact remains that *we have been conditioned through the years* and that conditioning was suddenly pulled from under our feet. We are simply not willing to waste time in things that we've always deemed *not fun* in order to restore a level of fun that we used to take for granted.
You can always fix the skills of course, but 1) there's too many of them 2) hard to agree on what/how and *if* skills should be fixed 3) all of that rests on the IMM-side. Edge points from PKs *put that decision-making power in our hands*. We could craft the *CF we wanted to play*, to a certain extent.

Another issue is that edges contributed to the subjective flair of the character. That idea that all the hours we're putting into the character translate into something that's more than ephemeral, something unique. You can call it "a build", "an avatar" or whatever, but it comes down to a set of edges. Since we're good PKers and we enjoy PKing, the feedback loop was *short* and *rapid*. Fun led to more flair which led to fun and more flair and so on. That made the game *ADDICTIVE*.

Yet, you don't seem to grasp this. Instead, you (and others) keep reiterating fallacies like "the rich become richer, it's even harder for the bottom to catch up". There is no catching up PK-wise for someone in the bottom, edges or not. It boggles the mind that an IMM (and I assume experienced player) would think otherwise.

Finally, the proof of the pudding is in the size of the playerbase. How did these changes work out for you? Do you enjoy playing CF with sub-10 to 20 at most players? Is the bottom catching-up now?

Douche.

where you say you never stirred complaints from the playerbase.
You Auldr re-think that statement.

You quit CF that long ago, and yet you come back here to try and convince us to make changes to a game you don't even play anymore so that you *might* come back? Its hard to take your opinion seriously when you don't play in the current dynamic. Perhaps give it the ole college try and see if its really as horrible as you think it is.

You are also essentially validating the point of the "rich getting richer" argument with this statement:

There is no catching up PK-wise for someone in the bottom, edges or not.


So why would we make it even more difficult for "bad players" to have a chance vs the "good players" by making said "good players" even more powerful as a reward for killing said "bad players"?

Im not saying that there isnt a possible happy medium that could exist for giving EP for PK wins, but it sure as hell wouldn't be something anywhere close to the old method that supported multi-killing the easiest target you could at a level bracket to get the points.

>You quit CF that long ago, and yet you come back here to try
>and convince us to make changes to a game you don't even play
>anymore so that you *might* come back? Its hard to take your
>opinion seriously when you don't play in the current dynamic.
>Perhaps give it the ole college try and see if its really as
>horrible as you think it is.

I don't know if *I* will come back, but I'm pretty sure others will.
I did give it a try (as I've posted before) with a few short-lived characters
and it was as horrible as I imagined it would be. To understand my point of
view, you need to compare my impression of the game, as conditioned
over a decade of playing, with CF as it stands after the edge point changes:

Maybe, CF with the changes *examined in isolation*, seems quite nice to you.
But really, you're dealing with addicts on withdrawal here. Whatever
flexibility in terms of adaptation to game changes existed, was spent long ago
on things like the playerbase getting halved then halved again, cabal changes,
IMM changes, skill nerfs and so on. Adapting to this new CF, especially
when the idea of the old CF was so strongly reinforced, is not an option.


>
>You are also essentially validating the point of the "rich
>getting richer" argument with this statement:
>
>There is no catching up PK-wise for someone in the bottom,
>edges or not.
>
>
>So why would we make it even more difficult for "bad players"
>to have a chance vs the "good players" by making said "good
>players" even more powerful as a reward for killing said "bad
>players"?

They would get pk edges from killing *all* players, not just
"bad" players. You seem to imply that somehow everyone would
focus on the bad players and hound them out of the game
for those nice edge points. Yet, in all the years that we had edge points
from PK, was that an issue? From what I've seen it only became an
issue when the Twist leak happened and ppl *felt* as if they had
to *level sit* so as not to miss the edges *tied* to that level-sitting.
And even then, I would bet money that there was a limited number of
people that did this. High quality players, me among them, played their
characters *holistically*. They cared about such things as IMM comments
on their PBFs, cabal statistics, cabal leadership/retrievals and also
making the game fun by roleplaying their characters. One could say,
there already were *checks and balances* built-into the game to discourage
the behaviors that you deem anathema.

Regarding the # of PKs by level tier, I've said before
that this was a stupid mechanic. You could have removed it, yet you threw
out the baby with the bathwater.

>
>Im not saying that there isnt a possible happy medium that
>could exist for giving EP for PK wins, but it sure as hell
>wouldn't be something anywhere close to the old method that
>supported multi-killing the easiest target you could at a
>level bracket to get the points.

So if you feel so strongly about this, make multi-killing not an option for
PK edge-points. It sure as #### seems easier and more prudent to me
(small iterative changes to better evaluate their causal effects) than
flipping the switch on the entire thing.

To avoid any confusion, when I say bring back edge points from PKs, I refer
to the edge points one got every number of kills irrespective of levels.

Not to the edge points tied to # of kills by specific level tiers.
It might not seem so, but there's a big difference in the sort of behavior these two mechanics encouraged.

And to end this, as I said countless times before, CF was and is a PK game
with enforced RP. Not a RP-game with PK as the icing on the cake. Every
attempt that was made to mess with this, has turned out badly. Edge points
from PKs is just one way to have a nice feedback loop going, from the core
aspect of the game. I am pretty sure there are others, but they're all gonna
have to be tied to player killing.

NT

just don't *encourage* it. In the past, IMM comments on the PBFs
and community feedback/criticism and ridicule were used as leverage.
Not to say that there weren't people who didn't give a #### about any
of this, and kept doing their own thing, but *gasp* they weren't the
majority, not even close.

In fact, I dare say that assholes *do have their place* in CF. Newbies
have to learn to deal with them, and thus get stronger which increases
the odds of them becoming longterm players. CF is a PK game, there is
no solution to the multikilling thing. People have to learn to deal with it,
and they're better off having done so. That's even assuming that such
a thing as newbies exist in today's CF, and we're not just a group of
people that have been playing the game for multiple years.

It was encouraging multi-killing. I would be all for some system that rewards edge points for PK, but how it was before, and especially after specifics were released, encoured the level sitting and multikilling to maximize your edge points. That was a huge issue, and I'm sure big reason they did away with PK edge points. Now instead of declaring the imms did something wrong, so that some group of players you know might possibly maybe think about coming back possibly, you could offer up some solution in the happy medium, one that helps everyone enjoy the customization and sense of achievement that comes with edges, but doesn't put those players farther behind while also encouraging people to kill that noob over and over to farm EP's.

I feel bad in like 50% of my PKs.

No maybe. I will be back when there will be a way to counter your favoritism and play with pet shop boys on the same terms.

PK rewards is that way.

And you should listen better what players who have left are telling you why did they leave. You have your opinion, we have your online, decreased to zero sometimes.

Nice attempted troll though.

People are adapting to the new regime.
Difficulty in getting edges has contributed to your own playtimes, and you cannot deny it.

I played more in the new system (Bron had 168 hrs!) than I did in the old system the last year.

Apart from all the nonsense -flso was spouting, if reintroducing EP for PK is enough to bring -flso back to CF then that in itself is a very strong argument against such a reintroduction.

that was being passed around behind-the-scenes.

You're a better man than me Bemused!

But the main one is that I stop trolling forums of games once I stop playing that game. It speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.

It's obvious

1.) the game doesn't have to be all about hero. Lower level PK and explore bonuses created incentives to not power rank.

2.) the broad spectrum of the original edge point system was so you could do A and B and get mini bonuses without doing C and D. Or do all. I loved that tge old system let you play without needing manual imm nudges, the current system is heavily tilted that way.

3.) if your concern is multi killing to farm EP switch it from 10 kills to 10 different PCs killed.

Honestly I think the best/easiest fix is to bring the old system back. Switch kills to unique players, and put a cap on total points so you can get them in a ton of ways but you can't max all of them.

Real talk.

Why? Because we "like it"?

Well ####, I like executioner's grace. Does that mean all my characters should get it?

I like to think that reduces potential bias in my views.

Personally I think edges are good for the game. Some need toning down. Some of the ideas suggested sound good. Eg points for pk losses as well as wins. I could argue that pk losses are often a proxy for rp.

>Is the bottom catching-up now?

Actually, it's the game for the bottom now, who can't do #### without imms boosting them. Everyone else has left, with rare exception of masochists who can't fight their addiction.

Favoritism is the worst thing that happening in CF. No matter what you say, it's there. Immexp to some player over and over again, boosting their characters, and zero to other players is why a lot of us left.

With PK edge points, we could stand against that and play on the same ground (except for extra spells, legacies and etc, but that were tolerable). After removing PK rewards it became too ugly.

Yes, some of us still could make 100-5 PK score, but the sense of unfairness is what drove people off.

You may claim that you don't have favoritism, but everyone knows you do. And only imms are deciding who are "good" to deserve power. For any game that's a miserable fate, and 1 player online sometimes should have prove it a long ago.

But as someone said below, it's good that Scar began to listen. There is a chance for yet.

I needed this laugh, thanks.

I know it's a new account, but damn does your style of bitching and complaining seem familiar.

Lick harder, maybe you'll get you title now.

"If you hate what CF is this much, why are you here either playing or spending this much time creating drama on the forums? What this excessive posting (essentially spamming) is doing is probably having the exact opposite affect of what you are trying to accomplish if you are genuinely trying to be helpful.

I would also suggest that if you are really trying to be helpful that you open up the hearing the idea of others instead of just covering your ears and replying Lick more butt when someone disagrees with you.

Not every idea is a good one, and not every idea is a bad one. If its impossible to have a legitimate back and forth discussion with someone then suddenly no matter how much potential merit their ideas have, you are almost forced to write them off as bad." - Destuvius

But seriously, do you even know who I am? I used to have zero impact on this game. The most immxp any of my characters have ever had outside of role exp is my last, Sephira. Before that, my presence was limited to lowbie murder rangers and a failed attempt of every other class. Yet here you are, thinking everyone playing is an "Imm pet."

If you really have a problem with it, and want to play but don't like the state of it, start an actual discussion. An actual conversation. You're just being a spamming #### right now, and it gets no one anywhere. If someone disagrees with you, reply with points of why you think your idea is a good one, and most people here will do the same. You're only making your idea look worse by acting this, seriously.

If I would hate CF I wouldn't post and wouldn't care about the situation. Also I wouldn't answer to the trolls like you.

But I always loved CF and I still dream that CF will become what it once were, before some smartass came to destroy what Valg and others were creating for years. And no, I'm not fanboy of Valg, I didn't like him as a person, but his contribution is amazing.

So calm down, stop bitching and try to see the picture from someone else point of view.

I'm sure you'll be back under your bridge before long, anyway.

You've came to troll and got pwned. Next time try to respect others and their point of view instead of being an ass from Dios.

I posted a compromise solution to this a while back. Award edge points for PK but with a fairly low cap and with a couple of restrictions.

1. You only get edge points for each of your first N qualifying PKs, subject to the following restrictions.
2. N is fairly low, e.g. in the 10-20 range.
3. Only solo PKs count. This restriction is waived when the killer is a healer.
4. Successive PKs on the same victim don't count.
5. From levels 11 to 46, only the first PK at a given rank counts.
6. A PK only counts for the killer if the victim has PK'd at least one person. This restriction is waived when the victim is a healer.

This rewards PK, but accomplishes the following legitimate goals:

a. It doesn't create a huge advantage for top-tier PKers because the cap is so low.
b. Average-skill players who try hard and live a long time have a decent shot at maxing out their edge points from PK because, again, the cap is so low.
c. Ganging isn't encouraged since only solo PKs count.
d. Multi-killing isn't encouraged since you don't get credit for successive PKs on the same person.
e. Level sitting isn't encouraged since you only get credit for your first PK at a given level.
f. Fragging clueless newbies isn't encouraged since you only get credit if your victim has himself managed to kill someone.

Likely not exact, but I don't actually know latin myself, so google translate had to work.


As far as I am concerned, a new copy of the dispute. Nice.

Sadly, Google Translate is abysmal with Latin because it has no ability to distinguish between words with similar inflected forms (e.g., is "vita" in the nominative or the ablative?) and some Latin idioms require knowledge of the discourse itself rather than simply thinking of a sentence as a collection of words.

Classics students lament world-wide...

I love exploring even places I mostly know.

NT

Probably the single biggest reason for less immxp is a reduced staff size. A secondary factor is that pretty much everyone on staff right now has a lot going on in their lives and approx 50% has just now started to be able to put some "real time" back into the mud after all the holiday stuff that tends to be hectic for everyone.

As with all topics that come up about EP, at this point there is literally 1 guy who can do anything about them and thats Scar. If you want to try and convince him to do it by all means, but I daresay that beating this horse further doesn't actually help the request look for valid.

I don't know how customization became a four level word for CF, but here we are...

Give edge points for all things that contribute to the longevity of the game.

Cabal Stuff: Cabal induction, cabal warfare, leadership, x hours in cabal 100, 200, 300.


PVE: Give edge points for core mobs that are difficult to fight/kill. The problem some of the staff had with obs xp, was that people were gaming it by just running around looking at #### and fleeing. Killing Thar archmages for edge points is a lot different than making a ghost run and running around looking at #### for obs/explore.

Con Loss/Aging: Time and again we've heard the staff say, we like long lived chars. Why not give edge points for successfully playing a char to con loss? Edge points at losing 5 con, 10 con 15 con... cause if you are dying that ####ing much, you clearly need some help. I don't know about rest of the base, but I like seeing chars like Brondalorm that keep trucking despite the odds and repeat deaths.

Roleplay: This is the slot for that unicorn everyone keeps talking about, I think they call it Imm xp?

Pk: Bring back edges for pk, cap it to X amount of edge points. Remove tiers because they promote level sitting and multi-ikilling.

.

More edges is good imho but I don't think some of the specifics of what you suggest are that fair.

Uncaballed characters get shafted, since they'd miss out on the major source.

Also giving loads for killing tough mobs screws characters that don't have loads of allies.

I like the idea of rewarding significant con loss. It would need to sensibly allow for people who buy back lost con though.

They are what's best for the game and it's direction imo.

There's a fine line between encouraging people to join cabals and making non-caballed chars pretty ineffective.

I mean don't cabal powers, EQ, IMM exposure, leadership opportunities and and edge points for retrievals already encourage people to join cabals?

I'd rather not penalize non-caballed chars even more. If you let people play the chars they want and have fun with...at least they are playing.

I haven't seen any almost since 2015.

i remember imm's being vocal at the time about being sure to hand out more and maybe they did but for those of us who play on the US nightshift it's non-existent.

I'd like to take this time to thank whoever has been rating roles so promptly though. That's been great.

>I'd like to take this time to thank whoever has been rating
>roles so promptly though. That's been great.


Seconded. Dude's been awesome.

>Immxp seems even rarer than it was before the changes. Would
>you consider upping the points that comes from getting imm xp
>from an imm who you've never received it from before? I don't
>think anyone is getting over 1k to even really benefit from
>it.
>
>Also would you consider adding a moderate amount of xp for
>cabal induction? As it stands now most of my characters can't
>take an ideal edge even with 1400 role xp and some commerce.
>10 retrievals can take a long time depending on the cabal and
>hoping for a last name/leadership/tattoo seems cruel and
>unusual punishment.
>
>I understand the desire to reign in edges but from my
>experience across multiple characters this may be going too
>far.

I agree with the entirety of this post. I understand 30 edges is too many, but honestly, as a leader with over 200 hours and role exp edge points, and a bit of imm xp, I had two edges, one of them being extra training. I still couldn't even get the edge I wanted, either. Oh, and it wasn't until over 200 hours I got imm xp for the first and only time.