Not sure if this is working as intended... but based on several threads below, I don't think so.

Uncaballed, RP'ed character that is heroed, and has role exp cannot spin the wheel on a minor form.

This is dumb.

Looks like for the most part this thread has run its course. Locking it so as not to clutter the whole front page whenever someone makes a comment.

People are welcome to continue the topic in a new thread if they feel there's still relevant topics to discuss.

TL/DR:

I've played mostly melee classes for the last several years. Recently, I've been focused on shifters and have played a lot of them. One reason is when I get a form or forms that make the char sub-par power-wise, I'll start another char. Sorry, I'm not going to age die a Air major who's second tier utility form is wasted on a mantis (as a recent example).

What strikes me as odd is the attitude that you should have to play the cards (forms) you're dealt and suggestions to the contrary are dismissed as "as designed". Every other class I play against (except maybe shaman), can be designed for maximum power/use by the player.

Why doesn't the same logic that applies to shifters work with warriors and thieves? Random thief path, random weapon specialties, random legacies...

The warriors/assassins I have to deal with are designed kill me. I'd like to be able to design my shifter to kill them, too.

"But everyone would have the same forms"! Is that true for legacies, weapon specs? If it is for forms, then the forms need to be better balanced instead of encouraging players to rank multiple chars to hero or near it before they get one that they are willing to really play/enjoy.

Just a thought.

Because not all classes are the same. You can also very much design a shifter to try and kill people. The major focus you pick has a pretty sizable impact on the way that the class plays because of greater enlivens and your minor focus can also go a long way in determining how effective or ineffective you potentially are. Also, the forms are actually pretty gd balanced in each foci from one to the next. Player preference doesn't mean lack of balance.

I agree that foci largely determines the function of your char. But, the important question is not "Are the forms balanced within a tier of a focus". What matters is after the RNG picks your forms from each tier, "Are characters with the same maj/min focus balanced"?

In other words, a character might be identical to another at creation as far as what the player can choose. At hero, one may be awesome from a power, function perspective and one horrible by comparison. And you spent 50-100 hours to find out if you think your char is worth playing or not.

I mean, if someone is willing to start a whole new character after 35 hours because they didn't get a regen form, wouldn't it be more beneficial to just let them pick their regen form and have them fully invested in a char they like? And it doesn't matter if regen forms are under or over rated, it's what THAT player wants to be entertained.

Player preference = happiness. Control = happiness.

When you get a form you don't like or you think is not useful to your char = not fun.

I don't expect to change any policy, just voicing a different perspective.

EGO.

I think mantis is a great form to have in your choices.

nt

>Uncaballed, RP'ed character that is heroed, and has role exp
>cannot spin the wheel on a minor form.
>
>This is dumb.

Yeah, considering you didn't get role exp, this really is dumb. Because if it was designed that shapeshifter can just reroll his minor after heroing without getting any edge points other than that, they'd just give you "StW" command on getting your last minor form.

Those are edges, mate. New rules is that they make you different because you stand out, not because you're part of exceptional nation, sorry.

P.S. If you can hero a shapeshifter in two days like that, just hero another one, really. It's easier than writing a second role chapter, right?

Doing the Herald Thing. Had lots of IC interactions that I enjoyed. I was invested in the character, which is what a smart Staff would actually want. (meaning, that they aren't smart)

In retrospect. I could level a bunch of characters and "start" to roleplay the character at 48. Seems to be the way the staff wants it when it comes to shifters.

Irrelevant now. But sure.

Good luck bud.

You have role xp but not enough to gain EP from it. If you manage to get the rest of the necessary role xp to reach the point it gives you EP you will be more than capable of taking the swap a form edge.

Okay. 1400 role xp doesn't seem to hard to get, but really?

This edge (especially the minor) should be obtainable to a hero.

Having to spend *all* of your EP, even from your max role XP, to roll your minor form seems excessive when there are no other reliable ways to get EP.

Very dumb, frustrating, to the point of anti-fun.


The call for every char getting 1-2 high, 2-3 mid, 3-4 low EP edges seems to make more and more sense for both customization, and anti-stupidity/frustration perspectives.

Apply, build your area, rise out of the hero Imm ranks, gain a few high level backers, then you can adjust the system so that it is reasonable and enjoyable for everyone.

Until then, kindly #### off

nt

asdf

You're supposed to be a respectable member of this community who is a moderator of the other forum, and here you are acting like someone you would probably ban if this was your page.

Since you are being intentionally obtuse on the whole process, let me explain it to you a little better:

If you want to do something to help without applying to the staff, then do it. A great example of this is Torak's video he decided to make.

If you want to do something to help that you are unable to do without support from the staff, then you should probably try to find someone who is willing to sponsor your efforts.

If you want to do something that requires knowledge/access that a lot of the current staff members don't have access to, then you will probably want to start jumping through the hoops to join the staff. Even if you aren't at the point where you have access to it yourself, people are more willing to take you seriously because you have put in at least the basic effort to earn more trust/respect with the development and forward progress of the game.

Then of course, there is also the funnyone approach where you reply with nonsense that isn't even correct anytime you can....

A decent reply where you are giving options instead of just telling people to apply for the staff.

Thank you.

gr

My guess is Destuvius is played by Beront.

Although hit on funnyone indicates you (good work) or shapa.

Hmm...

n/t

I get this, but thinking specifically about these shapeshifter edges the points required seems rather onerous in the new system.

If someone wants to re-roll their major they need to get to 47/48 using a second-tier form, and then hero still using their minor first-tier. (This doesn't get into how the "never shifted into" requirement punishes newbies who might not be familiar with forms.) On top of that, the racial edge forms are worse. Should an elf/d-elf/svirf be stuck with only one second-tier form until hero?

Shapeshifters wanting to take these edges are hamstrung in a way no other class I can think of is.

The cost of these edges feel as though they were built for a meta with far more points available earlier in a character's life.

I was actually discussing this topic today, and was specifically commenting about the cost of these edges vs what you can reasonably expect to gain. Overall, I think these are currently a bit difficult to gain. On the flip side, consider that before these edges existed, you just took what you got, so I'm not entirely convinced every shapeshiftrr *needs* to be able to pick these edges.

Overall, I'm generally of the opinion that edge points are too much in the hands of needing Immortal interaction, and this situation is more a fallout from that, however I'm not entirely certain where I believe I feel they should be, nor what methods to use that can be semi-automated, and not be exploited or seen as a grind.

There have been a number of changes making the game even slightly friendlier to players - if we took the "before these edges existed" logic in that direction the game would never progress in the name of fun. Giving a player a single do-over on a character seems relatively accommodating to both balance and fun.

That said, I agree you don't want to create a situation where every air/offense shifter gets a re-roll for their preferred forms, but an utility/offense shifter is only likely going to delete if they end up with orangutan/gorilla.

Spitballing a solution, what if each shifter was able to take a single form change edge at whatever point they hit the prereqs for it, with their edge points going into the negative to cover the cost?

Of course, adjusting the cost downwards a bit would be a nice bonus to throw in.

Rolled a utility/utility and ended up with orangutan/howler monkey. I lasted two weeks before I couldn't take it anymore.

I'd reroll an offence if I didn't get gorilla

NT

NT

Weirdly, empowerment changes made the game less dependent on immortals based on how hot/cold they were or If they couldn't play as much. They are humans too so it opened doors.

While edge changes have made everyone far more dependent on immortal love for core class choices. The average immortal exp given out falls below the average exp needed even for standard characters.

Also, for the record (and this isn't a complaint) I've gotten 0 immortal exp over 3 characters and 300 hrs playing time since I returned. I'm throwing this out there not because I'm upset in anyway, I'm not though I miss edges, but as an observation to how weird and randomly unlevel the system is. The results of imm exp can bring fun boons or be frustrating if you love that stuff and want to play with similar tools.

Another good exercise (as someone who loves character design and crafting customization) is to read thru some of the edge lists by class. If you find yourself laughing at 35% as horrifically unviable and a waste, it's a sign of how stingy the edge system has shifted.

Don't even get me started on portions of the general edge list that you could pick with a Baerinika but not in 2016

In summary, I think the frustration across the playerbase for edges drying up as options far outceeds the concern with some players having had too many edges that existed before. Now that the explore grind is gone, I'd like to see middle ground.

I'd love to see 3 more edges for ALL based on game time.
I'd love to see an edge for getting your first FEW pkills (encouraging people to participate in that, even newbies) but then immediately stops awarding more so we don't encourage repeat killing
I'd love to see edges awarded for major con loss with also helps newbies/hurting characters and helps this struggling with pkilling

And these 3 ideas are newbie/veteran color blind.

Oh, and I'm writing this poolside from Cancun

..but they got changed for a reason. Because it wasn't fun. Roll/Spin has saved many characters and several thousand hours of character development by this point.

Just think about people who don't write roles still. They don't have edge points at this point to even roll/spin after they hero. So guy that only plays to explore/pk and doesn't feel like putting hours into backstory is just ####ered.

Just keep it simple

Every character gets X edge points by Hero. Every 100 hours, chars get X edge points.

Done. Tweak from there.

No grind, no abuse.

>I was actually discussing this topic today, and was
>specifically commenting about the cost of these edges vs what
>you can reasonably expect to gain. Overall, I think these are
>currently a bit difficult to gain.

In order to take RtB or StW, an uncaballed level 51 character would only need a very small amount of EPs from some combination of Commerce XP, Imm XP, their last name being approved, or Role XP.

They could get it 100% from the 1.4k Role XP alone and nothing else, or through some combination of other factors.

Certain race shapeshifters wouldn't even need that because they get an EP bonus (e.g., arial shifter).

It's not as easy as it used to be (because a shifter could just farm a ton of EXP/OXP), but the cost of the edges were halved to make up for that. They were still meant to be expensive though.

Gnome Shapeshifter

Cabaled, 200 Imm Exp, 1300 Role Exp, Hero. Still can't spin the wheel.

Enjoy the ball.

NT

The way EP from Role exp works is that you get 0 EP until you hit 1400 role Exp, then you get all of the EP. Its not something where you get a few points here and there as you get towards the 1400.

Being inducted into a cabal does not give you EP either.

The only change between yesterday and today is that you got some imm exp, which did give you EP, just not enough to get the edge that you wanted.

Great.

Incredible.

The way role exp is assigned is static.

Initial entires are 0, 500, 1000, 1500, 2000.

Updates are 0, 400, 800, 1200.

Your initial role got 500.

You received 2 different 400 updates, getting you to 1300.

Can guidelines be vaguely outlined as to what should constitute a basic role to get those:

500
1000
1500
2000

I always go by the 1000+400 path, and my roles are pretty generic in what they tell. So I wonder what can be done better in order to move up the scale.

Just in case

This was an unremarkable character that did unremarkable things for the most part. 42 hours comments towards this, as if you're more active power to hero vs doing other things, you don't tend to stand out much.

When you did, yes, you were RPing, but your RP was leaning in a direction that we intentionally do not want to reward. Taking another character's last name will near always get your last name denied. Writing meaningless role entries just to try to get you exp tends to get zero xp from them.

And was applauded, given IMM xp, and given the last name.

If you honestly don't see the difference between the two situations....

That you take the same exact scenario and replace a heroIMM with another PC. You know, like HEROIMMS don't RP anymore. Who cares man.

That's the path the RP took me. I just went with it. Maybe you should tell us all how you would like the community to RP proper... I mean, you try to control everything else.

Whatever. Enough of you.

*waves*

..then move on.

You keep coming back to harp on your woe is me stuff and you're making it apparent you're having some RL angst you're not sorting through properly.

You could have rolled another gnome and had other forms and been inducted by now if you're that passionate about it.

Just make a life decision and either walk away or quit bitching, you aren't doing yourself any favors either way here.

Not to just repeat myself, but it feels like there's a huge imbalance in making a shifter wait until hero to swap a form. Swapping your major requires getting to 47/48 using only a second tier form. Worse still are the second-tier racial forms -- making a shifter forgo a second-tier so they can swap it out only after they've hit 51 doesn't make a lot of sense to me in terms of fun or fairness (I get there are reasons to take them, but -- without concrete reasons explained in the helpfile and pre-existing familiarity with the forms -- it distinctly disadvantages newbies.

What the change in edge points has done is now require a shifter to hero, receive imm/role exp AND take on a significant reduction in their class's abilities for an extended period of time (potentially 23 levels if swapping out a second tier major).

Destuvius suggested elsewhere, a shifter with five edges isn't really much more powerful than a shifter with none, and these are edges which don't necessarily increase a shifter's raw power. It just seems to be an unbalanced expectation of shifters, where no similar requirement is put on any other class's edges.

Shapeshifters were not meant to reroll IN THE FIRST PLACE. And now you're bitching that you have to suffer some in order to reroll?

Kids these days.

I get that argument. But if we extended it to any other topic, we'd shut down any progress or development in the game.

Most edges add usefulness to a character with the cost being only edge points. Shapeshifters get hit with a massive additional cost to their overall power prior to hero if they want to reroll. It would be a bit different if they could re-roll a form they've previously used (and newbie friendlier), but as things stand, there's an enormous disparity.

There's no great parallel with another class, but suppose to take weapon edges as a warrior you couldn't have practiced any non-spec weapon skill over 90%. Would your answer still be "Well, you never got these before, so its fair to suffer some to take it now?"

Basing things off of the way they were a decade ago is absurd. The game is much friendlier to new and old players. This is just a single, easily remedied area in which it seems to have moved backwards.

I've only taken one weapon spec edge. At that moment I was like 300+ hours leader a shipload of edgepoints enough for at least 5 StW

The thing about shifters if that they are on a comparable power scale without any gear as they are with gear. It is a huge advantage of the class. The entirety of this discussion is weird when people are *only* focusing on the perceived shortcomings of the class and ignoring the other perks of it.

As has been stated many many many times, if a player cannot handle the randomness of forms they probably shouldn't play a shapeshifter.

I feel the gear/ungeared argument carried more weight back when shifter's didn't have stats or saves carry over from gear (I think? I might be misremembering this), but I'll leave that issue for now.

what about the racial form edges, then? Ignoring the rest of it, I'm deeply curious how often those were chosen pre-EP change, and post. Randomness is one thing, but the requirements now for replacing a second tier form are brutal on a player, and they end up with a form of diminished usefulness since they've hit hero by that point.

The only racial form I've ever seen people take has been the cavefisher one. The Pseudodragon Form offers a HUGE perk regardless of when you pick it up, so it doesn't bother me that it might take someone hitting hero to get it. The cavefisher one replaces a final form so getting that at hero is generally irrelevant.

Most of the racial form edges were never selected because people would typically avoid playing the races that had forms hooked onto them (elf, d-elf, svirf) because the "standard best" race for a shifter trumps the idea of a exp penalty or huge vuln just to get a mediocore form choice.

1) Edges got nerfed hard. It was a long time coming, so I've taken it a lot better than most of the playerbase. But it was absurd that there were characters with 20+ edges routinely.

2) Any character can chose those edges StW or RtB when they hit the requirement. They don't have to be at hero. I understand what you're getting at, but what's the worst that can happen? You're stuck with a 2nd tier form for an extra 4-5 ranks when you get your final minor form. It's not that bad. Anyone who has power-ranked a shifter knows that you can "lose the lottery". ####, my last character to choose Roll the Bones did it at level 48, once I got my minor final form. And that was in the old system. All the shifter forms are pretty good, I keep telling people. Yeah, going double Utility sucks when you get Howler/Orang, but you knew that was a possibility going in.

3) Am I happy some edges have IMM xp requirements? No, I'm not. Am I happy with the edge system as a whole. No, but I feel better about it than I did 2 years ago, that's for sure.

Consider that before these edges existed, you just took what you got, so I'm not entirely convinced every shapeshiftrr *needs* to be able to pick these edges.

Wow. This logic is so flawed man. I expect more from you!

I mean, lets just roll back the game a decade or so too.

I mean, not everyone had healthcare before, so I'm not entirely convinced every human NEEDS to have healthcare.

I mean, we never really had an immigration policy before, so I'm not entirety convinced every country NEEDS to have an immogration policy.

I mean, we never had to rehabilitate our prison population before, so I'm not entirely convinced that every prisoner NEEDS to have an education.

etc. etc.

But your first points were pretty good.