Is there any intention of implementing a system to obtain edges to the degree that many of us had come to enjoy?

The argument that it gave vets an advantage is not a very solid argument. Vet's will always have an advantage, and this isn't something that can be remedied.

The fact of the matter is, a lot of vets myself included enjoyed edges. If you brought methods of obtaining edges back, and or added new methods it would likely result in more people playing.

adding incentive's that draw vets to play is good for the pbase because, vets are the ones running newbies around in-game for a lot of their "1st's".

Frankly, the gutting of the edge system over time by Umiron was largely met with negative reaction. It was, and remains a hugely unpopular change. I hope that the replacement staff addresses the fact that a widely well received method of character customization was removed without any type of replacement.

NT

I have seen new players on this forum and the other forum. They ask questions, they go back and forth with other players, and they seem to put a lot of effort into learning the game. Unless they are vets taking the time to pose as newbies, we have new players.

CF will always have new players.

The challenge is to keep them playing...

Way back when OBS/EXPL gave edge points, you could level a shifter to 51 and you were able to pick roll the bones/spin the wheel simply based off pre-30 OBS/EXPL bonus and level to 51 bonus.

Now you literally get neither of these. I think these edges should be free regardless but to actually have neither of them available without RoleXP/ImmXP/CommerceXP/etc is really sad.

The current state of edge points is really, really sad.

>The argument that it gave vets an advantage is not a very
>solid argument. Vet's will always have an advantage, and this
>isn't something that can be remedied.

False. It is a solid argument and it can be remedied by diminishing the sum of advantages a vet can gather over newbies.


>The fact of the matter is, a lot of vets myself included
>enjoyed edges. If you brought methods of obtaining edges
>back, and or added new methods it would likely result in more
>people playing.

Or it can have the exact opposite effect: as one realize how complicated and time consuming is this game, it is likely (and I suspect it is why playerbase is going down) he'll go somewhere else where he feels he can do more than just not dying to pk fights...


>adding incentive's that draw vets to play is good for the
>pbase because, vets are the ones running newbies around
>in-game for a lot of their "1st's".

I've been playing CF for almost 10 years and I rarely seen vets taking time to run newbies around... I think it's better to bet on making the game a bit less complicated to attract new players


>Frankly, the gutting of the edge system over time by Umiron
>was largely met with negative reaction. It was, and remains a
>hugely unpopular change. I hope that the replacement staff
>addresses the fact that a widely well received method of
>character customization was removed without any type of
>replacement.

False: there's a lot of positive comments on the change. With all the classes, races, legacies, virtues, thief points, etc. we have plenty of customization available. I don't think losing the customization possibilities offered by edges is up to the benefits it can bring to player base. Not only newbies will find it less complicated but there's vet who, like myself, find it very interesting not having to see the same room/mob again and again to gather edges points.

>False. It is a solid argument and it can be remedied by diminishing the sum of advantages a vet can gather over newbies.

False. It is not a solid argument. In fact many vets didn't spend any time farming those edge points anyway. Players like shamanman are notorious for rushing to hero and bringing a lot of action to the hero range. Even without those edge points they still kicked a lot of ass.


>Or it can have the exact opposite effect: as one realize how complicated and time consuming is this game, it is likely (and I suspect it is why playerbase is going down) he'll go somewhere else where he feels he can do more than just not dying to pk fights...

Like I said, those players could look at the vets who didn't farm the edge points ans till end up being some of the toughest characters. It would show them if you want to really be deadly you need to focus on things like timing and strategy rather than farming/grinding. Because until someone knows timing and tactics, no amount of edge points are going to help them land PKs.


>I've been playing CF for almost 10 years and I rarely seen vets taking time to run newbies around... I think it's better to bet on making the game a bit less complicated to attract new players

I've been playing since 1997, and I've had my newbie hands lead around the game lots of times and many of those times the person showing me around was an obvious vet. About half of those times we were evil too. Taking out a few edge points wouldn't exactly make the game less complicated, since they're still edges.


>False: there's a lot of positive comments on the change. With all the classes, races, legacies, virtues, thief points, etc. we have plenty of customization available. I don't think losing the customization possibilities offered by edges is up to the benefits it can bring to player base. Not only newbies will find it less complicated but there's vet who, like myself, find it very interesting not having to see the same room/mob again and again to gather edges points.

That is not entirely true. Yes there was a lot of positive comments, but there was also a lot of negative comments and even some players stopped playing all together because of the changes. There is a lot of customization available, yes, but there are also six classes with absolutely no way to customize outside of role and descriptions. And people need to stop saying they "have" to grind and farm every possible edge point possible. Nobody ever put a gun to anyone's head and said farm these points or you die. Having two more edges than other people is not that big of a deal. You can play priests now without needing empowerment but there are penalties. By your logic those penalties should not be there, like the edge points shouldn't be there available to be farmed. But I don't hear anyone making a plight to get the imms to remove those penalties. In fact people seem quite happy about having the option.

I guess the problem is that you're so focused on what you loose with this change that it make you unable to see what you you can gain from it...

Yes you're loosing customization possibilities. But I think the main reason you customize your chars is to be more deadly and/or survivable right? Edges help vet's, who usually are better at PK than newbies, to become harder to kill or escape from in PK fights.

I think this change is, on the long run, better for playerbase growing because it advantages newbies (and less talented players) in their chances to succeed at pk. That what I mean by a more "balanced" game.

What you have to understand is that the best way to keep someone interested in a thing-game-sport he's learning (and God knows there's a lot to learn to be good in CF!) is to make sure the student experiment some "success" in his learning process. I know many thinks that surviving at PK is a form of success and it's true. But believe me, "surviving at someone trying to pk you" satisfies one to a certain point. After a while, as a CF player, you want to be able to pk someone sometimes. That is why I will always be for changes favoring newbies and less skilled players over vet's because pking a vet is one of the hardest thing to do in CF. The very common equation being "vet kill newbie".

I think the actual PB has a lot of very good CF players making it very hard for newbies and less talented players to experiment the success at PKing someone. As PK is a major aspect of the game, it is easy to understand why less and less players spend their limited leisure time playing CF when they're almost never able to pk someone.

So yes you loose customizations and powers lots of edges use to give you but, on the other side, you also give a chance to have a bigger PB. So in the end, you have to ask yourself what you like better: having a uber char in a 10 PB game or a char with less powers in a 50-100 PB game (like CF used to be in early 2000's)?

Vets know which edges are good. Newbies don't. Fastest way to close the gap in familiarising newbs with edges would be to ensure all chars had quite a lot.

As tsal, I took a few crap edges and it didn't matter because I had lots. As a newbie, those could have been my only edges. (As a vet I wouldn't try them if only a few are going to be available.)

If getting rid of obs edge points, say, why not give all chars ep equal to 2/3rds of the direct obs ep and half the ep from the bonus you get if you get enough obs exp before a certain level?

Also, that means that if a vet is getting more ep from other sources, as is likely, that extra benefit will be proportionately less.

Actually the fastest way to close the gap is removal of edges all together. That simplifies everything including the number of helpfiles a new playerneeds to read or understand. Pre edges everything was far simpler in terms of the mechanics involved.

Everything else is unnecessary fluff.
Do it.

NT

https://twitter.com/carrionfields/status/754059236972175360

That was a human invoker, and in no way a dwarven cleric.

Now everyone go pay attention to something else as I spam-practice my dwarf invoker.

NT

NT

Since you've stepped back, your posts are more light-hearted and seem to come from a happy place.

Since it appeared at previous times you were near popping a blood vessel, I think this is an improvement.

Lower your CF time and get yourself a rattle: it's good for tension release.

>Actually the fastest way to close the gap is removal of edges
>all together. That simplifies everything including the number
>of helpfiles a new playerneeds to read or understand. Pre
>edges everything was far simpler in terms of the mechanics
>involved.

We could also set all skills to a fixed percent, remove gear, and have galadon as the only area.

But newbs like improving a character and trying stuff out as much as the next guy.

Hell, I can remember when levelling felt like a massive achievement. And pieces of gear with plus 2 damage made me feel invincible (until I fought a player instead of a mob).

I enjoyed reading your logs as Tsalanta (especially those with Sodsob) and I think you're a talented a player.


But this ...?

>We could also set all skills to a fixed percent, remove gear, and have galadon as the only area.


I mean how this comment contribute to the present discussion?

Not only it brings nothing new but you repeat what Murphy said on his post "Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Thief": an idea you don't want to happen.

I respond to your post mainly because it gives me the occasion to correct a little mistake I made in my response to Murphy:


"Maybe you should lower your CF forum time and get yourself a rattle: it's good for tension release..."

>I enjoyed reading your logs as Tsalanta (especially those
>with Sodsob) and I think you're a talented a player.
>
>
>But this ...?
>
>>We could also set all skills to a fixed percent, remove gear,
>and have galadon as the only area.
>
>
>I mean how this comment contribute to the present discussion?
>
>
>Not only it brings nothing new but you repeat what Murphy said
>on his post "Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Thief": an idea you don't
>want to happen.
>
>I respond to your post mainly because it gives me the occasion
>to correct a little mistake I made in my response to Murphy:
>
>
>"Maybe you should lower your CF forum time and get yourself a
>rattle: it's good for tension release..."
>
>
>
>
>

I'm trying to make a specific point in response to "the best way to even things out is to remove edges". Applying that logic you would remove lots of other things, and my example was meant to highlight the absurdity of applying it. You would indeed make things more even but it would be less fun. Hence I think that making it easier for newbs to have edges is a better solution. Not removing them. In fairness, I think the imm was making a logical point rather than a serious suggestion though.

Is to think the players and Imms who support this change have no common sense. There's definetely others things we could do to even the game, does it mean they all have to be done?

When you say :

"Applying that logic you would remove lots of other things, and my example was meant to highlight the absurdity of applying it."

it really makes me wonder about your capacity to keep a "flexible way of thinking" (or, in other words, "common sense") when you're not happy about the way things are going.


Bottom line is I disagree with you. Making it easier for newbies to get edges is not a better solution. I totally understand how it's less fun for you but removing edges makes it easier for newbies (and less talented players) to land a kill on you and the other vets. And, of course, it means a bit more fun for them.

The big question underlying this change is the following: who should we try to satisfy the most to enlarge PlayerBase: vets or newbies & less talented players?

You do realise I don't play, right? But that I want to see cf succeed?

Therefore I don't stand to gain from whichever way the decision goes and have completely altruistic motives?

I feel like you may think I'm arguing for something that would be to my benefit.

Also, removing edges would not make it easier to land a kill on me. It would make it harder for most builds, and easier for only 1 I can think of (because an edge is the best counter to striking the shadows' footfall). But a newbie won't be killing me either way. Surely you can't believe that vets need edges to survive newbies?

Also, it doesn't matter whether you apply the logic of removal to even things out to everything or just a few things. The point is that in each case the variety is a good thing. Sure, it is harder for newbs to optimise gear choice, but that doesn't mean they don't have fun when they find a piece of gear a little better than what they had before. Or that they don't love a piece that progs even if they'd be better with one that doesn't etc.

You don't find it pertinent to take position on the "big question" of my previous post... wich disapoint me.

And again, I disagree with you: variety is not always a good thing.

If your big point is that variety is not necessarily a good thing, I can agree with that. However, where I disagree with you is that giving everyone more edges (ie giving newbs more and leaving vets unchanged) has more downsides to the newb than upsides.

Your examples, to me, suggest that you think vets need edges more than newbs, but I'd argue they need them less. Indeed your specifics seem to be examples of ones that help a newb more than a vet.

>If your big point is that variety is not necessarily a good
>thing, I can agree with that. However, where I disagree with
>you is that giving everyone more edges (ie giving newbs more
>and leaving vets unchanged) has more downsides to the newb
>than upsides.

It's not my big point.


>Your examples, to me, suggest that you think vets need edges
>more than newbs, but I'd argue they need them less. Indeed
>your specifics seem to be examples of ones that help a newb
>more than a vet.

I absolutely do not think vets need edges more than newbies.


Obviously you do not understand what I'm talking about...

So better stop the discussion right here.

>Obviously you do not understand what I'm talking about...

It seems that many people don't. Because you failed at making it comprehensively, I guess.

>It seems that many people don't. Because you failed at making
>it comprehensively, I guess.


Maybe your guess is right, maybe it's not.
But again, like you often do, you verbalize an opinion without bringing facts to support it...


Don't be surprised if I don't loose too much time with you...

>Don't be surprised if I don't loose too much time with you...

Please don't, because my life depends on it.

and I have an opinion so listen to me !
I'm too lazy to explain you why I think the things I do,
but it doesn't matter listen to me !
I also like to $hit on people to feel better about myself,
it's bad I know, but it gives you an occasion to listen to me !
My name is Kstatida and sometime I should just shut the #### up,
But obviously I can't, I need you to know I exist, so listen to me !!!

Thank you. I will carry on.

>>The argument that it gave vets an advantage is not a very
>>solid argument. Vet's will always have an advantage, and
>this
>>isn't something that can be remedied.
>
>False. It is a solid argument and it can be remedied by
>diminishing the sum of advantages a vet can gather over
>newbies.

Sorry, but you're wrong. A newbie isn't going to know where to get the 'best' gear at his level, nor know the vuln system inside/out. Probably also won't max his skills prior to 20, or have ready access to the preps/recall/teleport/etc that I will at 20. Newbie is going to get pwnd whether I have 0 edges, or 100 edges.

>>The fact of the matter is, a lot of vets myself included
>>enjoyed edges. If you brought methods of obtaining edges
>>back, and or added new methods it would likely result in
>more
>>people playing.
>
>Or it can have the exact opposite effect: as one realize how
>complicated and time consuming is this game, it is likely (and
>I suspect it is why playerbase is going down) he'll go
>somewhere else where he feels he can do more than just not
>dying to pk fights...
>

Edges were optional, and really only gave 1 vet an "edge" over another vet. The "true newbies" are just speedbumps, and will remain so because of what I said above. There is no edge that offers any advantage that doesn't pale in comparison to a solid understand of game mechanics, combined with equipment/prep knowledge and class knowledge.

>>adding incentive's that draw vets to play is good for the
>>pbase because, vets are the ones running newbies around
>>in-game for a lot of their "1st's".
>
>I've been playing CF for almost 10 years and I rarely seen
>vets taking time to run newbies around... I think it's better
>to bet on making the game a bit less complicated to attract
>new players
>

I've been playing for 21 years, does that mean that my opinion that edges were 'good' for the game is more valid than your opinion?

>>Frankly, the gutting of the edge system over time by Umiron
>>was largely met with negative reaction. It was, and remains
>a
>>hugely unpopular change. I hope that the replacement staff
>>addresses the fact that a widely well received method of
>>character customization was removed without any type of
>>replacement.
>
>False: there's a lot of positive comments on the change. With
>all the classes, races, legacies, virtues, thief points, etc.
>we have plenty of customization available. I don't think
>losing the customization possibilities offered by edges is up
>to the benefits it can bring to player base. Not only newbies
>will find it less complicated but there's vet who, like
>myself, find it very interesting not having to see the same
>room/mob again and again to gather edges points.

Yeah, QHCF was just overwhelmed with 'positive' feedback to these changes(obvious sarcasm). I also imagine that the onslaught of praise for these changes is what drove Umiron to deletion.

>I also imagine that the
>onslaught of praise for these changes is what drove Umiron to
>deletion.

I laughed

I think when you actually play CF you are good for the game. When you are being a forum monster, its not really helpful. I use the term monster because you tunnel vision so hard on your own view that its impossible for anyone to actually have a discussion with you (which is something that a lot of people suffer from so its not meant as a personal jab).

Both your original post and the response you are chastising above have some good points in them, they just come from different camps of what is best for the game. It doesn't make either one "right" or "wrong" its just a different perspective.

>>>The argument that it gave vets an advantage is not a very
>>>solid argument. Vet's will always have an advantage, and
>>>this isn't something that can be remedied.
>>
>>False. It is a solid argument and it can be remedied by
>>diminishing the sum of advantages a vet can gather over
>>newbies.
>
>Sorry, but you're wrong. A newbie isn't going to know where
>to get the 'best' gear at his level, nor know the vuln system
>inside/out. Probably also won't max his skills prior to 20,
>or have ready access to the preps/recall/teleport/etc that I
>will at 20. Newbie is going to get pwnd whether I have 0
>edges, or 100 edges.


I think you're right for a total newbie: 0 or 100 edges make little difference. My argument is more for the low and medium skilled player who's able to escape dying and feels ready to try pking. Let's take the example of that Necro or AP who has a great chance to seal a kill if he can land "sleep". Having the "Remain conscious" edge is an advantage the vets have. And we know vets know better how to have more edges than less skilled players.



>>>The fact of the matter is, a lot of vets myself included
>>>enjoyed edges. If you brought methods of obtaining edges
>>>back, and or added new methods it would likely result in
>>more people playing.
>>
>>Or it can have the exact opposite effect: as one realize how
>>complicated and time consuming is this game, it is likely
> and I suspect it is why playerbase is going down) he'll go
>>somewhere else where he feels he can do more than just not
>>dying to pk fights...
>>
>
>Edges were optional, and really only gave 1 vet an "edge" over
>another vet. The "true newbies" are just speedbumps, and will
>remain so because of what I said above. There is no edge that
>offers any advantage that doesn't pale in comparison to a
>solid understand of game mechanics, combined with
>equipment/prep knowledge and class knowledge.


Once again you're right for true newbies. Once again I think the edges favours vets over medium skill players as I described with Necro and AP example.



>>>adding incentive's that draw vets to play is good for the
>>>pbase because, vets are the ones running newbies around
>>>in-game for a lot of their "1st's".
>>
>>I've been playing CF for almost 10 years and I rarely seen
>>vets taking time to run newbies around... I think it's
>better to bet on making the game a bit less complicated to attract new players
>>
>
>I've been playing for 21 years, does that mean that my opinion
>that edges were 'good' for the game is more valid than your opinion?


Not at all. You think Edges is a good thing to attract new players or keep the players playing CF. I think it (among other things) does the opposite effects. We can't know who's of us is right because we havent seen the numbers post edge-abolition. But one thing we know is CF players numbers are going down over the years.



>>>Frankly, the gutting of the edge system over time by Umiron
>>>was largely met with negative reaction. It was, and remains
>>>a hugely unpopular change. I hope that the replacement staff
>>>addresses the fact that a widely well received method of
>>>character customization was removed without any type of replacement.
>>
>>False: there's a lot of positive comments on the change. With
>>all the classes, races, legacies, virtues, thief points, etc.
>>we have plenty of customization available. I don't think
>>losing the customization possibilities offered by edges is up
>>to the benefits it can bring to player base. Not only newbies
>>will find it less complicated but there's vet who, like
>>myself, find it very interesting not having to see the same
>>room/mob again and again to gather edges points.
>
>Yeah, QHCF was just overwhelmed with 'positive' feedback to
>these changes(obvious sarcasm). I also imagine that the
>onslaught of praise for these changes is what drove Umiron to
>deletion.


QHCF is not the only CF forum and bottom line is : the majority of human race is afraid and/or hate changes.

I suppose there's a limit to the #### and bad vibes a person can take....

Edges gave me a lot of advantage, but I've always considered myself to have medium skill at best, and often not even that.

Out Of Point of my post.

I am also known as Under the Radar, too.

Remain conscious gives you a small chance of avoiding being slept. This won't matter to a vet because:

They won't let their opponent have the opportunity to cast it in the first place
If unable to do that, they will take precautions to mitigate being slept
Will have prepared sufficiently to have a good chance of surviving being slept

All the edge does is make a % of situations where you might have died to sleep into ones where you can survived - the vet's advantage is knowing how to avoid those situations in the first place.

So this edge being in the game generally makes things easier for those who do get into such situations.

>Remain conscious gives you a small chance of avoiding being
>slept. This won't matter to a vet because:
>
>They won't let their opponent have the opportunity to cast it
>in the first place
>If unable to do that, they will take precautions to mitigate
>being slept
>Will have prepared sufficiently to have a good chance of
>surviving being slept
>
>All the edge does is make a % of situations where you might
>have died to sleep into ones where you can survived - the
>vet's advantage is knowing how to avoid those situations in
>the first place.
>
>So this edge being in the game generally makes things easier
>for those who do get into such situations


Edges generaly don't help vet to better survive at pk?

You might have a point with Remain Conscious but what about Herbalist and Expert Herbalist?

Vet is going to nail you as a ranger without ever using herbs, because you don't really survive two ambushes in a row.

What gives a vet advantage over a newbie is is not edges - it's knowledge and instincts. Knowledge about edges included.

I've been playing a ranger with literally no edges (because bug, thanks Murphy for reporting it one year after I condied) as my first character. And the character was totally edge independent, killing people regardless of his and their edges. The only people I did not kill were... vets, who just didn't go there on my conditions (well some of them did, but they did so intentionally). Edges were definitely not relevant.

Never taken that edge. I just avoid places where I can be summon-trapped and carry 2 teleports and 5 heal potions in inventory just before I fight one of these.

I also have good stat coverage so I live to flee.

Imho the edge is only likely to postpone death. I'd prefer to more reliably avoid it through tactics.

Worth noting that elystan's ap survived getting slept by mine and shaapa's survived getting slept by me about 13 times out of 15. He only died on those 2 because I was able to find him after his teleport. 2 teleports and 5 heal potions and he'd have survived every time.

So are you saying edges generaly don't help vet to better survive at pk?

You might have a point with Remain Conscious but what about Herbalist and Expert Herbalist?

If anything, the caustic playerbase killed my desire to play more than that.

That being said, neither is the reason I am not playing now. Just can't get into CF nor can I truly find the time to play a "real" character.

Aka from suffering comes edgelightenment

What are the ranges of edges players should generally be able to accrue (independent of excessive imm xp and the like) through normal playing?
If you look at it as a cost scoring for example
high edge = 8
mid edge = 5
low edge = 3
What is the point range that players would want to reliably receive vs. what to the Imms view as reasonable?

I don't think a char needs 100 points in that theoretical system. I'd say maybe 30-40 would be a good average. If I could take 4 high cost edges on a char, and 1-2 mid or low ones, I'd be more than happy. I could prioritize having more middle edges vs. fewer costly ones. Players would (and rightly should) have to engage in some cost benefit thought when making edge selections. Maybe not to the degree they currently have to, but in the original system with PK EP it was almost non-existent, because you could always amass more EP so easily.

Umi's removal of PK EP was generally viewed favorably, since it definitely fostered #### behavior by players.
Umi removing OBS/Explore was very favorable, just the lack of an immediate source of replacement EP annoyed people.

Umi's removal of PK EP was generally viewed favorably, since it definitely fostered #### behavior by players.

Umi removing OBS/Explore was very favorable, just the lack of an immediate source of replacement EP annoyed people.

...there was no need to farm PKs for edgepoints or engage in questionable behavior. Because you could get enough by exploring.

The staff fostered PK farming themselves -- by thinning out other ways to get edges. And then they "fixed" it by removing edges for PK. I say, it is a clever scheme to get rid of edges altogether.

I disagree though. People didn't farm PK EP because they didn't know the actual accrual system beyond PKs= EP, they had no idea about level based and such. Engaging in PK wasn't a farming behavior by the PB initially, it was just an accrued ancillary benefit that came from PKing.

Only once the system was known did people people attempt to farm it, as they would have no matter what obs/explore yielded in terms of EP (unless it awarded so many you could take every available edge)

You can't actually believe players would ever think they have enough edges to the point they wouldn't farm EP reward systems if they were able to and knew how. Some wouldn't, but the min/max style definitely would (it's an advantage, or it's greater customization, or whatever reason they choose to). If they can amass 5 more edges by engaging in behavior X with no downside, they're engaging in behavior X.

There's no such thing as "enough" edges to a player. I had 28 edges on Salyeris and 26 on Allysia, and if I did a discuss and could take another edge I thought might be useful on either of them I would have. I didn't say that's enough, I'm not taking any more edges even though I am able to. And I doubt any single player would say they wouldn't either. They might save for a more expensive edge, but they're not forgoing selecting another edge altogether after some point.

Twist fostered (inadvertently perhaps) PK farming with his detailing of the system. It's difficult to argue that wasn't a result which led to the necessity of altering (or in this case nuking) the PK EP system.

All heroes farm PKs, that's sort of what you do in CF, since PK is a big part of the game. But prior to Twist, people were not as often sitting at set level tiers trying to amass PKs because of the bonus EP it conferred, multi killing or otherwise in engaging in behavior they otherwise would not but for the sake of the EP benefit. Players, by their own admission, have compulsions to try to maximize these things far too often.

The only way your idea would make sense was if there were so few edges available that a player could run out of edges to take, so there was no bonus to farming because you'd end up in the same place. But even then people likely would, because they'd want to accrue those benefits as early as possible.

And as it stands, most characters have a minimum of maybe 35-40 edges they can choose from.

EP transparency was clamored for, but the end result once it was given was nothing but players looking for ways to maximize the system.

Too much transparency into edges probably did more harm to the system then anything else.

I recall making spreadsheets with my kill counts per level bracket so I could maximize my EP's and wouldn't level - or do anything else but pk - until I hit those numbers.

But I've had 31 edges with Einrai, who wasn't even much of a PK-er. There were definitely more edges I wanted to take, and half of the edges I did take were total crap (I had no way of knowing beforehand!)

Still, as you get to 20+ edges there is less incentive to engage in questionable activities, as the benefits diminish compared to potential fallout.

Also I never farmed PKs at low levels -- no point in spending 400 hours farming only to have your character age-die at level 41. Lifespans are too short!

I have long been of the belief that Twist's detailing of the exact means to get edge points was one of the worst blows to the system we could have done. Before that, you explored because you wanted to explore - or you thought that it was the most useful thing to do at a time and might get you rewards. You PK'd because it got you shinies, and you knew at some point, being involved in PKs gets you edges, etc. After the detailing, which as mentioned was requested (and I'm generally a fan of transparency), it became all about getting every last edge point possible from that list.

Secondly, the concept that players as a whole will ever be "satisfied", has long proven to be false. XP rates were increased, they're still slow. Bonuses, bah not enough. XP rates were increased even more. We're at a point now where people can and have power-levelled from creation to hero between my logins, and by and large I at least log in daily at least just to check in. No person in the game has ever said "Nah, I'm cool with just these two powers. Don't throw me that cool new toy, too". So at some point, you more or less need to decide what amount of toys you want to allow for customization, and have that as the standard. You lose all sense of customization if all paladins have all four dedications, or shamans every path, etc.

The two biggest issues with any sort of new edge system currently are:

1) Having someone actually rewriting the code to enact whatever ideas have been come up with.
2) Creating a system that encourages positive behavior from the playerbase, without creating something that can be exploited through means that negate the point of the system. So far, the only concrete way we've found in that sense has been putting more and more of the system back in the hands of Imms, which has its own issues of presence and perceived favoritism.

>2) Creating a system that encourages positive behavior from
>the playerbase, without creating something that can be
>exploited through means that negate the point of the system.
>So far, the only concrete way we've found in that sense has
>been putting more and more of the system back in the hands of
>Imms, which has its own issues of presence and perceived
>favoritism.

What if you were to create a nomination system, where every week/two weeks/months players could cast a vote for a character they thought was the all around best, and each winner received an amount of EPs. Limit the voting to characters above an arbitrary level or hour mark, with another check for activity (no maintaining five sockpuppets for the voting). Would need some imm oversight for repeat IPs. Same character can't win within some arbitrary number of votes.

Maybe go a step further and force each character to vote for a member of another/opposing cabal. The abusive powergaming move would be to vote for either the strongest member of the enemy a diametrically opposed cabal (mage-light Outlanders voting en masse for a Rager or Imperials voting for an evil Tribunal), or just organizing support for the weakest, most useless member of your enemy with the expectation they won't be worth much more with a bonus edge.

Characters in weaker/smaller cabals have more opportunities to win the vote. There's a likely increased downside to uncaballed characters, but they already have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Taking some of it out of the imms' hands would help with the perception of presence and favoritism. Role contests are already fairly regular with some decent prizes being handed out. Giving players an equivalent, judging by all aspects of a character's play, wouldn't be wildly absurd, and awards of EPs are relatively minor compared to some role contests rewards.

I'm just spitballing. Disregard at your leisure.

The ole Favorite Character Challenge! Maybe I will start running it with a little more regularity. In the past the rewards from it have typically been things like long descs for chars and the sort. I actually like this idea a fair amount and may start trying to fine tune on some guidelines for it in the near future.

The system will likely break and players will bitch about it being broken, no matter how you try to implement it. CFers are quite persistent in trying to find ways to gain advantages, and bitching when others get what they do not.

Players won't try to game a system where the reward is a custom long (which is an awesome reward).
But if it was EP, you have to assume they will.
It would be naïve to think players don't speak outside the game, and that they couldn't quite easily manipulate such votes, even with controls in place.

If you think players to be cheating shmucks.

In fact EPs for favorite character contests are good and even may be automated, because if you look at the past favorite character votes, they were awarded with edges or even legacies I think, and characters who won them were all awesome (I remember Marintok and Tanzer, perhaps Gaspare and Daphedee won it too).

So this definitely promotes awesome playstyle and is definitely a way to go.

And in general, this is a way of reward which makes min/maxers lean towards behavior which is liked by people. Totally vicious way of abusing our greed for power.

NT

So many familiar names, I can't believe I was gone for 10 years.

That means I've been playing CF for 11 years. UGH.

I started in 99 and I thought I was the youngest of the Pittsburgh crew.

Yeah...how the mighty have fallen.

what wasn't known was the additional PK # by that level-specifics.

So, you could have removed those, and left the rest untouched,
that would basically nullify the Twist leak you deem so important
but still have players get edge points from PK.

But you didn't do that, you threw out the baby with the bathwater, and
now there is this unintentional (possibly) attempt to rewrite history with assumptions that don't make any sense whatsoever and overt simplifications.

Which makes me wonder if there are additional goals and agendas in IMM land, that are not discussed publicly.

If yes, do you still enjoy it?

If no, then why not?

In response to the last line of your post; there are a lot of things that the staff discusses among themselves. I think its silly to refer to them as goals or agendas, as its typically a lot of brainstorming ideas and potential avenues of improvement for the game.

My last serious character was Nyst and that was years ago. I've played very few chars since then, none reached midlevels since I deleted due to either frustration or boredom.

I stopped playing before the recent edge changes so I won't pretend
this is what drove me away. In fact it wasn't a single thing, but an amalgamation of little ones that over time made FUN << TEDIUM for me.
The recent changes didn't really help in that regard.

Still interested in CF, albeit from a different perspective. I think a custom OpenGL (or WebGL) client would be great for the game and something I'd like to tackle if I felt it could be done in a reasonable manner which isn't the case right now, since the game doesn't support MSDP.

Bahahahahahhaha.... Ohhhh man. I wish I had as much free time as you

And is definitely less intensive than playing mortals

I was referring to the amount of free time they're able to spend on Cf conspiracy rather than doing anything else at all. Discussion absolutely less intense.

There're imms, they delegate conspiracy dirty work to the followers and not micromanage.

That's how you do world-size conspiracies.

Who are these mythical players who used to level-sit and PK a lot for edge points and now they won't bother doing it anymore?

Correlation does not imply causation. Given that we all know 90%+ of the people who play the game regularly, I dare say that those who spent hundreds of hours PKing will keep on doing the same thing, edge points or not, cause they derive major enjoyment from PKing.

Believing that taking edge points away will cause ppl to change the way they have been playing the game for years on end, is a serious delusion (which seems to also have infected part of the IMM-base).

You also assume that Twist made matters worse, even though the specifics were known *pretty much*, long before the "leak". It doesn't take a genius to figure it out, and guess what, lots of people did.

>Who are these mythical players who used to level-sit and PK a
>lot for edge points and now they won't bother doing it
>anymore?

Well even KaguMaru, who is not the most relentless PKer around, has done it. Shows you the scale of the issue.

Maybe not the most successful one, but definitely most relentless.

I did it with tsalantha. Not to amass total pks but to hit 15 pks within each window.

From what I observed it is common.

He claims to have caused the imms to "fix" the game by removing those edge points. Is this not true? I should not forget he did mention they will likely implement a system to give those edges back, even though nobody on the staff has made that claim, and also the person who handled these kind of things with the code just quit. So I'm not sure why he now expects an overhaul of the code.

nt

Then if it does happen you'll be pleasantly surprised.
You are entitled to nothing in Carrion Fields. Nothing!

Certain builds or classes right now are really screwed over.

For example, shapeshifters who want to roll forms and certain warrior builds.

I can't name any edge I couldn't live without as a shapeshifter.
Any other class, there are "mandatory" edges.

And roll the bones is for the weak.