I wonder if character longevity factor was considered? Because removing obs/exp is definitely losing an incentive to push your character further (because you're reluctant to do the chore again with your next).

I started a new character, and man it is so much more relaxing when I know that exp/obs are just not there.

Sometimes I look at things on reflexes, and then thin "why do I do this? Relax, man". This has indeed become more enjoyable, even if it reduced the number of builds I'm inclined to try.

There are only so many variants of an evil giant who goes for permalag and you did them both.... You were already out of builds to try =).

See his storm mariner who deleted as soon as he learned bearcharge didnt lag. But thats his mo, and i like his persistence in searching out builds that take minimal effort to win with. Permalag is theeasiets way to do this.
I am surprised he hasnt played an orc yet, bash savage and cheapshot with a nice enslave rapes people.

Just you wait

This is gold. Would've spilt coffee if I had it )))

More of this.

There were some insanely expensive edges before, which were already nearly impossible to get. Obs/Explore were the only ways I could ever generate enough edge points to actually get them. With this change, the bulk of edge point availability is now gone, and therefore, those edges are now likely impossible to get barring several large helpings of Imm Xp.

Now that Commerce Xp is the only reliable way to earn EP, now the grind will be to complete all the quest to hunt X number of Y mob and earn some commerce xp at the end (a faster way to earn commerce than bartering until all such quests are done).

I can't tell you how much I hate this change. There is now no way to roll up a temp/throw away character for the purpose of testing out an edge that you have never taken before, since commerce Xp alone isn't going to generate enough EP to take some of the more expensive edges, and you're not going to be garnering much Imm Xp on a throw-away character.

I've just sat here for the last hour, reading the posts about this change, and SERIOUSLY considering leaving the game over this, since edges and the ability to use them to highly customize my characters was a MAJOR flavor enhancement to keep the game enjoyable for me. It's like you just took away all the sauce from my spaghetti, and now I'm left with plain noodles.

Even reading this, it sort of just goes to show some of the major problems we've had with edges. The obs/explore xp is gone (which is a huge issue people complained about grinding), and the response you're posting is now we've just made the grind worse because everyone's going to have to massively grind commerce xp.

From other posts, obviously this removal was a little unplanned and happened at a point we hadn't intended to due in part to other events, and didn't really have anything else prepared. Yes, it sucks. We're aware that people love their edges, and that there's not a lot left besides longevity or Imm xp to gain edges, and are discussing what sort of system should be in place so that characters can earn edges for multiple facets of CF, but also hopefully in a means that is neither a "grind" or exploitable, therefore missing the entire point of the edge system to begin with.

So yes, the sauce factory's shut down while we cook up an awesome, brand new sauce flavor. Rather than put our current sauce on clearance as a temporary fix, we're trying to get the factory up and running again.

Given that edges were initially designed to encourage a variety of play styles, I thought up this idea in the shower this morning. Please feel free to accept, tweak, or toss out any aspect of this idea. I put it out there to serve as a baseline concept to be modified or built upon as necessary.

Divide edges into categories such as PK empowering edges, RP empowering edges, PvE empowering edges, etc...

I realize in some cases, this type of classification is rather muddy, and the categories may need some deeper refinement than these suggestions, but let's just start with this as a base design for the purpose of describing the rest of my idea.

Since people didn't like the idea of strong PK'ers earning lots of edge points from PK to be spent on edges that just make them even STRONGER PK'ers (a problem I myself always resented, being a not-the-best-PK'er myself), or people just engaging in mindless, number-counting PK just to farm edge points; how about PK milestones earn you RP empowering edge points (or PvE empowering edge points) that can't be used to purchase edges that can clearly be used to enhance PK. Conversely, doing RP related things to earn edge points will earn the character PK empowering edge points (or PvE empowering edge points), so that the only way someone is going to get a PK power boost from edges is if they are genuinely roleplaying in an extra-PK fashion. So roleplaying a rager by slaughtering every mage in sight does not count toward earning PK-empowering edges, but standing over your mage victim's corpse and engaging in meaningful RP with the recently vanquished and doing so well enough to earn attention for it would definitely count as strong RP, and worthy of earning some PK-empowering edge points.

Doing PvE things, as represented previously by Obs/Explore would earn PvE-empowering edges or RP-empowering edges. This makes it so that
1.) People don't feel the need to "grind" PvE in order to feel competitive in PK, since any PvE action is unrelated to PK,
2.) People who don't care about PK but want to strengthen their survivability in PvE and who don't mind doing a little "grind" of areas they've already been through, can still have their cake just as they always have. These are not the people who are scripting observation and exploration just to farm edge points, since PvE focused players are actually DOING what they want to be doing. You're not going to find someone who loves PvE-gaming botting the very thing they're interested in doing. People only script-bot the stuff they can't stand. PK'ers are the ones script-botting the obs/explore because they don't give a crap about it, and don't really want to be bothered to do it, but have realized that doing it adds to their PK power, so they create a work-around, and set a script to do the thing they hate, but feel they need since everyone else is doing it also to boost their own PK power. The solution, then is to make the PKer-annoying PvE stuff incapable of boosting PK power. Now the PKer will feel no need to do the thing he hates, since he knows that none of his PK rivals will gain any PK power from it either.

Role Xp should NOT earn PK-empowering edge points, even though it's RP related, since anyone can write up a role. Just because you have a well written role, does not necessarily mean you're actually rolePLAYING. Role Xp should earn RP-empowering edge points, or PvE-empowering edge points.

Edge points from Imm Xp can probably be either wild-card edge points, usable for anything, or can be specified by the Observing-Imm who's doing the rewarding. For instance, Observing-Imm might see some cool RP going on, but recognizing that the dude is already wiping his PK range, Observing-Imm decides to reward RP_Only_Imm_Xp so that edge points gained are only RP-empowering edge points.

Or maybe Observing-Imm sees some good RP from newbie-guy who's getting his ass handed to him all the time, so Observing-Imm decides to reward PK_Only_Imm_Xp so that edge points gained are only PK-empowering edge points, to give newbie-guy a boost the next time badass-enemy-guy shows up to pick on him.

Or maybe Observing-Imm sees some cool RP from explorer-dude who has lost 4 con so far, trying to explore Yzekon solo. Explorer-dude is actually getting inside the place, but bad luck just seems to keep popping up, and there never seems to be sufficient players around when he's logged on to go there with help, so when Observing-Imm sees cool RP from explorer-dude, Observing-Imm decides to reward PvE_Only_Imm_Xp to give explorer-dude a better chance of surviving his endeavors.

Observing-Imm could also just simply reward Wild_Card_Imm_Xp that can be used for anything, if (s)he feels so inclined. From the player's perspective, the player would never know at the time what type of Imm Xp they are receiving. Eventually they'll go discuss with the guildmaster, and they'll see that there are some edge choices available that can boost PK, or RP, or PvE, according to what they've earned thus far, but won't know whether those were specified by the Imm Xp, or were from Wild_Card_Imm_Xp, or from other things they've done that didn't involve the Imm Xp. The benefit of handling Imm Xp like this, is that the player can choose the SPECIFIC reward he wants, while the Imm can still control the general category of reward (or not, if Wild_Card), vs just handing out an edge directly, which the player may or may not actually want.

Here are a few example of classifications of edges taken from the General Edges list:

Lucky = PvE or RP
Apt Learner = PvE or RP
Deep Pockets = PvE or RP
Strong Back = PvE or RP
Leader = RP
Dragonslayer = PvE
Extra Training = PvE
Battle Tested = PvE, RP, or PK
Low Light Vision = PvE
Antihero = RP, PvE, or PK
Transportation Sensitivity = PK
Mana Sensitivity = PvE or RP
Possessive = PK
Shrewd Trader = PvE or RP
Quick Healer = PvE or PK
Ehren Lord = PK
Evasive = PK
Last Breath = PvE or PK
Wise Recovery = PvE
Seasoned Traveler = PvE
Mana Flood = PvE
Mana Drought = PvE

Anything listed as "PvE or PK", "PvE, RP, or PK", or "RP or PK" means that generally speaking, this is a non-pk related edge, however, since there CAN be a use for it in PK-related situations, albeit a generally small one, a player is free to use his PK-empowering edge points to purchase it if he so desires. In these instances, though, it's generally going to be a better idea to use non-pk related edge points to purchase these. This concept of a single edge fitting into multiple categories might be too difficult to code and/or put into practice, so could be left out altogether if such is the case. I toss it out here as just a thought to be accepted, ignored, or tweaked as the Imms see fit.

Obviously, most class-specific edges are going to be PK-related, though I'm sure there are some that can likely fit into other categories. Moreover, for the implementation of this type of system, I think there should be more edges created, especially for the RP-empowering edges. As an illustration of a game-mechanic that is RP-empowering, you can look at shapeshifters gaining use of EMOTE while in form. I realize this is not currently an edge, but rather something unlocked by receiving Imm Xp; but it is definitely a RP-empowering mechanic. Perhaps this could be converted into an edge instead, or left as-is, but other edges in the same spirit could be created to fill out the RP-empowering edges category.

Concerning class-specific edges, some non-pk related edges that jump foremost to mind would be things like Student of Wards, Student of Virtue, and Student of Vice for conjurers. While I recognize that these DO help said conjurer in the PK arena in the sense that they are less likely to die to their own servitors and therefore are more likely to live and be able to follow through with PK actions, the aid to PK is more indirect than, say, the Skullcrusher edge. Also in the conjurer edges list, I would throw in Adept of Planar Rifts (possibly also Master of Planar Rifts), Astral Doubleback (DEFINITELY PvE!), Planar Courier (probably mostly RP, but possibly PvE also), Celestial Affinity, Fiendish Affinity, Indifference Affinity, and Underphase. I would also guess that many healer edges would classify as PvE rather than PK, but could also be purchased with PK-empowering edge points, if the Imms decide to allow such flexibility.

The whole purpose of this type of system is to encourage a diversity of play styles by rewarding desirable actions in one play style with rewards that encourage a different play style. This cross-rewarding should serve to maintain balance in all areas of play without heavy-loading the PK aspect, which has always been the driving force of controversy over edges from their inception. I mean seriously, who is going to go out to farm PK just so they can gain colorful emotes, or something like that (probably not this, since it's already a Herald power, but you get the idea). And if you want a boost to your PK power, you're going to actually have to roleplay for real, not just be a PK monster, or script-bot Observation/Exploration.

I do think there needs to be some way to earn PK-empowering edge points other than Immortal intervention, but exactly how this should be handled, I really couldn't say. I DO, however, think that it needs to be somehow linked to RP related things, since that's really the primary focus of this game.

PK edges are why people loved the edge system and you want to make them even harder to get? You're completely out of touch with reality my friend.

I'm not talking about making PK edges harder to get. I'm talking about making them earned via RP related things, rather than PK numbers or "grindy" things. The whole reason that edges have been getting nerfed more and more since they went in is because people have been so obsessed with getting PK edges that they have tossed RP completely out the window. Rather than PK'ing for RP reasons, they start engaging in number-crunchy PK, even to the point of virtually ignoring RP just to pad their PK stats to max their edge point gains. Instead of having a character engage in exploring their world because the character is actually interested in exploring the exotic, mysterious, and dangerous locations of Thera, the player tosses out a script to do the whole thing for them, then walks away from the computer while the bot mindlessly moves the character around and looks at everything. The players who have been the biggest drivers of getting edges nerfed to the point they have been are the hardcore-PK crowd. Those same people are now actually HAPPY to have a situation where NO ONE has edges, rather than face the possibility that someone else has edges they don't have, simply because the other guy was willing to do something they themselves were unwilling to do. The system I'm suggesting fixes that. This game is RP mandatory. If you don't like to RP, then this isn't the game for you in the first place, and you should probably just go elsewhere. Since RP is mandatory, then make the PK edges be earned through RP. I'm describing here a system where PK edges are more available than they currently are in the present nerfed state, but are NOT earned through script-botting or mindless PK farming. In case you missed it, here's the final paragraph of my original post:

>>>>>I do think there needs to be some way to earn PK-empowering edge
>>>>>points other than Immortal intervention, but exactly how this
>>>>>should be handled, I really couldn't say. I DO, however, think
>>>>>that it needs to be somehow linked to RP related things, since
>>>>>that's really the primary focus of this game.

So again, let me reiterate, I'm not talking about making them HARDER to earn, just DIFFERENTLY earned, in a way that actually requires roleplaying. I suppose if you are someone who just wants to run around the game and mindlessly PK people with no roleplay attached, then yes, they will probably be nearly impossible for you to get. But if that's you, then you're playing the wrong game, my friend. At no time in the history of CF has this ever been acceptable. Even back in the 2nd Age and 3rd Age, your adrenaline filled heart would explode and con-kill you if you had too many PKs without enough leveling, and air/offense gnome murder shifters would get their wings clipped for too much PK without sufficient levels of roleplay involved. Nowadays, we instead had people farming PK for edges to make them even more badass PK machines, and script-botting area exploration rather than actually playing the game. These are RP-devoid actions, and it's these RP-devoid actions that have had edges almost removed from the game entirely. So rather than have them removed almost entirely, let's just tie the PK edges (the only ones driving the PK-devoid behavior) to RP-filled behavior that can't be farmed or botted.

why couldn't you shut down the current sauce factory AFTER the awesome brand new sauce flavor is implemented.

Bad sauce is better than no sauce.

Also, I loved getting obs/exp, and will continue doing it as it's an achievement of its own, not worse or better than PK numbers.

>Also, I loved getting obs/exp, and will continue doing it as
>it's an achievement of its own, not worse or better than PK
>numbers.

Hold on, I'll try to find a good therapist in Sibera

First, removing obs/exp -> edge points is great. "Forcing" people to run around and looking at the same things over and over with every char was stupid (not that I've really done it, but my chars tend to be long-lived and thus slowly accumulated obs/exp by "naturally" going to places, mostly at hero).

Second, where's a significant decrease in edge costs to compensate for the removal of large chunk of edge points, or some other way to accrue them?

I just don't get where imms get this anti-edge sentiment. They do not break the game in any way, everyone gets them and they offer a lot of fun customization and replay value. If some edges are "always taken", there are various ways to fix it. Create more (equally attractive) edges, so there's a real choice you have to make, because you cannot afford them all. Adjust their cost and/or effectiveness/functionality, or more or less incorporate them into the underlying skill/spell, or any combination of the above.

Why so stubbornly cling to the original design idea that edges have to be somehow "earned"? What is so inherently wrong in allowing all characters "free" customization? Good ways to do this have been posted by various players numerous times, e.g. tying edge points to levels, hours played and character age, commerce, imm xp, PK (both wins and losses, though somehow capped, and multi-killing/dying yielding none), etc. I can't see why edges can't be treated like legacies or thief points, i.e. a customization method except available for all classes.

From what I gather a great majority of players like and want edges (and not just a few). Personally I can only say that cutting down edge points drastically reduces my interest in rolling another character after my current is done. IMO, basically by killing customization you are killing the game. =(
​

that they simply don't work with the current vision of the IMMs (few edges).

Since they were never designed holistically or with a grand picture in mind,
but instead were grown organically (in many cases to fix perceived skill defficiencies,
in others to make certain skills not completely suck) really
the only model that works
with edges as they are now, is the model that
the IMMs hate, namely for a character
to have lots and lots of them.

I understand that there are exceptions for certain classes, that have extremely powerful edges,
but not all classes are like that. Most edges offer small improvements that really come
together when you combine them with others.

So since, overall and with few exceptions, we don't have a concept of various
"customization paths" , everyone will keep on doing what they were doing before,
accumulating edges with maybe the order of acquisition changing but the end
result not really.


Nothing wrong with that IMO, and I wish we'd get lots and lots of edge points
deterministically until we have a better system that introduces more variety and also some semblance of balance in customization.

There are still some characters alive who were made even before pk edge removal. When we'll see their pbf we'll see 10+edges.

No, there wasn't any customization. Everybody took the same edges in 95% of situations.

Now, when only can pick few (really few) there will be some customization.


Also i don't get it. What is the problem? You took six edges and your enemy took same six edges. Now you both have 2-3, but possibly different ones.


Though i don't agree about edge points for imm exp as i don't think imm exp is given without bias. Yes, i know that some players get punished by an imm as one character, then get rewarded by the same imm as another character. Though all things considered the speed of this rewards is silly too. So i suggest to remove edge points for imm exp too.

>Though i don't agree about edge points for imm exp as i don't
>think imm exp is given without bias. Yes, i know that some
>players get punished by an imm as one character, then get
>rewarded by the same imm as another character. Though all
>things considered the speed of this rewards is silly too. So i
>suggest to remove edge points for imm exp too.

At that point, we're down to pretty much "Here's your bag of X points, do what you want with them." I am aware there's a group that prefers this, but some of the point of having such a variety of means to get them in the past was to encourage different types of play. Unfortunately, they've turned into automation or a feel of a "necessary grind", neither of which was accomplishing that goal. Personally, while I'm fine with an end result of having a smaller amount to use overall, am less fond of the removal of different means of obtaining edge points. Honestly, I think one of the biggest mistakes that was made with edges was Twist detailing specifics that everyone now felt they had to min/max. I would like to see a return of some of the variety, but I expect it's something that would have to really show promise as a system to see happen.

As far as removing imm xp for edge points, at that point I feel like you'd just have Imms handing out edges, which would be even more disparate than immxp adding up to those rewards.

A) It can accumulate over lots of little deeds, vs. Imm randomly deciding something was awesome enough for a reward.
B) You can actually choose what reward you like, rather than getting something random.

Vanilla characters are less convenient and more annoying to play. More downtime, more skills missing, less versatility etc.

It adds some extra tactical component, sure, and ragers will be even easier to prey on, which can only be a good thing.

I'm somewhat concerned about the imbalance between existing heroes who have had the benefit of farming observe/explore, and everyone else.

It's more or less impossible to make it utterly "fair" for everyone when a change like this happens. Yes, they'll have an advantage for awhile, but given the average character turnover is probably something less than six months, it'll level itself out on its own. It's not the first time we've made adjustments to edges, or classes, etc.

In the meantime, I guess it's one more reason to keep some character longevity for a few people.

Assassins took a big hit, dexy warriors took a hit with some specs. Shapeshifters will lose on some options.

Did I like farming edgepoints? No, but folks, just as you now feel you have been freed from the grind, you also lost some customization and control.

Assassins are perfectly fine without any edges even though they likely saw the most benefit from them.

I really don't know which high dex Warriors would be affected... The weapon spec edges were all pretty mild, stacking edges related to regen was the best way to go with any warrior build.

Shifters are kind of the only real losers here because I don't think they can both spin and roll anymore and they would need to hit hero to do either.

Is v nice indeed. As was seven winds of hamsah.

Swashbuckler seems like a pretty important edge for this build. And it's ultra expensive.

Maybe some disagree but going from 20 dex to 23 for dodging seems pretty big for not having a face tanker.

They nerfed them after edges so you had to have edges to use. Now no way to play them at all.

Certain threads on the other forum probably influenced the decision to be done with them. When players solutions for min/maxxing toys is to automate and/or post details as to how to attempt to get around Immortal reference of such automation, then unfortunately toys tend to get taken away. See Silent Tower, Hell, sleeks, etc for a long running history of this.

Personally, I'd like to see a return of obs/explore XP at some point T in the future, but obviously there will have to be some form of new sleek system for it to be feasible.

As for longevity, there's still plenty of reason to keep your characters. Skills, levelling, I believe there is some aging reward in edgepoint specifics?, etc.

Could be a good change in the long run, I would point to this excellent post by starbright.

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,1087804,1087836#msg-1087836

I am glad for the change.

If I don't need to run through the tower of trothon and organia for the 100th time to farm edge points, I'm a much happier mudder.

As for toys being 'taken away' - I don't think that is a fair analogy. I think I can speak for most players when I say that this part of the game SUCKED and needed to be changed.

Maybe find a way to award edge points that doesn't involve a huge, pain in the ass, repetitive timesink. If I wanted to do that, I'd work more.

Some of us didn't mind the grind. Now there's just less things to do in game. I'm far more likely to just quit out if there's no one to pk (which is most of the time when I can play now days).

I hope edges become dramatically cheaper from this change. Otherwise just remove them all together.

Adjust a few class skills/spells and such to roll in some aspects of edges (perfect pitch please), and eliminate the EP system.

Just let every class have the equivalent of thief/shaman path, where they can say choose among 1 of 5, and whichever they elect gives them say 5-6 preset edges at set intervals of age and rank. Randomize them like forms. Keep prereqs in place.

So 25 you get 1 edge, low level
35 1 mid
45 1 mid
51 1 Low, 1 high
Mature 1 Low
Middle Aged 1 Mid
Old 1 High

There are honestly enough edges that no two characters would ever be the same. As you reflect on your experiences thus far you gain insight into XXXX.

And since obs and commerce have skills and edges tied to them, throw them in.
Seasoned Traveler at 20K exp
Shrewd Trader at 10K commerce
Stuff like that.

Since you guys listen and act upon whinging allow me to add mine. Remove edges altogether. Failing that; remove EP for commerce XP, ImmXP and retrievals as these are either a ridiculous grind or favouritism. Set EP per 10 levels or be done with the system.

Set amount of edge points per character.
Additionally edge points are serious "rewards".

Make edges cheaper, and allow 'paths' in edge trees, like TP's.

That way, you can be a regenerating warrior, or a cranialing warrior, but not a regenerating, cranialing warrior.

More customization not less please.

I don't like the rewards system much.

Plenty of people grind imm exp.

I'm all for spontaneous rewarding of rp or pk risk but not rewarding of contrived rp with an imm. That is farmable and is indeed farmed. I know players who design their role to farm imm exp.

nt

Does commerce XP still give edge points? The announcement made no mention of it but the help file now makes no reference to it.

No change here, but I did goof the helpfile. Will fix tonight.

Orcs have several key edges, that used to be a pain in the ass to get as a group, but you could do it if you put some moderate work into it. Then there was a change to edges based on popularity by class, and while it was still doable, you had to REALLY want to be able to get both spinebreaker and slaver, both edges I consider to be relatively vital to the class, along with a small handful of other edges based on adaptation. Then there was a further reduction in how much explore/observe helped out, and it became a really serious ####ing chore just to get spinebreaker and enslave on the same orc, and that's not even taking the other edges into account. Now there is another change, and since orcs don't even get haggle, they take it in the teeth again.

I'm not trying to piss all over what I think of as a good change for the majority of players, but seriously how about making some tweaks to orcs to compensate for what has been a systematic reduction of their ability to have any variety from edges, and a weakening of their power as a class.

I'm sad because I can't get five anymore.

Where do I begin?

slaver, backbreaker, compact frame, disease carrier, glutton, lasher
for just the *generic* ones. Arguably, same of these edges I'd even call entirely broken
due to how far-reaching they can be (in the hands of a good
player) in their in-game affects.

Slaver (opens up entirely new avenues of gameplay) and backbreaker (makes a very powerful skill to begin with even more powerful) specifically are downright silly and go against the 'small improvements' modicum that certain
IMMs have been espousing.

This is also another example that backs a point I've previously made,
re: edges being thrown together without any sort of long-term planning
or vision or cross-class balance, in many cases merely to fix perceived short-term deficiencies.