Alright, I put together a few ideas, including Zulg's recent assertion that there are limits to the numbers of Elites in Empire and came up with a New and Great Idea:

Tie the Big-Power Imperials in with donations("Big-Power" = Elite, Sect Leader, Emperor). First, the how. For this, I chose the "magic number" as 7, meaning, 7 Imperials will be able to have Elite+ powers. Given how few full maran, acolytes, etc. there are and the size of the playerbase in the hero range (where the lion's share of Big-Power characters are), I figured it would be reasonable. So, here's how it works:

#1 Sect in Donations = 1 Elite, 3 third echelons, Sect Leader gets to use "Special Power".
#2 Sect in Donations = 1 Elite, 2 third echelons, Sect Leader gets to use "Special Power"
#3 Sect in Donations = 0 Elite, 2 third echelons, Sect Leader does NOT get to use "Special Power"
#4 Sect in Donations = 0 Elite, 1 third echelon, Sect Leader does NOT get to use "Special Power"

Emperor:
a) If Emperor's Sect is #1 in Donations, Emperor gets his/her Sect's "Special Power" and the #2 and #3 Donating Sects' "Special Powers". Does not get the #4 Sect's "Special Power"
b) If the Emperor's Sect is NOT #1 in Donations, Emperor only gets his/her Sect's "Special Power" and the #1 Donating Sect's "Special Powers".

Make Sense?

OK. Now for the "Why?"
Well, Big-Imperial-Powers are very powerful. And that stunning Power is justified because it creates an incentive for people to roll up imperials, creating a larger playerbase for the cabal, and to fight with one another for the higher positions so they can get the Big-Imperial-Powers. By tying this Justification in with Donations, we create an even stronger RP reason for Sects to battle it out with one another, creating even stronger "Empire politics RP" that the IMMs love. This enhanced "Imperial Politics" RP is even further encouraged by stringently limiting the incentives - so that the Sect Leader/Emperor HAS to make an active choice over who to promote and demote - because that Sect Leader/Emperor's own Powers rely on that decision. There will be no more disatisfaction with promotion-happy-but-otherwise-powerful Emperors like Blitzenturt because the Emperor won't have a choice except to make demotions. Finally, I think right now there is an inflation among the highest echelons. It is extremely rare to find a non-Elite in hero range. And it is almost a given that out of every 2 Imperials you see online in hero range, one of them will be a Sect Leader.

Overall Donations can be assessed once a week so that the number of Elites and third Echelons don't fluctuate with too alarming frequency - and the current Donation total can be hidden until the next week's tally; so that there won't be a sudden flood of Donations near the week's talley.

Thoughts?

>Alright, I put together a few ideas, including Zulg's recent
>assertion that there are limits to the numbers of Elites in
>Empire and came up with a New and Great Idea:

New and Great...maybe not so much.

>Tie the Big-Power Imperials in with donations("Big-Power" =
>Elite, Sect Leader, Emperor). First, the how. For this, I
>chose the "magic number" as 7, meaning, 7 Imperials will be
>able to have Elite+ powers. Given how few full maran,
>acolytes, etc. there are and the size of the playerbase in the
>hero range (where the lion's share of Big-Power characters
>are), I figured it would be reasonable. So, here's how it
>works:

Big-Power Imperials are already tied in with personal donations.

>#1 Sect in Donations = 1 Elite, 3 third echelons, Sect Leader
>gets to use "Special Power".
>#2 Sect in Donations = 1 Elite, 2 third echelons, Sect Leader
>gets to use "Special Power"
>#3 Sect in Donations = 0 Elite, 2 third echelons, Sect Leader
>does NOT get to use "Special Power"
>#4 Sect in Donations = 0 Elite, 1 third echelon, Sect Leader
>does NOT get to use "Special Power"

Limiting the powers of three-quarters of a cabal based on donations? I don't think so. There are already a finite number of folks who can get those powers and I don't see your "New and Great" idea changing that except to make it so only one or two people get those powers.

>Emperor:
>a) If Emperor's Sect is #1 in Donations, Emperor gets his/her
>Sect's "Special Power" and the #2 and #3 Donating Sects'
>"Special Powers". Does not get the #4 Sect's "Special Power"
>b) If the Emperor's Sect is NOT #1 in Donations, Emperor only
>gets his/her Sect's "Special Power" and the #1 Donating Sect's
>"Special Powers".

Being Emperor means you get the benefits of all the Sects, not just the one you came from. Again...one person has these powers, I'm not worried about that.

>Make Sense?

So far, no.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

>>Alright, I put together a few ideas, including Zulg's
>recent
>>assertion that there are limits to the numbers of Elites in
>>Empire and came up with a New and Great Idea:
>
>New and Great...maybe not so much.
>

"Great" was just my attempt at Marketing.

Well, if you're ever tossing around more complaints about Empire Leaders not utilizing "Demotion" or "Anathema" much, re-consider that they never will unless their own power is somehow tied to effective use of those skills. That's just the way people are.

I never felt that something had to be "overpowered" to be "broken," but (1) I can respect yours and others' opinions that differ from mine and (2) I can only make helpful suggestions, anyway.

I appreciate the well thought out response and good luck!

Okay...it was new

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I don't think anything about Empire needs to be toned down. This is a cabal that just recently declared war on the only cabal in the game that it held a strong bond/alliance to.

There is no support for Empire anymore. Furthermore, it is not a facade. I have heard people say oh, but Outlanders war with everybody too! No, they don't. I call it a war when you are demanded, and it is policy, to take their cabal item.

Your system just takes the legs out from Empire, it would destroy the cabal. It wouldn't bring about more solid RP, or more politics within Empire, it would just flat out make people delete. Being a third echelon imperial at hero sucks.

"It is extremely rare to find a non-Elite in hero range"

The above statement is just wrong. There have been dozens, and there will be dozens of said cases. Urog, the current Emperor, had a good old time waiting to be Elite, and his RP is one of the best I've ever seen.

I (and I'm pretty sure I speak for the Imm staff) don't think
Empire is broken.

Speaking to the numbers of Imperials: The tides of who plays what
cabal, when, and how many hours day, will rise and fall. Last month,
Outlander was kicking major A$$ and this month Tribunal is on the
upswing. As for Empire numbers, we are actually a little light
right now. But we have something we've not had in awhile - Active
players. That is to say, people who log on for set amounts of time
each day. This is the first time I've seen this since coming over
to Empire. It makes us appear more powerful than we really are.


Speaking to the powers Imperials get: I'm going to refer to
my first line. I just don't think it's broke right now. The powers
are in line with what you have to put up with to get them.
1. Donations
2. Fear of Anathema
3. Bullseye Factor

In the right hands, I will admit, some of the powers can be VERY
powerful. But we can say this about just about any nice peice of
gear or nice skill/spell in the game.

Well there you have it, I posted more than I thought I was. Go me!


-Grurk

>Speaking to the powers Imperials get: I'm going to refer to
my first line. I just don't think it's broke right now. The powers
are in line with what you have to put up with to get them.
1. Donations

Indeed, that is more of an annoyance. Especially as imms keep lowering the worth of items. But sure, I can agree with that one.

2. Fear of Anathema

A decent player dont really fear this unless you #### upp real bad, and that would pretty much get you kicked out of any cabal.

3. Bullseye Factor

Sure you have a title as an Imperial, but compare this to a known rager wannabe, a high ranked scion. I find that way worse.

The thing is, yes it is only 5 people who gets extra powers over the Elite ones. Those people are often the most competent and often also five of the most active players. Compare this to maran who have maybe as many active full marans.

Imperials have powers designed to aid their class more or less, no other cabal has this feature. They have easily some of the best single powers in the game, imperial tactics, healing curse, imperial training, shroud and not to mention annoying anti-faerie one.

I can put up with all this, if you just change centurions. Pleeeeeeeeeaaaase . The fact that you cannot flee when fought an Imperial recently is such a deathtrap that makes solo retrieving against one defender is meaningless in some cases.

I know you can pay yourself though, but at rank 40 it will cost like 20k to pass two sets of centurions on your way to the vanquisher. And many players roleplay really forbid them to pay and that his a harsh punishment for it.

Oh well, Balhrads thread was not really about powers but more of forcing ingame competition and roleplaying. Sorry I kinda stole it.

Grurk: Obviously I should have worked on a degree in Marketing, because I have utterly failed to get my point across. I don't think Empire has "too many people". I think that the playerbase is actually too low to make "Competition by Numbers" work for the Empire-Power-Incentive dynamic. I'm actually saying the exact opposite of what you think I'm saying. And I'm proposing a way of setting up Imperial Powers so that it will increase the efficiency of the Incentive Program, while at the same time increasing Imperial RP and increasing the incentive to Actively Anathematize Imperials.

OK. With that in mind, please read my response to your post and re-consider my idea.


>I (and I'm pretty sure I speak for the Imm staff) don't
>think
>Empire is broken.
>


OK. I'm going to quote something you said in Lothorectred's thread a very short time ago that suggests you actually do think Empire is in some way "broken."

** BEGIN SNIP **

LOTHORECTRED: My personal opinion is you should just demote them to Oath for half of the crap you anathema for. Being an Oath and gathering donations again blows, but noobs play this game. If they don't violate a tangible Imperial Law, you should give them other chances (aka just demote) before anathema, or christ, LEAVE IT UP TO THE PC HIERARCHY.

GRURK: This is a great idea, except no one wants to be the bad guy. I mean think about it... what do you gain in making your sect/cabal weaker by demoting your mates? It just doesn't happen. Just look to Blitzenturt's riegn as Emperor as evidence to this truth.


LOTHORECTRED: If the Blade sucks too much and gets owned all the time, let the War Master or Emperor take care of it as his char sees fit. If the War Master is too lax, let the Emperor take care of the War Master.

GRURK: Again, perfect in principle.. but it will probably never happen in practice. Who wants to be the bad guy? We had some alarmingly high numbers, in regards to total cabal population just as recent as a couple weeks ago. Something like: Empire had more memebers than all other cabals combined. We clearly had some dead wieght in there somewhere.

** END SNIP **

You see? I'm not addressing a perceived problem that Empire, as a whole, is too numberous and powerful, I'm addressed a perceived problem that there is a "Promotion Inflation" in Empire. I'm suggesting that the root of this problems is that the Power/Incentive structure is somehow off-track. And I'm suggesting a plan that would actively ENCOURAGE Demotion and Anathematization - something that goes to the Heart of the Problem you addressed to Lothorectred.


>Speaking to the numbers of Imperials: The tides of who
>plays what
>cabal, when, and how many hours day, will rise and fall. Last
>month,
>Outlander was kicking major A$$ and this month Tribunal is on
>the
>upswing. As for Empire numbers, we are actually a little
>light
>right now. But we have something we've not had in awhile -
>Active
>players. That is to say, people who log on for set amounts of
>time
>each day. This is the first time I've seen this since coming
>over
>to Empire. It makes us appear more powerful than we really
>are.
>


I hope that you can see, after I've tried to clarify myself, that this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.


>
>Speaking to the powers Imperials get: I'm going to
>refer to
>my first line. I just don't think it's broke right now. The
>powers
>are in line with what you have to put up with to get them.
>1. Donations
>2. Fear of Anathema
>3. Bullseye Factor
>


OK. Again, look at your conversation with Lothorectred. Is the fear of Player-Driven Anathema really there? Is it really there to the degree that you want it to be - so that the Immortals don't have to step in and create it?

Anyway, thank you for your time if you read this post and re-read my original.

As you say, a problem with Empire is lack of demotions,
not abundance of powers.

Sorry, for my less than constructive post. I just like
the idea (with the addition as others suggested that
sect donations are normalised in some meaningful
manner (say number of members, time average)).

Go Balradh.

nt

Is that sects like the divine would induct like crazy in order to have comparable numbers.

Personally, I think it might work better if every sect had to log a minimum of hours per month across the sect as a whole, and then you took the average donation per hour per member.

That avoids penalising the smaller sects.

Empire just isn't that powerful. And while some of the powers are very good, so are the powers for other cabals.

All of this is just an over-reaction to some of you being on the sad end of a pk. Really.

When empire first came back, there were something like 5 months straight of insane bitching about how no empire could ever hero because of SOOOOOOOOOOO many lightwalkers about....

And these people used that as rationalization to ask for empire powers to be strengthened/etc.


Now, I wonder how many of those people NOW think that empire powers should be weakened/changed/altered in frequency...because now EMPIRE has the numbers to rule most other cabals.

My advice. You think too many empirials have elite status? Roll up a char, rank up, and kill elite empirials so much that they get demoted.

Or be more sly, maneuver these elites into bad situations that cause them to be demoted.

Or be more direct, and kill them over and over until they are gone.

Just because your current char can't do this....or your current choice of race/class/cabal can't do this, doesn't mean it can't be done.

That Balrahd's idea wasn't neat and interesting, it was.

I just think there has yet to be shown an overwhelming argument FOR changing what already exists (with regards to the Empire).

so ideas on how to change it...are kindof moot and superfluous, in my opinion.

>I just think there has yet to be shown an overwhelming
>argument FOR changing what already exists (with regards to the
>Empire).
>


My theory was that while the "Big Powers" are clear incentives to roll up an Imperial and drive up through the Echelons, they can be more closely tied to Political Maneuverings and Competition Between the Sects - so that it would provide an incentive for more of the Imperial Political RP(tm) that everyone knows and loves. That way we wouldn't have the common situation where players are unwilling to Demote others because it makes them "weaker" - with Balrahd's Plan v1.0, there would be a clear incentive to only promoting the best and the most valuable. And a clear incentive for the Emperor to make sure his/her own Sect is above the others.


>so ideas on how to change it...are kindof moot and
>superfluous, in my opinion.

I don't even think all the powers are that great. Especially considering the amount of effort required to get them and the fact that the Elite spots are limited.

The thing that makes Empire so scary is that it tends to attract those classes most capable of messing people over. Thieves, necromancers, shamans. They work especially well together. That, the fact that they have numbers, and centurions.

>I don't even think all the powers are that great. Especially
>considering the amount of effort required to get them and the
>fact that the Elite spots are limited.
>


I don't think it's that hard to get Sect Leadership. I'm definately willing to agree to disagree because it doesn't detract from the real reason why I'm suggesting the revamp - not because Empire is overpowered, not because the Powers don't match the players' efforts, but rather because I don't think the automatic Powers match the policy behind Imperial RP.


>The thing that makes Empire so scary is that it tends to
>attract those classes most capable of messing people over.
>Thieves, necromancers, shamans. They work especially well
>together. That, the fact that they have numbers, and
>centurions.


Honestly, the only thing that scared me about Yanacek was that he could see camo and could heal-curse (I was playing a ranger). I didn't think saying that the Special Sect Leader powers were "powerful" would cause such controversy. If no one thinks they are "powerful", then I'd probably have to redraft my assumptions and start over.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

>I don't think it's that hard to get Sect Leadership.

It's not impossible, no, but there are only ever going to be four of them. So in evaluating the cabal as a whole, I don't have to worry every single divine I face having healing curse. Etc. My point was merely that, when evaluating the cabal as a whole, the powers aren't hands down better than, say, what a maran or scion mage might get.

>Honestly, the only thing that scared me about Yanacek was that
>he could see camo and could heal-curse (I was playing a
>ranger).

Then you're a braver man than me. The fact that I couldn't see him, that he could knock me out long enough for sanc to drop, steal, forget, then proceed to kick my ass...those scared me. Also, when I realized he wasn't adverse to calling in help (in my case a necro) once he had me knocked out, that just made it worse.

>>I don't think it's that hard to get Sect Leadership.
>
>It's not impossible, no, but there are only ever going to be
>four of them. So in evaluating the cabal as a whole, I don't
>have to worry every single divine I face having healing curse.
> Etc. My point was merely that, when evaluating the cabal as
>a whole, the powers aren't hands down better than, say, what a
>maran or scion mage might get.
>


True, but if you're playing at Hero - it just might be possible that every divine you face will have healing curse. Or maybe 1 out of every 2. I don't know how many imperial heroes there are right now, but I can assert that 5 of them have Sect Leader powers. 5 players is a lot. Is that 1/2 at hero? 1/3? I haven't played in a while, so I don't know. But it's not the "overpoweredness" of it so much as the power and echelon "inflation".


>>Honestly, the only thing that scared me about Yanacek was
>that
>>he could see camo and could heal-curse (I was playing a
>>ranger).
>
>Then you're a braver man than me. The fact that I couldn't
>see him, that he could knock me out long enough for sanc to
>drop, steal, forget, then proceed to kick my ass...those
>scared me. Also, when I realized he wasn't adverse to calling
>in help (in my case a necro) once he had me knocked out, that
>just made it worse.


Haha. No, I wasn't brave Anyway, after I reply to Jhishesh I'm going to have to sit on my hands for a while. I just really thought this was a neat idea that hit me on the BART ride home.

>Empire just isn't that powerful. And while some of the powers
>are very good, so are the powers for other cabals.
>
>All of this is just an over-reaction to some of you being on
>the sad end of a pk. Really.

Well, considering how I've played two Imperials and both managed to become Sect Leaders, I think I know what I'm talking about. It's not hard to rise through the Echelons - I'm fully confident I could roll up a character and do it again.

That being said, if you could restrain your comments to constructive criticism of my idea to flesh out Imperial incentives for Demoting as well as Political Maneuvering, that would be preferable to your misplaced rant. Thanks.

The entire premise of your point is that Empire as a cabal, and the players and their powers, are too strong.

That premise is false.

So I repeat, get over it.

And I'm sure you could make more sect leaders. But don't you see the obvious problem with your hypothesis?

(a) Too many Imperials, so we need to cut away the powers and make more demotions.

(b) Too easy to get sect leader.

A and B cannot both be true. Think of all those people who are *not* getting to become sect leader. If Empire is so large and numerous as you and those like you complain, then it is very hard to be sect leader, despite your point. If it is so few people, then it might be easy to get sect leader, but then where's the problem with their powers, since there are so few of them?

So as I said, get over it. Empire is not too strong, the powers aren't too strong, and the ones that are even close are only given to sect leaders. Very limited. And it comes with a big bullseye.

If anything, I'd say the extrapolation from this would be to give cabal leaders in other cabals special powers. A very few have. I would make it universal. Become cabal leader, get a nifty power.

I just spent a ####load of time clarifying your assumptions, and it failed to post.

So I'm just going to say this:
1. Remove your assumption that I think Empire is overpowered and taking over the MUD.
2. Remove your assumptions that (a) I think "there are too many Imperials" and (b) I think Empire is "so large and numerous" and replace it with:
"Balrahd thinks that the playerbase is NOT large and numerous enough for the current incentive structure AND Balrahd thinks there can be a more efficient incentive structure that better realizes the policy goals behind Empire".
3. Now re-read my post without your initial Assumptions.

The bottom line here is you think there's a problem with Empire. I don't. And I think your problem stems from other than what you are saying.

You have yet to outline anything wrong with Empire. What's wrong with the incentive system you claim?

And furthermore, your potential solution is bad because it means a sect leader and Emperor will not always have his powers. That's just silly.

One way or the other your point is reduce the power of members of Empire. I, like Grurk, think that's wrong.

So I say again, you are overreacting to having died. Dust off and move on. Empire is not overpowered, it is not in need of fixing.

And I am still waiting to hear how you can claim it is so easy to get a sect leader position, but at the same time see all these various players playing imperials who never get to be a sect leader. Boggles the mind my friend.

>The bottom line here is you think there's a problem with
>Empire. I don't. And I think your problem stems from other
>than what you are saying.
>
>You have yet to outline anything wrong with Empire. What's
>wrong with the incentive system you claim?
>

I think what’s wrong with Empire is that there is a “promotion inflation”. This is evidenced in several ways:

1. If you look at Imperials in the hero range, it must be 1 out of every 2, maybe out of every 3 that have Sect Leader Powers. Moreover, very few are at less than Elite Status. I believe this is because the playerbase is smaller – so if you manage to rank up a character to hero and do a decent job of it, your chances to become an Elite and/or Sect Leader are very good.

2. As Grurk stated in Lothorectred’s goodbye thread, and as we’ve seen by looking at the PBF’s of various Sect Leaders and Emperors, Anthematization and Demotions are not happening. Empire was meant to be Player-Driven, where players engaged in politics and vied against each other. But, like Grurk said, Players do not currently have an Incentive to Demote/Anathema others because it makes Empire weaker as a whole. “No one wants to be the bad guy.”

3. I believe the Sect Leader/Emperor Powers are quite strong compared to other cabals.

4. I believe that the Strength of the Sect Leader/Emperor powers is Justified because it acts as an Incentive for Players to seek out these positions. Players will betray one another and actively engage in politics because they want the “Nifty Powers”. Players will demote threats and anathematize threats because they’re afraid of losing their “Nifty Powers.”

5. I believe that in order for the Incentive Dynamic discussed above in #4 to work, the Empire playerbase has to be large and numerous. There have to be many players in the higher ranges, vying for the same few positions.

6. Because, as I discussed in #1, the playerbase is not large and numerous enough, it is not generating enough Competition to provide adequate Incentives to engage in Imperial-Like Behavior. Thus, the symptoms discussed in #2 and #1 occur. We have “promotion inflation.”

7. I believe the optimal system is one where the Immortals do not step in and Anathematize people. The optimal system is one where the Players have the Incentive and Control to do the job themselves.


>And furthermore, your potential solution is bad because it
>means a sect leader and Emperor will not always have his
>powers. That's just silly.
>


Whether or not the Emperor or a Sect Leader has their complete powers, under my system, is completely, 100% dependent on how good a job the Emperor or a Sect Leader is doing leading their Sect. They can cut the dead weight within their Sect and rise above the other Sects using Anathema. They can provide negative reinforcement to Sect members using Demotions. And, under my system, they actually have the Incentive to do these things. My way, they don’t get a free ride – there’s no “promotion inflation” because every decision may have a cost.


>One way or the other your point is reduce the power of members
>of Empire. I, like Grurk, think that's wrong.
>


My system would only reduce the power of the Lowest Performers among the Highest Echelons in Empire. There are maybe 5, at most, players of the game that would suffer a reduction in power. But those players would be pretty damned encouraged to do what they can to regain their power – and, this is key – that is entirely within their control.


>So I say again, you are overreacting to having died. Dust off
>and move on. Empire is not overpowered, it is not in need of
>fixing.
>


This is unrelated to my point, but I haven’t died to an imperial since.. like since Yanacek was Emperor. I have, however, experienced Sect Leader powers from both sides, and I think they’re quite powerful – so I don’t see a problem with restricting their use to those who perform the Best.


>And I am still waiting to hear how you can claim it is so easy
>to get a sect leader position, but at the same time see all
>these various players playing imperials who never get to be a
>sect leader. Boggles the mind my friend.


Alright – this is unrelated to my point, so if you’re going to respond to it, please do so in a way that does not intermingle the two. If a player ranks to hero and sticks it out for a good 100 hours at hero, I think, under the current system, there is a good chance that player will become Sect Leader (unless he’s working under a Sect Leader doing the same thing). Most players don’t put in that kind of time into one character. The ones who do become Sect Leaders.

Certain sects tend to have a generic advantage over other ones. The divine for example typically has lower numbers so therefore can't generate the same donations as the hordes of imperials and will therefore always have lower donations (3rd or 4th place) and never have their power. (not a problem in my eyes but hey, all in being fair)

Just one problem i could see there, entrenchment of positions.

Make it so that it's proportionate to number in sect. So that if there are only three divines and who kick ass in donations department, they can still take the lead over the ten mediocre and suck ass blades.

Amount of donations, divided by the number of sect members. And then you get a "per member" amount. The per member amount could be how it's decided.