There's some forum posts about this edge that say proficient instrumentalist only helps if you are using an instrument that is not suited to your current repertoire.

Daevryn says in the below post "depending on the song"

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=51443&mesg_id=51446&page=

Am I correct in assuming there's a bit more to this edge than what was stated above? It's very expensive so I feel like there is.

For example, let's say I'm singing in my preferred repertoire with an instrument suited for that repertoire and have this edge. This same instrument also is terrible for say epic songs. Will the edge help me in this case when I sing an epic song like apocalyptic overture?

However, it is done, each instrument seems to have a rating of some sort for each repertoire. Here are two instruments that are both "best-suited" for tragic repertoires, compare the same for the tragic repertoire but compare differently for epic.

Freshly strung with glistening new strings as fine as spiders silk, a small
lap harp nearly begs to be touched. Golden filigree dances along its length
with scenes of small children at play in a meadow. A slight breeze dances
along the strings and the harp whispers promises of ballads yet to come.

A golden harp is a instrument, made of wood, and weighs 4 pounds 15 ounces.
It is most useful for comedic, romantic, tragic repertoires.

This flute has been cunningly carved from wood, giving it a slightly lower
and mellower tone than traditional metal flutes. The wood has not been
varnished, but gleams with the smooth wear of many uses.

A wooden flute is a instrument, made of wood, and weighs 1 pounds 0 ounces.
It is most useful for comedic, romantic, tragic repertoires.

A wooden flute and a golden harp seem equally suited for Comedic performance.
A wooden flute looks superior to a golden harp for Epic performance.
A wooden flute and a golden harp seem equally suited for Romantic performance.
A wooden flute and a golden harp seem equally suited for Tragic performance.

These are low level instruments. One is level 20 while the other is 18. Since I'm asking, if they are equally suited to each other for a repertoire, does the level matter at all?

Do instruments work like weapons where you get penalized for using one too many levels above your own?

If I am preferred and singing in tragic, will using the flute allow me to sing songs like apocalyptic overture better than the harp since it compares or rates better for the epic rep?

Would proficient instrumentalist help to even the field between the two instruments if I am singing in tragic when singing those songs best suited for the epic style?

I tried to briefly test these instruments out but didn't notice a difference between the damage the songs produce, however, I wonder if that is due more to the low level of the instrument.

I seem to be confounding myself the more I try to think about how this edge works. I used to think it works where I could take a comedic instrument and use it to sing in the tragic rep to greater effect. While it likely does this I think there might be more to it and perhaps how the repertoire system works in general. Especially considering how expensive the edge is.

Repertoires come into play in three different ways. You have the bards repertoire (preferred and regular). You have an instruments repertoire rating. And, you have a song repertoire rating.

The place most start is to match the instrument repertoire to the bard repertoire and go. But, I suspect there is a little more to it than that. I think that if you also use a lot of songs that rate better from a different repertoire you want to make sure you get an instrument that also rates well for that repertoire. Perhaps the strongest preferred repertoire instrument isn't the best choice in this scenario because it might rate poorly for the songs in that second rep that you also favor. Maybe, you will get more mileage out of an instrument that is slightly weaker for the preferred rep but rates or compares better for that second repertoire. Does this sound correct?

Thank you.

"Do instruments work like weapons where you get penalized for using one too many levels above your own?"
- Not that I have ever seen. I have always noticed better efficacy with a song when using a better instrument no matter my level. So while this may actually be occurring, the scaling does not seem to offset the boost the instrument provides.
For example, if I take the blackened harp, the worn lyre, and the death reed harp, the death reed harp will always produce better results than the other two no matter my char level. However, your char level will also scale up the effects of songs when using the same instrument.

Song Efficacy appears to take into account the following things:
1) Char level & Charisma
2) Instrument Level (though this is not universally true due to #4 and it really may not matter- it may just be #4)
3) Repertoire Type
4) Instrument modifier for Repertoire being used.
then there would be things like being tipsy, edges and all that.

"If I am preferred and singing in tragic, will using the flute allow me to sing songs like apocalyptic overture better than the harp since it compares or rates better for the epic rep?"
- The song being suited to a rep means the song is more effective when sung in that rep. If I sing Apocalyptic in the tragic rep while using an awesome epic instrument, the output will still be terrible, because I am not singing in a repertoire that instrument is suited for. So in your example, the flute wouldn't make a difference even though it is better for epic than the harp.

I think in the real world it'd be like singing Enya singing her own lyrics, but instead of playing the harp she plays a trumpet. The instrument won't fit with the song and the voice. With the edge, she could make the trumpet sound more like a harp, producing a better result. And it also may make the harp sound like a little bit better harp.

"Would proficient instrumentalist help to even the field between the two instruments if I am singing in tragic when singing those songs best suited for the epic style?"
- I have no idea. I always saw proficient instrumentalist as an edge that allows a bard to choose any instrument, and have it be more effective in any rep. So I can use the death reed harp in the epic rep, and get far better results than I would without the edge. However, when singing in tragic, the edge provides no benefit usually (maybe this is because the harp is already good though?).

So I would only take the edge if I wanted a sweet progging instrument, but didn't want to use the rep it is suited to, or I can only find mid level instruments in the rep I use (if the boost may make say a worn lyre closer to a death reed for tragic because the edge may only care about instrument modifier ratings, not what the instrument is best suited to) or I like to switch up my reps often but don't want to carry an instrument best suited to each.
However, most bards rarely if ever switch reps, and most can find a good instrument for it, so it may not be worth it all the time.

"I tried to briefly test these instruments out but didn't notice a difference between the damage the songs produce, however, I wonder if that is due more to the low level of the instrument."
-I generally use bagatelle to test anything with bards. Damage is hard because you have ranges that have some good variation within them, and damage isn't universally consistent to begin with when you sing i.e. vibrato doesn't always do 100, it may do from 80-120 or something.
With bagatelle you'll notice a 2hp per increase with every char level you gain. But because the hp range is so broad, it's a little easier to get a sense of relative strengths between things because you're more likely to see variations in outcome, and the variations are consistent. Bagatelle will always produce the same result in the same scenario. This also works against me thinking high level instrument efficacy scales with char level. Easiest way to test this is to literally just hero a bard. Sing bagatelle with maybe three instruments in every rep, take the edge, repeat and see what changes. I don't know that I have the patience for that, but if you were going to take the edge anyway, you could probably get a good sense of how it worked.

"I seem to be confounding myself the more I try to think about how this edge works. I used to think it works where I could take a comedic instrument and use it to sing in the tragic rep to greater effect. While it likely does this I think there might be more to it and perhaps how the repertoire system works in general. Especially considering how expensive the edge is."
- I think your initial view of the edge is correct. My perceived value in the edge is what I noted above. However, most bards simply don't play that way. There could be some real value in being able to say have the horn of tritons, blast with epic, switch reps to tragic, flee return and fiend effectively. But again, most bard players would never think to play this way, and I was definitely too lazy to with all my bards. I believe you can shift moods while in combat, so they wouldn't even see it coming.

"Repertoires come into play in three different ways. You have the bards repertoire (preferred and regular). You have an instruments repertoire rating. And, you have a song repertoire rating."
- Preferred is just a level boost when singing in that rep, but this appears accurate.

"The place most start is to match the instrument repertoire to the bard repertoire and go. But, I suspect there is a little more to it than that. I think that if you also use a lot of songs that rate better from a different repertoire you want to make sure you get an instrument that also rates well for that repertoire. Perhaps the strongest preferred repertoire instrument isn't the best choice in this scenario because it might rate poorly for the songs in that second rep that you also favor. Maybe, you will get more mileage out of an instrument that is slightly weaker for the preferred rep but rates or compares better for that second repertoire. Does this sound correct?"
- I think most pick the rep they plan to use, set it to preferred, and go from there. Everyone will inevitably use healing songs, prep songs, and damage songs a lot. Nobody really bothers to juggle reps simply because they'll be doing all of these things a lot, and nobody wants to keep a ton of instruments in inventory.

Proficient instrumentalist, plus the edge that allows a quicker cool down between shifting reps, might make this a more viable way to play a bard. Again, I've never seen anyone do this in practice, but the theory does hold up. For example, if I were going to run through dragon lairs, I'd probably go to comedic for the healing boost. Comedic healing with a good instrument is going to outperform tragic healing with a good instrument even if I am tragic preferred. The edge saves me having to juggle instruments, which ultimately provides more flexibility in the bard's singing options.

Of course, I'm always happy to hear an imm's view on bards, since I inevitably find out how many bard related things I've been wrong about for years.

Also. This is an edge, the perceived value is often nowhere as high as we players think it is.

Thank you for the reply. That all makes sense and was my understanding of the mechanics until what I explain below happened which prompted me to investigate the edge further looking for a "fix" and it got me wondering if there was more to bard mechanics than is commonly understood.

The helpfile for the song symphonic echoes indicates that it is best for the comedic repertoire and worst for the epic repertoire, unless you take "overly brazen" to mean something else beside epic.

I was singing in epic when I learned the echoes song. I had an above average instrument for epic and had decent success with echoes. It was not difficult to get it to take affect.

I picked up a very high level tragic instrument and switched to tragic being my preferred repertoire. Since echoes seems "neutral" for tragic rep I expected the song to be at least as good if not better than when I was singing in epic. Which would make sense taking into account the common understanding. The song rates better for the tragic rep than the epic rep and my instrument improved. The song should at the very least perform the same.

It didn't. There is a stark contrast between the two situations. Echoes became quite unsuccessful to the point where I'd just stop singing it because it is a waste of mana.

I began to ask myself why this could be and if there was anything I could do to fix it. It wouldn't be my charisma because that is constant between the two situations. The instrument improved for the chosen repertoire, yet the song got worse, even though I went to a repertoire that is supposed to be better for the song. Strange.

The only thing I could come up with is maybe there is more to the mechanics than I previously thought. It's been my experience that tragic instruments rate poorly for the comedic repertoire, which makes sense because tragic and comedic are somewhat opposed. This tragic instrument I picked up is too high a level to compare but I suspect that the epic instrument I was using compared better to it for the comedic rep. I compared that epic instrument to another tragic instrument that was about equal level to the epic and found that to be the case. This got me thinking that this might be the problem.

So what would be the solution? I don't know. Maybe proficient instrumentalist? It has to do with reducing penalties from using an instrument that doesn't match the repertoire. So I began reading what was on the forums and that was when I came across Daevryn's post. His post almost seemed to lend support to my theory but was a little too unclear for me to be sure. So I asked here.

From his post: "and I believe it is more likely to boost poor or mediocre instruments than really good ones for the repertoire. Which, depending on the song, can have a small effect or a big one"

Here he said song in the second sentence, not repertoire. To me here, he is indicating that while singing in a repertoire, each song will be impacted differently by this edge. Why would this be? Why would he say song?

Not only that, I don't think it was a slip of tongue because before that he says sometimes your instrument counts as slightly better for the same repertoire. So there is definitely more to the edge than just being able to use an instrument better than is not suited to your repertoire.

Lastly, as I've mentioned before, this edge is expensive. I actually suspect it has been made more expensive at once point because the QHCF wiki says it is the same cost as Ehren Soul, except it is not. It's higher on the list than swashbuckler. I looked through old PBFs and see it is a very popular edge. That might itself explain why the edge was made more expensive.

Frankly, if all it does is let me take an instrument and use it better for a rep it wasn't intended, it is not worth the opportunity cost of taking other edges. So I came here hoping to get an answer to my question before taking a flyer on a really expensive edge that I might find kind of useless.

I always quote Zulgh on bards. 'F*** Bards". Something about him hating they way songs were coded.

You'd have to give specific instruments in the example to get an idea if what you anticipate should even be happening. You also assume that while epic is the worst, tragic is more than marginally better for echoes, which it's hard to know is actually true. Echoes fails a lot in tragic. Finally, actual success rates and perceived success rates can vary.

Gather four instruments suited to different reps, and use bagatelle with each in each rep. (Hell, I may do this one day) The trag/ep/rom that compare better in comedic should perform better than the others when singing in the off rep (i.e. for romantic/tragic this would be when singing epic). If they compare the same, the result should be the same. If the rom compares better for comedic, the rom instrument should do better and you'd probably have a good point to argue your theory.
You can actually do this with just two instruments. You just need them to have the same preferred, and compare equally in all but one of the reps. Sing bagatelle in the three non-suited reps, see if results vary between them. They should in theory be the same when equally suited.

Your theory makes a bard's repertoire less relevant in a way. If what matters is how well an instrument is suited to the rep for the song in addition to the rep used, then singing in a style matters less and an instrument being suited to two reps matters more. I could in theory sing echoes in tragic with a high level comedic instrument and have better success than with a mid level tragic instrument which generally should not be the case.

Daev is a lot of the time very vague in his answers, so it's never easy to determine what he actually means. People thought preferred made a big difference, myself among them. Per Daev, it apparently does not. You're always better off singing a song in the rep the song does best with and an instrument suited to it than you are in an off rep because it is your preferred. Which in itself may make instrumentalist worthwhile.

My theory is each instrument has a modifier for the four styles of music, and the edge creates boon to that modifier across the board, just like Swashbuckler does to dex. The greater the disparity, the greater the boon. I use tragic only because I played so many of them.
So say you have a worn lyre that impacts your songs in the following manner and the death reed harp impacts them in the second values
com -20% -20%
epic -30% -30%
rom -20% -20%
Tragic +25% +40%

Take Bagatelle now
Comedic 100 hp
Epic 80 hp
romantic 90 hp
tragic 90 hp

So you sing in each rep you'd produce
80 hp
54 hp
80 hp
112 hp, 126 hp

The edge may boost those modifiers by saying always average in 40% to the existing, but not above.
So they become
rom 10% 10%
epic 5% 5%
rom 10% 10%
tragic 32.5% 40%
After the edge:
Com 110 hp
Epic 96 hp
Rom 99 hp
Tra 123 hp 126 hp

I took the edge on my first ever bard, and got annoyed because I had a high end instrument, and it appeared to do nothing for any of my songs. When my bagatelle didn't change, I decided the edge was garbage because people could always just get instruments suited to the rep they were using. I probably didn't understand a lot of the dynamics of reps, songs and instruments though.

My biggest problem with your idea is this. Does it account for all reps? So since a song has an efficacy rate for each rep, why would it only care about a best suited rep? Why would it not just look at an instrument's rating in all 4 reps?

Your theory means song strength is determined by the following:
Char level (yes)
Edges (yes)
Sober/tipsy/drunk (yes)
Instrument's level (maybe)
Song style repertoire modifier (yes) (i.e. echoes sung in X is better than echoes sung in Y)
Instrument's repertoire modifier (yes)
Instrument's modifier for song's best rep (maybe)

I think maybe one thing may be falsely assumed. Echoes is not inherently a comedic song. It is just a song. It's affects are greatest when singing in a comedic style, but that doesn't mean when singing in tragic the degree the instrument is comedic (and only comedic) somehow plays a role in changing it from a tragic song.

After all this thought, I'd love to hear an actual answer.
I just wouldn't hold my breath waiting.

There is certainly a potent way to get mileage out of the edge, but it may not be by just uniformly boosting an instrument's songs across the board for all songs that have a different "best" rep then the one you are using. That edge would in fact be universally thought of as overpowered because it would in essence be boosting 3/4 of all your songs all the time even when you have a high end instrument. Given how effective all songs generally are when you sing in any rep with an instrument for that rep, a boost to all those songs seems just way too good.

I just don't see that possibly being the case, but I've been wrong many times before when it comes to bards.

"I always quote Zulgh on bards. 'F*** Bards". Something about him hating they way songs were coded."

Haha! I'm telling you! Maybe the mechanics are more complex than we think?

"You'd have to give specific instruments in the example to get an idea if what you anticipate should even be happening."

It's a level 52 tragic instrument versus a level 40-41 epic instrument.

"You also assume that while epic is the worst, tragic is more than marginally better for echoes, which it's hard to know is actually true."

Actually, no, I'm not assuming that. I'm saying per the helpfile the song is no worse in tragic than epic. Therefore, it should at least perform the same with an equal or better instrument.

"Finally, actual success rates and perceived success rates can vary."

This is true. I suppose I could get more scientific with it. I wouldn't be here if the difference didn't feel extreme enough to justify looking in to it and start asking questions.



" The trag/ep/rom that compare better in comedic should perform better than the others when singing in the off rep (i.e. for romantic/tragic this would be when singing epic)."

Are you saying Bagatelle is a comedic song? I don't see anything in the helpfile to indicate a rep for it. This is a solid idea, I think if done with 2 instruments. 4 would take forever in game with the repertoire changes. I might do it if I can find the time.

The bagatelle would have to be suited to a rep to test this, I think. Let's say it is comedic. If I find 2 instruments that compare the same in 1 rep but different in comedic, I could switch to that rep, sing the bagatelle with both instruments and see if I get any change in the strength of the Bagatelle.

"Your theory makes a bard's repertoire less relevant in a way."

Yes, I suppose it could. Or, it could be just a small modifier that is usually not noticeable. I just happened to find an extreme case.

"If what matters is how well an instrument is suited to the rep for the song in addition to the rep used, then singing in a style matters less and an instrument being suited to two reps matters more."

Maybe this is what makes those high end 2 repertoire instruments so great?

"I could in theory sing echoes in tragic with a high level comedic instrument and have better success than with a mid level tragic instrument which generally should not be the case."

I actually switched back to the epic instrument I had, while still in tragic, after failing echoes 5-6 times and nailed it on the first try with the epic instrument. While not much evidence to prove anything, it got me wondering. I've tried doing it again and it was repeatable a few times, while others it didn't work.

"Daev is a lot of the time very vague in his answers, so it's never easy to determine what he actually means. People thought preferred made a big difference, myself among them. Per Daev, it apparently does not. You're always better off singing a song in the rep the song does best with and an instrument suited to it than you are in an off rep because it is your preferred."

You're right here. He said singing in preferred gives a small bonus to the songs not suited to your rep. It sounds to me like it really doesn't do anything for the songs in that rep because he also said that if you switch to tragic and sing a nocturne, that's pretty much what you're nocturne will look like if sung preferred tragic.

"Which in itself may make instrumentalist worthwhile."

Perhaps the edge narrows the gap between singing apocalyptic in tragic versus singing apocalyptic in epic? I think maybe that's what you are saying in your example?

"My biggest problem with your idea is this. Does it account for all reps? So since a song has an efficacy rate for each rep, why would it only care about a best suited rep? Why would it not just look at an instrument's rating in all 4 reps?"

Yeah, I don't know. I'm just here asking questions about music theory! I am just sharing my experience with you to show why I am asking. I can't think of any other reason, other than I am imagining it, which could very well be the case. I could be completely wrong.

"That edge would in fact be universally thought of as overpowered because it would in essence be boosting 3/4 of all your songs all the time even when you have a high end instrument."

Well, the edge supposedly has the greatest influence on poor or mediocre instruments. What if, despite the instrument being high level, it is actually considered poor for this particular repertoire? Therefore it would see a benefit from the edge.

Jumping back a bit on this point.

"So say you have a worn lyre that impacts your songs in the following manner and the death reed harp impacts them in the second values
com -20% -20%
epic -30% -30%
rom -20% -20%
Tragic +25% +40%"

What if this particular instrument has a -50% or something rating for comedic, despite being such a high level? It's just good or really good in the other reps? And that -50% is actually impacting the comedic songs sung while in tragic to a degree that is actually noticeable?

Like I said, I could be wrong. I'm just asking the questions and will have to try somethings out in game, I suppose. Or just bite the bullet, take the edge and see what happens to my "situation".

Thanks again for all your input.

I'm not disagreeing with what you say about the reps for songs. The helpfiles are not explicit is all.

Bagatelle: "A short, mirthful, and light-hearted song." Sort of indicates comedic being the best. Plus actual experience supports it. Epic actually is not great, much to people's shock.

Echoes: Bards in a mood of sharp-wit are best able to master this technique, while those who are overly brazen may find their style too straightfoward to utilize this method to its fullest potential.

We assume brazen means epic, but maybe tragic songs are brazen too. I would think epic sucks the most based on that, but who knows what that helpfile is really saying.

Also, foward is not a word, so there is a typo in the helpfile. So some good came of all of this!

If it means anything here's a post where Daevryn agrees on which repertoires echoes is good/bad for (comedic/epic).

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=16596&mesg_id=16606&page=

I've done a little experimentation and not even close to finished yet but here is what I've seen:

I sang Bagatelle in tragic with a death reed harp and got 106 hp. Death reed harp is level 42.

I then sang it in epic with the twisting horns of value (level 41) and got 104 hp.

I got two level 35 epic instruments that compare equally for epic but differently for romantic/comedic (the same instrument was worse both both rom/com). I sang Bagatelle and got the same number of hps for both instruments.

I decided to try signing elven adagio with the two level 35 epic instruments and despite having a very small sample size the instrument better at comedic had a slightly higher average. 44 hp v 45.25. The sample size was quite small so this doesn't exactly mean anything, but, I'm no stats expert. The sample size was 21. The range was a bit different too. 39-54 with the one better in comedic and 38-52 with the one worse in comedic. I intend to try it more and get a larger sample size and see if this holds.

That being said, maybe a 1 hp difference in average and a 2 hp higher range might actually mean something.

I also suspect that Bagatelle is one of those songs not specific to a repertoire.

and I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure the most important factor in all this is that the instrument being used matches the current repertoire being used. After that, will be using the repertoire best suited for the song (comedic for healing, etc...). Next comes instrument level. This is modified by the Tune skill, which increases the effective level of the instrument. Whether effectiveness of instrument, based on comparison of instrument level and character level is scaled by character level, I don't know. But as lasentia mentiond, the boost from having a higher level instrument seems to always outweigh any scaling that may or may not be done. For instance, I've found that acquiring the red-gold harp at a very early level always gives me a significant boost, even though the harp is like, level 50 or something (can't remember exactly, but I know it's a high level item). And then I'll switch to romantic rep until I find an instrument that's better for the rep I WANT to be using than what the harp is for romantic rep. Preferred repertoire is actually the least important factor in all this. Obviously, you'd want to choose a preferred rep that you expect your character will be using the most, or that your character will otherwise find to be the most important for what they want to accomplish. This is why so many pk-oriented bards will choose either tragic or epic for their preferred reps, for boosting Grand Nocturne or damage songs, respectively. But if the best instrument you have available doesn't fit your preferred rep, or even the best rep for the songs you'll be using the most, you'd be better off switching to the repertoire best suited to the instrument you're using. That'll provide the biggest boost.

So, let's say your preferred rep is Tragic, but the only instrument you have available is best suited for an Epic repertoire and sucks for Comedic (a bugle, perhaps?). You're group only needs you for filling the "healer" role in the group, so you want to be the best healing bard you can be with only an epic instrument. First thing you'll want to do is switch to epic repertoire, because that will make the most use of the instrument you have. If, instead, you tried to use comedic repertoire because it's best suited for healing songs, you would actually see a DECREASE in the effectiveness of your healing, rather than an increase, because your instrument is HORRIBLE for the comedic repertoire. If you're still not healing as effectively as you'd like to be, either find a higher level epic instrument, or, even better yet, find an instrument or roughly equal level to your current instrument, but is best suited to comedic style, then switch to comedic repertoire. In between these two options would be finding a romantic instrument of roughly equal level to your current epic instrument, and then switch to romantic repertoire. Now, let's say in your hunt for a better instrument, you find a tragic instrument that is roughly equal level to your current epic instrument. Using the tragic instrument and switching to tragic repertoire (your preferred rep) will probably boost your healing ability beyond that of epic rep with epic instrument (assuming roughly equal instrument levels).

If any Imm who understands the coding of all this would like to correct me on any of these points, please feel free.

Tune skill doesn't seem to impact anything more than success rate of tune and I guess ability to take a few edges, at least perfect pitch.

A tuned instrument is good for one song, and seems to produce what I'd say is a 5 level boost. (10hp in bagatelle I think)
I've never noticed better efficacy in my heroes as my tune went from 80% to 100%.

Generally you tune before prep songs, when you have someone slept, and then I usually just keep it tuned so that when in PK the first echoes/fiend/lullaby (the only three songs I generally open with) has a little better chance of landing.

I'd probably do it more, but I hate the lag and perfect pitch is not worth taking in the less edges world.