In response to: http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,1074851,1074878#msg-1074878

Specifically, "Honestly, I contemplated circulating maps to every single area explore in the game including detailed quest walk-throughs with the intent of 'keeping him busy' changing all of that #### so he'd not have time to cook up any more stupid reasons to remove features that people enjoy as compared to inventing new ones".

Setting aside the game itself, whether you agree or disagree with someone, who is right and who is wrong, etc., please understand that this is an incredibly pathetic thing for an adult to say, threaten, or do.

I'm sure that if your actual friends, peers, bosses, etc. knew this is how you behave (or even think) that you would be embarrassed and ashamed.

You may not like our game or the people who work on it. Maybe you did and you feel like we've ruined something you loved and were invested in. Even so, no decent person's response to that is to deliberately ruin the thing those other people (in this case, us as well as your fellow players) care about in some kind of retaliation.

My hope is that you spoke out of anger and weren't at any point serious and that my comments are unnecessary, possibly even an overreaction. I won't say any more on the subject.

I am sure Nurok was speaking out of anger.

I am bemus-ed that I can never have another Antone again (edge wise) but thems the breaks. You're no Valg 2.0 (that is likely the nastiest insult anyone can throw around). Your work on October forms gives you a free pass from me until next October.

Nurok will be fine once he chills and LRNS2RP.

Someone mentioned to me that Valg emailed their employer to notify them of cheating like Nurok described coming from that person at their work place. Seems like good incentive to stop cheating. It was ironic to me because if it happened it is like the reverse of what happened on the #### cheater site.

I have had bosses who would have cared if I was playing a computer game on the clock, but I've never had one that would have cared that I was cheating while playing a game. I'm having a hard time even imagining one that would.

nas

If the intent was not retaliation, but rather because I (a CF player) discussed with my peers (other players) and we decided that the game would be better off if we distributed explore/quest/etc. info, would you feel we had done a pathetic thing?

I mean it is similar to copyright infringing youtube videos and whatnot right? The rules say don't do it, but it happens and generally isn't considered (by popular opinion) to be an overly horrible thing to do to the artists.

For the record, I have no intention of publishing these things, but I don't believe that they should be secret in principle. It is sort of like reading the book you are playing in DnD. It might take some of the magic out of it, but if you ruin everyone else's experience it is probably because you are an asshole, not because you read HotDQ and know what is coming.

>If the intent was not retaliation, but rather because I (a CF
>player) discussed with my peers (other players) and we decided
>that the game would be better off if we distributed
>explore/quest/etc. info, would you feel we had done a pathetic
>thing?

In the interest of remaining civil and reasonable, I don't think I'd quite go to that far, but I'd definitely find it exceedingly disrespectful.

>I mean it is similar to copyright infringing youtube videos
>and whatnot right? The rules say don't do it, but it happens
>and generally isn't considered (by popular opinion) to be an
>overly horrible thing to do to the artists.

You should also consider who is being copied on youtube. Random guy w/ youtube channel? Music videos that are posted on the artist's channel anyways? Not a lot of complaints. You'll notice the MOMENT random pay-per-view ends up on youtube, it very quickly gets removed. Some of this is the original poster's intention, some of it's a matter of who has the means to pursue it.

In the CF world, consider it sort of like publishing a High Tower of Sorcery walkthrough vs. a Silent Tower walkthrough. HToS was designed as a general area. Some neat gear, some PvE fighting, some hidden rewards to find, etc. For the most part, Immortals understand that knowledge gets out (Player experience, IC sharing, and OOC sharing). Probably 95%+ of areas are designed like this. These are the music videos of CF, designed for the vast majority of the playerbase. (Note greater undead as a good example. The request was not to post an immediate spoiler when they came out, but over time the knowledge would become public. I think the playerbase did a good job honoring that request)

In particular circumstances, Immortals have designed areas specifically for the explorer. The player who wants the detail, puzzle challenge. In these specific situations, the Immortal staff I believe has very clearly stated the intention of these areas, and that in these few cases, has asked the playerbase to honor their wishes. Is the playerbase required to honor these wishes? Obviously not, given over the years we've had plenty of examples of players who have not honored these wishes.

These areas are the pay-per-views of CF. However, CF doesn't have the means to have these spoilers deleted. Certainly at least not before the damage is done. So, what action can CF take? I don't know that there are a lot of options, so the result has often been that the authors of these different, unique, and in some ways magical areas simply choose to have these treasures removed, when the magic is ruined. This thought was a major factor in the creation of the Dragon Lairs, if I recall. That the true "explore/quest" area may not be viable in today's CF, so the Dragon Lairs were created with more of an epic feel to the direct PvE theme.

>For the record, I have no intention of publishing these
>things, but I don't believe that they should be secret in
>principle. It is sort of like reading the book you are
>playing in DnD. It might take some of the magic out of it,
>but if you ruin everyone else's experience it is probably
>because you are an asshole, not because you read HotDQ and
>know what is coming.

As a slight tangent to explore areas are the assorted easter eggs that have been changed over the years. Typically these aren't changed out of spite, but for the fact that some of these items had been created with the theory that only those who explored and observed would have access, balancing power with rarity. Some of these secrets just weren't really effective or balanced once the knowledge was spread across the world. A good example of this was the random vine in Ysigrath. The comments at the time it was changed was that it had gotten to the point it was practically a waiting list at that vine. Some of this can be the fault of the area designer, sometimes it's the fact of that knowledge spread. Think of the changes of purple potions and free sanc being removed, haste being phased out of day-to-day preps, etc. These changes aren't always popular to begin with, but it's always a matter of reviewing, assessing, and adjusting the balance of the complex monster that CF is.

I basically said this....

"I agree that Silent is a #### area. I agree it's #### only certain people abuse it and get OP. I think it should be taken out. BUT I DON'T THINK POSTING WALKTHROUGHS OUT OF SPITE IS THE WAY TO GO ABOUT IT".

And that's basically what Umiron is saying. No one (well, some people who don't like clutter and inane #### might disagree) would have a problem if Nurok said something like "Hey, I feel like if you are dis-incentivizing PK, why not have detailed maps on the website of area explores and gear IDs, as those are also things to incentivize PK".

A discussion would happen, people would likely (mostly) be adults, etc.

Ok, so not to take away from the madness that is the russian mob... or Nurok's #### threats as these things are certainly important (pfft).

But, speaking of edges. Have you guys considered hand picking a few edges for every class that are always chosen and turning them into automatically attained edges for skill perfection?

In other words, when you perfect tune for a bard you are granted perfect pitch.

I think this would be a neat little addition and take away from some of the "less edge points" earned while at the same time bring individuals skills that were slightly nerfed (as in during the edge point introduction, certain skills worked worse without said edge) and bringing them back to standard once you perfect them.

Ok, enough rambling, thanks.

nt

There are many players, myself included, that really do appreciate very much so all that you do for the game. You listen to the players and give feedback. Sometimes what we say gets bounced around by you and other imms to the point that positive changes are made to the game. That is huge! I too hope he was just speaking out of anger. I cannot thank you enough for your efforts put forth to this game. Please don't let one bothered soul hinder your spirit. Thank you, and best wishes.

Well, you did some seriously unpopular changes. You didn't brought up any discussions about it to the playerbase pre changes. Basicaly you made it just because you thought that you had the right to do it. Please understand that this is an incredibly pathetic thing for an adult to do. I'm sure that if your actual friends, peers, bosses, etc. knew this is how you behave (or even think) that you would be embarrassed and ashamed.

Like pretty much every single change that has ever occurred on the mud, there was discussion among the staff before it happened. And just like always, the changes that happen on the mud are driven by the decisions of the staff.

As a random aside, I think you probably missed the point of the initial post because the point you are trying to make isn't relevant to it.

Then replace word 'Umiron' with word 'staff'. Nothing new really. The third site apeared for the same reasons. You just don't care and learn and then play surprise when same things happen again and again.

Nah, the third site appeared because people wanted to info share and assumed that those not sharing info were trying to gain advantage instead of respecting area authors' wishes or -gasp- encouraging people to interact with other chars to learn stuff ic.

I've shared loads ic. The solution to K'tengs. Locations of wands and quests. If you befriend someone ic they normally do share these things. Gorach, for example, showed me sharkbait which my char lokrin then shared with a total newb because the newb was rping a bounty hunter wannabe and I was rping a bounty hunter guild leader wannabe.

Sadly he then posted it on the forums and shark bait was no more.

I think the staff is too close to the numbers, and not close enough to the game these days. I had a whole long post about it, but it's not terribly succinct.

In summary of my super long post:

Polling is easy. www.surveymonkey.com. Find out what people want before you start investing time in it. You'll burn yourself out writing a "great thing" that may just not be that popular.

Remember that you're building a game for the players, not for the staff. Keep the experience in mind, and use numbers to set/reset expectations, not infer user experience from.

The butthurt is everywhere, both player and staff. Stop pretending it's just the players or just the staff that have the butthurt. Get over the butthurt.

If you're not playing a mortal often, your perspective is probably not as valid as the players when it comes to things being cool or sucking.

"Game is for the players" is misconception widely accepted because of democratic procedures. Game is always for the staff and its founders. High population is good for the staff, makes them feel needed and all. But in the end, the game is ALWAYS for the implementors.

As a side effect, we enjoy it as players - hooray.

I don't disagree with you that there would be value in running polls. I'll offer these two thoughts in response, though:

1) Players (or more broadly, users) are notorious for not actually wanting or responding positively to the things they ask for, even in cases where the feedback process is planned and executed well. That doesn't mean it can't be useful, but anyone who thinks that "just give the people what they ask for" applied literally is a good strategy is wrong in my always-so-humble opinion. Polls and surveys aren't something we've explored much, however I think it's fair to say that in general we receive a lot of feedback, ranging from articulate analysis and polished arguments to good old fashioned hate mail.

2) Most of us do our best to meld our definition of fun with that of the majority of the players because that's mutually advantageous. That said, CF isn't a job we get compensated for (specifically, the admin/coding/building aspects often don't even compensate us in "fun dollars"), and thus for many of us, the only way it makes sense to contribute is by trying to create the kind of game that's fun for us and hope enough other people like it too. That doesn't mean we always allow our own opinions trump what players want or what we think is objectively good for the game (even of we personally disagree), which is just one reason why sometimes the people with the authority to assert their way don't end up getting their way.

Hopefully every staff member and player can see, acknowledge, and appreciate that the game is all about give and take, and that compromise and middle ground exists everywhere in the design and progression of CF.

And this change was right from it and its fine.

But I would prefer - ap style change.

Kill bad guys - get more edge points.

Spam kill weak guys - get nothing.

And Mr. Nurok needs to chill.

No good things happen when greatly contributing imms start taking things personally.

They do have the right to do it. Unilaterally. The staff may be wrong about whether a given change is likely to make the game "better" and/or attract more users, but if the change was made with the goal of making the game better and/or attracting more players (as opposed to having been made just to "spite" certain players) then making that change was not "an incredibly pathetic thing for an adult to do".

TLDR version: you're drawing a false equivalence.

If secret stuff got posted here or on dios it would be taken down. If it's passed around via AIM - that crowd already has the maps and has done for years.

Nt

It crossed a line in terms of personal attacks on imms, but the game was fine.

Personal reason why:
I'm not 100% sure I was the first one who made a discovery of how to get through a questy portal, but I can tell you that no one in the vast amount of characters I interacted with, with Saersha or any other character of mine, knew of anyone who had ever been through. I took a large group through there and a day or two later I was discussing what lay beyond with someone IC and a lowbie interrupted us and described the what was beyond the portal in detail. No matter the build, I enjoy explorer RP. This was the only time I had ever felt like I discovered something on CF and that site sapped that feeling out of the game. Every time someone asked that character a question and they responded, hold on I have to think about that for a little while, I grit my teeth.

Community reason why:
Yes, veterans know things with each character their characters should not. Some people even have OOC friends who feed them info. CF knowledge is like an athlete's physique. Skill ultimately decides if you're a good basketball player, but a good physique is important. CF knowledge is important, so it is it's own reward. Complaining that one does not enough time to explore is not a valid argument. It's an argument that someone's hard work not be rewarded because you do not care enough to earn that reward yourself. If you want to know where something is, ask IC. I can't recall ever searching for something that way and having everyone refuse to tell me. PK oriented players can still PK while gaining item/prep knowledge, because PK is spread out through a character's entire life, while knowledge will stick with you. Anyway, /rant.