Moving this here so as not to pollute Aldon's goodbye thread.

> The fact that garrotte fails regularly with a reuse timer

What do you mean by re-use timer? The physical sleep protection with duration exceeding the garrotte duration? Blackjack and weaponbutt blackjack work the same way so binders aren't being singled out here.

> and then you have bind legs and bind hands which both fail regularly even perfected, and can only be tried once

It's basically a crap shoot when you get someone knocked out. If you can bind them up then they're probably toast unless they're one of the classes that's resist_binder. If you can't bind them then you're probably not getting the kill. If it helps, try thinking of it as more like assassinate.

> Did I mention that shapeshift, vanish, or ANY commune works while trussed?

You sure about vanish? I feel like I killed a couple assassins with my one binder. Though, maybe they didn't realize it was possible to vanish while trussed.

Can also curse communers with scrolls if you took those skills. But yeah, in general, communers and shifters are going to be harder to kill.

> one I couldn't get him from North Galadon road to the Maus before he woke up...

FWIW very few of my kills with the one binder I played came from dragging people nasty places.

> I encourage someone to explain how sleep+forget or the power of assassinate/pwk/cleave/etc is any different.

If you 1. have the relevant preps on hand and, 2. aren't dealing with a level 51 necro, and 3. didn't get slept in an area with a handy summon spot, then you should be able to flee/teleport and survive.

Assassinate is a better comparison in that it's a dice roll. But the binder can be worrisome to certain classes that generally aren't worried about assassinate. Other thieves, to give one example, should be worried about an enemy binder. Or, to be fair, an enemy poisoner.

> Lithodora nearly two-rounded me

"Nearly" seems like its a fairly important word here. How would that character have fared if you'd gotten the drop on them and then been lucky enough to truss them up? Maybe not so hot.

>What do you mean by re-use timer? The physical sleep
>protection with duration exceeding the garrotte duration?
>Blackjack and weaponbutt blackjack work the same way so
>binders aren't being singled out here.

I mean that your entire class depends on this working, and every other thief has other options to do while they're awake. You should be able to reuse garrotte if you're a full binder like reusing sleep as a necro/bard/AP/etc. It also felt to be a lot higher failure rate than say knockout poison.

>It's basically a crap shoot when you get someone knocked out.
>If you can bind them up then they're probably toast unless
>they're one of the classes that's resist_binder. If you can't
>bind them then you're probably not getting the kill. If it
>helps, try thinking of it as more like assassinate.

It's worse odds than a crap shoot... and the amount of classes that are resist_binder is fairly long. If any of several skills fail, you're not doing anything - and even trussed, it's not a guarantee (as people can miraculously show up even gagged, non-PK people untying, etc etc). You're visible the entire process, so unless you're basically killing someone alone who doesn't have OOC friends and is not going to be bothered by anyone in the zone, you have maaaaybe a 30% chance. I'd have killed way more people with assassinate.

>> Did I mention that shapeshift, vanish, or ANY commune works
>while trussed?
>
>You sure about vanish? I feel like I killed a couple
>assassins with my one binder. Though, maybe they didn't
>realize it was possible to vanish while trussed.

Dead positive, I have logs from Zakuun to show it as it was a personal petpeeve of him.

>Can also curse communers with scrolls if you took those
>skills. But yeah, in general, communers and shifters are
>going to be harder to kill.

I wanted Tormenting Bully since it's never been taken in the history of CF (seriously, check the forums) but that requires basically nothing but binding and thug. I had scrolls, but the amount of scrolls you need to land on people like that is tedious... and if I wanted to focus on scrolls, I could remake zakuun (part arcane with maran scrolls).

>FWIW very few of my kills with the one binder I played came
>from dragging people nasty places.

So you basically land a bunch of restrictive crap, that falls almost immediately, and what did it really gain you at all? Why not just be another thief and have a much higher kill rate, not be completely useless in raids/groups, and have something to do. A full path binder is like playing an AP who only uses "cleave+flee" and hopes it works.

>
>If you 1. have the relevant preps on hand and, 2. aren't
>dealing with a level 51 necro, and 3. didn't get slept in an
>area with a handy summon spot, then you should be able to
>flee/teleport and survive.

You mean like newts or hitting mobs to wake you or all the ways that your entire class is negated? Necros, APs, Bards and other thieves have actually other options.

>Assassinate is a better comparison in that it's a dice roll.
>But the binder can be worrisome to certain classes that
>generally aren't worried about assassinate. Other
>thieves, to give one example, should be worried about an enemy
>binder. Or, to be fair, an enemy poisoner.

Actually, they're not. I tango'd with Zaheera, Tummel and Lithodora a few times and needless to say I got my face punched in. The only thing you need to stop a binder is not get knocked out and/or prep, have friends, hit a mob before engaging, etc.

I'd compare binder killrate to an AP who used nothing but cleave and trip. Anything else and they're more scary

>> Lithodora nearly two-rounded me
>
>"Nearly" seems like its a fairly important word here. How
>would that character have fared if you'd gotten the drop on
>them and then been lucky enough to truss them up? Maybe not
>so hot.

Eh, she used a soften scroll and I was taken *** normal hits through aura. GG heartseekers and other sexy goodie gear. I think I lost 650hp in 2 rounds and wimped out with 50 left and she failed parting block. If I had knocked her out? Let's assume for a moment that it actually worked (which it never did in the 100+ hours of Aldon), I would have stole her potions to get away and then stole any backup weapons... but I can't sleepingdisarm a no-disarm weapon, so, I backstab. The build didn't have cheapshot or parting block, so they're getting out in 2 rounds - and bindings almost always fell round 1-2 as a dexy char. Level 42 is too early for crimson/plague/rot scrolls so maybe it'd be different later on, but doubtful. I'm telling ya, it's a pretty crappy build. Max binder, gutshot, scrolls/gentle/adv picklock... requires 2x devious because of gutshot requirement. I really wanted Tormented Bully

As I said, the theoretical killing power does not add up. There is not a single deathful binder thief *ever made*. Iltch is the only one I can even think of and it was a very different time, lot more foes, and the main reason they were scary was the AP weapon steal. There's not even a single binder in the top 20. Binders are the nightmare material for APs and that's it.

As nererial a binder was one of the few classes to destroy me.

The thing that scares me most about fighting lithodora is bind legs.

You have the potential to kill almost anyone. Also aren't the skills meant to work a bit better when you have them all?

Finally, I am not sure lithodora's heartseeker plus elf sword is the best example, because she could also be a binder with those things

The mob tracking issue is easily addressed. A scroll of invis or engaging the mob.

Bind legs doesn't stop fleeing does it? Just makes walking around a lot harder once you've fled.

It can make you trip instead of flee, so yes.

Several times someone just limped away. It's like hamstring plus, it KILLS your movement walking with it, but it's very easy to just flee and get potion worn container and gtfo.

I've played multiple binders, and while they have their frustrations, I've also done really NASTY things to lots of people with them as well.

One thing I feel like you're ignoring is that...yes, binders CAN be lacking in a solo fight. However, there's no other build that can utterly shut down another character (for EXTENDED periods of time even) like a binder can. Finally, binder are practically *THE* ultimate gank buddy.

I think the main issue is the lack of pk range for him. When I had success with binders there was a LOT of people to mess most of the time. The more chances you have of going out and tying people up the more often you'll actually succeed. If your pk opportunities are only every once in a while, yeah, you fail all the time and it is very noticeable. The class itself is pretty scary and is a Kingbreaker.

I think the only substantial change to binders since my last one was they fixed the sleepingdisarm skill so that it wakes people up when it succeeds or fails, I think it used to only wake people up on successes, which I really didn't think was that OP considering the KO has a short duration to begin with.

I kinda feel like Torak has thrown down the gauntlet and the world needs another decent binder now. >=)

1. Can't really gank as a Scarab, you don't really have options like that. Zakuun had the highest gank ratio I think I've ever seen, I know how to call in the reinforcements, but literally anyone with sleep can do the same thing.

2. 6 hours for truss/tie in the 90s at level 42 with max nimble fingers and rope. Yes, you can "retry" it all but good luck with it all not failing again.

3. You can do "nasty" things a whole lot easier with a wide range of other classes. Sleep+Forget is incredibly easy and much much worse. Knockoutpoison and mind control. Sleep+Summon+Vault. Or how about just assassinate, pwk, or cleave, fiend or neuro or all the other scary options. Landing a garrotte from a binder is not a death sentence and a single sleep from other "sleep classes" is almost guaranteed. I'm more scared of even a poisoner or thug or even trapper knocking me out then a binder.

People keep talking about how scary they are but the last binder wasn't even top 20 and was nearly 8 years ago. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong but it's just not there anymore. You could easily be more "deathful" on any other thief. Sure, you might not get that perfect setup that took you all the time in the world to setup and the guy had to be dumb enough to be alone, not prep, be in certain areas, etc against a binder... but any strong player has ways of dealing with it.... but you could argue the same for assassinate which we all know is deadly and guaranteed.

It's unreasonable for all classes to be equally deathful in solo-pk. It's a bad goal to even have.

I'm not saying I know jack about playing binders (and, personally, they've never scared me much). However, your argument seems to boil down to their deathfulness in solo combat--something they're clearly not designed for.

Binders have literally nothing else besides solo-pk effectiveness. They do nothing in a group, or a raid, or exploring. They literally bring nothing to the table besides "if I can land everything, you might die".

It's just a weak path, all I want is it to be comparable to the others even slightly.

gr

gr

Yup,

Night and day difference when they are finally perfected compared to before.

And I spent a good 10+ hours and it wouldn't budge - think it ended at 88. I even went to the point of putting my skill learn in it. Tie/truss weren't perfected (90s) but you can retry those so it's not really necessary.

>I mean that your entire class depends on this working, and
>every other thief has other options to do while they're awake.

Sure. I grant you that in a given encounter a binder is generally not going to be successful unless the dice rolls result in most of his skills landing.

At hero, at least, this is largely true for other thief builds as well. Most thugs who go for blackjack and miss probably aren't getting the kill. If the thief has a reputation then the target may bail immediately. Or, at hero, the target is often buff enough to beat the thief straight up after the knockout attempt fails. Especially if the thief didn't prep beforehand in order to preserve the element of surprise.

One advantage to the thug build is that there are some scenarios where, compared to the binder, it doesn't have to bother with the knockout attempt. Opponents who are sufficiently weak (and not flying) can just be tripped to death. But there are other scenarios where the binder is going to be more likely to get the kill, even taking into account that his binder skills might fail.

>You should be able to reuse garrotte if you're a full binder
>like reusing sleep as a necro/bard/AP/etc. It also felt to be
>a lot higher failure rate than say knockout poison.

I'm thinking that if this were added we'd have people complaining about it pretty quickly.

>the amount of classes that are resist_binder is fairly long.

It's a matter of how one defines "fairly log". Communers, shifters in form, rager berserkers, and any class with the potential to kill the binder if he misses the garrote (e.g. orc, whip/flail spec, bashing giants, etc.)

>So you basically land a bunch of restrictive crap, that falls
>almost immediately, and what did it really gain you at all?

Well, it dropped their off-hand wield, for one, and kept them in place long enough after a backstab for me to start spamming trip (with cheapshot).

>You mean like newts or hitting mobs to wake you or all the
>ways that your entire class is negated? Necros, APs, Bards and
>other thieves have actually other options.

Nah, I was thinking of teleport potions, something to cure blindness, something to cure poison/disease, and maybe some speckled and silver pills. Basically the stuff you'd need to survive the maledicts after fleeing and teleporting.

>Actually, they're not. I tango'd with Zaheera, Tummel and
>Lithodora a few times and needless to say I got my face
>punched in. The only thing you need to stop a binder is not
>get knocked out and/or prep, have friends, hit a mob before
>engaging, etc.

In my experience with thief fights, whichever thief gets the drop on the other guy in terms of knockout gains a huge advantage. And being knocked out by a binder is generally more worrisome than being knocked out by a thug.

>didn't have cheapshot or parting block

This might have been part of your problem. I'd have to do the math, but there are certain non-binder skills I'd want to have on any binder. Maybe it's not possible to take them if you go "full binder". In that case, I'd recommend not going "full binder". Or just concede that you're going to be somewhat gimped until you can take devious versatility once or twice.

>There is not a single deathful binder thief *ever made*.

It would be interesting if we could get stats for "solo kills per hour at level 51". I feel like there are a lot of thugs that racked up a ton of kills at mid levels and then weren't as successful at hero. FWIW my guy was only slightly less deathful than Iltch. Which is to say "not all that deathful", but still.

They are better then a healer at it but it really shouldn't be your measuring stick.

Thieves shine at utility. Just being able to hide and steal can stop raising parties from trying. Being able to take a person down to change numbers in battle or really set up a seal is nasty. Circle is insane and should net you as many kills as trip.

>>What do you mean by re-use timer? The physical sleep
>>protection with duration exceeding the garrotte duration?
>>Blackjack and weaponbutt blackjack work the same way so
>>binders aren't being singled out here.
>
>I mean that your entire class depends on this working, and
>every other thief has other options to do while they're awake.
>You should be able to reuse garrotte if you're a full binder
>like reusing sleep as a necro/bard/AP/etc. It also felt to be
>a lot higher failure rate than say knockout poison.
>
>>It's basically a crap shoot when you get someone knocked out.

Under ideal conditions garrotte is upwards of 75% reliable.

I think "crap shoot" is a relatively appropriate description of working someone over as a binder thief, and I imagine where we differ is that I think that inherent gamble is what makes the spec balanced and interesting.

>>If you can bind them up then they're probably toast unless
>>they're one of the classes that's resist_binder. If you
>can't
>>bind them then you're probably not getting the kill. If it
>>helps, try thinking of it as more like assassinate.
>
>It's worse odds than a crap shoot... and the amount of classes
>that are resist_binder is fairly long. If any of several
>skills fail, you're not doing anything - and even trussed,
>it's not a guarantee (as people can miraculously show up even
>gagged, non-PK people untying, etc etc). You're visible the
>entire process, so unless you're basically killing someone
>alone who doesn't have OOC friends and is not going to be
>bothered by anyone in the zone, you have maaaaybe a 30%
>chance. I'd have killed way more people with assassinate.

You might have killed way more people than any number of things, and if that were your goal then my recommendation would've been one of those things.

>>> Did I mention that shapeshift, vanish, or ANY commune
>works
>>while trussed?
>>
>>You sure about vanish? I feel like I killed a couple
>>assassins with my one binder. Though, maybe they didn't
>>realize it was possible to vanish while trussed.
>
>Dead positive, I have logs from Zakuun to show it as it was a
>personal petpeeve of him.

Edges, yo.

>>Can also curse communers with scrolls if you took those
>>skills. But yeah, in general, communers and shifters are
>>going to be harder to kill.
>
>I wanted Tormenting Bully since it's never been taken in the
>history of CF (seriously, check the forums) but that requires
>basically nothing but binding and thug. I had scrolls, but the
>amount of scrolls you need to land on people like that is
>tedious... and if I wanted to focus on scrolls, I could remake
>zakuun (part arcane with maran scrolls).

Already addressed this in your email.

>>FWIW very few of my kills with the one binder I played came
>>from dragging people nasty places.
>
>So you basically land a bunch of restrictive crap, that falls
>almost immediately, and what did it really gain you at all?
>Why not just be another thief and have a much higher kill
>rate, not be completely useless in raids/groups, and have
>something to do. A full path binder is like playing an AP who
>only uses "cleave+flee" and hopes it works.

Nonsense.

>>
>>If you 1. have the relevant preps on hand and, 2. aren't
>>dealing with a level 51 necro, and 3. didn't get slept in an
>>area with a handy summon spot, then you should be able to
>>flee/teleport and survive.
>
>You mean like newts or hitting mobs to wake you or all the
>ways that your entire class is negated? Necros, APs, Bards and
>other thieves have actually other options.

This things are relevant well under 1% of the time.

>>Assassinate is a better comparison in that it's a dice roll.
>
>>But the binder can be worrisome to certain classes that
>>generally aren't worried about assassinate. Other
>>thieves, to give one example, should be worried about an
>enemy
>>binder. Or, to be fair, an enemy poisoner.
>
>Actually, they're not. I tango'd with Zaheera, Tummel and
>Lithodora a few times and needless to say I got my face
>punched in. The only thing you need to stop a binder is not
>get knocked out and/or prep, have friends, hit a mob before
>engaging, etc.

And yet, "not get knocked out" fails to work for a lot of people, as does having allies, etc.

>I'd compare binder killrate to an AP who used nothing but
>cleave and trip. Anything else and they're more scary

I wouldn't.

>>> Lithodora nearly two-rounded me
>>
>>"Nearly" seems like its a fairly important word here. How
>>would that character have fared if you'd gotten the drop on
>>them and then been lucky enough to truss them up? Maybe not
>>so hot.
>
>Eh, she used a soften scroll and I was taken *** normal hits
>through aura. GG heartseekers and other sexy goodie gear. I
>think I lost 650hp in 2 rounds and wimped out with 50 left and
>she failed parting block. If I had knocked her out? Let's
>assume for a moment that it actually worked (which it never
>did in the 100+ hours of Aldon), I would have stole her
>potions to get away and then stole any backup weapons... but I
>can't sleepingdisarm a no-disarm weapon, so, I backstab. The
>build didn't have cheapshot or parting block, so they're
>getting out in 2 rounds - and bindings almost always fell
>round 1-2 as a dexy char. Level 42 is too early for
>crimson/plague/rot scrolls so maybe it'd be different later
>on, but doubtful. I'm telling ya, it's a pretty crappy build.
>Max binder, gutshot, scrolls/gentle/adv picklock... requires
>2x devious because of gutshot requirement. I really wanted
>Tormented Bully

I don't see any of this as relevant to an objective analysis of the path.

>As I said, the theoretical killing power does not add up.
>There is not a single deathful binder thief *ever made*. Iltch
>is the only one I can even think of and it was a very
>different time, lot more foes, and the main reason they were
>scary was the AP weapon steal. There's not even a single
>binder in the top 20. Binders are the nightmare material for
>APs and that's it.

I 100% believe there are players capable of putting a (full) binder in the "top 20" if they wanted to. The fact that the spec isn't the obvious choice, or even a serious one, does not in and of itself bother me.

> Under ideal conditions garrotte is upwards of 75% reliable.

Since you mentioned it...can you comment on whether there are any non-obvious things that impact garrotte chances? I've always wondered about:

1. Target resting vs. standing vs. sleeping.

2. Binder PK adrenaline high vs. not high.

3. Target PK adrenaline high vs. not high.

4. Binder's skill percentage in nimble fingers.

5. Target can see binder vs. target can't see binder.

6. Binder's hitroll.

>> Under ideal conditions garrotte is upwards of 75%
>reliable.
>
>Since you mentioned it...can you comment on whether there are
>any non-obvious things that impact garrotte chances? I've
>always wondered about:
>
>1. Target resting vs. standing vs. sleeping.
>
>2. Binder PK adrenaline high vs. not high.
>
>3. Target PK adrenaline high vs. not high.
>
>4. Binder's skill percentage in nimble fingers.
>
>5. Target can see binder vs. target can't see binder.
>
>6. Binder's hitroll.

Most of this is accurate enough. Hitroll doesn't matter, various other binding skills can provide a bonus, and of course various abilities can make it less effective or prevent it entirely (e.g., ears of the bat, aura of despair, alertness, etc.).

Really not trying to be obtuse here...but when you say "most of this is accurate enough" do you mean that the things I listed (besides hitroll) actually do matter?

If numbers 2, 3 and 5 actually matter, that seems worth mentioning in the help file since they have pretty big implications for binder strategy.

>Really not trying to be obtuse here...but when you say "most
>of this is accurate enough" do you mean that the things I
>listed (besides hitroll) actually do matter?
>
>If numbers 2, 3 and 5 actually matter, that seems worth
>mentioning in the help file since they have pretty big
>implications for binder strategy.

2, 3, and 5 all matter to some degree. That said, I'm fine with the helpfile as-is. It should go without saying that things like adrenaline and whether a victim can see you probably factor in to skills that rely on stealth and finesse.

I kind of like that some things have to be figured out through play.

If they didn't, and were spelled out for us, I'm sure more skills would need toning down.

Attachment #1, ( file)

I'm in favor of that too *when something can actually be figured out*.

I'm also okay with the help file as is *if* those factors also impact the other thief skills, e.g. blackjack, weaponbutt blackjack, etc.

But let's imagine a scenario where garrotte is significantly impacted by thief visibility and target and/or thief adrenaline but the blackjack skill isn't.

In that case, a binder who is jumped by someone might want to flee, return and blackjack them, but not garrotte them.

Also if that thief sees an enemy duergar (or another thief) trucking down the road, he's going to want to try to blackjack that guy and not garrotte him. Etc. etc.

How would he know to do the one (blackjack) and not the other (garrotte)? I'm not sure how he would.

I may be mistaken but I feel like there is consistency though. Could of course be wrong!

Let's go off some history....

1. I complained that trap thieves were fundamentally broken about a week or two after they came out. I was yelled at by the imms for saying I didn't know what I was talking about. Trap thieves then after years first had their skills fixed (so they actually worked), then upgraded in effectiveness, then giving sub-effects like impale/blind/etc and then even given new skills like the bag/dusts/powders. I complained for *years* and it finally was changed when people realized I wasn't wrong and now they're a forced to be reckoned with.

2. I complained about arcane thieves when they were introduced and how many times has hypnotize gone under the knife? I still think it's not an effective path beyond lore of the ages (if you need more defenses, but don't want shield block) and no one has really "made good use of them" yet so time will tell if I'm wrong or not but honestly I still feel that hypnotize is bad.

3. This is my third binder char (2 heroes and this was 42).

You can tell me I'm wrong and that binders are "fine" but everyone claims they're scary and effective and yet NO ONE has done it. Even if you want to not count total pks and go off "deathfulness" then I assure you, binder thieves are not even in my top 15 class/paths. The only singular fear I have of a binder thief is if I'm an AP and that's it. For all the mountains of work and conditions required to land a successful truss and corner them somewhere you can kill them alone and interrupted, I could have just as well done the exact same effort for better results on a multitude of classes. I'm more terrified of a poisoner or trapper or thug, by a large amount, then any binder. I'm more scared of cheap shot on a hiding class than the entire binder path.

You want to disagree, fine, but in a decade I'll say I told you so

I killed Kjrorh as Kasir. Twice I think. Pretty sure I couldn't have done that as Ageryn (thug) if Kjrorh had been alive during Ageryn's lifetime.

They should limit traps to one per room. People would still spam through them sometimes.

You also say bedouin rangers suck because you have played four and not found success. I am sure there are a couple different people who can say otherwise at this point, so it might just be one of those things where the design does not work for the way *you* choose to play but that doesn't mean its broken.

The only useful skill is dervishdance... maaaybe endure heat.

Sure it's a nice spike of damage but there's a whole lot of other terrains I'd rather take. Especially where you don't sacrifice snare and bearcharge and entangle (pretty core abilities).

The whole point of this is just around balance. If you're playing it for RP reasons, sure, anything can be played however they want... and some ranger can hide in the desert for hours when no one ever goes to those areas anymore.... or you could try and see that restricting yourself to such a small terrain merits a very strong path. It's kind of why water shifters are significantly stronger in their domain... because they can't be used out of their domain.

I'd argue that bedouin are the same in literally every terrain, including civilized.

It *is* balanced. Its just not tailored to the way that *you* want to play.

And man, those trapper and arcane thieves, were perfect all along.... and I'm not even getting into other classes I gave feedback on.

We're not going to agree. There's a reason the game is flooded with certain classes and I assure you it's because the game isn't perfectly balanced. There was, what, one bedouin the last year? And he deleted because he couldn't beat a gnome ranger

You play one of those super unbalanced way too powerful classes that exist and be amazing. It should be easy for you to do if the classes are really broken. And then when you are finished with the character, you can give us a full blown feedback on what exactly is wrong with them in terms of what is too good and should be fixed.

You're talking to the guy who just had a gnome ranger I don't enjoy playing strong builds, I try to play the unsung hero builds that are generally underpowered and try to make them work. I haven't played an assassin or muter or a dexy warrior in... at least a decade. I'm trying to bring the bottom half of the balance scale up...

I'm a Johnny, not a Spike.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b

Because your idea was to be a Maran so you could use the amazing Maran talismans really fast with your ranger.

Had you played a gnome ranger without access to these talismans, as I did, I would then agree you play underpowered characters.

1.) you are really really underestimating how useful dervish dance is.
2.) being able to camo in deserts is key in and against certain people

Honestly losing snare isn't that big a deal, you can't as easily control a choke point but it drives people off more often then it lands kills. The trade off is you have very respectable direct damage which lets you bring the fight to people you would otherwise be using dirt disarm on.

Also on a really high damage ranger waylay/dervish is a Carlton of damage really really fast.

Meh, wrote a counter argument but done arguing it. If people want to prove me wrong, make a badass bedouin. The last fire giant who did it, had like +75 damage and he deleted his hero ranger in like a week.

Out of the current archive of rangers, the #3, #7, #8, and #11 highest pk counts are all bedouin. Your move good sir.

Edit: And for fun, three of those were a hunter bedouin which lots of people would argue is the WORST ranger build possible.

I'm going off of http://www.qhcf.net/premium/pkstats.php

First off, hunter bedouin is arguably the strongest bedouin because you can actually tank, your bow hits which are a lot of damage are used the same for dervish dance, and ironically you have other crap to do since you lost all your core snare/bearcharge/entangle anyways.

Moving on... from the list above the only 3 bedouins in the top 25 of rangers.

Iklahn = #5, 188 kills, Savage Bedouin in 800 hours!
Makiki = #12, 82 kills, Hunter Bedouin in 200 hours. (never hero'd)
Paccha = #17, 67 kills, Hunter Bedouin in 200 hours. (never hero'd)

Stopped looking after the first 25. So yeah, if you want to brag about that - have at it. The top bedouin with 800 freaking hours isn't even in the top 75... and Makiki isn't even top #500. Paccha was the highest kills per hour, at 0.327, but with a whopping 67 kills before he deleted... and we've got guys who go for 100 by level 35, really not seeing how you can even compare bedouins being decent.

There's only been 9 rangers over 50 kills in the last 4 years.

Destuvius was referencing a data set that only goes back to 2010 and the server crash.

And I retract the polite and supportive comment I made in response to your email about joining the staff some day. Please never apply.

"There's only been 9 rangers over 50 kills in the last 4 years."

Sorry but I'm just not convinced from his numbers that it makes bedouins "balanced" as he said. He said "your move" and has been wanting to keep this going from his posts (not sure why but he's always has seemed to have beef with me). Listing a bunch of rankings on a severely small pool of characters with under 50 pks doesn't add up.

Sorry you feel that way Umiron, I like hashing things out - getting replies like "you don't know what you're talking about" is the first line defense it seems to my balance requests where historically it's just not been true.... what usually happens is some IMP plays a character and goes "huh, trapper thieves were bad". Just as Lhydia said, I threw down the gauntlet - someone out there can prove me wrong on binders, go for it.

I don't feel I went over the line in being rude or anything - really not getting why you just went full nuclear like that.

ever since they lost 2 tick dirt kick even if outside terrain they've lost their luster. i know it can hit randomly now but it isn't the same

anyway, i wouldn't say you're being a brat but if you want to advocate for change this thread probably isn't how to do it, tone-wise

I got sucked in, yet again... I learned awhile ago that my way of talking about it on forums just doesn't work. It just comes across as frustrating to me when I say "I've spent 300-500 hours on multiple characters across several cabals/alignments, have 20+ years of background in the game and have noticed this class doesn't perform as well as it should" and to hear back "Nope, you don't know what you're talking about".

I didn't even bring up bedouin rangers for crying out loud... but somehow that's related to this that "You don't know what you're talking about".

So yeah, binders and bedouin are awesome - prove me wrong. Let's see if we see more than one a year...

..with two separate characters.

I AM NOT GOOD AT THIS CLASS LET ME POINT OUT WHY I AM NOT GOOD. IF X Y Z WAS A B C INSTEAD I WOULD BE GOOD AT THIS CLASS BUT IT IS NOT THAT WAY AND IT SHOULD BE THAT WAY AND LET ME EMAIL YOU A CRITIQUE BASED ON 62 HOURS OF GAME PLAY EVEN THOUGH COMBINED YOU GUYS HAVE PUT OVER 1,000 HOURS INTO HOW THE CLASS PLAYS OUT OH BY THE WAY DID YOU WANT TO LET ME IMM I AM VIP ON DIOS AND ALTHOUGH I HAVE CHEATED WITH BUDS AND RELEASED WAND LISTS IN THE PAST I AM ASSET FOR THE GAME BUT SERIOUSLY GUYS I AM THE BEST AND I SHOULD BE A POWERHOUSE AND IF YOU LOOK AT MY SUGGESTIONS I WIL BE GOOD AT THIS CLASS AND THEN IT WILL BE A GOOD CLASS.

I dont have a beef with you on a personal level. I have an issue with your inability to realize that your opinion is not always right. You keep asking for things to prove you wrong and when they come up you attempt to discredit their value to try and reprove your opinion as hard fact.

I still stand by my previous challenge to you of playing one of the unbalanced too strong builds that exist and give the rundown of why its broken. You seem to be willing to "help" when it comes to things you feel to be broken in a negative way. Why not apply that same effort into fixing something that is broken in a "good" way if you want balance across the board.

I don't know, I might need a break for awhile.

When I get on edge like this, I just don't stop because I think the conversation is going fine and then someone says "Dude, you're coming across as an asshole". Telling me "You were wrong on bedouins" stings and it shouldn't. I should just roll off and agree to disagree but no... I've got to keep trying to change your mind for some reason.

Even Mekantos, my best friend for years, told me to stop posting because he knew I was coming across as a know-it-all asshole when I didn't really mean it. I like debating and could talk for hours about why X is better than Y in Z situations.

Oh well - sorry. If I offended you guys, didn't mean to.

Look at gank-o-meter (2.38), he had 188 kills (117 vs battle)
but only 87 solo.

Effective ranger? Sure
Effective nexun? Sure

Proving bedouins are not bad? If you're ganking the #### out of ragers all the time,
sure.

Snare is the 2nd most important skill for ranger interested in killing lots of people,
at hero, after waylay/ambush.

How many deathful rangers have you played? My guess is 0.