(Disclaimer: don't take this post as an invitation to carry on the Village parity debate below. It is fair to say that anyone with a strong opinion on the matter has had an opportunity to weigh in by now.)

I would like to address something here though, which really is quite important:

1) Different Immortals bring different skill sets to the game:

CF is a game with a broad range of requirements and is collaborative in nature. These include administrative tasks (help file writing, proofreading, role rating, bug management), policing the game (ensuring that people play fairly, maintaining a standard in certain things pertaining to RP, names etc.), creation of new content (areas, quests, religions etc.), and many coding tasks too. There has never, ever, been an Immortal in the history of CF (to my knowledge) who was able to excel in everything*. Nor could a single Immortal run this game without starving to death from lack of income. We can argue the merits of all of those tasks, in fact the Immortals sometimes do argue this among themselves. Regardless, the point should be clear: no (wo)man is an island where running this game is concerned.

2) Imms are unpaid volunteers**:

In the same way that players play this game to enjoy it, the Immortals RUN the game for enjoyment. If that enjoyment ceases to exist, they tend to burn out. This is really critical. Some very good Immortals have been lost by an excessively negative public opinion. They burn out. If any of you guys/girls are stuck in a soul-sucking job, something you hate, you are probably doing it for pay. Imagine your boss removed that payment and still expected you to come to work? Yup. That's being a CF Imm without having fun in the process.

3) Imms are people:

We have good and bad days, just like players. The difference as a player mainly being that if you break role, or screw up, you might end up RoTD talking with someone. If you do it as an Immortal you risk the ire of 40% of the player base. We try to make everyone happy and we try to keep things running but in a game with a variety of personalities, I don't think any change will simultaneously please everyone. We don't make decisions just to cause drama. Most of the time drama is time consuming and unproductive. Which leads me to my final point..

4) In many cases upsetting the players = doing something:

Yes. For some reason the least liked immortals are often the ones who are actively trying to improve the game. They are the members who are most involved in rule enforcement, monitoring RP to ensure cabals are distinct and not just the CF equivalent of PoS. Or they are also the ones making code changes etc. In fact, the only time I think a "generally positive" change has been made, is when everyone simultaneously receives something beneficial. As nice as that is, I don't think it's a realistic expectation. We'd end up destroying the core of CF if we proceeded down that path forever (this is CF after all, not Hello Kitty Island Adventure).

Furthermore there are some Immortal tasks, like dealing with RoTD stuff, or cracking down on cheaters which are grubbier by their definition as they bring said Imm into potential conflict with the player and/or players. They are the jobs most Immortals are more than happy to neglect. We should not foster an atmosphere within this community of encouraging a "let it slide" response to cheating. Cheating and/or corruption of the core of the community will destroy this game more rapidly than anything else. I can guarantee that.

On a final, important note: I really appreciate you guys speaking up for me in the below here, but many of the Immortals are people which I would genuinely consider to be good friends. Destuvius and Verathi are two of the most active presences in the game currently. I'd rather not be compared to them RE: "Mendos is awesome, he helps newbies". Both of them are extremely active in other areas of the game. It is because of their hard work and diligence that mopes like me can help new players out***. Pigeon-holing and proceeding to name drop Immortals in a positive, or negative light is just going to stoke resentment among staff-members. It is not conducive to a smoothly running game.

PS: If you have made it this far thank you for taking time to read this. If you want to show appreciation for the continued efforts of the staff, play the game to enjoy it, involve other players in your fun or take time out of your session help a newbie. Verbal shows of gratitude are neither expected nor are they necessary.

*For instance, I am really crappy at PK and PK mechanics. I like creative stuff. I will most likely turn to other staff (like Dest or Vera) who have a better gauge of balance for any mechanical rewards. I frequently turn to Imms with more of a clue for help here.
**A claim that not even the worst and most ham-fisted politician or law enforcement officer in your general locale can make. They get paid for their time.
***Speaking of, both of these Imms have xpad'd players who were helping newbies out in the last week. And that's just that I have witnessed.

Meh...

I didn't pick through the majority of this thread or the last big thread, I skimmed enough to get the same point that is always being driven by both sides.

I think one thing that everyone needs to realize (and how you react to this is entirely on each individual person). The reason that CF is so absolutely glorious is the inherent reason people are going to get emotional steamrolled by it, the level of investment. The investment can be emotion, intellectual, time, labor, etc... but it is there and the reason this game is better than the rest is the fact that you pour a lot of work into a single character (on the player side at least) and in an instant you can lose it all, there is a definitive sense of loss.

Anyway, I don't really know where I am going with all this, just wanted to point out that everyone that has put in effort into this game has an opinion that holds weight, none of them are necessarily right or wrong. But as long as we all try have decent sportsmanship, whether winning or losing, then everything will work itself out.

nt

I definitely feel a sense of loss when I end one of my characters. I think that is where all of the emotion comes from. No psychiatric mumbo jumbo to follow.

Step away, shake it off and let it go. Then come back to read and reply.

I think that realization would help a lot.

My post blew up into a meandering ramble but what it basically comes down to in my mind is..

"Lots of Imms do a ton of stuff that isn't seen by most players. Please don't put me out there as a shining example for the other Imms because:

1) I'm not. Other Imms do a superb job in other areas.
2) It makes me uncomfortable on a personal level."

And that's not PR fluff, that's my honest opinion based on what I've witnessed and how I feel reading some threads.

People are welcome to formulate whatever opinions they like based on their experiences. But if people keep acting like I'm the only guy working hard and doing good things for the game, I swear I'll put on my "biggest d*ck in CF hat" and do RoTD duty until I'm vilified for eternity

1) Your title should be Mendos, Head of CF Public Relations.

2) I like Destuvius. Not sure why anyone would think otherwise. If I didn't like him my last evil character wouldn't have been in Empire under his spheres. Just because I think he handled something poorly (DISCLAIMER: MY OPINION) doesn't mean I hate the guy. In fact, I like him (and ANY Battle IMM to be honest) so much that I wasted a few hours of my life trying to help him and Verathi. Did I do so in a way that ruffled feathers? It appears so. It is what it is.

3) Re: Your points ----

1 - Totally agree.

2 - Meh. I don't get paid to CF either. I hate this line of thinking because it further drives a wedge between players/immortals. Unless you are actively coding, who cares that you don't get paid? If you want to delete...delete. I'd feel worse if someone was just going through the motions.

3 - Players are PEOPLE TOO. Many of us WANT constructive criticism (I DO, AT LEAST). I wish more IMMs were secure enough to take some of the criticism's that way (my man Twist seems to IMHO) instead of getting all huffy and pulling the "fine I'll just delete HAPPY?" or "thread locked" card.

4) I agree. I think the change to imperial lands is awesome. I love the NPC healing. I REALLY ####ING LOVE that rewards and edge's have been toned down. Please don't think just because I'm vocal in a situation that hits "home" for me (I've played a goodie rager leader...there has only been 5 of us so it's pretty rare) that I'm not also championing a lot of other stuff you do.

Finally, I'm a big fan of yours because you really seem to excel as a player-staff liason, which is awesome and/or vital to continued success of CF.

Since we're throwing out "thata-boys" now Umiron has really stepped up to be Baby Z in my eyes, well on the path to somehow (SOMEHOW) replacing Zulg...he's been awesome.

1) Your title should be Mendos, Head of CF Public Relations.

Maybe. I don't really like association with PR generally, because when I think PR (being from the UK) I think of politicians trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. I tend to only post stuff I would genuinely stand by.

2) I like Destuvius. Not sure why anyone would think otherwise. If I didn't like him my last evil character wouldn't have been in Empire under his spheres. Just because I think he handled something poorly (DISCLAIMER: MY OPINION) doesn't mean I hate the guy. In fact, I like him (and ANY Battle IMM to be honest) so much that I wasted a few hours of my life trying to help him and Verathi. Did I do so in a way that ruffled feathers? It appears so. It is what it is.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion. No question there. I know you guys only see a sliver of what goes on behind the scenes.

I'm not talking for Destuvius here. This is my opinion, but I would get worn down by this for sure. I was already writing this when I spoke with Destuvius today since I was name-dropped and thought that a lot of other people are a lot more deserving of praise than I am. Seriously. I benefit in that my presence is visible and doesn't really interfere with anyone's game. Unlike code changes, or running a very PK/RP heavy and highly competitive cabal.

3) Re: Your points ----

1 - Totally agree.

2 - Meh. I don't get paid to CF either. I hate this line of thinking because it further drives a wedge between players/immortals. Unless you are actively coding, who cares that you don't get paid? If you want to delete...delete. I'd feel worse if someone was just going through the motions.

I totally agree with the time input from players. Really. Having said that, a player can step away from their character and watch it auto. Nobody will really care (unless you are a leader).

Imms have the added pressure of empowerees, cabals, ongoing quests. Letting down other folks who need to pick up the slack of being down another staff member. In short, if you walk away, it is not a decision which should be made lightly.

3 - Players are PEOPLE TOO. Many of us WANT constructive criticism (I DO, AT LEAST). I wish more IMMs were secure enough to take some of the criticism's that way (my man Twist seems to IMHO) instead of getting all huffy and pulling the "fine I'll just delete HAPPY?" or "thread locked" card.

I try to give constructive criticism where there is an avenue for it. Also.. my original post included a paragraph about both Imms/players being people and (a lot of imms playing too). I chopped it because of jumble and length.

4) I agree. I think the change to imperial lands is awesome. I love the NPC healing. I REALLY ####ING LOVE that rewards and edge's have been toned down. Please don't think just because I'm vocal in a situation that hits "home" for me (I've played a goodie rager leader...there has only been 5 of us so it's pretty rare) that I'm not also championing a lot of other stuff you do.

Finally, I'm a big fan of yours because you really seem to excel as a player-staff liason, which is awesome and/or vital to continued success of CF.

I'm trying. The market conditions are not in our favor (or any other MUD for that matter.) That is also compounded by the volunteer thing, as people have jobs and so on to hold down too. I do hope we can keep this game alive though.

Since we're throwing out "thata-boys" now Umiron has really stepped up to be Baby Z in my eyes, well on the path to somehow (SOMEHOW) replacing Zulg...he's been awesome.

Umiron is awesome by the way. As an occasional player and a staffer, I will echo your sentiment. His advertising idea also brought in a lot of new traffic.

>2 - Meh. I don't get paid to CF either. I hate this line of
>thinking because it further drives a wedge between
>players/immortals. Unless you are actively coding, who cares
>that you don't get paid? If you want to delete...delete. I'd
>feel worse if someone was just going through the motions.

I do not like the comparison of getting paid to CF. That being
said Mendos has a point that we are volunteers that run the game
and we put up with a lot of things we shouldn't have to as unpaid
individuals. You on the other hand get to play CF for free
without having to run it. So the idea that you should get paid to
play CF is a silly arguement. Things such as personal attacks
on the forums or in game, players that cheat or break rules, and
RP enforcement. I guarantee* no one on the staff likes doing these
things but that doesn't change that we do them for the betterment
of the game.

Despite the previous things I mentioned, we all have things we
enjoy about CF. Otherwise, why would we do it? Those reasons can
be very diverse between the imms. For me, even being paid to do
what we do wouldn't fix these issues. While to say, "if you want
to delete...delete." might be true. It is also a very rude thing
to say. If you want to actually not drive a wedge between players
and immortals like you say (which are also players mind you), you
should show a lot more restraint before you write something like
that. If you want to have influence and be respected by the
immortal staff, I suggest being courteous, thoughtful, and kind in
your posts. It is either that or spend the time to hero-imm.**
Even if you disagree with a staff member over an issue, that is not
a reason to lose your cool and start acting like we handle
everything wrong.

If a player thinks we actually handled something wrong,
the player affected< can contact us for a civil discussion
about the matter. They alone are responsible for the IC consequences
of the situation and it is up to them to make a shining example of
themselves to make up for it. It may be good to take some time to
cool off. Maybe a couple of days to think about it. This game is
about perspective. Try to take ours into account with your actions.
Even if someone thinks we handled something wrong in character, does
not mean they do not have a chance to come back and show us how
awesome of a character they are. Rolling with the punches is
something I admire in roleplay.


>3 - Players are PEOPLE TOO. Many of us WANT constructive
>criticism (I DO, AT LEAST). I wish more IMMs were secure
>enough to take some of the criticism's that way (my man Twist
>seems to IMHO) instead of getting all huffy and pulling the
>"fine I'll just delete HAPPY?" or "thread locked" card.

There is a point between constructive criticism and being obtuse.
We like feedback that gives us an idea of players perspectives.
However, sometimes that feedback intentionally becomes a flaming
trollfest of accusation and assumption. I encourage players to post
constructive criticism especially following the guidelines above.
To act like your criticism was constructive in any way after a
certain point is simply not true. Please respect not only the
immortal staff but also other players as well.

*Okay, I cannot really guarantee that but I really doubt they enjoy it.
**Being a hero-imm takes quite some time to complete and is entirely dependent on that person. Also, we will eventually canoewhack the grump out of you. Well it hasn't worked for anyone else yet...but, for science!
***This post does not in any way express the thoughts of the immortal staff as a whole. We all have varied views and opinions.

>While to say, "if you want to delete...delete." might be true. It is also a very rude thing to say. If you want to actually not drive a wedge between players and immortals like you say (which are also players mind you), you should show a lot more restraint before you write something like that. If you want to have influence and be respected by the immortal staff, I suggest being courteous, thoughtful, and kind in your posts.<

How is it rude to say "delete if you're not having fun"? CF is "supposed" to be fun. This goes for everyone, from Zulg to Stevers. I'm really wondering if anyone but Mendos actually read my posts or people relied on AOL/ICQ/IMMchannel heresay. Apparently me saying I think the situation was handled poorly is an "attack to make conspiracy theories". Che-rist Allmighty. I flamed zannon (who I respect and admire) waaaaaaay worse than Verathi (http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=124540&mesg_id=124733&page=), Ysal (http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=59775&mesg_id=59817&page=) or Destuvius (http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=59775&mesg_id=59826&page=). Why is no one crying about how wronged zannon was?

I dislike a sycophantic yes-man style of relationship between IMMs and players. Just keep it 100.

>Even if you disagree with a staff member over an issue, that is not a reason to lose your cool and start acting like we handle
everything wrong.<

Never said this...not sure why you would think this. Probably something lost in "telephone"-esque translation.

>There is a point between constructive criticism and being obtuse.
We like feedback that gives us an idea of players perspectives.
However, sometimes that feedback intentionally becomes a flaming
trollfest of accusation and assumption. I encourage players to post constructive criticism especially following the guidelines above. To act like your criticism was constructive in any way after a certain point is simply not true. Please respect not only the immortal staff but also other players as well.<

I posted a constructive solution multiple times. Apparently no one but Dallevian and Mendos read it....that's a shame. I made no assumption save for how the Immortal conversation between Verathi and Destuvius went before they punished Bhelgus.

Did I happen to throw some snarky "zingers" at the end of a few of my posts? Yes, but so did Destuvius (Verathi decided to make his one and only comment based on my Dio's post....which was a cut and paste from the PBF), and I don't see anyone bothered by that (not even me...I can take some churlishness...I'm a big boy). I got accused of an OOC vendetta by Destuvius, so yeah, I was a bit caustic (telling him to GTFO) in response because he is, as B.I.G. put it "dead wrong".

Okay, if you think telling an imm to delete is ever seen as a good thing then I don't know what to tell you.

If you really believe your solutions were constructive, then I have nothing more to say to you. Because they were not.

I would explain why, but you don't give a #### about my opinions, and that's fine.

In response to your response of number two...
For an IMM to get an area created and through review, they have probably invested 1-2 years of their life into the entire process. You telling them to just delete and waste that effort is very insulting. I understand that it isn't your fault the process is that hard, but it is what it is and we have gone through it to try to make the mud better.

Also, just because I am not responding does not mean I am not reading. I read most everything on this forum and quite a lot of the other.

I will provide a short feedback here, but I would ask that you don't let this derail into an argument and another locked thread. This isn't me providing the start to an argument, just feedback to the few points I saw.

Point: I should have given a player imm exp for losing leader
-I don't ever plan to give positive imm exp for losing leader. You don't punish with negative and positive actions. That being said, I was watching the character very closely and he likely would have gotten a bit of loving and encouragement as he progressed, had he progressed far. I LIKED this character.

Point: I should have given the player some sort of encouragement when losing leader
-Unless you somehow have seen the log or were there in character, you have no idea how this entire talk went. I tried to be encouraging to the character despite ungranting them and punishing them. It is possible this didn't come through clearly, and if so that would fall on me.

There is a disconnect between what I said/meant and what some people read.

-->Another thing that I would like to mention is you seem to be super convinced that the *only* person who was impacted during this whole thing was the player of Bhelgus. Yet you have managed to create a tinfoil hat conspiracy against me and against other members of the staff. There is a very distinct ripple effect here and you have never once acknowledged that there is the potential for a negative for the people on the other side of the coin. <

*warning incoming snark* Did you delete?--

I said this because Bhelgus deleted. It was the main tangible "consequence" of what happened.

This led to this...

--2) Imms are unpaid volunteers**:

In the same way that players play this game to enjoy it, the Immortals RUN the game for enjoyment. If that enjoyment ceases to exist, they tend to burn out. This is really critical. Some very good Immortals have been lost by an excessively negative public opinion. They burn out. If any of you guys/girls are stuck in a soul-sucking job, something you hate, you are probably doing it for pay. Imagine your boss removed that payment and still expected you to come to work? Yup. That's being a CF Imm without having fun in the process.--

My response...

--2 - Meh. I don't get paid to CF either. I hate this line of thinking because it further drives a wedge between players/immortals. Unless you are actively coding, who cares that you don't get paid? If you want to delete...delete. I'd feel worse if someone was just going through the motions.--

Key phrase "I'd feel worse if someone is going through the motions", in that I'd imagine if your heart isn't into a character (especially an IMM char, who, as ALL of you have said, has added responsibilities) you can have a negative affect on a large # of people. What I am trying to say (apparently I did not do this well) is....IF YOU ARE NOT HAVING FUN WITH A CHARACTER (IMM OR OTHERWISE) DELETE AND PLAY A NEW CHARACTER AND HAVE FUN...GAMES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FUN. That's relatively sensible advice, the same advice other IMMs have given to players.

Sadly, this led to this...

--While to say, "if you want to delete...delete." might be true. It is also a very rude thing to say. If you want to actually not drive a wedge between players and immortals like you say (which are also players mind you), you should show a lot more restraint before you write something like that.--

My response...

--How is it rude to say "delete if you're not having fun"? CF is "supposed" to be fun. This goes for everyone, from Zulg to Stevers.--

Hopefully this clears one miscommunication up.

The short answer is I didn't go through the process of becoming an imm to "have fun". I went through the process to just in general try to help out and give another avenue for a religion. Sometimes it is fun, sometimes people try my patience, but in general it is more of a passion than an enjoyment. I think this is why you see people come and go, as I find my passions wax and wan in cycles.

Anywhoo...appreciate you clarifying.