So as a quality of life change for the enemies of Empire (mostly team Battle) there will soon be a 2nd way into and out of the Imperial Lands. It is hidden (ish) but I suspect the info will spread like wildfire as soon as the first person finds it, so I'm not terribly worried about that.

But wait, there's more! As a trade off for the 2nd way in and out of the lands there has been another minor change made. Centurions can now be called a little bit closer to the palace than they could have in the past!

Instead of weakening centurions you just gave people a way to circumvent them entirely. I think a better solution would have been to allow more people (who normally would have rp objections) to be able to pay the toll and allow them to pay it even if they recently struck the vanquisher.

As it stands now I can only think of a few instances where I'd still use centurions and none of them are within the Imperial Lands.

Sorry you feel that way. The change was not made as a slight to you personally but as an overall quality of life improvement for the mud as a whole.

It's amazing - it actually makes it possible to fight Empire when outnumbered.

I personally don't care. Hell, if anything I appreciate not having to gather gold exclusively for setting 10 sets of cents every log in.

But with that being said it's just a critique of the new situation. Instead of weakening cents they feel (more or less) worthless in the one place they should be the most formidable.

But maybe that's what's best for business at this point since Empire is strong as hell. But that wasn't always the case. It wasn't that long ago that people were whining about Fort and begging on dios for Empire players.

Seriously maaaaaaaaaaaaane?

Since cents are now exclusively for summon traps you won't get ordered to place them and then have to spend an hour trying to regather the 15 gold for your donations while avoiding being PK'd

As one not as vulnerable to cents as others (commune word) I still died a whole lot there after curse. It was mildly frustrating to say the least.

Get rid of Outlander Lane outside the Fortress and get rid of the mini-maze of death outside the Refuge. Maybe people will start retrieving.

state that attacker should outnumber the defender 3 to 1 in order to have some certainty on achieving his goals. So creating bonuses for the defenders other than tough inner guard is only natural.

Hence the Spire assault law, outlander forest and centurions.


What would be nice though is adding some terrains besides forest to the prosimy, couple of fields and hills would make it perfect and allow for some hidden characters camping the tree similar to rangers camping the redhorn as well, not saying that foresters get some chances for the terrain mix-up out there.

I don't think a change that makes it easier for hidden chars to cherry pick weakened parties in cabal raids is a good idea, where that char isn't a member of the raiding or defending cabal.

We need less of that, not more.

It punishes risk taking and pushes people towards failing to act unless they have a bit gang.

I will leave that stuff to the discretion of the people in charge of the other cabals for the moment.

If we begin to see a trend where other cabals are more problematic for reasons other than players not wanting to risk their precious lewts, then I think we could be easier convinced that a change should be made.

Particularly when you combine it with spike growth, windwalk, logs, randomish mazes, not even knowing who you are up against, the hunt, etc.

That is *infinitely* worse than the former Empire setup (which could be converted entirely to forest anyway).

However I am happy about this change to the Imperial lands for those hapless battleragers.

For insects + entangle you need to have a ranger leader or ranger + leader in a group, which is quite rare.

On the other hand most time what I encounter with outlander retrieval is ppl just being cautious to go and retrieve against no defenders. Fear of the unknown it is.

Am I wrong in thinking insects + entangle in a forested area that has one exit about 40 squares away against enemies who have windwalk is deadly?

On the other hand, you are wrong if you believe rangers are the only class with entangle. I get that you are new to the game but please check your facts before throwing random and factually incorrect statements around.

gr

I do rarely think though, my bad

I think entangle has killed me 30 times in the last 10 years. Insects certainly hurts but you know what's coming and there are many ways, from preps to controlling the motion of the battle that you can use to deal with it vs a solo opponent. Now if you are going one vs many that is a different story but taking on multiple people is just about always an uphill battle for many reasons

The changes to Imperial Lands is a good thing. A similar change to Prosimy to allow people retrieving a chance to escape with their lives would also be a good thing. Why do you think Outlander sit camo at their cabal for literally hours on end in hope that poor John the cityguard comes knocking to get his Scales of Justice back?

Prosimy is a horrible area when you combine it with any of the following windwalk, logs, entangle, insects, hunt, parting block, etc.

Anyone arguing against changing prosimy is blatantly biased if they are for changing Imperial Lands.

Are you for or against changing prosimy to encourage more raiding action?

Prosimy woods maze area is likely smaller in actual room number than the road from KoR to the imperial city and you can get from the huntress through the actual maze part in 3 moves. If a person looks around a little they can learn this easy.

I was basing my statements on assumptions because I have never actually entered the area myself.

NT

maybe then you'll stop spouting foolish things.

Also, play an outlander cause it's obvious that you have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about.

Try to look at things objectively. I get that you love yourself a bit of insects as it allows you to kill people you would never otherwise be able to. Truly I get that.

You still have a long road to go through the prosimy forest and road. With trep/entangle - this indeed would make you run out of moves quite quickly.

However, you don't have to go Arkham or sea, there's always manor or village (which are not wilderness, hence no rangers) as nice options. And it's mostly indoor, which makes it all the worse for druids.

Outlander druids are very strong even indoors and out of the wilds.

Why outlanders? Well, because they don't suffer from the low hp in the way that other druids do.

Druid is a fun class to play as it is very very strong but also has a lot of subtle tools. I think you'd probably enjoy it since you are willing to learn from trying things out.

Prosimy has 2 areas that connect to it, the imperial lands before this change only had 1. Prosimy certainly can be very scary and deadly, but in most situations that requires one of the 3 people who have insects to be on and in your pk. Centurions at the bottleneck could be used to kill you out of range.

One of the biggest reasons the change occurred in the Imperial Lands and not in Prosimy is that Outlander does not take Battles item. Empire on the other hand does take Battles item, often. And cents in a single path in/out of the area is a death sentence 99% of the time for a rager without powers. You can march a Trib or an Imperial to the Tree with people in range, having no powers and have WAY better odds of survival than that.

There are many occasions when retrieving from Outlander is a death sentence 99% of the time. Like I say I think the changes to Imperial Lands are GOOD but the same should be applied to Outlander. I don't know why everyone dances around the elephant in the room in that certain Outlander power combinations like we are seeing crop up more frequently should be toned down. There are three absolute power gamers in Outlander and if you truly wanted a level playing field you would act on it.

NT

...may be looked at as well. Nothing is ruling it out.

90% of my horrible rager memories are being trapped at Cents with no head.

Seriously, Jerry got 7 of his 16 kills on Ghrim in those situations. And thus was allowed to further his self-delusions.

Most serial rager players are delusional, not just Jerry (...but especially Jerry).

They get dam redux on a stick, deathblow cheapening most fights, spellbane to screw mages who have to run all over the place gathering wands to get comparable dam redux with 1/2 the hp. I could go on and on.

I don't think the occasional centurion blockade was unfairly screwing Rager. If anything it was occasionally sweet karma.

For all I care, anything that makes a rager's life harder is a good thing. It's so cool that they are almost nonexistent today. Why not just nuke them as you nuked Scion?

Centurions create situations that are no-win for ragers...unless they log out or hide for 2-3 hrs and wait for Empire to log off.

That's not good for the game, regardless of how you feel.

At least with other classes/cabals, retrieving against cents was just 75% a death sentence. With ragers, it was 100%.

Centurions create situations that are no-win for ragers...unless they log out or hide for 2-3 hrs and wait for Empire to log off.

That's not good for the game, regardless of how you feel.

At least with other classes/cabals, retrieving against cents was just 75% a death sentence. With ragers, it was 100%.

Ironically, not against mages but against classes who don't have ABS.

That doesn't mean much when the second area doesn't lead to safety. Sure you can (try to) hide in the mansion but with 10 ticks of insects (screwing regen as well as recall) you're pretty well screwed unless the Outlander is completely ignorant of the mansion's layout.

I've played multiple outlander leaders, *nobody* I consider *great* at this game died to insects alone, because they were prepared for it, meaning they had multiple orbs of travel available at all times and they never over-extended.

It was *hard* work taking any one of these people down, requiring luck and planning and out of the box thinking. So yeah, I don't get why people complain about a power that most of the time only 3 characters in the entire game get and can be nullified by a prep that's available to anyone with a bit of time investment.

I walked into a lilyth trap with abs and died thanks to insects. She wasn't expecting me and I wasn't expecting her, so it wasn't like it didn't act as a game changer. Basically I crossed paths with her and insects meant I had no way out. I have also as an outtie seen numerous people die retrieving because of it.

If you are talking about orb of travel, not everyone can get it. Or if they can, not many know how

that you have issues with insects. You don't even *have* to be an elite
player in order *not* to have problems with insects, you just need to factor
it into your decision making. All elite players (and some others) do this.

Same goes for Murphy who is a giant pssy in game and preps like no tomorrow
where he doesn't have to, but can't be bothered (or doesn't want) to grab some orbs so that he can keep ranting about insects ...

I've been playing since the late 90's. I've had leaders in every cabal but shadow, entropy, and scion. Been tattooed around 10 times (I originally said over a dozen, but with a quick search of my aging, decrepit, brain, I can only remember about 10 or so...), won 4-5 role contests, and broken 75 pk wins with less than 15 pk losses twice before I got bored with that kind of play back then...and now there just aren't enough targets as killing the same 6 people enough times to get 75 pk wins just doesn't seem fun enough for me attempt.....heh, I was even the last player to heartburst before the change to distention....because I was trying to get into Maran...and noone would talk to my character without "proving myself"... and over a couple days, people just died to me, I wasn't keeping track of pk wins, cause I honestly didn't care....that char had one of the best roles I've ever written...heh...still slightly buttsore about how I lost him.

And, I've never learned how to get the orb of travel. You see, I've never wanted to play a character who had a role the made it ok to beg for info like that. Sure, I've had characters show my characters cool things, and I've learned others by stalking foes. (My favorite, was the baking bread quest in old khazad dum, and the sa'angreal...both of which I learned by stalking pray as an assassin and watching them do it). I even figured out how to get shawtabbies completely solo with a necro once...though I don't remember how anymore.... I've even explored the first two levels of hell solo ( the only two times I've ever been)...with a ranger.....

I find your complete dismissal of anyone and everyone who doesn't know how to get one specific item in game...and your insistence that the imms balance the game and cabalwars based on that one item.......just sad. I actually, physically, feel sorry for you.

I found out how to get orb of travel with my first ever character in the game.
There is something seriously wrong with how you play the game, if you've done
what you described and you still don't know how.

Nevertheless, the orb of travel doesn't *balance* insects, it COMPLETELY NULLIFIES IT.
Insects is balanced as is, but of course you'd never know that cause you're clueless.

Keep on writing more paragraphs on everything you have achieved playing this game.

Really....really...sad. I am sorry for you.

In a game as open sandbox, the best game I've ever heard of for having dozens of ways to be fun for all types of players......

That someone can say "there is something wrong with how you play" just because I don't know where one item is....

It's a game. The way I play is fun for me, guess what, that means I win, because it's a game, and "are you having fun?"(within the rules), is the ONLY valid measure of 'doing it right'. You obviously are incapable of that level of enjoyment....or at least incapable of conceiving that others can play different than you and probably have more fun than you are having. My long list of accomplishments was to illustrate that yes, I've succeeded in many ways in CF, and I don't know how to get that one item, though I've been aware of it since the beginning. Your snarky, unconscious dismissal of the worth of anyone who doesn't play like you is sad to me, because I know you'll never really 'get' what makes Cf great....reading what you post, is like reading the posts of those 13 year old FPS gamers who call others newbs because they don't play, and dont WANT to play 40 hours a week. Your assumption that your measure of what you would call elite or top tier is the only valid playstyle is just as immature. And your declaration that skills should only be measured for game balance against how the 313373 play...completely is the exact type of snobbery that drives away the casual player.

You have to be able to see the orb to hold it. For some characters, that's not an option even if they can see it. Eg an ap with iron grip on 2h weapon, someone who has those items webbed and is being tripped, someone who is permalagged (since otherwise an ally could send you home). Orbs can be stolen.

Not to mention that the damage from insects is itself quite significant and you can't grab any sleep near the ticks. So that means having healing on hand. That means not being too dex maladicted or having little else in your inventory.

Btw my current I'd probably something like 130 - 3 in pk (at a guess) despite having no enemies on 50 percent of the time. I have no issues with sequester because you can usually just run around until it wears off. With insects the terrain and entangle/spike growth typically remove that option.

And what does "being a giant ####" have to do with it? I play the way I want.

And I retrieved against insects, with no orbs of travel, so long as I knew what I was facing. Thing is, it's not fun. Taking fights where for you loss means death but your enemy can get away easily is NOT FUN.

Also, usually I don't even know what I am going to face.

That not everyone can get into the inn to gamble?

People that have "attacked" too much there, people that are wanted. People that offended a herald linked god etc.

How do they get orbs of travel?

Incidentally you may not consider me elite but there's pretty much no one that I don't have a positive pk record against. Marcus might be the only person I can think of. Possibly twist.

There's maybe three people out there who have both the access and the gold to routinely get orbs. As long as you're one of these three people, the problem doesn't exist.

Thats cute but makes you sound stupid. There are 3 PCs who can have insects at any given time, barring some super freak occurrence like a RC win or something to that effect. Every single PC who is not Outlander is capable of getting orbs of travel. Every single one.

If a player chooses to ignore something that is available to them, it does not mean something else is broken or imbalanced or impossible to work against. You don't hear people cry about trip being OP because they have access to flight (if they care to get it). And if you ask me, trip is way scarier than insects if you do not prepare for it.

Agree to disagree, then.

I am sorry but I am going to argue with this! And I wont talk around a number of items BUT ...

"Every single PC who is not Outlander is capable of getting orbs of travel. Every single one."
- Why did we change centurions again if the solution was as simple as getting an Orb of travel??? Battle Ragers also have a #### ton of gold they cant use for anything else seems perfect

Because Orbs of travel should not even be considered in this argument they are a rare item and with some of the gold reductions I imagine even rarer. In the last 6 months I have seen 1 orb of travel.

The biggest thing that has always got me ... is at some point when fighting a centurion for instance someone needs to go ... Hmmm hang on I am about to die if I die I donate all my gold and potentially all my equipment to empire maybe I should trade this 10k gold item instead. There has always been an out with centurions when cursed if you are not cursed for a lot of people it can be even easier.

But even then with centurions we are talking about something that can be used in one spot with a massive cool down. Insects can be used basically everywhere with a moderate cooldown.

"So as a quality of life change for the enemies of Empire (mostly team Battle) there will soon be a 2nd way into and out of the Imperial Lands."

The mostly for team Battle thing is the key point that seems to have gotten in all this in regards to the cents change.

Edit:

The orb of travel comment was in response to insects, not centurions.

nt

Yes I understand the main reason for the change, but I was just applying Orb of Travel logic to Centurions. (Comically I realize battle probably cannot use it) In the way it has been applied to insects as a "fix all".

You have missed the point. So I will make it plain ... The Orb of travel is not a viable argument that insects in a maze is OK. Nor for that matter the hunt.

We can agree to disagree I suppose. You feel like insects is a huge deal and makes it a giant problem to retrieve vs outlander. I do not. There is an option to mitigate insects if you are facing a defender who can insect you. There is not an option for team Battle (the people who suffered the worst from centurions) to escape a cent death trap if there is a defender there who can attack you.

Please don't get me wrong I am not arguing against the change to centurions I genuinely think its a good thing for the game. But I am arguing against the "Option to mitigate insects" and I honestly believe the Orb of travel needs to be disregarded for this. The Orb on its own is very hard to get you can waste 100's of gold trying to do it ... In saying this I am discounting the use of highly limited/unique items that may not necessarily be an option for everyone.

Insects on its own is not so bad, insects in a maze is.

But I also bundle the hunt into the same bucket, the hunt is perhaps even worse because it does a lot more damage that insects and can be called from anywhere in the area.

Was I actually correct in my first statement as well that you can pay to get past centurions even tho in a fight??? If so (Once again not arguing against the change) there are now a number of ways to circumvent centurions, but only one very niche method to get around insects.

Im 99.9% positive this isnt an option in combat, and also that you cannot pay them if you were recently fighting an Imperial. I do not want to say 100% because I can't peek into the code to know for sure, but I am confident enough to say its not an option.

And if it is an option, then its something that the vast majority of the mud wasn't aware of because cent death traps have been going on for a really really long time and work against all levels of player skill.

One cannot pay centurions if they are in combat with an Imperial or if they have fought in Imperial within a (relatively short) given period of time.

Sorry for my comment in that regard then. This I will have to freely admit is a limit of exposure problem for a number of years.

It still stands with old Cents before the change in a lot of situations there was a way out you could even just flee (Admitedly at a reduced rate, but it would send you back the way you came to a clear path out), word, vanish, forest haven in some cases, nocturne of fright, etc. Hell you could even use the argued Orb of Travel. But this is really where my biggest gripe is.

A single item that is not overly "Easy" to get and that one could argue could be applied to centurions as well.

Insects in a maze is broken. The hunt in a maze is broken (I know there are time restrictions). Insects ever since the inception of Sylvan has been broken I know this is going back a long long long time but there was a reason back then why some many sylvan played air majors because once you had someone insected in an open area they were more than often dead. The current situation of a maze given all the other terrain advantages is probably even worse.

Do Outlander have invokers at the moment? Because lets add vortex and potentially in limited fashion grease to the mix of issues in a maze.

And the whole topic of this discussion is to improve raiding, and at the moment as a lone retriever if you have to face the hunt or insects I wont say there is no point trying ... But there is definitely an element of weighing up holding back.

Also in the three years or so I played I had exactly one orb of travel ever, given to me by another player back before gold farming and gambling were both nerfed.

The inner guardian also does it. Almost a guarantee if you take any considerable time in killing it (along with numerous other druid supps).

I had a sunwarden two years ago. Insects killed everyone. Out of my 120+ pk wins I'd wager over half happened after insects and in the Prosimy.

As for orb of travel how many characters at a time do you think have one? In the 700 hours I was Sunwarden I saw one person use it and they still died to an outlander air shifter in Galadon.

If you played that felar explorer ranger who had pursuit + baer tattoo, you really
have nothing here to stand on. Togni proved that the combo was broken long before you did anything with it.

But even with that combo (which is the worst possible combo with that power), you never killed Zhenyen, Vhateel, Ankhran (some chars from memory who were using orbs at that time) even though you *could* have, because you could in turn RELIABLY NULLIFY their use of orb. This was one of the reasons that this combo was so deadly (and broken), not insects by itself.

I've never seen anyone who knows the game really well not being able to deal with *just* insects. I'm not talking god mode players here (Togni and co) but even players like quas and shamanman who are very aggressive and take lots of risks seem to back me up.

Just the fact that there exists an item that *anyone* can get, with a bit of effort,
that completely nullifies the power should be enough to end any 'OMG insects is OP' discussion but alas it never happens. Do ppl die to it? Of course. They're newbies or they're lazy or they don't give a ####. The way you figure out if something is 'balanced', you test it vs people who *DO* give a #### and try their best to beat it.
The best of the best. These, as far as I know, have no real problems with the power.

Every time I play a mage, which isn't often, I have 0 problems with deathblow.
Yet there is thread after thread about how it's BS. People are lazy, they don't want to put in the work. Thank the heavens that this game hasn't completely lost the plot regarding that.

How do I nullify sigil of pain, healing curse, piercing gaze, despoil, nightwalker, portal and so on?

Explain how wanted people get orbs of travel.

Then explain why tonghi is worthy of comment.

The more I read of your posts the more I think you play in some kind of silo.

If any of those other powers are used, you can disengage.

If you can't see the difference btwn damage boost and transport removal I give up.

Damage in isolation is only a kill sealer on those who are newbs or happy to be kill sealed.

Villagers live their whole lives without using teleportation abilities and they do it also without being able to use healers, flight potions, or refresh/heal preps.

I find that with access to those things if I can land a flee (and they don't have a summoner) I can extricate myself on foot from 99% of the situations I would use a potion.

I can basically neutralize the teleportation stopping portion of insects for the same amount of coin I would spend on a couple of return/teleport potions. And even then I only need to care about that if I can't just steam roll the person using it against me, not all leaders of outlander are that PK savy or built to take on all kinds of enemies.

That being said most people haven't invested the hours of developing their running skills and are legitimately dependant on escape magic.

I think it would be nifty to have some sort of spell/power that doesn't stop a word/teleport but maybe triggers on landing. Perhaps generate a lost soul/pycich vampire any time they use dimensional magic, or maybe a chance to teleport/word to the person who cursed them instead of the intended functionality.

Is having been hit with crippling strike by a dude that is ready for you.

You can't usually outrun an outlander on a known route and that's before you allow for snares or briars, deadfall etc.

I'm very much used to using mobility in other circumstances but in there it doesn't cut it.

You can do a lot of things in the mansion to create space and potential confusion to help yourself either recoup some or escape while someone is chasing you. There are enough rooms and things you can between the Mansion and the various rooms in Prosimy that you have lots of options available to you other than just sitting and dying like cents ended up doing for a lot of people.

>requires one of the 3 people who have insects to be on and in your pk

Just because sometimes they aren't on doesn't mean the problem doesn't need to be addressed. Also, you can't even KNOW whether they're on or not.

The spirit also does insects.

The discussions is about retrievals not raids, so this isn't relevant in this particular discussion

Having been summoned to inners when retrieving before. You can't always guarantee that you can engage the outer

It require a lot of things stacked heavily in favor of Team Outtie or an utter lack of know how on the part of the person trying to raid if you manage to get summoned to the inner before you can attack the outer.

Or just being blind and fleeing up when being attacked all over the place.

Or more likely, a missed bash followed by a flee.

And on top of all those things, it requires you to be out of combat and have a summoner in your pk and you to fail your save vs the summon before you get attacked again or move, and it also requires that you end up sitting there few a little bit for the inner to attack you (which it doesnt do immediately upon arrival from summon) as well as the spirit hitting you with insects in the first round or two of combat before you can flee or realize what exactly happened.

Out of all the variables presented in this argument for why insects from the spirit matter in retrieval, I think the fact that you are talking about having multiple guys defending against you would be a slightly bigger concern.

Except for maybe stun?

Blackjack just ends combat, no?

nt

I haven't seen a thief with blackjack in Outlander in a really long time, if ever. But again, if you are fighting a warrior who can KO you through skills AND a shaman to summon you to the inner after you get KOed, you are still going to have a lot of problems with that pair alone than the summon to the inner for insects because a warrior + a shaman is one of the scariest pairs to try and fight against as a lone person.

Especially as you often have no way of knowing who is there.

Multiple guys is not such a huge issue unless you can't escape even when free of combat.

I guess, however, that if you can win orbs of travel without going into the inn then only some people are gimped, assuming they can see to get the orb. However, if you can't win them elsewhere then your argument about orbs of travel becomes extremely weak.

The only argument you are making for outlander being so scary is that there are 3 possible people who can insect you. Its actually the entire argument. If they are not there then you have no issues.

Are you suggesting I don't come to fight when any outlander leader is on and I don't have an orb of travel? It's not fun.

More fights would happen (and ironically more people would die) if the insects weren't there.

Don't forget you can find yourself at the inner even when retrieving.

Is that since the problem doesn't always manifest, therefore it doesn't exist.

By your logic, if the outer instakilled retrievers 20% of the time, it would be fine too. Because hey, it's only 20% of the time!

What I am saying is that you are making one skill (insects) a way bigger issue than it really is. In this entire thread there are only 2 people who seem to be firmly rooted in the idea that insect swarm is a guaranteed death sentence. When we have 2 out of the dozen or so people who are claiming that insects is fine, I am slightly more inclined to believe that insects really is fine and that our 2 outliers either overvalue the impact of insects or have yet learned how to properly mitigate some of the headaches that come with it.

I never claimed that insects are a guaranteed death sentence. But they are a death sentence if the odds are already stacked against you.

Tell me again that insects weren't a factor in this log:
http://forums.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?3,1039586,1039586

You posted a log of a guy dying trying to counter raid vs Fort for your example of why insects is scary, thats awesome to me. Now, for the log itself. There are a lot of things that could have been done very differently by the assassin where insects would have been rendered inconvenient but far from the death sentence. Also, this a log from your own character so I will direct you to your own comment:

*** Snip running and trying to shake her off. In all honesty there were so many places to duck to and I ran here...


So *you* made a poor choice by running to Galadon instead of the other places you could duck. That doesn't sound like a problem with insects as much as it does with your judgment in that particular log.

I learned to survive insects somewhat after that char. I still think they are too harsh, too annoying and too demanding.

However this isn't about toning it down or removing it. Being insected when trying to "retrieve from Outlander" is a death sentence. You either beat up whoever is there (likely not knowing who is there to begin with) and they flee/teleport/camo etc, or you die. Pretty simple.

It is the AREA that is the killer. JUST LIKE IMPERIAL LANDS. There is ONE exit. Please do not try and dilute this by arguing the Mansion or pretend that orbs of travel just grow on trees, that is grasping at straws.

You get insected at Outlander, if you can't win the fight, you die. Just like a rager blocked behind centurions. If they couldn't win, they die.

All I am suggesting is that a change to the Outlander cabal/outlying area would be as GOOD for the game as the change to Imperial Lands.

It is my opinion that Outlander is not a death sentence to counter raid, and for that very reason I personally have little interest in updating the area near that cabal. If another imm feels like it is necessary, then they certainly can take care of it on their own.

My previous point was that entangle plus insects in general is not something I lose sleep over. Entangle can be managed, insects are rare, if you are getting caught off guard by it a lot then do something else to not be caught off guard.

As far as retrieving against outlander specifically. Most of my experience was as an outlander, and as someone who almost never camped the tree I also almost never made it back in time to stop a retrieval and frequently couldn't even reach the cabal before raiders already had taken the fetish. So that is something to think about.

Every single cabal tends to camp their own cabal while holding items, or just hanging out in general. Outlanders just happen to have camo on top of that part of normal player behavior.


Only 2 cabals are normally at war with outlander. Tribunal really could ditch even having a cabal item, it doesn't affect your day to day all that much so there isn't much pressure to retrieve. Empire tends to also have a really appealing class distribution and high numbers so I think they are in a good position to retrieve as well.

Solo retrieving vs numbers is just always going to be an uphill battle. I would like to see a change to insects such that if even 2 people are hitting the victim it drops the timer to only 1-2 ticks (really strong fighting solo, really strong but for very short fighting many)


I think prosimy is a very interesting place for a cabal, I think it is kind of far from the action but if outlander wasn't there then the continent would be pretty dead beat. We can't have every cabal on east road.

Not to mention shaman with energy drain?

If used correctly it can really screw up a druid's day.

Since you can't sit there forever.

and is largely underused by invaders.

falls for it.

You can't just stand in that spot and expect an experienced player to screw themselves over.

that even experienced people don't really understand the room they're in. Although the chance for that falls drastically with experience, that's true.

I have a little bit of experience and I've had this room nearly kill/nearlykill me multiple times from being summoned, driven, blind and fighting, or even forgetting in the heat of a chase.

Its also extremely problematic for finishing tactics when they retreat here (especially healer or group raiders)

The fact you've brought groups and people with healers into it says it all.

And getting people to the place doesn't work if you are either:
So hurt they can just kill you with melee
Unable to summon because their saves are great
Fighting a group yourself, that you may not have known was there
Most chars cannot dictate the direction in which an opponent is moved with even 50 percent chance of success.

Just because an imperial group with black circle might balance it out doesn't make it balanced. It's like saying cents wasn't a problem if you had a big group.

nt

NT

NT

This will improve the average life of any CFer. A tip of the hat to all those involved with this one. Thank you all.

something i asked for long ago was a way OUT of the lands that involved some sort of cave that plopped (fell?) you in or around the underdark sea

glad to see this as an option too. i think another and maybe benefit might be making the path at the beginning of the lands more than 1 room, or not allow centurions to be called in the very first room, to allow for scouting a bit.

cheerio.

You can use the second entrance to scout. Another advantage for this change is that people should be less likely to just drop cents at the first possible room because people aren't forced to use that path anymore.

What I am hoping to see from this change is cents being used slightly more tactically instead of just mindlessly dropped in the same two rooms every single time

thanks for the improvement. now take away chameleon from outlander or at least make the lag front-loaded...

Also, removing deathblow from battle, brand of phoenix from marans and special guards from tribs would be nice. They're just too frustrating to encounter

They were being used tactically. Those were the best two room to drop them in usually, although there were two others that made sense as well depending on who was on.

NT