I can't help but feel the recent change to defensive regeneration forms over did it. It used to be significant damage reduction now it is only have damage reduction. I can barely stand in front vs the skeletons of Mount Calandaryl or Storm giants in Kiadana Rah with two warriors dealing really nice damage. How does go about providing logs or showing things to see if others feel the changes maybe need a slight tweak?

I've always pretty much habitually played shapeshifters, I bounce off an on to other classes, but always go back to a shifter and this an opinion I'm sure not everybody is behind.

The problem with the changes to the regen. forms is just the fact that they cannot perform in the manner a defense form should. I completely agree that when facing a single slaver/skeleton/or storm giant with a good damage source or two backing you, while still having to get nervous your going to take a dirt nap feels a bit *BLEH*.

The biggest problem in my eyes is having a hemmorage or impale completely make your form about worthless. You go from having a great form before the changes to basically having a healing factor when you run away after. On top of that now you cannot even run away to heal because the bleeding makes it virtually useless. It's sort of like not getting a new creature, but getting the Whispers legacy in critter form.

Maybe perhaps instead of beating the damage redux tree again, its lost enough acorns, you could think maybe about tweeking it so that these forms in question have their thick hides come into affect a bit more often or perhaps something of that nature. Yes I know there's an edge for that, I've taken it numerous times, and the affect is not all too noticeable and is very costly EP wise.

Take for instance the Crocodile and a form like the Rhino or TD Spider. When your tier1 offense or utility forms are out performing your tier1 defense form, it just becomes aggravating, most people deal with it for a while then they snap out and delete or just let the character dust its self.

Just saying perhaps somewhere there is some middle ground we can all meet on that will satisfy the players need and not aggravate Umiron into complete madness involving canoe whacking everybody for Christmas

It's damage reduction is just meh and takes very little to break through. Rager can smashed it down in moments. Even with ABS the reductions seemed just ok and if maledicted I still got beat down easily. The regen was OK but the moment any malediction happens, it's horrible. I couldn't tank normal things that my neutral conjurers could tank with a luminous archon let alone stronger things. In fact, my Fox, which is utility and not primarily defensive, tanked better than my defensive major in many cases! I ended up deleting my last character because I couldn't actually even explore and certain problems being in Herald. This was my last character I played so it was a recent experience with the same feeling.

Can't stand in front of most hero range mobs with the change to dam redux and regen.

EDIT: It's frustrating enough that I actually searched the forums for more information about it. Can this please be looked at to balance a bit better? It's no use having a defensive form that can't actually defend - even if you took away it's bite to the point where it was more like a 'dillo that used regen, it'd be better than what it is now.

You should have searched the forums BEFORE deciding to take it. Had you stumbled upon this thread or one of the others you may have changed your mind about keeping it.

Croc/Komodo were the goto forms for the defensive focus. Instead of boosting the remaining forms the decision was made to nerf these to oblivion to try and level out the T1 forms.

Defensive regen forms really are just woeful.

Is if I'm going to explore solo. If I'm looking for PK viability, komodo was good, but porcupine was better, dillo was much more survivable, pachy is still my golden goose. snake was hit or miss to the point where it'd depend on my other form.

I've thought for a long time that I'd love a lemur/mongoose if they actually had a bit of legit dam redux.

I'll note that I haven't experienced the changes to maledicts affecting regen, but if that's the case, that alone is enough change to take defensive regen out of the picture aside from the dodgy snake - since maledict is essentially the first thing people do to a non-dodgy defense form. That's a one trick pony for defeating a regen shifter - which if that's the intent then fine, but that seems like a pretty big nerf in and of itself.

Also...plz bring back muh boa. Ah miss et.

...komodo and croc DID used to be too good.

I had komodo in 2013? I think, and it was stupid good. Like, I could kill mobs my cheetah needed ABS to kill with just scales up. Would take longer, but yeah, was stupid strong.

I would imagine Croc was the same. They both had comparable dam redux to porc/pachy yet also had the same regen as Diamondback/Cobra. They basically meant that everyone who went defense and DIDN'T get one of the two forms usually deleted and bitched about how weak mongoose/lemur/pachy/diamondback/porc was.

I'm not going to assert that Komodo is perfectly dialed in or that it isn't. What I do feel confident asserting is that I'm more comfortable with it now than I was in July before it was changed.

I'll see if I can get my hands on some swap data and see what's happening there, but otherwise I'm fine with the new status quo.

May I ask what swap data is that you are referring to?

A few years ago Zulg implemented some long-term logging to track whenever a shapeshifter uses one of the swap edges.

I'll have to see if I can get my hands on that data, though I'm pretty sure it's not going to show a mass exodus of shapeshifters walking away from komodo.

Particularly not long after the nerf. Someone would have had to play two defence shifters post-nerf and got the komodo both times. The first time to see how terrible it is and the second to swap it out due to how terrible it is.

Just doesn't play the same way anymore.

Look at vis-a-vis other major regen forms. Before, Komodo and Croc were better in nearly every situation as opposed to sand liz/cobra/diamondback. Now, it's roughly equal. Komodo can still work, but it used to be gross (and I'm not even going to mention about when it had Lion rake for 2-3 weeks) and would make defense majors re-roll nearly every form but komodo/croc. I had people tell me that porcupine sucked! Seriously!

Regen does not seemed nerfed at all, just dam redux. So, that being said, hit-and-run tactics make more sense. And if you're fighting some crazy badass you can't flee from, make sure you ABS (still regen through ABS...just not as much).

And I'm not even mentioning the utility stuff. Croc is amphibious (only defense major that is) which is great for exploring. Croc has a pimp lagging/offense move in water. Komodo can sprint (as you mentioned), has carrionfeed to change damage type, and resists poison. Those are all really useful abilities.

I still think Cheetah is too good. And I've played 2, and hope to play more. So I'm not biased re: wanting certain forms to stay buff. I like that offensive forms are basically a crapshoot, and people keep most if not all of their original forms in that foci, but that's because of constant tweaks and rebalancing.

You get a hamstring or something you you regen horribly. Then again, maybe it was needed since they were pretty strong before, though it was all they could do since the defense form couldn't kill really. From what I hear, the best regen form now is the utility one because it dodges. Dodging forms are much more defensive than damage reduction ones now that the regen/damage reduction? is nerfed.

Personally I feel super weak and my Tier 2 form out performs my Tier 1 form. my Tier 3 form with the same level of damage reduction takes less damage per hit. That to me just makes the Komodo and likely other regen forms that don't have dodge feel nerfed.

gr

Honestly I got this form at 42 and my arm shot up in the air I even boosted to my wife....which she gave me the look... I then went to rank with a ranger and the ghasts wrecked me and the ranger ended up tanking.

To me, it seems like you either 'hit the shifter lottery' or keep trying. Out of every focus I can name forms that are considered 'winners' and those that are 'losers'. And the thing is, I feel that most would agree with me

Okay I was afraid of that possibly being the case, too bad I got all excited to see Komodo Dragon and can't roll the bones after using it. Seen the stats on the QHCF forum and it was actually the form I wanted the most.

Minor set back on my highest character ever!! I'll press on learn what I can with what I got.

Thanks for the response.

There are some forms that are just mean, but very few that I think of as overly weak. The hardest part to playing a shifter is that not every form will naturally fit your playstyle, and you can't choose one to fit your playstyle. Instead, you must change your playstyle to fit the form you get.

As far as komodo, it may not be the greatest at tanking for ranking now but it would still be a form I would like to have paired with offense for PK so there is a balance. Before it was regen form or bust for most people, the fix did a good job of making them have drawbacks.

I'm for sure going to give it my all. Just did seem a little odd it had the same dam reduction as my tier 3 form, but I know I have a lot to learn on all fronts.

One last thing I would like to note is:

Tier 3 form
Defense : Higher damage reduction against low to mid level opponents
Dam Reduction : Damage Reduction

In testing my tier 3 from out preforms my tier 1 form with just

Dam Reduction : Damage Reduction

is this usually the case in terms of damage reduction for higher and lower tiered forms?

For instance polar bear has more dam redux than lemur.

Defense is either dodge, dam redux + deflection, or regen.

If you have multiple categories they will be less significant that forms with few categories.

I'm understanding better now. Guess with the adjustments made regen forms don't quite shine as well as they used to in terms of dam redux + regen.

Thanks all

So it was kinda #### they had uber-regen AND uber dam-redux.

Ya know?

Komodo is still awesome. I'd be shocked if a hasted/stoneskined fully confident komodo couldn't tank storm giants. I soloed the Archmage of the HToS with a komodo before the change.

Are you talking solo or with two others in the group? With two others it is possible but without two others I don't think it is possible
I of coarse can test this solo if you'd like and post it on the QHCF log board.

Just throwing this out there in case you didn't think to check, but form confidence can play a big part in that I think. My shifter experience is limited, but my crag soarer improved drastically after my confidence in the form went up a lot.

For sure I've been confident for a very long time with this form as I was ranking solo for 80-150 xp on the Sentient trees since rank 42. picking up a group here and there when one was available.

Nt

Not to say this is making or breaking that log, but have you tried different enlivens? I wouldn't think that would be the best for that form.

nt

The defensive enlivens were next to nothing compared to enlivens from other majors. I wouldn't expect a defensive enliven to change what mobs you can or can't tank solo.

Honestly, there are only 2-4 final forms that are noticeably (worse/better) than the rest.

Cheetah is too good.
Walrus is probably too good.
Lemur really kinda sucks now.

....and that's pretty much it. Though I can understand if you don't like Howler Monkey or Giant Wasp because they playstyle doesn't fit.

Zulg did a really really great job balancing the forms. While some might seem "more powerful", I think forms like Cobra, Dire Wolf, Electric Eel are really really nice forms.

NT