Make it so you can't call centurions if there are more than three imperials online or something along those lines. I really don't know a single point against this change unless you want to promote the ganks and very dull environment that exists right now.

Arguments for:

1) Makes retrieval actually possible, brings it in line with other cabals. Current system makes it an assured suicide, especially with the current crop of players.
2) Makes imperials get out and do stuff and actually involve themselves in fights that don't involve summon ganks to razed brewhouse or the eastern road tavern.
3) Makes me and others not want to choke myself to death when logging in and entering who. Now, I haven't died to centurions or summon ganks in weeks, but it's still *edit* to the max all the time.

I know it's been that way for years and years, but the current situation highlights the need for a change. It's probably the same bandwagoners as always, but I'd much prefer they'd have to at least make a token effort at PK.

P.S. I have heard all the pendulum discussions over the years, you can spare that argument, it's not relevant. Making the game unfun should not be a design goal.

I took a nasty death due to that.

As a rager, cents were a PITA for Gergan and he ate a decent % of his deaths because of them.

Don't forget that if you fight a citizen, you cannot pay to pass cents for quite awhile. So, you have to kill them if you get attacked by a defender.

- You pay them going in, your gonna be screwed if it doesn't go your way.
- You kill them going in, someone just throws up more behind you and your gonna be screwed if it doesn't go your way.

Basically, you ever have to flee, your toast because you're not going to be able to kill the cents and survive anyone you're running from. Also, don't think I ever got caught behind cents without an out of range bard/healer/invoker healing/buffing cents and the defender. Was often a death trap if there was even one defender in range.

Was always fun, though.

It's as if we're playing a different game, people.

1) If you need to retrieve from Empire, you almost assuredly can't pay centurions due to RP even if you wanted to. No Fort or Outlander can ever maintain RP and pay centurions. Arguably, Battle won't due to pride and Nexus due to helping the darkness, but the last point is usually moot. Not sure if Scarab would pay cents, that probably depends on each individual role, but would seem meh to me.

2) Altruism is not in play except in the rarest of circumstances. There are so few acolytes and even if there was one around, if you're around 30, it's completely not an issue. And it doesn't affect the PK any. (Not to mention that I've seen more acolytes die due to altruism than save someone. This is not an exaggeration.)

3) Retrieving from tree can be hard if there is a specific build on, but you can always do hit and run, same as any other cabal except Empire. It's not even in the same range of difficult due to no-flee from centurions being unique to them. (Absolutely no flee if fighting PK with them in the room, extremely hard to flee if just fighting them.) Even with insects on you, you can just flee and run away.

4) Kill centurions and come back is not an option. If you've played the game recently, you'd know that all imperials sit within imperial lands for RL hours, waiting for someone to hit centurions. As soon as you hit centurions, you're getting a forget and a sigil of pain from sanced foes. Or, in case you're lower in level, a sanc on (hero and edged) centurions and heals on them until you die. Let's say you gather an overwhelming force and kill the first set. As soon as you step into the lands, you're going to razed brewhouse with a set of cents next to it while your friends battle through the second and third sets and die miserably. Ask Lilyth how well it goes for her trying to retrieve together with like four folks including a healer. (Hint: not well.)

5) First set of centurions is placed in Balator at the border with imperial lands, which means no vanishing past them. Only ways past are air shifter, druid and conjurer. If you're anyone else, you're screwed and not getting your item back. Even if you are those, you're going into the brewhouse.

Seriously, it's crap as it exists right now. As I proposed, three or less imperials online and you can call cents. Three sets and three foes is at least sometimes possible to get through.

IMO, Retrieving from the tree can be way, way more of an issue. If I was sitting at my computer about to logon a character and someone said 'without logging on do you want to retrieve from outlander or empire' I'm choosing Empire every time.

http://forums.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?3,905634,905634#msg-905634

In this log I'm the warrior trying to retrieve. I logged on, waited about five-ten minutes, and went in. I had no idea any of them were even on. That's a no win scenario. (also the set I lost was nothing short of godly.)

With Imperials, you can see who is online and figure out what you're up against which already makes it less deadly than the tree.

Centurions are huge, but you can get over it. There's tons of tactical ways to get around almost any of the complaints you listed dependent on what character you are and who you have to group with you can figure some of them out.

Also, you can flee from centurions, it's just harder. But hard does not mean impossible

Also without a healer (and Empire recently lost their hero healer who had black sanc) it's not altogether impossible to just prep up and kill both cents and THEN flee. Cents don't last long at hero, they just don't.

I'm not a huge fan of trading Scion for Scarab but I really don't think Empire needs a downgrade. Their enemies just need to get their #### together. The only proposed change I've heard here that I'm not super against is to take away Centurion's haste.

For the reasons you described above. It's not even close amongst the other cabals (unless revenants go to the outer...in which case...daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn), to be honest.

I've also had an experience like yours with Hralpelk. With Lightmage's Trib healer, I helped retrieve one time (with my Scion Shifter). We get both items back, and decide, ####, no one came so no one must be on, let's hit the Spirit.

4 Outlanders attacked us about 2 seconds after we hit the spirit, including 2 that logged on DURING THE ATTACK.

I died terribly, Lightmage barely survived, and thus began my eternal hatred for the Outlander cabal.

The stuff you say can't be done is stuff I do.

Sure, if imperials know when you are coming they'll be there, but if you wait a bit before you come they won't.

Also paying cents is great for surprising the guys on the other side of them.

one that could destroy the MUD all together. If you did that, then there would need to be a nerf to fortress altruism, and outlander deadfall and chameleon, and so and, and so forth.

There are many ways around centurions. Airforms can sometimes land past them. Conjurers can phase door past them. Assassins can vanish past them. I think transmuters can walk past them in duo, though that may be wrong, but anyone can pay past them and you can also use items to pay if you don't have the money. You can ask other people to kill them for you. If you're in a big gang they be killed rather quickly.

Empire has a lot of members in power now, so it may seem like they're a lot worse than they really are. It doesn't matter if you want to avoid that argument or not, and maybe that is part of your problem. It is quite relevant. This is carrion fields. Death should very much be the goal. I would rather deal with centurions than hero conjurers spamming altruism next to their archons, any day.

Seriously. If you worry about Altruism...I don't know what to tell you. I've seen more Acolytes die using it than I've seen it work in PK situations.

But you're right about the root issue. Like I said, the shameless Hell whoring has made Empire THE cabal to join for most players, which means Empire is ####ing dominating seriously.

Plus, one of their main enemy cabals have been disbanded (SCION). Another of their main enemy cabals they made a treaty with (BATTLE). Two out of the three other cabals that would make life difficult for them are in the complete crapper (FORT + NEXUS), so basically, either Outlander perma or just join the Empire.

gr

NT

It can also swing PKs if there are in-range defenders. Exactly like centurions.

alturism is only good when it's some poor schmuck mid20s guy trying to retrieve

nt

I can count the number of Acolytes I've seen in the past 10 years who are skilled enough/know how to use Altruism well enough to shut down three level 40s on one hand.

NT

Calling an archon, and then calling altruism, while remembering to not call it right before a tick so you don't die, is not complicated or difficult. The only difficult part is getting promoted to acolyte, and it's not really difficult but rather a matter of time if you don't suck at RPing good alignment.

Anyone who thinks altruism is bleh compared to centurions either hasn't had altruism on a conjurer, or they've died using it and are sour hence forth.

I understand that more people will be familiar with centurions, since it's a lot easier to get that power than it is to get altruism. So most people's view of it is rather biased.

Push back the fold, get off the empire bandwagon, and try fortress. Stop complaining and do something about it, and by do something I mean in the game. Don't just complain on the forums with excuse after excuse as to why you don't like something in the game.

> Calling an archon, and then calling altruism, while remembering to not call it right before a tick so you don't die, is not complicated or difficult.

You say that, but basically everyone in the history of ever died doing it.

I never did, but you're right I have seen a lot of people die to it. I never could fathom how people forgot that it can take you down to 1HP, and that hunger and thirst can easily kill a person at 1HP. Am I wrong when I say it's not complicated? I don't think I am.

Archoned conjurer is a special case re: altruism. They are uniquely suited to make the absolute best of that power and I've STILL seen more conjurers die with altruism than 'turn back three level 40s.'

I don't think centurions or altruism needs to be changed, but I also don't think altruism is some sort of tide-swinging end-be-all power. It's very nice and powerful, but also very dangerous to the user.

Yeah. I've also seen more than a few people think they're pretty suave with altruism and a raid defense and then someone knifes them when they have 1 HP.

It's a great power for what it is but it's not exactly raid defense autopilot.

Remember, Archons can't heal AND cure maledictions at the same time. Has to do one or the other. And if they are pissy, they might lag in how quickly they do it.

IE Straight damage to the Tara'bal? Archon is probably going to be your boo when you use Altruism. But have a dagger spec warrior + necro + shaman....you will likely die or be out of commission for a while.

Also, wtf, stopping 3 level 40s? That's unpossible, unless you had someone in their range to also fight them. Believe me, I know. I retrieved from Fortress with Amatyrsti and Archon Acolyte with Vaedhor at like level 35. It took me 40 minutes (soul-crushing absurd 40 minutes) but still.

NT

Because midbies couldn't retrieve at all. And attempts to do so left many classes vulnerable to the inevitable outtie ambush if you got hurt.

When she was in range she still wasn't that vulnerable because you had to deal with her allies too, including that rather nasty ranger she hung out with that had pursuit. (Nasty in a good way.)

NT

Crazy or not, I'm right about altruism. I have experienced many pissed off tells from people out of my PK range, me being hero level, because of altruism. One time it was just me and my archon defending against six mid 20s imperials, and not only did I keep the Tara'bal from getting past disgusting cuts, but one of the lowbies died after missing what had to be two dozen flee attempts in a row. That guy was angry, but I can't blame him.

If you all want to think my view on altruism is crazy, by all means keep sending me those angry tells after I defend against your efforts. *nightlaugh*

>Crazy or not, I'm right about altruism. I have experienced many pissed off tells from people out of my PK range, me being hero level, because of altruism. One time it was just me and my archon defending against six mid 20s imperials, and not only did I keep the Tara'bal from getting past disgusting cuts, but one of the lowbies died after missing what had to be two dozen flee attempts in a row. That guy was angry, but I can't blame him.<

Yeah, we're not talking about that. Honestly, an Elder Prophet/Cardinal Healer who knows their #### is more scary for protecting the Tara'bal against lowbies (sanc/lifeshield/altruism/etc).

What we are talking about is a hero range solo character trying to retrieve from odds against Empire. It's nigh ####ing impossible in most current situations. Trust me, I wasted 200+ hrs trying it (and dying horribly 70% of the time).

Their ability to communicate over CB when being attacked. Make them yell to the same area (much like deadfall echo's) but beyond that, nada.

In the outlander example, you need to camp out on your traps (with the exception of snare - but that is a class ability).

They have a tendency to take cabal items then just camp out around the tree waiting to gank whoever comes along. Don't let them chameleon around the fortress either.

It's probably the same bandwagoners that do this in outlander as well, but I'd much prefer they'd have to at least make a token effort at PK.

Come in, kill cents. Come back later. Cents coat donations to call.

Or, pay cents, retrieve. Escape if goes bad.

Emperor Cents would literally get me down to 400hp if I wasn't healing, and that's after being distorted etc.

If he has the Centurion Trainer, it's even more brutal.

Just frustrating knowing that the entire cabal now knows you're attacking unless dagger spec or assassin (and you haven't even hit the inner yet), the mobs are often Level 51+, and you cannot, will not ever be able to flee from them (I see logs of people doing it, but I've never managed the feat).

FWIW though, they've always been brutal. We just haven't seen a prolonged period of Hell Trip whoring that is currently going on which makes Empire huge and dominant.

PS Scion being dead also hurts. Scarab and Empire are much more complementary than Scion/Empire (who were/should be at each others throats). Plus Scion mage who knows his #### is a great equalizer period.

PPS This is what happens when IMMs don't think about unintended consequences. It was the same when they first brought back Empire. Every other cabal starting joining up to gang them down (before anti-gank) and you would see 10 on 1's and ####. Zulg and the rest of the IMMs were like "We didn't see that coming"...but they should have.

They fight all the time when there's opportunity and take each other's items.

One issue is that Scarab powers are much more passive and defensive than Scion powers. TOIW is sexy, sure, but it's not despoil + nightwalker + portal.

Two fully prepped scions were usually A) Extremely competent and in the very upper tier of PK savvy, and B) Had strong powers to back them up, allowing them to wreak havoc on Empire with impunity.

Scarab just doesn't have the firepower behind it (that we've seen).

Both of which are great for taking the fight to the enemy.

And like BlueBoy said, Despoil + Nightwalker owns the #### out of TOIW/Revenants in terms of taking the fight to Imperials.

You ever tried retrieving against Outlander with insects and entangle, briar, hunt, etc? Way harder.

N/t