The following specifically:

- All successful Armor Use checks (any variety) give a slightly larger effective AC bonus.

I don't really understand what this means. My assumptions are as follows; when an attack is made a few things happen with respect armor use

The defending character's overall AC is compared to the attacking character's hitroll to determine whether the attack missed

The location of the hit is determined and the attacking character's hitroll, aim and precise aim skill are checked against the AC of the piece of armor worn in the location being hit and the armor use skill of the defender relative to that piece of armor.

Am I correct so far, and correct in thinking these are separate mechanisms? And that the change applies to the second mechanism only?

<insert Morpheus meme pic>

What if I told you that nothing has gone live yet and nobody has a damn clue what may or may not have changed, let alone has experienced any change first hand?

Any perceived glib or facetiousness aside, we do take player feedback seriously, we just tend to wait to take it seriously until after you folks actually know what exactly you're complaining about.

Simma down now.

Lol, mind blown.

Or actually, the behavior doesn't surprise me at all.

Jae

That's awesome - gg Frosty

And the other changes you listed?

Just wanted to know so I can start trying to gather data to compare with old logs and differences in game. Im excited for those changes.

I was getting a headache

I'll write more generally on this topic when I have time later.

The defending character's overall AC is compared to the attacking character's hitroll to determine whether the attack missed

This is accurate, and that code is unchanged (for now).

The location of the hit is determined and the attacking character's hitroll, aim and precise aim skill are checked against the AC of the piece of armor worn in the location being hit and the armor use skill of the defender relative to that piece of armor.

This is accurate, and the effective AC of that location is now bumped up more by a successful Armor Use check, if applicable. Two of the Armor Use skills now also get a bigger bump against select attack types.

One other piece from the helpfile is that sometimes the armor's material further influences that effective AC at that location. For example, an iron breastplate isn't very helpful against lightning.

Am I correct so far, and correct in thinking these are separate mechanisms? And that the change applies to the second mechanism only?

Yes and yes.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I'm looking forward the the full post regarding recent changes.

One small request, if you edit a post to add content, please make it very obvious what the added line is. Especially with a large post like that it took quite a bit of careful reading to eventually notice the line at the bottom about the midnight dragon.

Thanks,

Tac

Just take it out of the game. =P

Seems like every time people start to find a new way to get gold it is removed. Next thing you know selling items will have a chance to randomly turn the vendor aggressive so people will know they better quit participating in the economy.

The midnight is hardly new. I suspect it's less the gold it gives from hoarde/sales but the lowbie friendly gear that's all over the place

The gear is mostly crap, but people seem to always use it anyway. However with these changes it won't be crap, it'll be incredible for lowbies and widen the gap between those who have heroes kitting them out and those who are gearing up by themselves, so it makes sense to make it a little harder to have every other lowbie running round in full midnight gear.

What heroes often use full sets of midnight? Its easier to get better gear at hero range with minimal effort.
Kill off the midnight, rename the npc, make it drop limited gear and watch as midnight dragon armor slowly leaves thera.
Or just makeit so dragons dont drop full armor sets anymore, or that a skill is needed to fashion pieces from raw scales.
Lots of creative solutions beyond make the thing slightly harder to kil.

Of course, those are all more work i would guess.

A few solutions were bandied about, but ultimately the fact that the dragon had an unusual weakness at physical combat made it a five-minute fix. I can't take full credit for the delicious, delicious forum tears it brings from the usual suspects, but I agree with the sentiment and was assured at least a tithing for my services. (You have failed to offer the ritual tears, but I have been sated through other channels, so we're cool this time.)

As you noted, there is a ridiculous amount of midnight armor floating around. This was largely a side effect of the risk/reward ratio of the dragon fight once you account for both currency and items.

However with these changes it won't be crap, it'll be incredible for lowbies and widen the gap between those who have heroes kitting them out and those who are gearing up by themselves, so it makes sense to make it a little harder to have every other lowbie running round in full midnight gear.

I'm very conscious of the gap you mentioned-- the character level vs. armor level piece is another step towards shrinking it a touch.

A few of our players talk about wanting to retain newbies, but don't have the perspective/maturity/sincerity/whatever to willingly accept any sacrifice in the massive advantages they have over newbies. Experienced players know a lot of routes (midnight dragon stuff at very low level being the tip of that iceberg) to superior equipment, and bumping down how much advantage you get from superior equipment is one way to manage that.

Fancy equipment is still desirable-- if we didn't want you to be able to wear gear above your own level, a couple lines of code would do that. Covetousness of wide copper gewgaws drives the economy, fosters conflict, and does a number of other positive things for the game. We're just not interested in seeing it be too much of an "I win" button, and I expect we will have more work to do on that front.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

You have also failed to provide your post regarding the purpose and reasoning behind the changes, which I have been waiting on before commenting.

The guy has just outted himself as exactly the level of douchebag people have been telling me he is for years. A sad day indeed.

Yeah, large portions of our forum-posting playerbase are scumbags, but now you've joined them Valg.

There is other stuff just as good. Might want to do the same to the red-gold dragon too.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

Maybe as a ghost. MAYBE.

I wrote a lot things, deleted most of them, and in the end, it just wasn't worth my time.

I look forward to seeing the changes in implementation.

I can't speak for everyone, but when I say "Valg" I don't necessarily mean you. It is kind of how "Cador" was the name commonly given to any unnamed Imm who yelled at people and slayed them a bunch. It certainly wasn't always Cador, but he was the champion of that style of administration.



>A few of our players talk about wanting to retain
>newbies, but don't have the
>perspective/maturity/sincerity/whatever to willingly accept
>any sacrifice in the massive advantages they have over
>newbies. Experienced players know a lot of routes (midnight
>dragon stuff at very low level being the tip of that iceberg)
>to superior equipment, and bumping down how much advantage you
>get from superior equipment is one way to manage that.

I think it is great to reduce the massive advantages that superior equipment brings to CF. And I agree this will have an impact (most likely very, very small) on the veteran vs newbie low level fights. But you know where else this will have an impact? On hero newbies that are trying to regear. I don't know what you're changing, but the implication is that this will either be harder to do or result in less powerful armor.

Veterans know other places to get similar gear. The lowbie fights will probably end up about the same. At hero though, this is a popular place for newbies to go by themselves or with their allies to start over after a full loot.

I have a suggestion. How about boosting the worst gear, the gear that newbies often pick up off the street or off sub level 5 monsters? What if there were no weapons that were less than avg 15? What if cityguard and patroler equipment was more useful? What if shops began lowering their prices when they held onto their wares for too long (or when out of gold for too long)? What if the disparity between the worst gear and the best gear was not so great?

Instead of pinching hero newbies, why not bolster lowbie newbies?

Hutto

"How about boosting the worst gear, the gear that newbies often pick up off the street or off sub level 5 monsters?"

Thank you, thank you thank you so much. This is it exactly. Veterans will always have "the best". Newbies are the ones stuck with "the worst". The problem isn't that "the best" is too easy to get but rather that "the worst" is so awful.

Most games have a implicit notion that you can get something competitive at a store at reasonable (reasonable meaning, you don't need to farm gold to get it - you'd get it naturally from questing/leveling) cost or as part of normal drops as you're leveling and that really isn't the case in CF. In CF you need to know the "key items" for that level range out of a selection of items that exist *within the entire massive world*. How could a newbie possibly know that the midnight dragon had good armor for a melee type and was killable at rank 35'ish? They would only know that if a veteran *told them that*. This is a problem to begin with.

You're not ever going to meaningfully make things easier for newbies unless you start with improving what they're getting their hands on naturally.

For example, if I want to kill the midnight dragon for my RL ooc buddy, (And a fair amount of people do hook their in cabal, ooc lowbie friends up, don't be naive to think they don't) I am still going to take the time to do it, harder or not. Even moreso now because I know how much of an advantage it will give, knowing less people will have that sort of set at that level.


If I am a hero and a random lowbie offers me a small amount of gold, or even a newer player asks for help, I sure as hell am not going to bother now. Why would I? It's inconvenient. I might have before though, just because it was no big deal.


You have just created a bigger gap between the haves and the have nots, the newer player and people that know people.


I love, LOVE the other monthly changes. I don't like this one is all, I don't see it as a solution especially to the problem it is claimed to solve.

I'm just hoping I misunderstood your counterpoint. It sounds like you are saying this doesn't make things better for new players because you are now MORE likely to "cheat" by having your OOC friends help out your lowbie or vice versa.

A serious question: Are you concerned with things getting better/easier/more fair for new players, or do you just want you and your friends to "win"? If you do want things to get better/easier/more fair for new players then I think that you would still be willing to help them even if it is "less convenient" for you.

I meant by making things harder, you make random people less likely to go out of their way to help because it is more inconvenient. Like, anyone. If I ask a random herald as a lowbie to go kill the midnight dragon now, chances are its not going to happen because its insanely more dangerous. I might be lucky to get the red dragon killed and nobody wants that crap armor. It's all about risk vs reward. Nobody wants to take a blind risk for no reward. Less risk, it becomes less of a big deal to take a minute and RP a way to help out that lowbie or newbie. If I think I am going to eat a death doing it, I'm not even considering it.


####heads that gear their friends will still gear their friends. I was making no direct reference to me, or any one person in particular. But people do it, they have for years. This just makes sure they get their cake still, but the guys that are just asking random peeps are going to be less likely to get help.


I have a character currently that is breaking his back to do anything and everything with no discrimination. The harder it all gets though, It just turns people off to the idea. I could easily have killed the midnight solo before, now I probably won't even bother.

That was what I meant. Not look at me, look at me, I'll cheat anyways. Just trying to look at the picture as a whole, because apparently there has been some clear issues with permagroups lately.


edited to add: Remember, there is a time investment in this game. People don't like their time wasted, with us all getting older and stuff, time becomes more valuable. Risk vs Reward becomes a much bigger factor in those situations. Making the midnight dragon take 5 passes to kill rather than 1 or 2 makes people want to use their time more efficiently.

And it makes me very happy that is the case. I really think that in the grand scheme of it all, the changes that are set to occur are going to have at most a minimal impact on the amount of time killing said dragon takes. As Umiron said previously, the changes are not even live yet so it will be way easier to judge if it has changed drastically or not once they do occur.

And it makes me very happy that is the case. I really think that in the grand scheme of it all, the changes that are set to occur are going to have at most a minimal impact on the amount of time killing said dragon takes. As Umiron said previously, the changes are not even live yet so it will be way easier to judge if it has changed drastically or not once they do occur.

I like to give you guys the benefit of the doubt. I do feel like most of the time you make decisions in the interest of the game, and I would hope issues like this are discussed at a table, not just the decision of one imm and his vision of the game.

I mean, Valg has done some great things for CF. Nobody can deny that. He has also done some very ####ty things in the past, and a lot of the changes he has made has added a direct grind to things that were otherwise easy in the old CF. He has a rep of making CF more like "real life" in the past, and most of us are just too old to put any more time or work into the game than we already do. We don't want a grind. We want more time to PK and RP and Explore, not practice being harder and gold harder to get and all the mess about that. I'm not singling Valg out or saying I hate him. Not at all. I actually rolled with Valg quite a bit back in the glimos/proud blade days, I was very fond of him when we were in masters and he liched. He wasn't always a bad guy nor is he likely now...just a perfectionist.

I think all you imms, most of you do I think, need to play a mortal from time to time and get back into a players shoes. Valg has come and gone quite a bit, but I ask him, when is the last time he played a mortal? Like, to hero, for more than 100 hours, not just a test case for something he needs to code or balance. Perspective is everything, I have said it a million times before.

I'm willing to wait it out and see what happens. I LOVED his other changes, buffing str based warriors some to put them on par with STSF dexy light weapon using ones. The midnight one just seemed unwarranted and unwanted, just another thing to make stuff harder for us players. I don't think most of us want quality of life to get any harder, we already have less time all being older than we were to invest in anyways.

Hope it all works out, sorry for the first misunderstood post. I read it again and was like holy ####, that does sound bad without clarification. But I love to help new players, show them areas, arm them, my current is a great example of that, and I will continue to make others after him. I just want CF to flourish, not fail.

I leave it all back in the trustworthy hands of the imms. Don't let us little guys down!

"As you noted, there is a ridiculous amount of midnight armor floating around. This was largely a side effect of the risk/reward ratio of the dragon fight once you account for both currency and items."

Are you sure it isn't a reflection of how bad most other options are? I never felt like midnight armor was *too easy to get*. Instead I always felt like it was too hard to get the equivalent from stores. And by equivalent I mean not at 5gold/piece and weighing 20 lbs per item.

I see it like the white worm - there's value in that gear merely as a reflection of how easy it is to get. If it becomes less easy to get it just renders the gear worthless.

"A few of our players talk about wanting to retain newbies, but don't have the perspective/maturity/sincerity/whatever to willingly accept any sacrifice in the massive advantages they have over newbies."

I'm not sure this is really the case. I don't know that people - for instance - don't want newbies to have easy access to return potions - but rather they don't want to lose access to such things *themselves*. I personally am all in favor of giving up advantages to make the game better for new players - because generally anything that makes the game easier for newbies generally will also make things easier for people who just don't want to put so much time into the game (like me).

I brought this up a while, while back regarding edge grind. Edge grind is (or was at least, not sure how it is now) newbie unfriendly and created a massive "edge gap" between casual or new players and people who were participating in the grind itself. Personally, my answer is to reduce that gap - which ideally for me would suggest making the "must have edges" or first few edges easier to get combined with reducing how much of a gap can exist with diminishing returns on "super-grind" activities.

So I think it should be some balance between the two - lowering the bar to make the game more friendly to casual or new players while simultaneously reducing the high end gaps that can be achieved with massive grinding. Gear gap is another - I'd love to see the best of the best gear represent a 10-30% advantage rather than a 400-500% advantage - because the latter honestly gets too crazy - especially in a game where "Full looting/sacrificing all of someone's gear" is a thing.

"A few of our players talk about wanting to retain newbies, but don't have the perspective/maturity/sincerity/whatever to willingly accept any sacrifice in the massive advantages they have over newbies."

I'm not sure this is really the case. I don't know that people - for instance - don't want newbies to have easy access to return potions - but rather they don't want to lose access to such things *themselves*. I personally am all in favor of giving up advantages to make the game better for new players - because generally anything that makes the game easier for newbies generally will also make things easier for people who just don't want to put so much time into the game (like me).

I brought this up a while, while back regarding edge grind. Edge grind is (or was at least, not sure how it is now) newbie unfriendly and created a massive "edge gap" between casual or new players and people who were participating in the grind itself. Personally, my answer is to reduce that gap - which ideally for me would suggest making the "must have edges" or first few edges easier to get combined with reducing how much of a gap can exist with diminishing returns on "super-grind" activities.

So I think it should be some balance between the two - lowering the bar to make the game more friendly to casual or new players while simultaneously reducing the high end gaps that can be achieved with massive grinding. Gear gap is another - I'd love to see the best of the best gear represent a 10-30% advantage rather than a 400-500% advantage - because the latter honestly gets too crazy - especially in a game where "Full looting/sacrificing all of someone's gear" is a thing.

That doesn't really make sense. It should have at least the same amount of gold if not more if it is a lot harder to fight now right?

Pretty soon changes should come which require adventurors to get "Real Jobs" to support their adventuring habits.

Well, not the midnight armor change, but geez, just get red dragon armor, waterproof poncho, and back to the races.

I cast this a minor change and declare myself to be unalarmed.

I declare it time to add more readily purchasable but expensive preps so I can keep playing thieves and actually have an advantage over buff warriors who can currently kill rich mobs and get gold faster than I can steal or unlock or fence for gold.