So, I just read the mess that came from my comments about the IMM-xp requirement for ST, god I wish I hadn't posted - that entire thread went places I didn't want it to go.

Regardless, I'd like to try and follow up with a better constructive criticism post.

My main reasons for asking that the IMMxp requirement for ST be removed/reconsidered/adjusted are as follows.

#1 - Having the requirement in place sure makes it 'seem' like people who play empowerment classes, and or actively seek IMM interaction are the people who get to go. I agree with the staff that "IMM xp" is a net positive - I just don't believe it should be a key that unlocks an area full of potent items. IMM xp, while a net positive is always subjective

#2 - My direct experiences with ST in character have not been a 'net positive' let me also say that I have never been to ST. However, I am a very active member of a cabal with my current character. My direct cabal leader spends a lot of time in ST. On the flip side, my cabal leader is completely awesome across the board. When my cabal leader goes to ST, I am by design completely unable to interact with said character. Can't send a tell, no cabal comms, nothing. This seems quite counter-productive to RP, as well as the social aspects of the game. I'd love to 'tag along' with this awesome leader, but I am barred...because I don't have the needed 2k IMMxp, I currently have 700 (500 from role prior to change, and 200 from participating in PK). More background on my character: I am 180 hrs in, have participated in many raid/counter raids/etc, I've interviewed and sent more reqs to my cabal for applicants than anyone I've seen (maybe people note leaders directly). I'm not spending my time in-game trying to stick it to the man, or being a tool. I'm doing what I should be doing (roleplaying, helping my cabal, following the rules). Why shouldn't I be allowed to tag along with my awesome leader to ST - the fact that I cant is a huge detractor to the game at times for me.


In the end, if you won't review ST prereqs, can you maybe 'fix' areas like ST/Organia and remove the "non comms" part of it - people "Cheat" around it using note anyways. And the whole "silence" bit is completely counter-productive to the social aspects of the game. Sit there as a new player applicant hoping to talk to some leader getting 'They cannot be reached" or whatever that canned message is for hours on end - not too great.

here.

#1 Unfortunately, again I have to reiterate RE: ST Imm Xp requirements, that this isn't really about imms bailing out their buddies, or giving preferential treatment to players who they favor, so much as not wanting a string of one-shot exploration characters raiding the area. Like the other people have specified it's more about making sure explorers are invested, or have done something other than just powerrank in 30 hours with little/no interaction outside the group and then delete as soon as they have figured something out.

Regardless, I'd really not like to beat this dead horse so even if I cannot win you over with this viewpoint we will probably have to agree to disagree. Ultimately it is Daev's proprietary content, and it would be pretty facetious to suggest anything aside from respecting the author's wishes for the area. Given that said author has invested thousands of hours into development of the game (including the latest Shaman revamp) and has been a constant presence on the staff for over a decade, that should only add more gravity to this statement. (We lost Zulg recently-ish, let's not lose any more top notch coders?)

I do agree there is a subjective element to Imm Xp. I don't like it either, but I don't really see any way to remove all subjectivity from the system. At best we can try to give solid feedback on various things linked to Imm Xp, and ensure transparency in information to level the part of the playing field.

#2 I am not sure (incidentally) and I say that because it has been a while since I have been to ST myself as a mort, that ST even lends itself to group exploration. I am sure some parts do, but in general it is a pretty rough area mechanically speaking. There are a lot of potential pitfalls.

On the non-communicative part of the two areas you mention, it is quite an interesting point you make. I had never really considered the noting element, but yeah it absolutely doesn't make much sense. I think there is definitely something to be said for that, because noting to get around non-communication is pretty bizarre given the nature of the areas in question. The non-comm part of the areas make sense from an RP/fantasy perspective, but I wonder if there is better way to address it.

The "Silent" part of the tower is partly mechanical though, so I doubt that will be changed. Organia, particularly with note sending, is a more interesting case study to me.

"Ultimately it is Daev's proprietary content, and it would be pretty facetious to suggest anything aside from respecting the author's wishes for the area. Given that said author has invested thousands of hours into development of the game (including the latest Shaman revamp) and has been a constant presence on the staff for over a decade, that should only add more gravity to this statement. (We lost Zulg recently-ish, let's not lose any more top notch coders?)"

Regarding this...can we get an idea of when/if Daev will be ok "lightening up" on Silent Tower? For all the reasons mentioned (absentee explorer cabal leaders, etc) - Silent Tower really is bad for roleplay and bad for balance in the game the way it's handled right now.

That's not to mean it's not an awesome achievement and really engaging area - it's still just kinda bad for the game in its current implementation. The idea of a super secret area that gives you huge mechanical advantages for figuring out but must remain completely secret just doesn't vibe with a social roleplaying game or a competitive PVP game.

I think we all know that and we all also like the area and like Nepenthe and we like the idea of super mechanical powah level 9000 on our characters but something has to give. I think the logical conclusion is that *at some point* we need to nerf the rewards off ST and remove the restraints and integrate it into the game as a whole - or - alternatively make it a seasonal item that is only available on a limited basis (with likewise limited availability/crumbling items) - such that it's not a constant pressure against the core concepts of the game which is meant to be *social* and *competitive* simultaneously.

Edited to add: I know I'll catch a *TON* of flak for this post but I also think it's very fair to say that if you explained Silent Tower to anyone who was considering starting to play this game, this'd be a major turn off to them. The idea that there's an area that only elite people can go to and get items of massive butt whooping power sounds absolutely terrible from a 'new player' perspective. There's really no way to "upsell" it either.

Don't know how good you are, but since the opening I've had three chars in there and even figuring some stuff out I got zero OP eq out (or even anything really good). Most of my time there is trying to stay alive and failing miserably. Not even sure a buddy or two will help with that. So far I can sometimes get something akin to a few speckleds after some considerable effort. People I've managed to talk to don't seem to have progressed much further. Perhaps those who did don't talk about it, but I just have not seen any evidence there's a pile of OP ST eq around in the hero ranks. There are probably ~10-20 current chars with access, and yet it makes no impact on hero PK.

However, I do agree that a cabal leader should not spend all his time there, but that's not the fault of the area or its author.

It does cater to certain classes on who can accomplish something but you can find some nice things in there for use outside - including some pretty crazy preps.

With that said, I'm actually ok with some requirement - if you want OP stuff that doesn't have a requirement, go to the Inferno. There's more gear there and if not even easier to get than everything in ST. Throwing in a "new players won't like it" is kinda meh - equate this to any other game where there is "high end raiding" (i.e. WoW) and that's just how it is. You put in the effort, you get something.

I will add though that I wish more folks would go - just because I want to see an actual archmage die. He made them easier recently since the numbers have died down but I still don't believe any can actually be solo'd. I doubt any have died in quite awhile actually...

"Throwing in a "new players won't like it" is kinda meh - equate this to any other game where there is "high end raiding" (i.e. WoW) and that's just how it is. You put in the effort, you get something."

In no other MMO-like game is access to the areas restricted pending administrator approval. Mechanical rewards for the very end game content is typically only a 5% stat bonus over the tier before it as well and none of it is kept secret. None of those games have permanent con loss or item loss from PVP either - which just ups the stakes.

It's like comparing apples and hand-grenades. Try explaining ST to someone sometime when you're on Ventrilo or whatever with your buddies and you'll see what I'm saying is true. I hang out with lots and lots of PVP types who get infuriated over something as minor as the concept of PVE and PVP gear mingling/overlapping at all. The general reaction to Silent Tower is overwhelmingly positive from a "wow that's a great idea" perspective and that all goes away the second you mention you need to get approved to get into it.

Edited to add: If you read through a lot of forums and pay attention to different games...this isn't really a controversial thing. Nor I think can you just disregard that kind of feedback if you want to understand what an outsider sees when they look at the game. A game needs a selling point - competitive PVP is a strong one but a PVPers desires in a game are strongly contradictory of what a PVE person is looking for. ST strongly appeals to PVE people, until you mention that it's gated by artificial things and there's a good chance they won't be allowed into it (good chance as in, greater than 95% of characters that die don't have an ST pass).

It sucks but you have to get over that point. I had to come to the understanding that this game won't be balanced - there's just some classes that are better, there are some Imms who favor others more, there's the level 15 warrior with hero gear who bashes your fine leather ass into the ground, and there's abilities and gear that instantly kill you with no defense. Even in WoW they always strive for balance but gladiators would always go for certain trade skills or comps that usually pushed the bar of the game (I just got done abusing brew/dk 2s for crazy rating). Are they closer to balance than CF? Absolutely but again this game is not being streamed on twitch with millions of viewers. It'll never be a competitive PVP or balanced game.

And it's not like the "approval" is that hard to get - they already gave stats that a significant amount of folks can actually get in. It's a resource in the game just like anything else. If you don't get any, then change your strategy or just play longer and sooner or later you'll probably get enough as long as you're contributing something. Most people that didn't get enough probably didn't try for it. If you really want to get in quick, then make a star empowerment character.

Ya gotta play by their rules sometimes and this is one of them - I'm all for killing Archmages but if that doesn't happen so some 20 hour gnome murder shifter can't get it to then that's fine by me. Should the requirement be lowered maybe? Maybe. Should there be one? Yes.

The thing is that - if you are selling the game to new people it doesn't work if it isn't a competitive PVP game. That's because the PVP aspect of getting killed and your shinies looted is hard to overlook unless you actually enjoy PVP.

And regarding the approval being hard to get - going by numbers yes it is very very hard to get. As a percentage of hero characters you're talking about less than 1% I'd wager. So yeah that's pretty hard to get. If it was something where anyone with > X hours was pretty much guaranteed then it'd be an entirely different thing but you can't say it's really easy to get when the overwhelming majority of people can't get it.

Edited to add: And no offense but the way you're talking about it seems to be about how this impacts you, personally. It's pretty rare if I'm against something that it's based purely on how it personally impacts me regardless for everyone else - I'm more interested in how it impacts the game as a whole. There's no question that this is a pretty consistent topic when it comes to CF.

When was the last time you actually played CF or do you currently play? I am curious about where you get your numbers for things as well as if you have a first hand experience with these issues or if it is second or third hand.

I think that you tend to bring up some interesting points and views on a lot of things, I just also think that most of your "issues" are from things that were more rampant in the past than currently (not that we don't still have some of the same issues).

This is by no way a slight or an attempt to make some sort of internet argument, its just me trying to better understand the "why" of your view point.

About 4 months ago. You're right that I don't have the exact numbers. Fact checking would be nice but a lot of this stuff you kinda have to guess on (as a player). My opinion would swing significantly if for instance 50% of people could get into ST because I try to take some stance that's grounded in numbers and not just feelings - but it's hard since the numbers you gotta guess at to begin with.

Edited to add : I think you also gotta keep that in mind when you think about player perceptions as well. If I know 3 people out of the 30 people in my range that can get into ST, my perception is that 10% of the playerbase can get into ST. If there's actually another 10 people who *can but don't* I have no way to know that. It will impact my perception of how "elitist" it really is because we're dealing with numbers that are essentially hidden during gameplay - which is part of why it's a bad perception just because of how it works. It's fine to say "ignore perception and just try to enjoy the game" but that's kinda pointless when you talk about what's good or bad for the game because people inherently can't ignore their perceptions. That's why for all intents and purposes "perception is reality" - because people act based on perceptions not based on hidden numbers they don't have access to.

I think that one of the big issues that seems to be overlooked here is the fact that while ST does have some really, really good items in it... Most of those items haven't left there in a really long time, if ever. So when people are saying that the gear in there is breaking the game due to imbalance (I know thats an ugly paraphrase) I don't feel like its a "real" argument. Almost everything that I see out and about from ST is little more than a minor convenience and not something that would cause someone to get a pk they shouldn't have or survive a situation they might not have otherwise.

To me, things like a high dex sword spec having Humansunder x 2 is far more gamebreaking. Or a paladin with Defiance + shield of light. I feel like while the nearly unattainable top tier of ST is vastly superior to other things, the more commonplace bad-A items that you can get without said "imm love" barriers are more likely to be seen and alter the dynamics of the playing field in pvp.

To me "game breaking" is probably not on the same level as you. An item that's inherently superior to other common items available in that same slot (from a stat perspective) is a powerful item. Defiance is way better than all of the stuff I've seen with my own eyes leave Silent Tower but I'm not really in favor of items like Defiance either. I actually really dislike Defiance because it breaks the paladin camp into "Defiance paladins" and "non-Defiance paladins" for all comparison purposes.

I have really strong feelings on gear gap and it's impact on the game as well but that's a whole different thread.

That defiance is probably responsible for more dodgy rp by paladins than anything else. Like happily getting allies killed each time they lose it.

I highly doubt any Archmages have died in a long time - sure it's fun to run around the zone and look at them all, and that's quite a feat in itself, but they are no joke and it takes a lot to take one down.

I'd like to see them down and the gear circulating but with the current restriction it probably won't. We'll have to live with gear that weaponbreaks, instant kills, and more... from a zone that everyone can actually go to.

If they are spending too long in a non comm area they should probably not be leading. I'm also not a big fan of shifter or stealth leaders for similar reasons.

I spent a ton of time in ST as Soviatos - if you couldn't reach me the hour I was in there because you refuse to send a note, then find me the other hundred hours I wasn't in there. Sheesh, instant gratification much?

Another might describe it differently, given that the note system wasn't intended as a bypass to the area restrictions.

It was hey if you're looking for me, send me a note and I'll be aware and make an effort to get in touch with you. Most of the players, especially leaders, would probably be receptive to notes for that purpose. But blaming a leader for not being available (by being in ST or just not being logged in) when they don't know someone is looking for them is not on the leader unless the guy searching them out makes it known. Even then, don't expect instant gratification, give the guy a few days.

I think a lot of players are anti-note because we feel like we're pestering another person when we use them. That said, there are times where it can really make your life easier to just send a note, even an OOC one is fine for arranging things. I was a battle leader for 600 hours and I think I maybe got one note ever asking if I could make time to meet with someone. I stayed up way later than normal because the guy was off hours, just so I could do an interview/induct with him, it was maybe 1 AM my time, so he had little hope of catching an Imm or anyone to get the induct. Without notes, I think he would have deleted, but a little effort on his part and he got his hut.

I wouldn't want to do that every day as a leader, shape my schedule for other players, but most players will try to help out if they can, especially leaders. That's part of what burns out a lot of leader chars, trying to be available for people. Makes me wonder how Imms do it.

A leader who spends huge amounts of time in there and one who goes in there now and then.

There's the absentee leader who doesn't take part in raids or retrievals because they are in there. And there are the ones that do before they start looking at ST.

Edited to add: None of these are directed at specific current characters. They are based on the various leaders I've seen over the years.

one of Naldigar's reasons for voting Gedunthos was his perception of, at least during his playtimes, he and Gedunthos were trying to defend and stuff while Soviatos was off exploring somewhere.

If people were out, I was fighting. I usually explore when I'm bored - and I even took Gedunthos more than once with me

it was times when at least I had logged on after you were already incommunicado, and likely the villagers that were around that time had as well.