Hi IMMs,

I'd like to raise an idea for your consideration.

Right now, I think one of the harder things about being a newbie is figuring out where the good equipment is. A lot of stuff has absolutely zero useful stats, whereas some of the really good stuff is practically infinitely better.

What we might do, is to make all equipment at least a little bit useful. For example, if I pick up a jerkin worn by an ugruk, it has nothing useful except AC. How about making it give +5 hp, +1 hit, at the very least?

So you could separate gear into "tiers", where the lowest tier might just be +1 dam (for fighter-ish gear), or +5/10 hp (for mage-ish gear). Perhaps even make it clear upon "looking" that the gear would either "make you more durable" or "improve your melee attacks" or "improve your movement capacity" or "helps keep you strong and fast".

The vets amongst us might still want top tier gear to be around, and that's understandable. But we could at least pull the bottom tier up so that when random newbie walks in, picks up something lying on the ground, it is at least marginally useful.

Tied to this is weapon averages - we should re-scale everything so that practice weapons are the bare minimum of damage. So if something looks like it should do damage (gold-tipped broadsword) it should deal more damage than a practice sword. Right now, one of the most powerful things for my lowbies is knowing where to get non-limited decent weapons - elegant silver rapier, flame blade, massive truncheon, etc. I'd like to see more weapons close to those lowbie-killer weapons.

Another point is preps. The really essential preps, like detect invis, flying, etc. - should be more widespread. Right now a newbie really needs to know a "list of preps" and then assemble their prep sack from the various corners of Thera - flying, enlarge, reduce, detect invis, recall, teleport. So I think we should have detect invis, flying, recall, teleport basically sold in every major city, with perhaps a few exceptions.

I realise this involves probably a lot of work, but I see that IMMs have been making gradual changes to areas (e.g. I see azure-touched mobs introduced, centaur gear appearing, etc.), I reckon we could change the item stats from various areas step-by-step.

The other thing about newbie-ness - if someone chooses "newbie" during character creation, perhaps we should prevent players from being able to loot more than X items after each kill of them, and also at the same time prevent them from looting more than X items after each kill. Then also add a "return <item> corpse" command so that they can change their looting choice.

>Right now, I think one of the harder things about being a
>newbie is figuring out where the good equipment is. A lot of
>stuff has absolutely zero useful stats, whereas some of the
>really good stuff is practically infinitely better.

Good idea.

>What we might do, is to make all equipment at least a little
>bit useful. For example, if I pick up a jerkin worn by an
>ugruk, it has nothing useful except AC. How about making it
>give +5 hp, +1 hit, at the very least?

Good idea.

>So you could separate gear into "tiers", where the lowest tier
>might just be +1 dam (for fighter-ish gear), or +5/10 hp (for
>mage-ish gear). Perhaps even make it clear upon "looking" that
>the gear would either "make you more durable" or "improve your
>melee attacks" or "improve your movement capacity" or "helps
>keep you strong and fast".

Something like that.

>The vets amongst us might still want top tier gear to be
>around, and that's understandable. But we could at least pull
>the bottom tier up so that when random newbie walks in, picks
>up something lying on the ground, it is at least marginally
>useful.

Here is my reason to play CF. I really need to have monster players to impress and me thinking I want to try to achieve this. Equality is a bore.

It also forces me to consider tactics based on my average outfit.

Maybe some things are too hard, and only obtainable through various kind of IM, IRC for a closed group, and the thought of that is understandable but daunting. Like how on earth will I ever find Silent Tower or Hell.

>The other thing about newbie-ness - if someone chooses
>"newbie" during character creation, perhaps we should prevent
>players from being able to loot more than X items after each
>kill of them, and also at the same time prevent them from
>looting more than X items after each kill. Then also add a
>"return <item> corpse" command so that they can change their
>looting choice.

Please don't make a special newbie mode.

This is one of the most sensible posts I have seen for some time.

Up front, it's not great to create piles and piles of largely identical items-- it starts to defeat the point of looking around more areas, and it limits the number of ways that you can build your character. It also doesn't make sense to have lots of items that have no use to anyone. There are also a lot of items that look useful to a new player (a ring that adds hitroll!), but in practice, they don't do very much because the underlying ability doesn't do enough.

I'd like to bring up the worst items, but probably in ways that make them differently but equally useful relative to existing items. A few ways this can happen:

1) We've done some infrastructure work to try to make more kinds of equipment interesting-- for example, you're starting to see things like "+4% fire resistance". We also have some plans to make it more appealing to keep more attributes high, so that +3 INT ring has some use past level 5 or so.

I realise this involves probably a lot of work, but I see that IMMs have been making gradual changes to areas (e.g. I see azure-touched mobs introduced, centaur gear appearing, etc.), I reckon we could change the item stats from various areas step-by-step.

2) There's a small bottleneck in terms of logistics of making lots of small changes to lots of files, but this is how it will probably happen-- an area or two at a time. I recently made some small changes to the Troglodyte Caverns, etc.

What we might do, is to make all equipment at least a little bit useful. For example, if I pick up a jerkin worn by an ugruk, it has nothing useful except AC.

3) Revisiting the Armor Use skills is on my list as well. In general, I like how the system works, but want to look at the relative importance of that vs. other defenses. (For example, consider the recent change where heavier weapons are harder to parry.) We don't want to just crank up defenses across the board until melee characters can't reliably hit anything.

Mechanically, there's a lot more strategy there, and it could also expand the universe where a lot more gear is useful to someone. For example, mid-level magical sleeves made of lightning with good AC would be more appealing to a mage than chainmail sleeves with similar stats.

This has a nice RP benefit (our thieves in plate armor and fighters in magical robes look weird to a new pair of eyes), and creates strategic choices. We can also theme items differently-- maybe natural armor (leather, wood, etc.) is where you'd look for items that grant lightning resistance.

4) Hitroll ties into the Armor Use system (through skills like Aim, and would likely become more important in a world where armor did a little more. This might also create a niche for some new abilities. (Right now if we made an ability that boosted hitroll, WIS, morale, etc., it wouldn't be worth very much because the underlying ability doesn't do much.)

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I did come across quite a bit of random equipment with those stats you mentioned, so I think the MUD is probably moving in the right direction.

I think this may go some way towards reducing the learning curve for new players.

Particularly I like the RP benefit of encouraging various classes to wear class-appropriate armour. I think that will make more intuitive sense to a newbie as well as add to the RP environment.

...Unless newbies have tools to navigate the knowledge gap.

On the web maps, tips for things to look for in various non-explore areas, a real item search with locations, better mechanical breakdowns (the forums don't really help newbies here...we need a compendium really of all the stuff that's been said...) - those make the game newbie friendly.

The game isn't newbie unfriendly only for the fact that bad gear exists but rather that a new player has to conquer the gear knowledge gap before being capable of surviving even basic NPC fights and they have to do it with more or less no tools at all.

After 20 years of additions, of which I honestly can't think of one that reduces complexity, it is really time to look at making the game more streamlined, not to adding 2,000 new pieces of gear one area of a time.

I would first point out that complex != bad and simple != good. I do think we've made a good number of changes over the past few years (or even months) that make the game more forgiving or more intuitive, the latter arguably making the game less complex.

It's also worth noting that in my tenure as an Immortal heroimms have focused almost exclusively on revamping existing areas to improve quality instead of simply piling more and more stuff on top. That's been very deliberate.

Lastly, I'll add that I agree with much of what Eskelian said. One of our failures has been that while I think we've done a decent job of providing the information players need to learn and master CF, we haven't done the best job of turning that information into content and presenting it properly. Consider that something we intend to improve on in the future.

I've been trying to avoid using simple/complex dynamic because that isn't the point I'm trying to get across, specifically because your first point.

I've been trying to use streamlined as it conveys a different idea. It isn't about making the game simpler, or eliminating complexity, but rather that the button masher (to make a fighting game analogy) can still have fun and win fights even though they'll never be able to really compete against the truly skilled.

Some of that is eliminating bad options (I'm looking at you AC, elbow, knee, etc.) so that people aren't presented with 400 buttons, no manual (or an overly complex one), and only 6 of the buttons account for 99% of the presses of the really skilled player.

To make a more direct comparison, there is a significant portion of CF's gear (especially at the low levels) that is utterly useless. Worse, without a database, it doesn't appear the problem can even be properly framed.

It might be easier to look at what the core components of CF gameplay should be and then make changes to get back to basics. As an example, it's probably easier to chuck AC altogether and just admit CF has always been about skills, not armor class for damage avoidance/reduction than to try to fix it.

With melee enemies below lvl 20 ac is king.

at least in practice it is hard to gear for AC and very few actually do it. It is also trivially easy to throw on enough hitroll to make any gearing for AC pretty well useless. 2 tarnished silver rings are pretty much going to ruin any AC build's day, without sacrificing a significant amount of damroll.

But equally few gear for hit roll. And you can get -110 ac without using more than 2 rings plus zapping with a lowbie wand. Throw on dex and the rest of your gear and in practice those who use ac do dominate.

Beat example I can think of is a lowbie mino shaman I played years ago who lucked into a set of Darien platemail plus a few other things and could fight groups of 5 with earthquake since hardly anyone could hit him. Even when my link froze and I died to a group it was something like 20 rounds if them doing stuff like flee charge (while I still had enough hp to be charged) to kill me.

Ac is also a key reason why lowbie shifters can easily pk. It's why I'm rather amazed that it can be heavily rewarded because whilst it appears hard to do, it's actually not. Similar for other classes that use spells or supps but I mention shifters because they are often assumed to be vulnerable as out of form lowbies.

Hidden in quotes because the reality is anyone could read the rom2.3 code and see how thac0 and AC interact, but because our benevolent Imm staff believes knowledge=skill it's only used by those who have "figured it out".

Honest question. I've played quite a few shifters, but never really bothered with those spells.

The point about shifters is people assume they are vulnerable out of form, bug using the same ac gear and wand as any other wand user they will be near unhittable and hence can kill with ease using offensive wands.

They also give 20% damage reduction vs. the the damage type each partial shift is strong against, with shell of the tortoise offering a lower % but equal across the spectrum of physical damage. If you intend on being a lowbie shifter pk character, they are worth taking. If you intend on just powering through lowbie ranges to your first 2 or 3 forms, then no, you do not really need them.

If you DO take them, partial shift, plus sheen of stone wand, plus armor spell/supp, plus some AC rings and a few other low level AC items, and lowbie shifters become pretty tough to kill with physical damage without having some above average gear (for a lowbie). This becomes even more true with the addition of Horns of the Bull and a few choice low-level offensive wands.

I get the concept of Hitroll. I also understand to many it is often viewed as a useless stat. I am sure you all are kicking around ideas for it, but for the playerbase to chime in on what may be nice to see, would you mind being clear as to what it affects now?

I am assuming it is your Regular Strikes, Your aim Skill to bypass armor, thief skills that are explicit on what it helps. Are there other things?

What if hitroll gave you a chance to make an extra strike beyond your normal second/third/fourth attack skills? What about multiple hit skills like Drum/Flurry/Lashes/etc. What about ensuring your strikes hit an evading target? Just some ideas.

Never mind. I misunderstood what you were saying so have edited out my original reply.

>1) We've done some infrastructure work to try to make more
>kinds of equipment interesting-- for example, you're starting
>to see things like "+4% fire resistance". We also have some
>plans to make it more appealing to keep more attributes high,
>so that +3 INT ring has some use past level 5 or so.

It's been suggested before, but how about doing some infrastructure work to make a searchable database of low level/non-limited items to make this sort of thing easier to find.

It would also help identify particularly terrible items. If you create an item database that's just items sub level 15, I'd gladly identify the 90%+ that I would never wear.

>2) There's a small bottleneck in terms of logistics of making
>lots of small changes to lots of files, but this is how it
>will probably happen-- an area or two at a time. I recently
>made some small changes to the Troglodyte Caverns, etc.

I checked out this area, and while I'm sure I might have missed stuff, I can't imagine using anything in the area over something that adds +2 dam or +10 hp. %1 slash resist is interesting, but interesting like "Huh", not like "Neat, I'm definitely grabbing this as a lowbie from now on." I'm not trying to #### on your work, but if the goal is to have people using things other than skull rings at level 10, this won't cut it. If that isn't the goal, well, I'm not sure what the goal would be, or why you would put in the effort...

On a related note, still several sub avg. 10 weapons in that area, which are totally useless since practice weapons are better in every way.

>3) Revisiting the Armor Use skills is on my list as
>well. In general, I like how the system works, but want to
>look at the relative importance of that vs. other defenses.
> For example, consider the recent change where heavier weapons
>are harder to parry.) We don't want to just crank up defenses
>across the board until melee characters can't reliably hit
>anything.

See my idea below regarding hitroll, defenses, armor use and AC. Is something that could probably be put into place (after testing) fairly rapidly.

>Mechanically, there's a lot more strategy there, and it could
>also expand the universe where a lot more gear is useful to
>someone. For example, mid-level magical sleeves made of
>lightning with good AC would be more appealing to a mage than
>chainmail sleeves with similar stats.

Agreed.

>This has a nice RP benefit (our thieves in plate armor and
>fighters in magical robes look weird to a new pair of eyes),
>and creates strategic choices. We can also theme items
>differently-- maybe natural armor (leather, wood, etc.) is
>where you'd look for items that grant lightning resistance.

This sounds good, please agree to some standards before you set out... and then share them/put them in a helpfile. It would become apparent fairly quickly.

>4) Hitroll ties into the Armor Use system (through
>skills like Aim, and would likely become more important
>in a world where armor did a little more. This might also
>create a niche for some new abilities. (Right now if we made
>an ability that boosted hitroll, WIS, morale, etc., it
>wouldn't be worth very much because the underlying ability
>doesn't do much.)

I'm surprised that you didn't respond to the Nuke AC idea since it was at least influenced by several of your posts regarding armor, etc.

I'm not sure if this is already in, if so ignore the newbie suggestion. But is it possible to make a pair of sleeves that either gives a bonus to fire damage or makes it more difficult for your target to save vs your fire spells? And then expand upon that to include all wear slots and all elements? Just a suggestion on how you can make some gear that differs from everything else.

>4) Hitroll ties into the Armor Use system (through
>skills like Aim, and would likely become more important
>in a world where armor did a little more. This might also
>create a niche for some new abilities. (Right now if we made
>an ability that boosted hitroll, WIS, morale, etc., it
>wouldn't be worth very much because the underlying ability
>doesn't do much.)

One thing that would make hitroll more important would be to have it impact the landing chance of most/all of the (input) combat skills. Not make it overly important, i.e. skill % and relevant stats would still be the most important thing, but you could e.g. compensate your suboptimal stats a little by having a high hitroll.

Pretty sure at least SOME skills already do this.

There's one skill I can land near 100% of the time if I boost hitroll, but less than 50% of the time if I don't. Unless there's some RNG craziness that's been going on for a while.

...is that adding exponentially more choice to the equation isn't going to actually help but hurt the situation.

Unless you did that and *also* had an online item search that worked for non-explore areas...

(hint hint)

Things have to be meaningful and even 4% fire resistance (assuming that's all it does) just doesn't cut it for me to want to memorize the stats on 9400 pieces of gear.

I like the idea. Something a bit more radical (for discussion and consideration) and I think it's been suggested before - an "adventurer" option. Call it "pacifist" perhaps. But this option would prevent you from looting items from a corpse and in exchange will prevent (or perhaps limit) others from looting items from your corpse. To prevent "gear lockers" make an exception for "famous" / "legendary" items - those can always be looted.

The draw of CF has always stemmed partly from the fact that it is a merciless PK environment.

I think for the purpose of encouraging newbies to stay and deterring a few bad apples from spoiling a newbie's experience, it might be useful to have a looting restriction as a semi-OOC compromise.

But what you're proposing sounds like a new part of CF, not tied to OOC considerations of attracting newbies. That would change CF's environment itself.

or "The Scholar" or "The Peasant" whatever, something.

Max level 10: Level 10 characters already can't keep limited items and can't enter explore areas.

Skills:
Dagger
Shield block
Parry
Dodge
Lore %100
Haggle
Panhandle %100
Herbs
Hide
Sneak
Gentlewalk
Tradesman (Can buy items of any level)

Spells:
Invis
Word of Recall (can't remember if you can recall at 10 or not)
Teleport
Lightning Bolt

Can't accomplish much with this character and can't be a gear locker. Great for learning your way around, learning city shops, and gathering/identifying low level items they will find useful on their real character.