As I've seen both sides, I wanted to bring this up and see what others think as well. No "Mongoose is ####" stuff, but just basic approach to a problem.

Tribunal is immensely on the winning side of this fight, if you've fought either side you can imagine why. My biggest complaint comes in the form of guards - those guards are insanely difficult, the lieutenants even worse. Outlander retrieval is practically a joke as I've seen it from both sides - those lieutenants/guards can tear through the Huntress. On the flip side, for an Outlander to retreive the Fetish is pretty much suicide unless you're out of range. If you fight any tribunal at that spot, the guards assist. Multiple tribunals, multiple guards - being a criminal and accomplishing this is beyond one-sided - let's fight Manacled against 4+ guards and many tribunals...

Most of the argument against toning Tribunals down stems from "they're only powerful in the cities" - to raid, you have to go through a city and fight - which makes you a criminal (and those out of pk range can harm you) - and then you have to exit through a city. Also, to retreive, you have to fight on not only city ground, but you get to fight their guards as if you were a criminal. The only thing you're saved from is manacles.

There's also the fact that the Leader guards can walk anywhere and basically trump must people since their offensive capability is comparable to the Orc Horde, moving Centurions, or pet-shifters. (When you see 8 MANGLES a round against the Huntress, you wonder why we got the Scales anyways).

My suggestions?

*Guards shouldn't assist unless it's a criminal - period. There's no reason a guard should fight unless they're fighting a criminal - none of this free mercenary stuff when you are attempting to retreive.

*Those lieutenants/Leader guards really need to be toned down - they outdamage almost all classes and the answer "it's only for criminals" is preposterous considering the point of Outlanders is to raid, and that makes you a criminal. They also work against you when you retreive and fight the Leader. They also shouldn't be used to retreive the Scales - get it yourself, stop abusing two super mobs to do your dirty work Outlanders can't have beasts without their Fetish, why should guards work outside cities without the Scales?

*Manacles and casting - it's been said a billion times, not really worth starting over.

The rest I'm going to leave up to others. I know I'm not alone in this, there are a lot of frustrated individuals and I've seen a few Outlanders say "Ahh, hell, let's just wait til they all leave" - the pure idea that the only viable way to retreive or raid is when everyone is gone....is just sad.

Despite the fact that my weapons and armor are in desperate need of repair, I blow the entire king's reward on Ale and Whores!

I've almost got down to the bottom of this ridiculously long thread. Pretty much all I see is blah, blah, blah, whine, blah, blah, blah, whine more. Okay, here's my two cents.

Being a healer for the Outlanders is great. This is my... hmm.. maybe third of fourth Outlander, after I'd been a dozen or so Sylvan characters. Its fun for me because its a completely different class than I usually play and most people look forward to when I can help out. I think I add a bit more roundness to the cabal. And that's just it. The cabal is not about the powers. No cabal should be. Its about the added challenge, the roleplay, and new experiences. Out of all the characters I've played, I see no reason to complain about things as they are. If people just shut up and play, we'd have a lot more fun. Here are a few things I've noticed lacking on the players side, not the powers side.

First, Trib leaders are on a lot more often than Outlander leaders. Tjok carries pretty much the whole cabal on his shoulders. There's no Nightreaver and there's no Sunwarden because nobody bothers to show up. When there is no one there to defend, of COURSE our item is going to get taken. So, play more.

Second, powers aside, Outlanders are fierce. Tyke and I (mostly Tyke) tore through three Tribunals in their city with their guards and then raided the Spire pretty much unopposed. I kept an aura on him and rarely had to heal him. He's not even a hero yet. I don't recall any Outlander powers we used inside the city either, except I tried to subvert once and succeeded. Where's the imbalance there? Tjok once told me "Healers make everything easier," but before I came along and when I'm not there, no one has a problem raiding without me.

Third, as Nepenthe said, Outlanders are spending way too much time in civilization if they don't think to hunt the favorite spots first. Why deal with a Tribunal in the city when you could dispatch them in the forest instead? We lose our powers and no one can retrieve right away, so some tribs go off to learn knowing they can eat a pill when they want to get back. What do we do? We attack the Captain instead of trying to hunt the Tribs on our own turf. Umm... yeah, that's brilliant. The Outlanders should be more cunning than the narrow-minded lawmen. 'Nuff said.

Fourth, I am constantly Wanted, and I'm proud of it. I look forward to seeing how many times I've been flagged as a criminal when I finally con die. The only thing is that I wish it would tell you the average time you spent as a criminal and your longest run. The only time you get annoyed with Wanted signs is when you step into a city, and you shouldn't unless there is a purpose.

Fifth, barter makes EVERYTHING easier. Even when I roll up a new character and decide not to be an Outlander, I still never use coins. Its a hassle. I can pick up two pieces of equipment and learn to my heart's content. I honestly don't see the problem here.

Sixth, Tribs are not the only enemy and to think that we should have anti-cabal-specific abilities only is retarded. It just so happens that right now, the Tribs give us the most trouble because they have the numbers and not all of their members up and quit when it gets a little difficult. The Tribunals are a long-established cabal whereas the Outlanders are still new. If Outlanders... I dunno.. stuck with the cabal so that our numbers matched, the IMMs could start to genuinely determine if there is an imbalance. Right now all they can see is one lowbie Outlander on at a time to defend against three Tribunal Leaders who want to come raiding. That's a player-caused imbalance, not a game mechanics imbalance.

With all that said, and I could go on for a while, I hope everyone will try to improve the cabal with themselves instead of seeking "divine intervention." The game isn't going to be handed to us on a silver platter. Let's get our numbers up, let's stick with our characters, let's play our hearts out (because we're all a bunch of CF-lovin' geek addicts), and leave the rest to those who watch.

By the way, for the record, I've died less PK deaths as Outlanders than any other cabal I've played. So, hmph! to you!

I've played two outlanders, one of which (Rindleblin), I felt had moderate success.

The biggest drawback to being a Tribunal is, for around 90% of the cabal, you can narrow down their location to two or three spots which which is huge for planning purposes. If you want to kill Tribunals in town, if they are on duty you know they are in a partivular town or in the spire. If you think they will raid, you have a pretty good idea of when the raid will come based on who is on and off duty. A Tribunal should never surprise anyone (with a few exceptions of stealth type classes, but that isnt really related to the cabal.)

My biggest complaint about outlander powers is the similarity to sylvan powers of most of the better ones. I remeber reading posts earlier in the year complaining that most people were playing outlanders as more of the wilderness protector types and not the make tribunals and imperials bleed from their ears types. I think this is more of a result of most of the outlander's better powers being more suited to protecting the wilds than aggresively fighting imperials and tribunals than the outlander player base not wanting to. Subvert can be very nice when it works, but ignite and vandalize arnts going to do much to swing a fight your way.

I think the bigger problem lays more with the players rather then the powers. Outlander is very out numbered and doesn't have a lot of people playing support classes to back them up. I can see even if it was just a healer, invoker, and a couple warriors them kicking a lot of ass - despite guards. Tribs have a much wider variety of classes playing most of the time and against one warrior that is kind of daunting. Add all your other enemies into the mix, and you're pretty much running for your life most of the time.

Having played two sort of defensive evil warriors in the cabal the guards were never that big of a deal for me. Also, retrieving from the spire in the middle ranks is a joke when compared to empire if there is black shroud and cents in the picture (imagine how frustrating it is not even being able to get to the outer guardian).

I do have fun fighting tribs on their turf, it is a intresting challenge. The thing is, I would be just as effective without a cabal - maybe even more so if I could use healers/shops/etc. So, what I would like to see someday is new outlander powers. As a warrior the evil align powers are either nullified by other affects you can do (would rather be able to berserk for the HP then ignite) or easily countered (subvert).

So really what I'm saying is I would rather see outlander tweaked before the other cabals. Their powers seem as cool as other cabal powers where as outlander powers are not (atleast evil align).

I can honestly say my recent character never died because of enemy cabal power inbalance. And after I re-read my logs, it is easy to find my own mistakes. I didn't do bad as a lone warrior taking on a whole city, you can't really expect to make too many kills doing that, and I didn't expect to, but it is fun as hell to run in cause as much havok as possible, and get out by the skin on your teeth.

Things that annoyed me the most:

Cabals placement. Often we would get raided and by the time I got there it was already over. Get raided by a trib or two, run from Velkyn oloth can't go eastern because of imperial death trap. Go all the way around, etc. That sucked - even from many of the hometowns, as long as you avoid eastern, it is going to take a little time to take the back routes. Though the little maze where the cabal is kicks ass. Awesome for PK advantage.

Bartering/vandalizing. Maybe make vandalize more specialized? Like if I want to try and steal a return potion instead of the useless thief ingriedent.

Things that annoyed me the most about Tribs:

Manacle + any other dex malediction = ####ed in more ways then one. Can only gear for so much + dex without being a wimp in all other areas.

Guards looting all of the shinies with a quickness. Gear and preps from kills is important for outlanders.

And lastly a idea a friend of mine had:

All other Cabals have a sort of expansion theme (Empire ruling the world, Fortress making everyone good, outlander destroying civilization etc.). And it seems like (I've never played one) tribunal just guards its couple of cities and thats it. We thought it would be kinda cool if tribs were able to expand in a way that the laws would go to other cities. Like Tir-talath. Then, Outlanders can come in and bring chaos and shut it down if they do enough damage. So, if outlander beats down the spire enough and holds the scales long enough their influence starts leaving the cities they hold. Just thought I'd throw this out there.

>I think the bigger problem lays more with the players rather
>then the powers. Outlander is very out numbered and doesn't
>have a lot of people playing support classes to back them up.
>I can see even if it was just a healer, invoker, and a couple
>warriors them kicking a lot of ass - despite guards. Tribs
>have a much wider variety of classes playing most of the time
>and against one warrior that is kind of daunting. Add all your
>other enemies into the mix, and you're pretty much running for
>your life most of the time.

We've got a healer, bard, and 2 druids now...it's not so bad in that department. Warriors are easily considered on a different scale than any defensive class or support class - especially when you're a defensive spear spec with haste Read the logs again and see how much you parried guards - and then look at how much you didn't and make that exponential to the other classes.

>Having played two sort of defensive evil warriors in the cabal
>the guards were never that big of a deal for me. Also,
>retrieving from the spire in the middle ranks is a joke when
>compared to empire if there is black shroud and cents in the
>picture (imagine how frustrating it is not even being able to
>get to the outer guardian).

People always forget, you can always pay and walk right by.

>I do have fun fighting tribs on their turf, it is a intresting
>challenge. The thing is, I would be just as effective without
>a cabal - maybe even more so if I could use healers/shops/etc.
> So, what I would like to see someday is new outlander powers.
> As a warrior the evil align powers are either nullified by
>other affects you can do (would rather be able to berserk for
>the HP then ignite) or easily countered (subvert).

I'll agree that evil outlander powers are a mute point, but the others aren't that good either.
-Trepidation wakes sleeping opponents.
-That anti-undead/conjie scream for neutrals, how is that fit into fighting Empire or Tribunal?
-Bioempathy is great for resting but offensively, it doesn't help that much.
-Preservation - we don't fight Scions and invokers are rare, so um...ya
-Beast call and windwalk - both good powers, but ironically both Sylvan powers...and losing windwalk when you're hunting in towns is a bit harsh.

>So really what I'm saying is I would rather see outlander
>tweaked before the other cabals. Their powers seem as cool as
>other cabal powers where as outlander powers are not (atleast
>evil align).
>
>I can honestly say my recent character never died because of
>enemy cabal power inbalance. And after I re-read my logs, it
>is easy to find my own mistakes. I didn't do bad as a lone
>warrior taking on a whole city, you can't really expect to
>make too many kills doing that, and I didn't expect to, but it
>is fun as hell to run in cause as much havok as possible, and
>get out by the skin on your teeth.

As a defensive spec with a lot of hps and a lot of offensive power, it's fun - I'll give you that, I've been there.

>Things that annoyed me the most:
>
>Cabals placement. Often we would get raided and by the time I
>got there it was already over. Get raided by a trib or two,
>run from Velkyn oloth can't go eastern because of imperial
>death trap. Go all the way around, etc. That sucked - even
>from many of the hometowns, as long as you avoid eastern, it
>is going to take a little time to take the back routes.
>Though the little maze where the cabal is kicks ass. Awesome
>for PK advantage.

I tried saying this early on, but yeah, it needs to be moved...we can't even have a hometown over there - how fun is it to recall to Emerald Forest and have to walk around Eastern to get to the Refuge?

>Bartering/vandalizing. Maybe make vandalize more specialized?
> Like if I want to try and steal a return potion instead of
>the useless thief ingriedent.

Never figured out how long the shop was unavailable.

>Things that annoyed me the most about Tribs:
>
>Manacle + any other dex malediction = ####ed in more ways then
>one. Can only gear for so much + dex without being a wimp in
>all other areas.

It's worse as a casting class - it's why you don't see any invokers, transmuters, etc.

>Guards looting all of the shinies with a quickness. Gear and
>preps from kills is important for outlanders.

Yeah, it's annoying when you see some lowbie full loot insta-quick and legally

>And lastly a idea a friend of mine had:
>
>All other Cabals have a sort of expansion theme (Empire ruling
>the world, Fortress making everyone good, outlander destroying
>civilization etc.). And it seems like (I've never played one)
>tribunal just guards its couple of cities and thats it. We
>thought it would be kinda cool if tribs were able to expand in
>a way that the laws would go to other cities. Like
>Tir-talath. Then, Outlanders can come in and bring chaos and
>shut it down if they do enough damage. So, if outlander beats
>down the spire enough and holds the scales long enough their
>influence starts leaving the cities they hold. Just thought
>I'd throw this out there.

I personally liked the idea that each Spire town had a icon of power - no icon, no guards, no magistrates. And the Spire was OUTSIDE of town.
It'd be a bit to keep tabs on which city items of power we had, but I think it'd be fun....tribunals in Galadon? Let's raid Ruined City and Hamsah.

Despite the fact that my weapons and armor are in desperate need of repair, I blow the entire king's reward on Ale and Whores!

Guards attacking you when you are not wanted is a bit frustrating but you also have to look at it from the other side. A member of a semi secret organization that is against Civilization is attacking my home/workplace.

As for the 8 mangles a round, I've had it happen to me before and will happen again, it is a 99% chance it's your fault though it happened.

As for having the Vindicator raiding well, you can beastcall him as an outlander among other things. Beastcall has allways been the sylvan/outlander super mob that does their dirty work.

For passing through the city, having played plenty of sylvans you learn the quickest way to the Spire that avoids most of the guards, as well you can have them dealt with by other cabal members or applicants.

When you raid Tribunal while wanted yes you are going to have a very tough time, but unwanted it's very easy. Remember they are supposed to obey the laws and can flee back to Galadon without fear of being struck.

But -raiding- will get you wanted no matter what, right? It's retrieving that you can do without getting a warrant.

Personally, I think being able to retrieve without getting warranted is a little silly. Just tone down tribunal powers.

Yeah raiding is considered intruding into the Spire and gets you the warrant. Retrieving you aren't supposed to, but some people like to play lawyer.

>Guards attacking you when you are not wanted is a bit
>frustrating but you also have to look at it from the other
>side. A member of a semi secret organization that is against
>Civilization is attacking my home/workplace.
>
>As for the 8 mangles a round, I've had it happen to me before
>and will happen again, it is a 99% chance it's your fault
>though it happened.

So you have to prep to survive a normal cabal ability? Come on people, this isn't deathblow, it's two mobs that can rescue/loot and tapdance on you, even if you're 30 ranks below.

>As for having the Vindicator raiding well, you can beastcall
>him as an outlander among other things. Beastcall has allways
>been the sylvan/outlander super mob that does their dirty
>work.

Hahahahahaa, one of these days I'll post a log of my uber wolf getting one rounded by those lieutenants.

>For passing through the city, having played plenty of sylvans
>you learn the quickest way to the Spire that avoids most of
>the guards, as well you can have them dealt with by other
>cabal members or applicants.

All it takes is one smart Tribunal, and you have an immensely harder time getting in/out.

>When you raid Tribunal while wanted yes you are going to have
>a very tough time, but unwanted it's very easy. Remember they
>are supposed to obey the laws and can flee back to Galadon
>without fear of being struck.

Ok, what didn't you understand about my post? Let's say you're not wanted - but in your pk range is 2 Tribunals. Not a big deal right? Wrong! You have 2 tribunals and 4 guards to deal with - lieutenants if you're lucky. Not to mention, they love summoning mobs that have the same name as the outer guardian (haven't fallen for it yet, but others have) - and the whole bit about "you can rest just outside!" - so can they and better than you, because they can use the healers and you can't. Oh, and if you steup outside to heal in the woods...they can come after you.


And here's the newest piece in this annoying unbalance -

1) You can't have others or uncaballed members help you retreive, or they get wanted, then you get wanted for helping a criminal! Ya!
2) If you sit there fighting the Tribunal long enough and they ask you to leave, they have a loophole in their laws to make you wanted for not leaving when asked since "you're obviously not raiding".
3) You can't just sit there and wait for a tribunal to walk by, or guess what, you're loitering - and wanted.

Despite the fact that my weapons and armor are in desperate need of repair, I blow the entire king's reward on Ale and Whores!

So you have to prep to survive a normal cabal ability? Come on people, this isn't deathblow, it's two mobs that can rescue/loot and tapdance on you, even if you're 30 ranks below.

And you do have to prep to some extent. Part of going against the man is the fact that the man has men that help him keep being the man. As far as game balance goes, guards are suprisingly fragile as well.

Hahahahahaa, one of these days I'll post a log of my uber wolf getting one rounded by those lieutenants.

Wow I've got around 7 years worth of logs of that happening. I've also got logs of my guards being torn apart in two rounds by Sylvans and Battleragers.

All it takes is one smart Tribunal, and you have an immensely harder time getting in/out.

Outsmart him than.

Ok, what didn't you understand about my post? Let's say you're not wanted - but in your pk range is 2 Tribunals. Not a big deal right? Wrong! You have 2 tribunals and 4 guards to deal with - lieutenants if you're lucky. Not to mention, they love summoning mobs that have the same name as the outer guardian (haven't fallen for it yet, but others have) - and the whole bit about "you can rest just outside!" - so can they and better than you, because they can use the healers and you can't. Oh, and if you steup outside to heal in the woods...they can come after you.

If you fight them in the woods they don't have guards it's normal pk. As for resting outside the spire yes they can use healers but it's incredebily easy to get yourself fully healed without have to actually use the rest command, in one hours game time you can be fully healed without using a healer.



1) You can't have others or uncaballed members help you retreive, or they get wanted, then you get wanted for helping a criminal! Ya!

Play an outlander and you expect to be warranted, part of the cabal.

2) If you sit there fighting the Tribunal long enough and they ask you to leave, they have a loophole in their laws to make you wanted for not leaving when asked since "you're obviously not raiding".

Deal with it, warrants for intruding into the Spire have been an issue since it first came into the Mud.

3) You can't just sit there and wait for a tribunal to walk by, or guess what, you're loitering - and wanted.

And?

> So you have to prep to survive a normal cabal ability?
>Come on people, this isn't deathblow, it's two mobs that can
>rescue/loot and tapdance on you, even if you're 30 ranks
>below.
>
>And you do have to prep to some extent. Part of going against
>the man is the fact that the man has men that help him keep
>being the man. As far as game balance goes, guards are
>suprisingly fragile as well.

Through 4 invoker shields and preps, they still do Mutilates+ with lieutnenats, no amount of prepping will help you there. Not everyone is a defensive spec or an offensive powerhouse - about 90% of the class combos in the game are average joe in those areas, and those get raped - aka non-warrior/shifter.

> Hahahahahaa, one of these days I'll post a log of my uber
>wolf getting one rounded by those lieutenants.
>
>Wow I've got around 7 years worth of logs of that happening.
>I've also got logs of my guards being torn apart in two rounds
>by Sylvans and Battleragers.

Have you ever even tried fighting a lieutenant? We're not talking your level 20 guards, I'm talking hero guards or lieutenants. HUGE difference.

> All it takes is one smart Tribunal, and you have an
>immensely harder time getting in/out.
>
> Outsmart him than.

And how do you supposed we do that when they have the Fetish? They already sit in town as it is, it's not like the meander away for the hell of it. Your only option is to go straight for the player, who has a huage advantage against you (manacle/guards/otherplayerguards/etc).

>
> Ok, what didn't you understand about my post? Let's say
>you're not wanted - but in your pk range is 2 Tribunals. Not a
>big deal right? Wrong! You have 2 tribunals and 4 guards to
>deal with - lieutenants if you're lucky. Not to mention, they
>love summoning mobs that have the same name as the outer
>guardian (haven't fallen for it yet, but others have) - and
>the whole bit about "you can rest just outside!" - so can they
>and better than you, because they can use the healers and you
>can't. Oh, and if you steup outside to heal in the
>woods...they can come after you.
>
>If you fight them in the woods they don't have guards it's
>normal pk. As for resting outside the spire yes they can use
>healers but it's incredebily easy to get yourself fully healed
>without have to actually use the rest command, in one hours
>game time you can be fully healed without using a healer.

Lieutenants and certain guards can go in the woods, so that's void. Not everyone is a prep-whore either, I'm not going to spend 3 hours getting preps so I can heal quickly and run-in/run-out over and over again to get the Fetish, when they can tapdance through the Huntress/Spirit with those super guards.

>1) You can't have others or uncaballed members help you
>retreive, or they get wanted, then you get wanted for helping
>a criminal! Ya!
>
>Play an outlander and you expect to be warranted, part of the
>cabal.

Retreiving/raiding as a criminal is a LOT harder than any other cabal war because of the effect of out-of-pk range characters. It doesn't just make others powerful, but it's harmful to you. You can have some piddly-dink healer in Empire healing your enemy, or you can have some piddly-dink healer healing your enemy AND his guards AND using manacles AND using his guards. It's a big difference.

>2) If you sit there fighting the Tribunal long enough and they
>ask you to leave, they have a loophole in their laws to make
>you wanted for not leaving when asked since "you're obviously
>not raiding".
>
>Deal with it, warrants for intruding into the Spire have been
>an issue since it first came into the Mud.

If you are fighting, one on one with a Tribunal at the Captain, and they ask you to leave, they warrant you if you don't. That's ####.

>3) You can't just sit there and wait for a tribunal to walk
>by, or guess what, you're loitering - and wanted.
>
>And?

A loophole, so out of pk players can screw with you also. Yippy!

You think it's so easy? I challenge you to roll up an Outlander and when you delete/die, call me out as you clearly have this supreme idea how it is balanced - prove me wrong and walk all over the Tribunal/Spire with your balacned view. In my opinion? You're a tribunal.

Despite the fact that my weapons and armor are in desperate need of repair, I blow the entire king's reward on Ale and Whores!

Through 4 invoker shields and preps, they still do Mutilates+ with lieutnenats, no amount of prepping will help you there. Not everyone is a defensive spec or an offensive powerhouse - about 90% of the class combos in the game are average joe in those areas, and those get raped - aka non-warrior/shifter.

I dealt with this as a water shifter and still pulled retrivals off.


Have you ever even tried fighting a lieutenant? We're not talking your level 20 guards, I'm talking hero guards or lieutenants. HUGE difference.

Yeah I've fought them, cut my teeth on Farnsworths guards and from there have found it easier to deal with.


And how do you supposed we do that when they have the Fetish? They already sit in town as it is, it's not like the meander away for the hell of it. Your only option is to go straight for the player, who has a huage advantage against you (manacle/guards/otherplayerguards/etc).

Than go for him, hit and run tactics have allways worked well barring parting blow.


Lieutenants and certain guards can go in the woods, so that's void. Not everyone is a prep-whore either, I'm not going to spend 3 hours getting preps so I can heal quickly and run-in/run-out over and over again to get the Fetish, when they can tapdance through the Huntress/Spirit with those super guards.

3 minutes can get you enough cure serious/heal pills scrolls and staves to keep your entire cabal healthy.


Retreiving/raiding as a criminal is a LOT harder than any other cabal war because of the effect of out-of-pk range characters. It doesn't just make others powerful, but it's harmful to you. You can have some piddly-dink healer in Empire healing your enemy, or you can have some piddly-dink healer healing your enemy AND his guards AND using manacles AND using his guards. It's a big difference.

Any different than the out of range divine sect healer granting your entire range black shroud and than trapping you in with cenutrions?


You think it's so easy? I challenge you to roll up an Outlander and when you delete/die, call me out as you clearly have this supreme idea how it is balanced - prove me wrong and walk all over the Tribunal/Spire with your balacned view. In my opinion? You're a tribunal.

I've done this with Sylvans. You obviously where never around for the time of Jamain where a third of the Tribunal cabal could see camo. Want a balanced view, you fight an outlander in the wild you are in their elements, fight a tribunal in the city your in his element. My last tribunal was around a year ago and I've played more Sylvans and Scions than anything else and have allways had to deal with retrieving from Tribunal. And heres some food for thought, out of range sylvans easily killed people retrieving with cabal powers as well.

3 minutes can get you enough cure serious/heal pills scrolls and staves to keep your entire cabal healthy.


OUTLANDERS CANT USE COINS
OUTLANDERS CANT USE COINS
OUTLANDERS CANT USE COINS

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

Seriously it's overpowered.

It is not enough for "enough pills, scrolls and staves to keep the whole cabal healthy"

You can only barter one of each item to the same shoppie.

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

Good point though, proved me wrong.

Just because your wolf gets onerounded by guards does not mean it isn't very powerful. It just isn't very powerful when guards can aim at it (e.g. away from the inner), and not everyone can call guards. Having seen beastcall used very effectively on numerous occasions (given that outside of raids it will usually be on an unprotected enemy), I don't see how you can deny that it is powerful.

I'm not a big fan of guards being allowed to leave town, but I'm not sure you can compare them to beastcall. For example, guards don't track, but beastcall does. They are different powers, both very strong, designed to be used in different ways.

Yes it is lopsided. Who cares?

If you are worried about this being an issue, wait untill come clever imperial starts raiding often, and lining the road to the refuge with centurions while summoners wait inside those cottages. Then you will really be bitching.

The whole point of outlanders is to basically take on the restrictions of battle (not the same restrictions, but of a similar magnitude), and not get deathblow. But hell it is FUN. If Bjai had been a goodie, and thus not theoretically a badass killer, I would not have deleted, and kept on eating all those deaths.

Outlanders kick ass because of the rp leeway, and the sheer coolness of the cabal concept, not because of powers. The best way to deal with guards when retrieving? Be willing to burn con.

-Bjai

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

nt

nt

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

*Guards shouldn't assist unless it's a criminal - period. There's no reason a guard should fight unless they're fighting a criminal - none of this free mercenary stuff when you are attempting to retreive.

Guards shouldn't be interested in getting back the item that... empowers guards and people who help them? I'm not sure how that makes sense.

That said, last I checked, it's far from every Tribunal that can marshall guards for a retrieval, and there are some pretty hefty limitations on their ability to do so -- in the sense that if you're an Outlander and you're halfway clever about it, you should be able to do something about it.

>*Guards shouldn't assist unless it's a criminal - period.
>There's no reason a guard should fight unless they're fighting
>a criminal - none of this free mercenary stuff when you are
>attempting to retreive.
>
>Guards shouldn't be interested in getting back the item
>that... empowers guards and people who help them? I'm not
>sure how that makes sense.

You could say the same thing about animals....it just doesn't fit. Like Tjok said, guards shouldn't be able to leave the city to retreive...they're paid individuals, if you want to get real about it. No Scales = paid vacation

>That said, last I checked, it's far from every Tribunal that
>can marshall guards for a retrieval, and there are some pretty
>hefty limitations on their ability to do so -- in the sense
>that if you're an Outlander and you're halfway clever about
>it, you should be able to do something about it.

If you're talking about the evil-outlander power, it's limited to evil-outlanders obviously and it has this side-effect of getting raped if you mess up (remember, 8 MANGLES a round). If you're talking about their water limitation, can't always steal boats or cancel their flight. Summoning, is rare among outlanders. If it's something else, I don't know.

There's also the fact that guards help against people trying to get their item back, even if you're not a criminal. Guards should only hit criminals - it just makes sense. If you break the law, fine, but if you don't - why assist?

Despite the fact that my weapons and armor are in desperate need of repair, I blow the entire king's reward on Ale and Whores!

>You could say the same thing about animals....it just doesn't
>fit. Like Tjok said, guards shouldn't be able to leave the
>city to retreive...they're paid individuals, if you want to
>get real about it. No Scales = paid vacation

I'm sorry, I just don't agree. I honestly don't even see how that would even potentially make sense to anyone. The Chewbacca Defense makes more sense to me than this line of thought.

It's sort of like saying that if some foreign nation invaded the U.S. Red Dawn style and the government asked local police or FBI to in some way aid in repulsing the invaders, they'd say: "Yeah? #### you. I'm in this for the paycheck, why don't you show me which laws they broke and I'll think about it." In a very real sense, Outlanders and especially Outlanders who have taken the Scales are like meta-criminals. They threaten a guard's very way of life.

>If you're talking about the evil-outlander power, it's limited
>to evil-outlanders obviously and it has this side-effect of
>getting raped if you mess up (remember, 8 MANGLES a round). If
>you're talking about their water limitation, can't always
>steal boats or cancel their flight. Summoning, is rare among
>outlanders. If it's something else, I don't know.

8 MANGLES a round is either an exaggeration or a sign of gross incompetence.

In any case: yes, those would all be methods one could try.

Another would be proactively whipping the Tribunal in question.

I've got a few other ideas. Point is, if what you're saying is: We can't beat Tribunals when they come to raid like this... well, don't let them raid like that, goofball.

"WOLVERINES!"

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

>>If you're talking about the evil-outlander power, it's
>limited
>>to evil-outlanders obviously and it has this side-effect of
>>getting raped if you mess up (remember, 8 MANGLES a round).

>8 MANGLES a round is either an exaggeration or a sign of gross
>incompetence.
>

I think he meant rounds like this. Believe it or not, this is one of my all-time favorite logs. My mouth dropped when I saw Vonyx just get slammed down like this. Hehe.


** Begin Snip **

<708hp 976m 569mv 8624tnl civilized>
Tjok turns his attention to Lemath's lieutenant and glares harshly.
Lemath's lieutenant smirks at Tjok blankly.
Lemath's lieutenant yells 'How dare you try to turn me against the order of this city, Tjok!'

<708hp 976m 569mv 8624tnl civilized>
Zadatak leaves west.
Zadatak has fled!
Lemath's lieutenant yells 'Vonyx is a CRIMINAL! PROTECT THE INNOCENT!!'
The beggar yells 'Why don't I ever get any protection?'
***Through aura, 4 elemental shields, and stone skin.***
Lemath's lieutenant MUTILATES you!
Lemath's lieutenant EVISCERATES you!
Lemath's lieutenant EVISCERATES you!
Lemath's lieutenant EVISCERATES you!
Lemath's lieutenant yells 'Vonyx is a CRIMINAL! PROTECT THE INNOCENT!!'
The beggar yells 'Why don't I ever get any protection?'
Lemath's lieutenant EVISCERATES you!
Lemath's lieutenant EVISCERATES you!
Lemath's lieutenant EVISCERATES you!
Lemath's lieutenant MUTILATES you!
You parry Lemath's lieutenant's slash.
Lemath's lieutenant's slash maims you!
The gods protect you from a sifaka lemur.
The gods protect you from a sifaka lemur.
Lemath's lieutenant's slash maims you!
Lemath's lieutenant's slash maims you!
The gods protect you from a sifaka lemur.
The gods protect you from a sifaka lemur.
Your pound mauls Lemath's lieutenant.
Lemath's lieutenant parries your pound.
Lemath's lieutenant has a few scratches.

<241hp 976m 569mv 8624tnl civilized> c word
You can't get your hands free.

** End Snip **


Hehe. Still makes me chuckle. Ideally, though, you'd (nepenthe) would roll up an Outlander and join the fun -- pass on these balancing tricks

Wish I had it logged, but I saw something very similar but to a warrior with only stoneskin - it's the 8 MANGLES I'm talking about.

Despite the fact that my weapons and armor are in desperate need of repair, I blow the entire king's reward on Ale and Whores!

See my earlier comment re: gross incompetence.

No, I'm not talking about preps.

Gee thanks alot Nep...

P.S. I also tried to subvert their guards to no avail. It's also hard to avoid not entering into any combat with them at all when your wanted and trying to raid. (Yes I know I should have never raided under said circumstances)

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

almost all the mid to higher level Outlanders are deleting out of sheer frustration. Despite everything else said here, about all the ways to deal with Tribunal guards, or that Tribunal is even the problem,or that the tactics are just gross incompetence, if players can't even stomach playing in the cabal unless they are SM lovers, something may have to be changed. I just noticed today that Djesoe deleted out of utter frustration as well. Tjok has been the only trooper to date to stick it out, and I am pretty sure it is due to the fact he can hide himself from 95% of the mud even without cabal powers, which keeps some of the frustration to a level he, as a player, can tolerate. This level of frustration from players does not bode well for a cabal. From what I have heard, the cabal is more difficult to play than Battle, which is saying a lot. This is just an observation from a Heroimm who has always had a keen interest in underdogs, and watches the Outlander situation as much as he can.

Jinroh

You knew me as frumpledunk pretty well (believe I was your first induct once you made commander). Frump was hardly the most powerfull combo possible in battle, but I did much, much better with frump than I did with Bjai.

Part of it stems from the fact that an outlander has almost no excuse to avoid being made wanted. Especially if they have their item, then why would they not be making war on tribbies?

With frump I gave up magic gear, and preps. In return I got ~35% dam redux, a neat ranking power, the ability to get rid of maelidicts, and a really nice healing power when we had the head.

With Bjai I got a great hiding ability, flight when I wasn't in the cities, a very specialized power against tribs and maybe empire (no help when you are trying to retrieve which is when subvert would be the most usefull), +~50-60 hp (strengthen), free food (making up for the inability to buy food) and deadfall, which is pretty cool but not exactly nasty. I had to give up effective use of healers (not as bad as battle has, but when trying to retrieve effectively the sam), non looted flight potions, etc. Now, when I did take the time to prep I did better retrieving (stoneskin/shield) but....

When outlanders have their item, they arent as buff as ragers with their item, but they are pretty nasty. With out their item, outlanders are kind ####ed in a way ragers arent. This is triply true because outlanders really, really should be wanted all the time. Nepenthe can claim something to the contrary if he wants, but where is there rp justification for a midranked outlander to avoid wantedness, and once you are wanted as an outlander in the midranks, good luck getting the fetish back if there is even one hero trib on.

Now, the other thing I am neglecting to mention is that outlanders get stupid sweet immteraction, which battle usually doesnt, and those aechoes are one of the things that kept Bjai going as long as he did, but hell, I played 250 hours on frump, and never felt as powerless as I did with Bjai a good chunk of the time.

I am a pretty average player I think. I don't rock people, I don't get horribly rocked, normally. I kill some, die some. My rp I think is slightly above average. It should say something about the state of the cabal that Sebeok or Lyristeon or who ever had to stoop to a player of my calibre for a leader.

I love the cabal concept, and I am sure I will play another one, but only once I feel my skill level is enough to make up for the lopsidedness of that particular cabal war.

Back to ragers for now it looks like......

-Devin McGhee

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

>Part of it stems from the fact that an outlander has almost no
>excuse to avoid being made wanted. Especially if they have
>their item, then why would they not be making war on
>tribbies?

>item, outlanders are kind ####ed in a way ragers arent. This
>is triply true because outlanders really, really should be
>wanted all the time.

I really disagree. Younger Outlanders, IMHO, shouldn't be anywhere near the cities.

If I was an Outlander leader, I'd make a rule where Outlanders were not allowed to break the Law and possibly not even set foot in a protected city before they're at least level 40.

Why? No, not because I like Tribunals. I'd do it to force Outlanders to stick to the forests.

I delt with 2 types of Outlanders:

1. Wildrunners that spent a lot of time on the northern-eastern roads and ran in and out of Galadon causing chaos and getting wanted/manacled a great deal.

2. Hunters that set snares in entrances to popular forest ranking areas, ambushed ranking groups in forest areas, insect swarmed guys in the past, set snares at that sweet spot near the dark woods, ect.

Which one do you think I was more afraid of? Which one do you think did more damage and closed kills on Imperials and Tribunals?

In the same way that younger tribbys should be sticking to and learning the cities before even *thinking* of going into the woods, I would have younger Outlanders fighting and learning the woods before even *considering* taking the fight onto the enemy's home turf.

With so many good Imperial/Tribby ranking places being in the forests, where you have all those cool cabal powers, why arn't more Outlanders fighting there instead of the cities where you don't get jack?

Some of this I feel may be an erronious mentality, where some Outlanders feel that to be good Outlanders they *must* fight in the cities and get WANTED from the get-go.....where they get cut down because it seems that their powers arn't designed for them to be kicking butt in the cities.

They're supposed to be fighting in the forest.

They get discouraged not because of an imbalance, but because this mentality results in them fighting quite often at a marked disadvantage. This doesn't happen to tribbys because they're FORCED to spend a lot of time on their home turf where they have the advantage.

Tribbys start as Magistrates before they possibly become Vindicators. I think Outlanders would do better if they had the mentality of becomming good Defenders of the Forest before they become Hunters in the Cities.

Think Che' not Genghis Khan.

>With so many good Imperial/Tribby ranking places being in the >forests, where you have all those cool cabal powers, why arn't more >Outlanders fighting there instead of the cities where you don't get >jack?



Because outlanders lose their item all the bloody time.

Would you suggest that young outlanders not retrieve?
When I play a cabaled char, I am going to do everything I can to get the goddamned item back. Are you suggesting something different? If so what is the point then? This right here invalidates the entire thrust of your post, but let me bring up one more point which you are completely confused about.

>2. Hunters that set snares in entrances to popular forest ranking >areas, ambushed ranking groups in forest areas, insect swarmed guys >in the past, set snares at that sweet spot near the dark woods, ect.

All I am going to say is that I would have *loved* to have have had insects. I'm sure the rest of the cabal echoes my sentiments.

It is rare that I find an imm posting something so completely ludicrous on the forums, but with all due respect for the work you do for the mud, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

-Devin

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

You don't understand the cabal concept, that is plain.

Evil outlanders especially get 3 powers SPECIFICALLY designed for causing havoc in the cities. Subvert, ignite and vandalize. What you are suggesting, is like suggesting that low ranked tribbies, a) never retrieve the scales (which they never did anyways because there was only one hero), or more importantly, b) not sit on duty.

For some outlanders, hanging out in the forests and all that is in their role. For most evil outlanders, and a good chunk of the rest, your express purpose is to bring down the cities. Make war on them. Not on the tribunal, not on the empire, but on civilization. The restriction does not say "don't use the laws, and don't take the blood oath". It says don't use coins.

Once again, your post is so amazingly off base that I can't believe you actually wrote it.

Here is closer to what you said.

"I would advocate that battleragers below the 40th rank not be allowed to retrieve the head of the mage from the imperial city or the chasm. Furthermore, they should only fight non prepped warriors, and out of form shifters, because that is where they are at their strongest. Once they hit 40, we will allow them to fight magic".

Perhaps you should use the IMM channel to get an idea of what Theras newest cabal is all about.

-Devin

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

.

All I can think of when I read this is "Boy, this guy sure is full of himself." Alarian posted his opinion on how an Outlander might be played, and it fits within the bounds of the Outlander cabal. Ofcourse there are other ways to do it, as you pointed out evils in particular are geared for causing havoc in towns. Also, if you look at what he wrote, he suggested that Outlanders who hunt Tribs and Imperials in the woods are far more successful then ones that go into the cities. You're free to disagree, ofcourse, but you attached a LOT of barbs to your two posts, and they weren't necessary.

You also said the fact that the Tribs had the fetish a lot invalidated his point that Outlanders should fight in the woods, which doesn't seem to make sense. If the Outlanders kill the Tribs when they came into the woods, how would the Tribs have the fetish?

Try to fight on the ground where you have the biggest advantage, and your enemy has the biggest disadvantage. Tribs have a huge disadvantage trying to raid the Outlander cabal, and Outlanders have a huge disadvantage trying to raid the Tribunal cabal. Just yesterday I watched two hero Tribunals repled from raiding the Outlander cabal against only lowbie opposition, after their special guards were subverted, they both had trepidation called on them, and the inner guardian insect swarmed them. Being hard to raid goes both ways.

Velk

His post got my gander up, so I am sorry for that.

My main issue basically involved this.

His suggestions basically involved young outlanders not worrying about retrieving the fetish, and that is antithetical to my style of play, which is a person decision, I know.

Second of all, there were large factual inaccuricies which I pointed out, and seeing someone with that blue tag next to their forum handle posting misinformation (e.g the nature of the cabal ) really annoyed me.

Sorry about all that.

-Devin

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

I could see the tribunal outlander war working perfectly well if the two cabal items were removed from the game but both cabals kept their powers.

Tribunals because their powers are limited in where they can be used (and I'd restrict special guards outside of the city to fighting criminals only), and outlanders because I see them more as guerilla (sp?) fighters than anything else, and I don't see why this kind of fighter should be forced into prolonged toe to toe combat (where I think tribunals should have the advantage).

So Outlanders try to dictate the time and place of the fights, but tribs have the greater firepower. Personally, I would take being able to choose when and where I fight over higher damage output any day, and it seems to be that most of the outlanders' problems come from not being able to do this. For example, when they try to take the scales, they are forced to stay in one spot for some considerable time. When they try to retrieve whilst wanted, the same. When they defend, they are vulnerable to superior trib numbers. Take the raiding side away, and the whole situation is different. They can simply make hit and run attacks on tribs as tribs try to go about their business, and tribs can try to stop them. Same thing with Empire.

I loved the powers, when I could use them. The whole problem came in trying to retrieve as a midranked char with a penchant for wantedness.

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

I just spent ~120 hours in direct conflict with the guy IC, and he just immed. He seemed a good enough char and all, but it is sort of like when you are working somewhere and a peer/coworker gets promoted over you, and suddenly has managerial control.

Also, the thing about insects made my eyes bug out.



Alarian I lurv you with fuzzy hugs.

-Devin

"New payment options w/ Iron Realms"

>Alarian I lurv you with fuzzy hugs.
>
>-Devin

Now let's stip to the waist and beat drums around a campire, ok?

As for your points:


"His suggestions basically involved young outlanders not worrying about retrieving the fetish, and that is antithetical to my style of play, which is a person decision, I know."


You can retreive without getting WANTED. I'm just saying if *I* was an Outlander, *I* feel I could do more damage snaring/ambushing people in the forests then attacking the cities, especially as a younger one where those WANTED flags really hurt.

Do you think trying to avoid a WANTED flag makes you a bad Outlander? If so, does trying to avoid a WANTED flag make you a bad thief?


"Second of all, there were large factual inaccuricies which I pointed out, and seeing someone with that blue tag next to their forum handle posting misinformation (e.g the nature of the cabal ) really annoyed me."


I admit it, I was wrong and forgot about those evil arson/vandalism powers.

There, you went and made me admit I was wrong, happy? Happy? ARE YAH HAPPY, DO YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT.....um...yeah, ok.

Even then, as an evil Outlander, I'd be doing hit-and-run raids, like a guerilla commando. Doing my dirty work and running like hell before The Man (tm) shows up and trying to avoid wanted flags like the devil untill I could suck them up better the closer I got nto hero.

You're right, I don't know all the details that go into the intended cabal balance here, just offering what I might do differnetly as an outlander, i.e. focusing on the forests until I was strong enough to fight in the cities or hand the numbers to do so successfully.

Might have to try one, once my area gets done...

>Try to fight on the ground where you have the biggest advantage, and >your enemy has the biggest disadvantage. Tribs have a huge disadvantage >trying to raid the Outlander cabal, and Outlanders have a huge >disadvantage trying to raid the Tribunal cabal. Just yesterday I >watched two hero Tribunals repled from raiding the Outlander cabal >against only lowbie opposition, after their special guards were >subverted, they both had trepidation called on them, and the inner >guardian insect swarmed them. Being hard to raid goes both ways.

Thing is, it looks to me like tribunal is always going to have far more numbers than Outlander.

Sitting around, each side sticking to their ground . . . that's not an enjoyable cabal situation. Make it easier for Outlanders to kill tribunals in cities.

Thing is, it looks to me like tribunal is always going to have far more numbers than Outlander.

Last I checked, equal numbers.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Sitting around, each side sticking to their ground . . . that's not an enjoyable cabal situation. Make it easier for Outlanders to kill tribunals in cities.

I didn't suggest that cabal situation, I suggested the use of tactics. Both sides have to leave their territory eventually... although I would venture to say that Tribs are FAR more likely to spend time in the woods then Outlanders are in the cities, so that should be an Outlander advantage right there. I was also getting at the point that it IS balanced, due to the fact that each side has an advantage over the other in their own territory. It's just a question of which side manages it better.

Quite frankly, from what I've seen, it looks like the Outlanders have a bit of an edge over the Tribs right now, so I'm not sure what all the to-do is about. And going along with Valg's post, I have checked the numbers recently, and the cabals have virtually the same number of people in them.

Velk

>Quite frankly, from what I've seen, it looks like the Outlanders have a >bit of an edge over the Tribs right now, so I'm not sure what all the >to-do is about.

I really don't think so.

Outlander success is largely due to the fact that overall outlander has been drawing far better pk'ers.

I think Qaledus and Jinroh hit the nail on the head.

>And going along with Valg's post, I have checked the >numbers recently, >and the cabals have virtually the same number of >people in them.

Alright. What about at hero ranks (my primary area of interest)? Maybe I'm just missing things.

The way it's set up now is for some boring ass cabal war between the Tribs and the Outlanders if it's played like the Imms keep saying it should be. I don't know about the rest of the people here, but sitting in the woods for hours on end hoping for the Tribs to step out is not my idea of a good time and vice versa.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

Why is everyone so hell bent on the idea that Outlander and Tribunal are the pinnacle of each other's war? Last I checked there is an enemy to Thar Eris in EVERY single cabal not to mention the scores of freelance races/classes that are uncaballed that an outlander should be hunting. If people want to be narrow minded and only fight tribs as an Outtie or Outties as a Trib then I imagine the game playing experience for said people would be pretty boring.

Por ejemplo, villagers dont only hunt mages in Scion and Marans dont only hunt evils in the Empire. There are plenty of other places to bring the war besides cities. Who knows, maybe whilst slapping about paladins at the fort the provosts and vindicators go to attack the wanted folk there which might leave a beautiful opening for the others to strike back at the spire.

The only thing is, when I was an Outlander the Tribs had the Fetish like 80% of the time. Pretty hard to not be mortal enemies when they constantly hold your powers.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

>The only thing is, when I was an Outlander the Tribs had the
>Fetish like 80% of the time. Pretty hard to not be mortal
>enemies when they constantly hold your powers.

If you feel crippled without your cabal powers then you will indeed be crippled. I dont think there is a single cabal, except possibly Empire, that forces a group or an individual to make a pile of their own flesh at the foot of an enemies guardian. I realize that the goal of the outlanders it the destruction of the pox that is civilization but I also understand that Outlander, while not a Sylvan, emulates the natural existance of life.

You do not see a single wolf from a pack or the whole pack charging in like possessed animals trying to run down their prey or attack it head on. The wolf pack surrounds the beast and gradually nips away at it causing confusion and pain before going for the jugular.

Tribunals need an enemy. That enemy, most obviously, is Outlander. Law versus Chaos, like Good versus Evil.

If someone has your cabal item, you need to try and take it back.

You really don't have to get all feng-shwai about it.

That which does not kill us,
makes us stronger.

>Tribunals need an enemy. That enemy, most obviously, is
>Outlander. Law versus Chaos, like Good versus Evil.

ok fine

>If someone has your cabal item, you need to try and take it
>back.

I never disagreed with this, I actually encouraged it in a roundabout way. However, you do not need to make attempt after attempt dying over and over again trying to retrieve your item. Fine line between being brave and foolish and all that hullaballoo.

Djesoe deleted?

If you're reading this, you better re-activate, buddy.

>Tjok has been the only trooper to date to
>stick it out, and I am pretty sure it is due to the fact he
>can hide himself from 95% of the mud even without cabal
>powers, which keeps some of the frustration to a level he, as
>a player, can tolerate.


That's possible, but really I think it's the fact that I'm not logged in as much as these quality characters that are deleting (e.g. Bjai, Djesoe). I try to get on every day, but I'm not averaging >4 hours.


>This level of frustration from players
>does not bode well for a cabal. From what I have heard, the
>cabal is more difficult to play than Battle, which is saying a
>lot. This is just an observation from a Heroimm who has always
>had a keen interest in underdogs, and watches the Outlander
>situation as much as he can.
>


The real crappy part to Outlander is the same real crappy part to Empire when it first came in. Do a search for Mazaufat and look at his farewell. There is just this constant swarm of cabal enemies sitting on your cabal item. If you burn through a few preps and take their item, there's a constant influx of out-of-range chars to take it back that you can do virtually nothing about. Moreover, they keep virtually all of their freaking powers -- and a couple of them are able to directly use their powers to regain their cabal item. The only bright side is that the main enemy cabal (Tribunal) isn't particularly proactive - meaning, they're going to sit in their 2% of the MUD space rather than hunt you. The down side is that they're constantly in power - and you don't have the ability to take them down under the circumstances. I'm not sure these are "balancing issues" per se, but it definately appears to encourage defeatism. People can sit here and tell me all day about things I could do differently, but frankly, I don't see anyone doing them.

My point is, it's hard as hell to tell whether the situation is completely balanced vis-a-vis powers because Outlander has never been on top in terms of sheer "cabal health".

That being said, if Outlanders can't subvert guards while they lack the fetish, I don't see why Tribunal can call them while they lack the scales. I'm not sure it's valuable to allow any Imperial to call centurions to the only entrance to the Outlander HQ. Little issues like that I don't think will greatly tip the scales, but they're little things that count.

>See my earlier comment re: gross incompetence.
>
>No, I'm not talking about preps.

Do you have a really high standard for gross incompetance, or am I just, well, grossly incompetent I suppose?

Would you call lack of haste/stoneskin gross incompetance?

I'm guessing that the 8 mangles is on assist or initiation rounds or something, since a mob that actually deals 8 hits around is (for most purposes) unheard of. Edit: If the 8 is from two guards hitting four each then the bit about avoiding assist/initiation is rendered moot.

So here's the things I can think of that will help.

Preps.
Never leaving combat with the guard once engaged.
High defensive ability.
Complete avoidance.
Maladicting the guards.

I wouldn't consider lacking preps gross incompetance, but maybe that's just my own speaking. Good defenses are not something every class hae, the same with maladiction ability. Complete avoidance isn't an option. I suppose you could be grossly incompetant with constantly getting reengaged all the time.

I guess what I'm saying is that gross incompetance implies that it should be completely obvious how to avoid it, and it seems like a several people (including myself) don't see the obviousness. But maybe you're saying that we're all grossly incompetant.

To be fair, my standard for gross incompetence is probably too high.

Some of what you're saying would help, absolutely. You need to be caught without pretty much ALL of it (and more) in play to get schooled that badly.

The idea, the general idea of PK in the game almost, really, is to engineer fights in which your weaknesses are covered or not important, and your strengths are overpowering. If you are, for example, a character who has no inherent damage reduction and can't tank for ####, you might think twice about setting up a fight where guards are going to maul you like that. That might mean getting rid of the guards somehow. That might mean doing something so the Tribunal has to run for it so fast all that damage doesn't matter. That might mean bringing more people to the fight, in the form of a balanced team that works well together and not so much in the pure numbers ganging sense. That might mean setting up a fight where the guards can't do anything (or, depending, anything meaningful) to you. It might mean a lot of things.

See my earlier comment re: gross incompetence.

No, I'm not talking about preps.


I invite you to Bring It. Play an outlander to hero and kick tribby ass all day long. Hell, make it a caster just for kicks.

Maybe all Outlander needs is a few strong pkers to get the ball rolling. They are calling your name Nep

How does the idea of guards not leaving the city not make sense? The healer at ever Cabal HQ charges for supps. Is it because the healer is a greedy bastard for every cabal? Does he not serve the cabal?

No, it is for game balance.

It would make sense for the Inner guardian and healer to run to the aid of the Outer Guardian, I mean, they do hear the call for help less than 10 rooms away.


If guards not leaving the city without scales was better for balance, I think this "Chewbacca Defense" reason would be good enough.

From my perspective, you didn't really cover new ground so I'll
just reiterate that we're looking at it and making adjustments
as time and consensus among the staff allows.

>From my perspective, you didn't really cover new ground so
>I'll
>just reiterate that we're looking at it and making adjustments
>
>as time and consensus among the staff allows.
>


Not a huge balance issue, but I believe Tribunal "leader" types should not be able to use their guards to retrieve. No Scales, no badass mobs that leave town with you.

Can make a little message saying the cityguards refuse to leave their posts until the scales are returned.

To remove any obligation for outlanders to take scales (since it doesn't achieve that much in practice when they do). Just let them conflict with the tribs by making raids on the cities.

Because really, special guards and manacles in town is no substitute for the element of surprise. By that, I meant that knowing a trib is in town enables you to check to see if he's in his guild, and get the jump on him if he isn't. If you get manacled, you teleport and disappear again. If you don't, you press the surprise. I know I got killed in town once or twice by people hitting me before I saw them coming, and I know other tribs died a lot more than that.

The problem seems to come in raid situations where there are out of pk defenders. Without out of pk defenders you could pick tribs off in town as they arrive. Outside of a raid, you should still have a decent chance of accomplishing your objective (kill trib) before the other tribs can help.

Outlanders should fight tribunals. Outlanders should take the cabal item. This is the way it should be.

Give Outlander better combat powers, or tone down tribunal stuff.